Live from the Pathway Studios in Johnston proper. You are live from the path.

Well, you're listening to Live From The Path on livefromthepath.org broadcasting every Monday night from Canada whenever we're out of stuff to talk about. Now the good part is is that usually we're talking about Jesus, and that can go on for a really long time. I agree. And I've been to church services both ways where I'm like, Keep yeah, talking about Jesus. And then some other ones, I'm like, well, I think I got it. That's probably about time to go. Hey. Sorry. I'm back. Okay. Good. I'm back. That was a disaster. I was I was talking, and I couldn't hear myself. You know how important I am to myself.

I was listening from a voice, I was very disappointed. Anyway, Mike's right. You're listening live from the path. Sorry for that opening debacle. Hey. So we were I was thinking this week, Mike. I I feel like we're messing stuff up. Wow. That covers a lot of ground. That's a big deal. I I was I think I think I think this is a conversation we'll be able to get on board with. But I'm trying to think

some of the things how much can I assume that the things that I'm passionate about biblically should be considered normative? Like, what are the variations, especially when it comes to things like the discipleship?

Or how how you disciple people? Like, I get excited about certain things. Right? Like, I wanna meet I meet people in the morning. That's when I do stuff. It's when I'm available. It's when breakfast is relatively cheap. Harris knows what I'm talking about. Like, you you go you go out when I can get a hold of some food for, like, pretty reasonably. Now I I don't think everybody has to go for coffee, but, like, I I have trouble thinking that a lot of that stuff doesn't happen in the context of just folks sitting across from each other and having discussions.

And so but there's a lot of different ways that when the church says, hey, we're gonna make disciples, I I don't know. There's a lot of different things they put in that bucket. And maybe what I was thinking this week was, like, is some of that stuff actually making disciples or do we just call it we we took a blanket word like fellowship and we put some casserole with it and we're like, yeah, we're doing church stuff here. Yeah. And like, it's here's the the Holy Spirit do what he wants, but, like, just brought it through my mind on how much how much I prescribe to people and say, hey, look, man. I this is really what you

this is how I do it. Right? This is how I react to the calls to make disciples. And and then I see the things that other people call discipleship and I'm like, I feel like that's not working. Like it's I don't think it's doing anything. Yeah. So I I need someone to stop me from from going off the rails on what I think doesn't work at all. Well, now,

that that's hard. Right? Because I've seen things work for other people, and I I think there's no way that wouldn't work for me. I can't. I couldn't have pulled it off, and frankly, it sounded cheesy to start. And I'm like, that doesn't work. And then, you know, some fruit came out of it, and I'm like, well, humble to you. Hold on. Let me ask this question. Wait. Hold on. I'm gonna get off on a tangent. Let me let me stop first. So in the studio, Mike's here, Boob is here, and then in the studio is Brett Nicole Ricely, and, they're here. I'm really excited for you guys to meet these folks. I've obviously met them before, but, they just have a really cool story. They have a missionary background and,

are are doing a doing a lot of cool work in Salt Lake City. So, Brett and Nicole are here to kinda share a little bit about, what's going on with them, why Salt Lake City, what makes that a mission a field? I think how that, even though it feels worlds away from some of the lives that we're leaving, living, how how it probably isn't that different and how maybe that mission kind of, extends beyond some of the nuance parts of the world that we that we think are different from what we're up to. Yeah. You can only mission in places where people don't look like you or the culture is completely different. I don't know if you've got that pamphlet from, say, Christianity in general, but, like, you're not allowed to talk to people about Jesus who either look like you, share the same socioeconomic

background, or have any of the lineage, heritage that you've come from. They gotta be completely way different than living a hut. Hey. That's leave the country. Yeah. That's that's why white middle class white guys are in a tailspin. Yeah. Because we we we walked away. We walked away. They're like, everybody needs Jesus, but that guy, he looks just like me. Here's the deal. Every

fly and goof I've met in the last ten years has been a white middle class white guy. Like, that's that's what it's been. Okay. That yeah. That's no. Mike's right. That pamphlet led me astray. Yeah. See, and here's the thing is I used to really come down on missionary pamphlets, but I'm like, this one speaks truth. Yeah. Alright. Before we ruin the show, let's get to know Brett just a little bit. So tell tell everybody a little bit about yourself,

kind of your your background in, I don't know, three minutes or less, and then how you ended up in Salt Lake City. Alright. Great. Thanks for having me on the show, guys. It's good to be here with you guys. I was born and raised in a small town in Nebraska called McCook. Probably none of you have ever heard of it. Small town Southwest Nebraska. I went to Bible College at Nebraska, Christian College where I met my wonderful wife who's sitting here with me at got married, went through Bible College, felt like God wanted me to go into full time ministry, wanted us to go into full time ministry. We got married in 2008. Did full time ministry, in Omaha, Nebraska for

three or four years. And in that time, we took a couple of trips to Salt Lake City. And, actually, it's interesting as we're looking required us to go on mission trips. And the list was like, you know, India, Africa, North Korea, you name it, and then it was like Salt Lake City. And I was like, what is this doing here? One of these things doesn't belong. And we had never been to Salt Lake City. We she was raised in Iowa. I was raised in Nebraska. We'd never really gone anywhere else. Didn't have any concept or any clue really of what mission a field inside The United States would even look like. And so we said, well, let's go to Salt Lake City. It's the cheapest one and it's in The United States. We won't mess with all that passport stuff. And so we did that and God just broke our hearts for Salt Lake City. It's one of the most religious

states in the entire country, yet it's an unreached people group. And so we went there for a week at a time, two years in a row, actually three years in a row, and God just continued to burden us with how much Christian work was not there and how much religion was there and the huge difference between following Jesus and religion. And we long story short, we ended up with an organization that brought us out to Utah. We did campus ministry for a couple of years. And in that time, God led us from that to changing our missionary assignment from campus ministry at the University of Utah, to church planting, to starting new churches in a place where Utah is less than 3% evangelical

Christian. And so, missiologists, which is a fancy term for people who study missions all over the world, say that anything less than 3% of evangelical Christian population is technically an unreached people group. And so that blew our minds and it continued to this day to be a place that's heavy on our hearts because of that fact. There's just not many Christians there. And so that's kind of the the brief snippet of of where we are now and how we kinda got there. And another short snippet is, you know, we God has taught us a lot in that time too from growing up in the Midwest to now living in the West. And things are very different, but like you said, Ben, there's a lot of timeless principles

about living the Christian life that will apply in any place, in any country, in any part of the globe. So that's kinda my my short snippet. So tell me a little bit more about, Salt Lake City and the fact that it's, we'd otherwise consider it unreached. But what are some of the unique circumstances, surrounding that area that you're facing? So

this is probably not gonna be a shock to anybody, but Utah is highly Mormon or LDS, Latter day Saints. They prefer to be called LDS today. 70% of the entire state of Utah is LDS. The rest of it kind of taglines to be about 28% atheist, agnostic or the nones category.

They don't really associate themselves with any particular belief category. And so that leaves less than 3%, almost 2% Christian. And so that's one of the unique factors. But along with that, as much as it's LDS, we live in Salt Lake City, which is the capital.

And in the midst of that, even there's pockets in the city where Salt Lake City downtown, the metro, all the you know, it's up and coming businesses. It's very urbanized. It's very growing. You know, that's actually very secular, which is interesting. And so not every part of Utah is what a lot of people stare type or think that it might be. It's actually very secular. There's a lot of bars. There's a lot of you know, the LGBTQ community. There's a lot of that that is there that it's that makes it a very interesting undercurrent to the very high religious

overtones that are there as well. So it's a very unique place where when we go out there and we talk about our faith and when we talk about the church that I work for called Redeeming Life Church, we say, hey, we're Christians. Are you are you a person of faith? They say, oh, I'm a Christian too. I'm a Mormon. And we have to battle that controversy or that misconception because we don't believe Christians and Mormons are in the same category for a lot of various tangible tangible subjects. But and then if we talk to secular people that don't have any background in church at all, then the church, un church, whatever you wanna call them or whatever they are,

we say Christian, they say, oh, cool. So you're a Mormon. So both both categories are super confused about who we are. And apparently who Mormons are. Correct. Exactly. And so there's a lot of confusion. On the bright side, that's an easy instant open door for me to say, here's why we're different. Here are the distinctives. And so there's a lot of different dynamics playing on there playing out there in Salt Lake City, on top of just a big city, a lot of religion, a lot of people that really hate,

the religiosity of Utah. They really despise. They really, are very harsh and very just, standoffish. I'm trying to get all the right words, but they just don't like it, you know. And so they push back to anything that smells Mormon, they're out. Well, actually, so I was gonna ask you that question. Do do you think that, like, the highly religious culture has has caused a lot of that? Has has caused a lot of the the the undercurrents that you're talking about? Yeah. I think so. I mean, anytime there's kind of a a oppressive may not be the right word, but anytime there's a dominant prevailing theme in religion, and especially in Utah being I mean, it was pioneer. The Mormons pioneered out west to Utah. They landed in Salt Lake City. Brigham Young was the guy that led that that pioneering movement. And they set up shop there. And so from the beginning of Utah being a state, it was always Mormon. And so over the years, it's become less and less Mormon. And so in some ways, the the Mormons feel like they're losing their city. They're losing their

they're losing their holy city, if you will. And at the same time, when others come in that aren't Mormon, they're saying, man, this is way too Mormon. We gotta we gotta battle this thing because it's not fair that it's so Mormon. We gotta we gotta have our rights. Gotta We have our coffee shops. We gotta have our bars and our clubs and our this and that. So there's kind of this this this, sometimes very obvious and sometimes very blatant oppression or, not oppression. That sounds right. A blatant, what's the word I'm looking for? A clashing of of beliefs. You know, it's a very open dialogue of we don't like you and we don't like you and we both are okay to say that out loud. There is some of that. And so I definitely think that plays into it. I mean, everyone's looking for equal equal rights, equal opportunities to do things, to be who they are, to express who they are. We live in America. And so obviously, that is something important to everybody. And so a lot of people feel like Utah is oppressive in terms of, you know, a lot of Mormons sit in the the government and all that kind of thing from the top down. And so it's it's always a topic of conversation whenever there's any kind of election or there's anything that's going on politically.

It's always charged with a religious undertone. And so that that just runs ramping all the time. But you know what's interesting is I, as I was listening to you talk about that, it seems like that's probably true in most cases. It just seems like it's more transparent there. Correct. Right. Like, in in a lot of in a lot of The United States, there is an undertone to how people take in information, the things that they're concerned about, the things that they're thinking about. But, like, we're just not honest about it. We're not Yeah. We were we're not very forthcoming with this is what actually I'm concerned about about your religion, about your political view, whatever. Where there I I mean, it seems at least you're talking about stuff out in the open. Right? Like, you're talking about this is actually what I'm concerned about. This is what I don't like.

And it seems like it it does put you in an interesting position to have conversations. If people are being honest, you can at least start talking about distinctions. Whereas, if you're in a situation where people are dishonest or not transparent, I I know you put yourself at a bit of disadvantage trying to even drag stuff like that out of them. Yeah. That's a great point. I mean, that's and that's definitely one of the advantages I would say to living in Salt Lake City is I can go into a coffee shop. You know, I have a tattoo. I walk in and say, hey, you know, strike up a conversation, comes around, I say, are you a person of faith? And they say whatever they say. And that question we found to be really helpful because if we say, are you a Christian? They can immediately say no. And that's a closed ended question. See, I I think that's what, like, in general, most people are scared to death of.

Conversation? It's just having the conversation. And this is me. I'm in this boat. You know what I'm saying? Like, if if I like, the the person of faith thing, maybe that's a a Midwest thing, but, like, people would just flat out not answer that question. You know I'm saying? Are you a person of faith? Yeah. That's none of your business. Okay. Well, it was good talking to you. I'm gonna drink my devil coffee. Excuse me. It's

like they seemed and and and even that rejection would be enough to be like, oh, my balloon's deflated. I guess my discipleship slash evangelical bet today is gone. I'll I'll try again tomorrow, you know, when I give it another shot. And like Right. Just even having that conversation with people you know or people you don't know, I think just flat out scares people to death. Yep. So it like, is it is it something that you think that God has just built you for? Or is there like, is there any tips you can give people who are bad at this? I'm asking for a friend. Man. Yeah. Okay. Well, tell your friend.

We'll call him handsome Mike. Okay. Handsome man. Handsome Mike. Okay. Well, handsome Mike, this one goes out to you, man. Honestly, I mean, if I'm being honest, two years ago, and and my wife can attest to this. Todd and Deb could probably attest to this. People that know me, that knew me before I moved to Salt Lake City. I was in your shoes. I was in the boat of honestly, I was scared to talk to people. I was scared to have those kind of conversations. I wasn't the guy that was real bold in my witness or in my looking for conversations. I wasn't intentional in any of that stuff. And the conviction that God brought to me was Romans one sixteen, which most of us might know what that is. Those of us that don't, it's it's it's Paul saying in Romans, it says, for I am not ashamed of the gospel for it is the power of God to save the Jew. Anyone who believes, first the Jew and then the Greek. And so anyone that believes, it's the power of the gospel itself that does the saving. And

what what I was convicted of from that verse is that I was ashamed of the gospel. And as a Christian, I grew up in a Christian home. I grew in a Christian church. I've been churched my entire life. And that was hard that was a hard pill for me to swallow that I was actually when I really the root of my heart was I really don't wanna tell people about Jesus because I don't wanna be rejected. I don't want people to to not think I'm cool or not think I'm mature or respectable or you name it. So the insecurity in me was I don't I don't wanna be I wanna be liked. I don't like confrontation actually. And so that was the root for me that God revealed about my heart, that I was actually more concerned with what people thought of me than what I think God thought of me.

And in that, I wrestled really with why am I so ashamed and and and in the process of all this as I started working with Brian Katherman, who's the lead pastor at Redeeming Life Church. He was very bold in his witness and he brought me along with him and he was discipling me, still is to this day mentoring, coaching, discipling, all these things and modeling for me what it looks like to live a normal life in everyday places and to be intentional with those everyday things for the sake of the kingdom. And he really stretched me. He would say, hey, there's some people walking over there. Let's just go chat with them. And I'm like, oh, I'm gonna go sit in the car. Yeah. I mean, I was I'm not joking. And he's probably listening to this laughing because he remembers that moment. Or we go to a restaurant and he put a gospel track down on the table and I would just almost wanna crawl under the table and hide. Because if I knew if somebody saw that, I was gonna be embarrassed thinking, oh, they're gonna think we're just crazy Christian people and and all this kind of stuff. Or even worse, he would say he would ask the waitress how he could how we could pray for him, right then and there on the spot, and I wanted to crawl under the table. That's who I was two years ago because I was so unashamed. I was so ashamed honestly of the gospel itself and and and the power that it has to convict people. Now so today, God's done a lot of work in my heart where now, can confidently say, I feel ashamed when I miss opportunities.

I feel ashamed when I miss those opportunities knowing now because I I I've been trying to grow on that. And there's days that I miss opportunities. I'm not perfect. I am not special. I'm not a super spiritual person. I do think, Ben, that this is an issue that applies to every Christian. I think if you're a disciple of Jesus, Jesus gave the great commission to every disciple and he said, want you to go and I want you to make disciples as you're going in the everyday stuff of life and teach people about Jesus. And as the gospel does the hard work, convicting, convincing, bringing about belief, all these things, our job is to walk with people in that and point them to the to Jesus. And so, honestly, there's just a lot of self examination is where it started and realizing that I knew what the Bible said, but I was actually not living what the Bible said. And I was I was ashamed of the gospel because I because of my own insecurities and not wanting to be

controversial. And I wanna be liked. I mean, I I like to be liked. I like people. And so for me, I had to get over my own personal insecurities of not being liked or not being accepted because ultimately, at the end of the day, Jesus being lifted high and the gospel being proclaimed has to be more important than my

reputation on earth. And so that for me was my issue. And I think we all probably have a different angle on this issue of of why don't we do these things. But I think another piece of it might be that we read stories in the Bible and we see these great guys like Paul and and Stephen and Acts. And we we read the book of Acts and we're like, this is amazing stuff, man. Those guys were super, super Christian people. And I think it's a terrible tragedy if we read it and we and that's the they'll take away from that story because they're normal dudes. Nowhere in the story do you say do you see that God said these were special awesome people that had special awesome amazing lives that that were doing things that no one else can do. We don't see that. That's not the truth of the gospel. Elijah was a man just like us and those kinds of things and look what he did for God. So the bigger thing for me is is obedience.

You know, are we willing to be obedient when we hear the voice from God? Are we already set in our ways saying, even if I hear from him, I'm not gonna do that. And that was me. And so that's a long answer to your question, but I think there's a there's a lot of layers in that issue of why don't we do this, you know. We were talking about that a couple weeks ago actually about like somewhere along the line, we've convinced ourselves that people don't wanna hear good news. I agree. When inherently Yep. Good news is good news. People people wanna hear it. It's already been it's been mentioned. It's good. And actually, can I I wanna chime in on that too because Luke ten two says, the the harvest is plentiful, but the laborers are few? And it hit me one day in the same time that I was processing the same stuff. The harvest is plentiful, meaning people that need to know and believe the gospel, people that will be saved, God that is is whatever your theological background is, there will there are people that God has prepared to bring to salvation. We don't know who they are. It's not our job to save them, but the harvest he said is plentiful. And in the gospel of John, he said, lift up your eyes and see that the fields are ripe for harvest. The issue is not the harvest. The issue is not enough laborers willing to go and reap the harvest. And that blew my mind when I when I had that distinction that we we sit in here and I I agree with you, man. We say, oh, you know, we live in such a secular day. I don't want no one wants to hear this anymore.

But the timeless truth of God's word says it is. It says there's plenty of people that wanna know. The issue is not, are there people that wanna hear? Are there people that are gonna get saved? That's not the issue. The issue is there's not enough Christians willing to be obedient enough to open their mouth and say something. And that started with me first. So don't hear any condemnation from me because it it that was my issue. But I think that's a that's a huge distinction. No. I agree. I I think we spend a lot of time even even as as as Christians, going, hey, the world sucks. And the right answer is get a rake. Right. Right? Like, God created the rake. He knows how the how the the field works. Yeah. And and, yeah, we have this

my my that's right. We have this implicit thing that says that people don't want good news. And and frankly, I I think from our being disengaged in that arena Mhmm. We we also don't think it just doesn't have power. Right? Like like, if we really believe that the gospel is what changes people, like, has the power to transform lives, and we we obviously know people whose lives could use a little transformation. Yeah. And we simply don't believe that it will do it. Yep. Right? Because if the thing is that it doesn't even make sense from a rational perspective, the thing that is is at risk versus the thing that you are to gain, you would always share the gospel. Right? This is what the thing you would always say. Because of if you if we love people the way that we claim to love people, we want the best.

I it's just we wouldn't deny them the gospel. Right? But, like, the only reason I wouldn't go share something like that is because I don't actually believe, a, that they that is good news to them, and b, that it would does actually do what it does. Yep. And, like, when when those things are missing, okay, then I understand our hesitancy. But because, like, our the nature of nature of being scared, it just simply doesn't make any sense if you know Jesus. Yeah. The the nature of people, yes, someone will reject it. It doesn't mean that it's good. Like, it's a crazy person that rejects good news like that. Right. And so I have to be like, well, but pray for the crazy guy. He's not taking in stuff. Right? Yeah. Right? So, obviously, that, wording probably could have chose it differently. But, like, in general, what I'm saying is that, like, we I think I think we just we miss a lot of it because we don't I'm hesitant that we actually believe that it does anything. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean,

it makes a lot of sense. I mean, our our church's tagline, if you will, when every church has one mission statement or whatever you wanna call it, is love God, love people, make disciples, multiply churches. And we chose that intentionally in a linear thought progression because if you don't love God, which is the first and greatest commandment Jesus said in Matthew 22, if you don't love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, you can't obey the second which Jesus said is just like it, which is love your neighbor as yourself. Right? And then the verse right after that in Matthew twenty two forty

says, and on the all the law and all the prophets hang on these two commandments. So everything in our Christian life that Jesus says, have to boil all this stuff down, you know, all the commands, all the things that everything's everyone's ever said, it all boils down to love God and love people. But here's what we discover. You can't love people if you don't love God because it all comes out of the overflow. Right? Jesus said in John fifteen five that that he's the true vine and and apart from him, we can do nothing. So if we're not abiding in Christ, if we're not spending daily time doing personal intake of God's word, prayer, fasting, personal worship, whatever those spiritual disciplines are for us, if we don't do that, there is nothing to overflow into the world. There's no cup that overflows into the world, into our neighbors, into our coworkers, into our schools, into our spouses, into our kids. There is no overflow there for people. And so if you love God, you will naturally, out of the overflow, love people. And as you are obedient to Christ and continuing that process, I believe you'll naturally

want and desire and will make disciples. And the natural result of if you make disciples, we are the church, right, the people of the church. So if you make disciples, then churches multiply. And so that's why we chose that that tagline when we started the church is because we believe that everything starts with do you actually love God? And we could go on a whole another tangent on that too, but I I think it all boils down to ultimately, if we, like you said, Ben, if we really believe this stuff, if we actually read the Bible and actually believe it, then we'll say something. And it it'll radically change our lives. If we really, to the core of who we are, really believe it, not just in our head,

but in our heart. And if the if it trickles down from the from our head to our heart and transforms our soul from the inside out and the holy spirit is the only one that can do that work, If that happens, then I believe out of our hands comes the truth of going. So head, heart, and hands, a cheesy, you know, thing. But I think it's I think it's applicable to the conversation. It starts with our head. Right thinking leads to right living. And I think if we don't read our Bibles, we have no idea how we're supposed to live. And if we read our Bible every day, we got the Holy Spirit speaks through his word. He promises that it never return void. All these things just kinda started coming together for me when I was processing this. Why don't I do this stuff? I grew up in church. I mean, I've been to hundreds and hundreds of church services, and I've done nothing about the great commission in my own life. And and that's a sad place to be, but by God's grace, he he he snapped me out of what my my bad rut was in that and kinda helped me see how the pieces work together. So I mean, that's that's kind of a rut that I I think is is not just common, you know, on a personal level, but it's common on a on a church as an organization level. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? This is how we end up with with more religion than we do Jesus. Correct. It's because we're you know, it doesn't go love God, overflow, love people, serve both of them. You know what I'm Like, it get because then then when the love God isn't there, then we try to program it, you know, with setting things up and motivating people in groups and then Yeah. Making t shirts. Right. Yeah. Here's here's what it looks like to love people. And, like, that's the

that's working with the hands before Yeah. You love God or love people. Right? So, like, this is what it looks like to act in the way that we want you to act. And then if you act that way, like we and get frustrated because then people don't react to the way that we want them to. Right? Yeah. Hey. I've been serving in this way forever, and I'm not passionate about it. And I'm not really doing anything besides the stuff you tell me to do. Well, like, cart before horse. Right? Like, we we handed out the the heart to head, heart, hands pencil, and they sharpened it too far. And now they're just you know, they don't do the hands at all. I think it's they're very shallow. Yeah. Yeah. And Exactly. I I think that's that's actually what we're it's some of the stuff that we go through in my organization was the youth group. But anyway, like, we talk about this when we do when they talk about service projects. Like, everybody be pushing you and pushing. Like, you gotta get them kids out doing service projects and do this and that. And I said, look, when they decide they wanna serve somewhere, I'll go help them. Mhmm. But, you know, I'm gonna come up with an idea for them. If they love homeless people, they can go they can go start doing it, and then I'll come down there with them. But, like, I I feel like it it it has to go just like you're saying in that order. When they love God, they're the the things that God has laid on their heart and the stuff the holy spirit's moving them to do, they will do on their own. We don't need to put together a feed the homeless committee. Right? You'll find out that Brett has been down there feeding the homeless for two years all by himself without a t shirt and without a van. He just goes down there in his '97 Honda and starts dishing out food because that's what he does. That's right. Without a van. That's just silly. I know. That '97 Honda ain't no homeless people. That's right. Come on, Britney. You're stuck together. Well, if anyone's looking to donate a van, know what to send one. No. That that that's that's true. I think we we need to to, we've gotten real good at

setting up the right parameters of which to act, but it's not necessarily secured with the right, I don't know, with the the right overflow. Just, I guess, to You know what looking at though when you set that stuff up though? You take all the crazy out of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. You understand? Like, when you let the Holy Spirit do what the Holy Spirit does, he do crazy things. Mhmm. You end up doing all kinds of stuff you had no idea you were gonna do or was even interested in. Yeah. But, like, when you say, look, we just feed home homeless people. Look, we just fix up houses for the older people that come to our church. Look, we just do missions to to Kenya. These are the things that we do. And and, like, when you set those boxes up, you've pretty much robbed the holy Spirit of all. It's his amazing ability to do some crazy things that you weren't set up for, but he's completely equipped you for Right. To do. And, like, some of that's, like, like, some of it an all shucks kind of thing. I wish we would have got it. But, like, some of those things is exactly what you're talking about. When you wanna see if the gospel is effective and you wanna see the actual work that God does here on earth, and then we we we we shut it all down, like, we're just not even willing to see its greatness. Like, that's too much. We can't take it if it's gonna be that much. We can only take it if it's gonna be served in in this bite sized area that I can present as as palatable to other people. Like, very much like your like your tattoo. You know I'm saying? Or people would people would say, look, religion, tattoo, not palatable. That doesn't make any sense to me. I can't I can't put it together as being a complete package. Yep. Some part of you is a lie. You know? That's just a I don't that's just a I don't know Jesus thing. Hey, man. Like, isn't it the root of most of people's interactions with Jesus in the New Testament largely stems from a, hey, this is not believable. Yes. Like like, I've met a man, and he said something that is not believable. Yep. He's done something that is not believable, and then that needs to get resolved some way or other, and it resolves with the truth of who Jesus is. And so, like like, when we are when we explicitly live in the realm of, oh, no. Yeah. That's believable.

Like, you lose the what was it? The the mystery that comes with a god walking on earth dying and resurrecting. Right. And and, like, when you when when that is gone, and we are just a a consistent moral pass around,

There is no more mystery than there is to to a Gandhi or some other moral type character who says, hey. I think I've got life down. There's a there's a million guys with a million books who've got that market cornered. Right. But what what we have, the thing that people truly need is Jesus Christ, and that is that is a mystery that is that is shown through a faithful life. And and you're right. Like, we box if we box it in too much, and say this is how people have to act or, like, we we or you puppet them and say, this is this is how it is to be faithful without actually knowing, loving, serving the God of which of whom you are being faithful to. Yep. You introduce them to a a shallow moral system, which is easy to dismiss and move on to the next guy who's got a sweet book cover. True. And it feels like a cage when it's all said and done. Yep. And you don't even love the cage. You know what I'm saying? When you let Jesus set up the fences and set up that Mhmm. That area of where you want to be, you love those things. You say, this is where I wanna be. Thank you for helping me set up my parameters. But like when you when you force it on people and you've had, say, Steve set up the fences for you, you just end up hating Steve. Yeah. Right. Poor guy. Yeah. Poor guy. And one one other side tangent to that even too is is the goal isn't even to do homeless ministry. Right. The goal of a Christian life is to know God. So love him with all your heart, soul, mind, and soul, and strength. And so I think about Jesus in Matthew 17 when all these people came to him and said, hey, Jesus. Hey. We healed people. Hey. We cast out demons. We do we did all these things in your name. And what does Jesus say to him? I never even knew you. Depart from me, you evil and wicked people. So the goal is not

be successful by starting new things and doing a new ministry, although that's fantastic, and that is good. Once again, it's not about, do this or that. It's a matter of priority order. Yeah. It's a source. Right? Jesus comes first. And if if you're loving God and if you're loving Jesus, you'll naturally produce the works, if you will, or the the service, which in whatever way you're called to do that. And so when we disciple guys,

they were some of them are always asking me, what do I do, Brett? And I say, you know what? I don't know. What is God telling you to do? I'm not the holy spirit as a as a pastor. The holy spirit is the holy spirit. And so my job is not to tell guys what to do. My my job is to tell guys to get in the word, hear from the lord, do what he says. And then my job as a pastor is Ephesians four is equip to equip those saints to do the work of ministry. However, the spirit is leading them to do it and to say, that sounds like a great idea, man. You go for it. How can I help you succeed at that after you've heard from the Lord and he told you to do that thing? Yeah. Yeah. Like, I don't know how we could look at at the the sheer depth and richness of people and the world that God has created and expect that Christianity is a cookie cutter function. Right? That we can look out and say, these these all all the people are supposed to look the same and do the same types of things. When when notice Paul didn't even extend farther than follow me as I follow Christ. Right? Like, that's that's still pretty much a one on one interaction. And then here's the deal. The guy that if I'm following Jesus and I'm trying to take a dude with me, as he takes another dude with him, that's gonna be a different relationship than me and the other guy I'm taking. Yeah. And the thing is is, like, I think we have this impression that that that we we kinda dump I I don't wanna say responsibility because that's not the right word I want, but it is

the the actual walking miles. Right? The the daily steps following Jesus, and we dump it onto a to a broad church institution or broad church community identity. And although for salvation reasons, I think there's there's things you can talk about there. Right? But, like, you're Yeah. You have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. He's has has means that he is calling you to be faithful in that will produce whatever ends he desires and that will otherwise bring you joy and fulfillment in the world. And I think we kind of beef on those as if they those can be stamped out and that a holy spirit, which is delivered personally,

and living as as part of your life, and we're like, well, you'll get what's what's Todd doing? Maybe maybe maybe I'll just see what Todd's up to. As if it's just it's just crazy how unique and in and, and distinct God has made people, and then how easily we're willing to give that identity and relationship away because we're simply like, I have no idea what to do. Right. And, like, it's such a weird it's such a weird thing that we have such large numbers of profession Christianity. And, again, this is this is me probably last five years. Within the last five years, and I'm like, I really am not sure what I'm supposed to be doing.

Maybe someone could just tell me what to do, and I'll be obedient to that. And it was a lot easier to do that, but then it didn't didn't feel like God was doing anything. They didn't, you know, you couldn't I don't notice the movement. The Holy Spirit seems like a really foreign character. Would you've otherwise taken the taken the advice on Steve on exactly what it is that you're supposed to do with your life, and and and locked out the possibility that God could actually be calling you to something. Right. And and it's it's it's not to say that you obviously can't do things as groups. Right? But the the point is to say Right. Like, it's such a it's such a dynamic thing for you to follow Jesus and take people with you. And and I think we've we've kinda passed all that and and live a bit of a pale existence that eliminates

mystery. And you think to yourself, like, Christianity is so much richer than that. Supposed to be. Exactly. And then no wonder we've we don't know what to say to a guy. We don't know what to say to a guy because we're standing in the we're praying before we leave the house saying, I don't know. Maybe break down the car or something. Why should I follow Jesus? Well, there's a men's breakfast. Do you like breakfast? You know I'm saying? Like, like, can we can we offer a living and active holy spirit? You know what I'm saying? Can we can we offer something something great opposed to, well, you might swear less.

You know what I'm saying? Like, that's not the goal. No. That's not the goal. We can do better than that. Yeah. The goal is not behavior modification. The goal is transformation. Correct. And that only comes with time in the word, time with the holy spirit changing your heart from the inside out. And the other thing, like I like you guys were saying is, like, so much of my life was never compelling to any lost people. And I hope and pray that every Christian's life is compelling to lost people. Because we if we have the source of all of all joy, all peace, all hope, all purpose, all identity, which is Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ alone, if we have the source and the answers to those things through him,

wouldn't shouldn't our lives be compelling to people? Shouldn't they look at us and say, man, your marriage is amazing. How is it amazing? And we could say, well, it's because of my relationship with Jesus Christ. Or your your your life doing whatever it is that you're doing at your job or in your school, like, there's something different about you. What is that? I really hope and pray that every Christian's life, they can look back and say, what's Jesus Christ in me? The problem is if we aren't cultivating the intimacy with God that we're called to, there is no Jesus coming out of us to be compelling. Yeah. It really is that simple. We've made this too hard.

Really simple. It really is that simple. And it sounds too simple. It almost sounds like, well, that's too simple. Tell me the rest. But I I mean Yeah. I mean, we we share the rest. I mean, there's nuances. No doubt. Yeah. Absolutely. The the grand scheme, yeah. Follow God and and it will outpour on your life. And you, sir, get to sit and be a spectator on the way that your living God interacts with his with his creation. And it is an amazing thing to see when you're willing to let him do it. Absolutely. Yeah. That was it's it's it's one of the thing I think you can't we can't miss,

which is that a lot of things that we, I think, instructually as, as pastors or or or leaders in the church, the things that we tell people to do, we have to recognize that they're like, that that is, that's not the measure that actually solves the issue. Right? Like, if you have to say, hey, you need to stop a guy on the street and pray for him. You need to be grabbing one of your friends and do an x y or z. Like, communicating how to do that is and and and equipping them on how to do those things is significantly different than saying, look, you need to obey what we're saying and just do these things. You know what I'm saying? Like, because it it does not it does not produce what we actually think it produces. Right. It's it's a facade. Frankly, just like a lot of the stuff that we fight for in what we think is the semblance of a of a Christian culture in The United States, and we're like, hey, if we could just make people act the way we want them to, then at least feel a little bit better. And like Right. I'd almost rather embrace the lack of facade here and just say, let's at least call things for what they are and deal with things as they sit.

And and we're a bit disingenuous, I think, when we say, hey, look, you just need to do x y and z and and and just just like Brett was saying, like, it's it it changes. It modifies your behavior, which then masks the state of your heart. And, like, I really just like to know whether you're walking close to Jesus, and if you aren't, let's kinda bring that. Yeah. Let's talk about walking closer to Jesus and what that what that looks like in your life and what that means. And if you're seeking Jesus, you don't know where to find it, how to do such a thing. Absolutely. And, like, if we could do that, I feel like, you're right. We we we don't need to be somebody else's Holy Spirit. There's the Holy Spirit's kinda got these things covered. So, like, a lot of the things that we've judged that we've judged on, hey, I need to be,

someone needs to go talk to Steve. And Steve is is a troublemaker of the church, apparently. He does everything right. Man, that poor guy is He's a fence builder. He's a pornographer. He's he's just the worst man ever. So yeah. So I think to myself, hey, man. Steve's a a rampant pornographer. We need to go slap him around a little bit. But then, like, the right reaction is Steve hates Jesus. Like, so for whatever's going on, Steve is not listening. He's he's not walking closer to Jesus, so it seems things seem to seem alright to Steve that probably alright. And then if if I orient it correctly as opposed to saying, boy, Steve just sucks, But maybe I think maybe I say to myself, hey, man. I would probably be prone to things like that if I started walking away from Jesus in one way or another. Mhmm. Okay. So let's pray on that. Let's go hook up with Steve. Let's remind him of who Jesus is and that Jesus didn't go anywhere. And like again, if you reorient Jesus as part of our conversations with people, some of the problems that we're trying to solve at church, like, no one wants to serve. No one wants to give. No one wants to blah blah blah. Those are Jesus' issues. Those aren't church obedience problems. They're not like, we didn't communicate rules well. They're not, we didn't give you the right outfit to put on. It is simply like, give because Jesus says to do things, and I feel like he would he would know that I'm prone to worshiping money, and I should direct my money to somebody who needs it because he's got work to do with the money. And so I think to myself, fine. Resource of the kingdom. Do what you gotta do. It's a gospel issue. Yeah. Absolutely.

Yeah. And we have to keep pointing people back to the gospel. I think even reminding them, look, if your issue is pornography, okay, that sucks. Let's let's acknowledge that. But he'll let's also say that that that that all of us have an issue. Right? And so even as we disciple people, we walk with people, even as a pastor and I equip people, I have to be quick to say, I have serious gospel issues too, man. Yeah. That we all have a deep rooted. We all have a sin issue. No one in the room doesn't have a sin issue. If anyone raises their hand and says, don't have a sin issue, well, that person's sin issue is lying. Right? And so we all have to be acknowledging that and say, we all have issues. The the answer to every issue is the gospel. So the question is, how are you entrenching your life in the gospel to work through that issue rather than making some people feel worse about their issue than others? You know? And so I'm I'm with you, man. We have to keep pointing people back to Jesus who said, look, my yoke is easy. My burden is light. Come to me. I will give you rest. Learn from me. You know, learn from me, Jesus says. So any issue that we have, it come it all goes back to Jesus. It all is a gospel issue. And so, I'm with you, It's man. It's all about the gospel. And it kinda makes you think, like, how often have as people have you met people or talked to folks and, like, they're presenting, hey. Well, here's kind of my problem, or here's this here's what's going on in my life. And, like, is it realistically going through your mind to say, hey, I hear what you're saying. I've got some good news for you. Yep. Right? Like, you know I'm saying? Like, sometimes our reaction is, hey, I'm really struggling with this. Oh, like, oh, that's that's too bad. You really gotta pull that together, and, let's pray let's pray on that, and Yeah. You maybe get some software. Right? And like here's it's not that it's not any of those options are bad options. Right? But like Right. Can I look a brother in the face when he goes, hey, I've I've been having problems looking at porn, and I can I can look him in the eyes and smile and say, I have got some good news for you? Right? Like Absolutely. Jesus can help with this type of thing. He's exactly the types of things he roots out.

Walk closer to him and you'll just inherently walk farther away from the things that you're struggling with. And isn't that part of our job as Christians is to make sure we know how to communicate to people how the gospel is actually good news for them. Yeah. You know? And that's that's another piece of of my story that I just never grasp or even and I'm still feel like I'm learning how to do that. How do I hear someone's story in a coffee shop of of abandonment or whatever issues there may be? And I can I can hopefully try to to say to them, you know, the gospel answers that abandonment issue? You know, Galatians five talks about you being adopted. If you're a believer in Christ, that you'll be adopted as a son or a daughter of the king. Like, that's that's amazing. But that's how the gospel actually becomes good news to people. If we can't even articulate how the gospel is good news in our own life, there's no way we can communicate that to other people. So so that that does seem to be a gap though. Like, do you how do you bridge that gap of don't know, Christians not being able to even speak to it? Short simple answer, we don't know our Bibles.

Right on. I I I don't mean to be overly simplistic, but I mean, the Bible's pretty clear on massive things like like justification and adoption, redemption, all these type of gospel things that, almost every life story has brokenness. Right? We all have it. And the gospel speaks to those things. And the only answer out of any brokenness is Jesus. One super simple,

this is kind of a slight tangent on evangelism, but one super simple tool if people are looking to try to articulate this to people is called the three circles life conversation guide. And it's just a it's kind of like a new school way of sharing the Romans road with people, but it addresses the brokenness thing. And we all have brokenness and just draw draws three circles from, you know, God's design, and then there's brokenness, and then there's the gospel. And Jesus is the answer for what that brokenness has what we've all gotten into. But I think at the end of the day, on if we're all being honest, I don't think we all read our Bible enough to actually know those gospel themes of justification, redemption, adoption. Those kinds of things. We don't know them enough. We haven't we haven't internalized them enough. And and therefore, what do we say to people?

Go to church? That's a good answer. But I think one of better answers is, well, here's what the Bible says about this. That's right. Now you can you I'd love for you to come with me to my church and let's do this together. I wanna walk with you in this. But at the end of the day, the truth of God's word is what transforms people's lives. Now he can use many instruments in that church, worship, people, bible study, sermons, prayer, you name it. So the the goal is not here's the only thing. The goal is use all these methods, but at the end of the day, it's the truth of God's word that that redeems and and changes people's lives through the holy spirit's power. And so I I think I think our biblical illiteracy as Christians is plaguing our ability to

minister to people in our family, in our neighborhood, in our in our workplace because we don't know the answer. And we don't know the answer because we haven't put in the hard work to have a personal daily intake of God's word ourself, ask ourselves what the principles are from that word, apply that principle to our life, and let it change us first. I think I think that's a a simple first step is be in the word every day, looking for ways that that God's word is wanting to transform you. And as you experience that, who better to talk about that transformation than a person that's been transformed already? Yeah. And I think it

lends itself a little bit to some of the stuff we were talking about earlier is, like, some of our gap in not engaging in scripture is, again, if we don't believe that it actually does anything Yeah. If you don't believe that it changes anything, that it isn't isn't here to and I don't I don't mean, like, some kind of ridiculous, like, change your hairstyle or like, may give you money. I'm well, I'm saying, like, the truth of the living God simply alters your life. It's just the nature of what it is. As you take it in, you start seeing the world differently, and let's go with more honestly and clearly and understanding your relationship to within yourself, to other people, with the God,

would you know, like, all this stuff just starts to become clearer. And so, you know, if we don't believe it actually does that and we're not engaging in scripture in that way, then why would I offer it to someone as a platitude? Like, might as well just give them a fortune cookie. Right. And so if I don't if I don't look at scripture that way, I can't be surprised that, like, something that, carries so much power, doesn't actually do anything because I don't I don't believe it. I don't believe it. I don't react to it. It doesn't, it doesn't change me. That that's when we we talked a little bit earlier about our, our knowing God or, or loving him. Right? But, like, our reaction, our understanding of of faith is generally a shallow one, as if it doesn't impact what it is that we do. Yep. And which otherwise would reveal that, like, we don't understand the nature of what belief is either. And so, like, as we take in scripture and we get real good at our, our desk calendar and,

the the daily devotional that they email to us, which God bless them. It's not like they gets bad things. Right? But, like, the truth is it doesn't sit within the context of, of God's story of which we can communicate to somebody else because we simply we engage it as as if probably on the level of a fortune cookie. Mhmm. This this is good information. If it comes up today, maybe I'll be able to to spout it off to someone. But, like, David lived with the Psalms. Right? Like Right. He was not just a guy who's like, hey, man. Something to give you a pick me up when you're feeling bad. It's like Yep. People were after him, and he's like, I seek the Lord. Yeah. And so, it it it it all kind of falls into this, like, are we engaging with reality of who Jesus is and what scripture provides, and and and saying, yeah, this this is it. This this does actually change everything. Absolutely. And then we can't I I suppose if if we have a gap on that personally, we can't be surprised that we're not, like, leading the way and bringing people to Jesus because, like, it's not a it's not a compelling story which a bunch of pale folks who don't believe it to begin with.

That's difficult. Yep. So so sharing this thing out and about, like, in the streets or whatnot, how does the how does the ministry run? Is it part of is it part of the church outreach, or is it is it part of, like, a a missionary campaign of some kind? Yeah. The our street evangelism stuff? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that was basically a couple of guys from the church. So in Salt Lake City, where we're planting the church is kind of in on the West Side Of Salt Lake City. It's it's one of the lower income, higher crime rate areas, and there's a few over there on the West Side. And so one of the streets is called North Temple, and it runs all the way East to West. And on East Side is where literally the Salt Lake City Temple sits, which is it's beautiful.

The grounds are well kept. There's it's a hub of business. But then as soon as you cross I-fifteen on the West Side of that, North Temple becomes literally, just prostitution, drug dealing. There's pimps, crime, violence, homelessness,

the intense poverty, all that kind of it just it like, black and white, it just immediately changes. And so our church is on the West Side. And so one of the natural places that we wanted to start trying to to make an impact in our community and bless our city was on North Temple. So we literally go out about once a week with a few guys, one or two or three or four, just depends on the week. And And our desire was to bless people. Our desire wasn't to start a ministry. Our desire wasn't to do something, crazy new or evolutionary. Our goal was how can we be a blessing to our our city in a way that other people take notice of and how can we plant and water seeds of the gospel, right? Paul talks about there's people that plant seeds and water seeds, but only God makes them grow. And so we said, well, there's a

place that's actually low hanging fruit actually, where you where like kinda like we talked about at the beginning is on the North Temple, you can see sin very easily. You can walk down the street and see a prostitute getting a guy's car. You can walk behind the McDonald's on North Temple on a dumpster, and you can see that a guy putting a needle in his arm and walk away. You can you can see that and it's open. They don't do anything to hide it. And so for us, it's almost low hanging fruit of this is an obvious way that we can try and bless our community. So we go up and down the streets. We hand out gospel tracks, which here in the Midwest, I don't know what people's thoughts are on tracks, but my my idea coming out to Salt Lake City was, well, those aren't gonna work. Yes. That's just another I've always had a very positive thought about it. That is not true. We've been pretty harsh on tracks, actually. Yeah. We have. Changed my mind. Well, here's the deal. I mean and I used to be harsh on them too when I lived here. And then I went to the West in Salt Lake City where they've probably never ever seen a track because it's always been Mormon, and anyone that's ever come in has been secular non Christians. So as Christians,

we are the minority. And if we do tracks there, people have never seen them. People eagerly take them and say, what is this? And they open it and they flip it open. They read it. They take it with them and we explain it to them. And almost nine out of 10 people on the street take them home with them every night. You gotta be kidding me. And but here's the deal. Bigger and then, obviously, context context plays a part. But for me, I think bigger than that, the the the heart issue with tracks or any method or any methodology in any evangelistic practice is this. Do we really believe that God could do what God wants to do or not? Because with a track, he could use that to save someone's soul or he could not. That's his choice. That's his prerogative.

I don't know what he's gonna do. I don't know why he will or will not do that. Same thing with if I stay on the street corner of the megaphone, he could or could not use that. Same thing if I I posted something on Facebook and somebody reads that he could or could not use that. I think the hard issue for that is do we actually believe God is sovereign enough to use whatever means he wants to to save people however he wants to? That seems tricky. I mean, he could use an empty bottle of Snapple. You know what I'm saying? I mean, like, in all in all purposes, like, I could just chuck bottles of Snapple out my window and be like And hit dudes with it? The the lord does as he pleases. And so that's that's true. But, like Yeah. Yeah. I'm it's also but but I I think just

Sorry. That was a tangent. But No. No. That's okay. Because I think it's it's interesting because I think one of the things that it it this comes up from time to time here, but, like, I've never run into somebody in the Midwest who gives out any type of literature that does it in a way that has any heart to it at all. Right? Like, it's just literally. It's almost always like, hey, I just put something on your I just dropped something onto your windshield and walked away. And the truth is, yeah, God could do something with that, but, like, that there's no there's no evangelism or discipleship anywhere in the biblical record that looks like that at all. So, like, I mean, I I understand what you're saying. I just it just seems it seems difficult absence of, I I don't know, any type of relationship with anybody in that circumstance. Now it's different to me if you're talking to somebody

and sharing it with them and, like, they have a chance to interact with somebody, but, like, I have never run into somebody in the Midwest that isn't doing where they're just, like, dumping stuff. And they don't even wanna be interrupted. By night with, like, John the Baptist on a bicycle. And you're like, what is this? They're like, are you ready for justification? And and I'm like, what does that even mean? John the Baptist is on a bicycle, and you're asking me about justification. I know the Lord, and I'm confused by this pamphlet. Yeah. Yeah. Tricky. No. I I mean, I think I I understand what you're getting at. It's just I mean, here's the deal. Like, you can have a all kinds of guys who aren't doing jack nothing, but they're like, hey. God could save by this Snapple bottle. That's why I chuck them out the window.

It seems less likely than the track. The Holy Spirit. I'm just saying, he does what he wants. Don't put them in a box, Mike. Well yeah. Throw that bottle. Snapple. Right. I think the key to that is is definitely I mean, like, when we're on the streets and we're handing them out, we're literally having a conversation, and we actually say, hey. You know, we cross paths. I mean, we just say, hey. Can we give you this? Yes. That's way different to me. Is way different. And most people say, yeah. Sure. What is it? We explain. Well, this is a gospel track. This is what we're saying. This is what we're out here doing as a church. And then we immediately say and and before we even explain the whole track, I say, we're a church and we're out here on the streets praying for people. How can I pray for you right now? They and some people say whatever they say. I've had guys say, you know, I actually just got diagnosed with with kidney cancer yesterday. And I said, wow. That's serious, man. And I said, do you know where you're going if you die? I mean, it just it sounds cliche, but I'm telling you, these are real people. And I don't know what God's gonna do with that, but I I think the bigger issue for me has been, am I willing to be faithful in that moment to do whatever I can to tell the guy what I believe is the truth that he needs to know? Now once I tell him the truth,

he makes the choice of whether he rejects that truth or he accepts that truth. Truth. My job is not to convince people. I'm I mean, my theology says I'm not the person out here saving souls. God's doing that work. And so we we say, how can I pray for you? We pray for people right there on the spot by name. And then if they stick around and don't go running away screaming thinking we're crazy, then we say, hey, man. Are you a person of faith? Okay. And then we get into this conversation about spiritual things. And we say, you know, if you are or if if you, if you wanna know more, here's this track. Here's here's what this says, and here's why we believe it. And, honestly, if you wanna know more, like, we're in this community. We are two blocks away in that building at 11:00 on Sunday mornings. We wanna walk with you through this, not just give you a piece of paper and say have a good life. Yeah. We wanna walk with you in that. And and and that, you know, is just one of many ways that I think evangelism can happen. I think there's hundreds of ways that you can do that. But Sure. That's just that's kind of the one of the things that we do on street ministry. Yeah.

I'm gonna speak for the father-in-law here. And I I think, you know, when you talk about the track thing, and I think it goes back to what Salt Lake City is. And when you visit this place, it's a beautiful place to to look at, to visit,

sits in a valley, mountains surround it's just a beautiful place Yeah. That God created. Let's not forget that. Yeah. God created this. But when you walk around in Salt Lake City or in that valley, you can feel the darkness. Mhmm.

There is a spirit there that is not of God. And so that's why a track may have more power than it does in Des Moines, Iowa. But the fact is the things that he does, I think we've got to look for ways to do this in Des Moines, Iowa

to where have we ever offered to pray for our waitress. Mhmm. I mean, just those are practical things. Yeah. Doesn't matter if you're Salt Lake City or Des Moines.

You know? But, you know, the track thing, I just think it it probably it probably does work there. Yeah. Because it's it's a total

different feel. Mhmm. But then we've gotta find ways in our lives where you work, where I work. What's God gonna use

that may not be a track? But what's he gonna use to open up that door? Well, here's here's what I love about this. Right? It's because I I mean, it's been no secret that I I just just waylay these tracks. Right? Mostly because they do the fly by night thing and not the we're gonna pray for you and talk to you thing, you know. But, like, it is it is never endingly humble for me when the Lord says I can't think of how many times that I've said, now is not the right moment. Right. It's this is this the cheesiest time? It doesn't even seem honest right now. Like, it seems phony and, like, jerk Christian to go, hey. You know, do you know where you're going when you die? You know I'm saying? Do you how many times I've talked myself out of saying something about the good news of Jesus Christ? Mhmm. Because that's the thought in my head, and I think this and I I I gotta do I gotta do something else. You know, we'll we'll we'll wait a while, and then it'll be the right time. And then it just flat out turns out to be never the right time. Right. And it never happened. Right. And so, like, it it is it's it's something very strong and very palpable

to say, like, tracks are nothing better than an opportunity. Just like your, hey, what's your name is nothing better than an opportunity. Right? And and where sometimes I think people

waste the opportunity by putting by saying the tract is the good news. Well, the good news when really what it is is an invitation and an opportunity for me to talk to you. And learn more about Jesus. Exactly. Exactly. And like it's it's all I think all we're really talking about is how it's done. I think Todd makes an excellent point. Yeah. Is we're just we're looking for opportunities to open a conversation, and maybe that does work in Salt Lake City, and maybe it don't work in Des Moines. But, like, it it does when you're standing outside of Casey's with a guy out of the gas station, and he walking in and you walking out, and you say, hey, brother. You know what I'm saying? That's an opportunity. And I've talked myself out of Yep. A million of those. Yep. And some of the best advice that I've ever been given on this topic of evangelism because, literally, I mean, I grew up in the Midwest. So I literally probably had the same viewpoint that you did on tracks before I lived in Salt Lake City. Yeah. But one of the best advices I was given by some guy was he said, look. There's many methods of evangelism. Why don't you try them all in your context and see which ones work better? Yeah. But I I really think the hard issue is at the end of day, if we're being honest, myself included, we don't wanna do it. We we're really like we said, I've talked myself out of those moments a lot. We're really we're really not that interested in doing that for a variety of probably different reasons, but try try different methods. Try different ways. Find what works for you in the way that God has wired you to deliver the good news. A lot of it I mean, my wife doesn't do a lot of tracks where she works, but the way that she's wired, she has really deep one on one relationships with other women. She gets to know them. She gets to know their story. And over a a period of time, she begins throwing in pieces of her story and the gospel and and things that we're doing at Redeeming Life Church. And and and that's her way of being a missionary to be sent wherever God has placed her in her workplace to be a missionary for the sake of the gospel. Sure. She's I don't think she's ever left the track there, have you? No. Now and once again, so it's not about the method. It's about the obedience. And so I think in any context that the big takeaway is do something.

Figure out what works. Try some things. Try it with a couple people. Pray about it. Go try some stuff. And if it doesn't work, great. Try something else. Yeah, boo. Yeah. So is it sinful for me to make fun of the tracks, though? Like, we had to boil it down to a black and white kind of thing. I don't know if I'm qualified to answer that question. That sounds like a nope. It really is eye opening. And like I said, it really is humbling because it it it's it's basically a blanket that says, here, Mike. Here's what you think you know about the way that I work. Here's what you think that you know about staging

Yeah. Conversations to be had about me and my kingdom. Right? And and and, like, if there's anything you take away from all that stuff, it's it's it's basically like it's it's putting the holy spirit in a box and saying, I'm not gonna have that conversation because it's not the right time to have that. Well, maybe is. Yep. I think it comes down to love God and act. Mhmm. Whatever that looks like. Yep. You you just gotta act. I mean, we've all had those those times where

whether for me it's been a student, whether it's been a staff member where I work, anything. Oh, man. I just missed that. Yeah. And we just have to act

and and just be obedient in that fact. Yeah. What's the worst thing? You're gonna look like a fool? You a fool anyway. Exactly. You started out a fool. Exactly. You know what I'm saying? You haven't changed anything. The Lord has promoted you out a fool. Yeah. It's okay to sit on our couch every once in a while. It's fine. Just gotta get out of that room. Said. If they hated me, they're definitely gonna hate you. Yeah. Yeah. So we might as well embrace it and and just go for it. Yeah. You know? And that's kinda where I've gotten to. And they're I'm not gonna lie to you and pretend like I don't get scared. There's days that I literally I literally say, I'm not gonna talk to that guy. That's too intimidating, God. I mean, so we're all human in this, but I think that's that's the thing is is do we care more about what people think or what God thinks? I mean, they said that in acts two when they were gonna about to they put they put Peter and John in prison multiple times. And they said, look, guys, we can't stop talking about this Jesus. Here's why. Because we we know and we saw Christ resurrected. We cannot shut up about that. And I would rather please God than please you people that don't believe in this God. Correct. You know, and I think that's part of it too. They were that's why the church was growing like crazy. That's why they turned the world upside down. It wasn't because they were special guys. They had a gospel that was bold, and they were they were unashamed to to talk about it. So I just think that's for us. We just have to be obedient to find that method and and try something. And that's what we tell people in Salt Lake. If Street ministry for us is not the goal. The the goal is do something. Practice personal evangelism. However you feel wired to do that, we, as pastors, exist to equip you to do that to the best of your ability. So if that's street ministry, great. If that's leaving a track, great. If that's we've got a guy honestly in Salt Lake City that loves sharing his testimony. He shares his story all the time. He shares it on Facebook almost every week, and it it creates a massive dialogue on his Facebook comments. He God uses that. People come and check out our church because of him. I mean, there are many ways that it can be done. I think the the important thing is not to get stuck in any box and just say, what is the holy spirit telling you to do, Mike, Ben, Todd, Brett? What what is he telling you to do? And then are we gonna be obedient enough to say, I'm gonna go do that? Yeah. Right. Because there's something going on,

of which of which the light of Jesus needs to shine, and can we be confident that God's got a guy regardless of the circumstance? Yep. It doesn't mean that, you don't have to be every guy. You just have to be faithful to what God has you do, and just assume God's got it covered somewhere else. He's got plenty of dudes. Yep. He can he can get this thing under control. And I think I think that's that's kind of where our where our barrier is is, like, I I know that and this is why we keep always land on this from the show, which is, like, just be faithful in the means and let God handle the ends. And you don't need to steal somebody else's means, and you don't need to pray for different means. Just whatever means he's provided to you, just be faithful in them, and the yoke will be the yoke will be light, and the burn will be easy. And, like, just if you're faithful in those things, it will do the what the gospel has always done. Mhmm. And and there's no there's no reason to be to have fear or trepidation or feel like you're not there's not a doing it right. There's just doing it. There's there's obedience in what God has you doing and watching it happen. And I think some of what we do is, like, we're always afraid that, hey, I'm not gonna say the right thing. I'm not gonna do the right thing. Or maybe if I can just get them and kinda toss them into the church mechanism, someone will preach at them and then we can get them into a group somewhere. And, like, we kinda disassociate our our own ability or calling to actually influence people's lives, to follow Jesus and take people with us. Yeah. And, like, when you dump that into a into a group of people, no one ends up doing it. And then we we don't understand why no one's following Jesus around here.

And and it's because, like, I I think the personal the personal reaction to following Jesus is I can't help but wanna take somebody with me. Yep. I look around and say, this is great. Maybe that guy will come with me. Yep. Maybe that guy will come with me. And so, like, I you know, I've had conversations with people and they're like, you know, I just don't feel like doing any of this stuff. And I thought maybe, you know, maybe I'll get them and let them talk to the pastors here or maybe come talk to you. And I thought, like, I'm not worried about your evangelism. Like, I feel like we need to reintroduce you to Jesus.

Because because really, the question isn't whether you think you know him, but, like, if you're walking miles behind Jesus Christ, I feel like you just can't help but be like, hey, man. This is awesome. Yeah. Maybe someone will cut, like, I want Chuck to know. I want Steve to know. I want Laura to know. That's Steve. No. Well, Steve, no. He definitely remember, he's a pornography. He's unsavable. So, you know, so, like, and and that's one of those things is, like, our, as opposed to looking, hey, am I good or bad at evangelism? I generally will look and say, hey, am I following Jesus closely? Right. Like, am I because if he is is I follow Jesus, I do the things he did, he just naturally took folk along. Mhmm. And so, like, I I I'm more likely to look at, like, there's there's ways from an equipping standpoint, methods to do these types of things that fit people's personalities or, like, the way God has created you. Right? But, like,

a lot of it is when I feel like I'm not taking somebody with me, it's generally because I'm kinda wandering away myself. And kinda you're like, I'm not I'm not staying, I'm not reading because I want to. I might read because I feel like I have to, but I'm not reading because I want to. I'm not really talking to Jesus, or I'm just floating stuff up there like, yeah, you know, I don't wanna go a day because that brings guilt if I don't say anything today. Right? And so, like, if I'm not actually engaging in my relationship with Jesus, I don't really care to take anybody with me because it doesn't feel like any anything worth taking someone in from. Mhmm. But there's an obedience in that that says, if I if I follow Jesus, I wanna take people with me, and then that just happens. Yep. I feel like I feel like Brett makes a solid point on this daily bible reading thing and getting immersed in the Lord's word when people are like, I might say the wrong thing. If you look at some of the pillars, we'll we'll call them of our faith. Yep. They said things like, we should build tents. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yep. And that's my sister, not my wife. You know I'm saying? That is Abraham. Yeah. I mean, these there's if if you want solid examples of what you look like, you should go ahead and read that Bible because there's a there's a list of fools in there Absolutely. That are redeemed by the Lord and do great things Yeah. Despite their hair brained schemes. Absolutely. Right. Jesus, he's not looking. He's so far ahead. Let's talk about who's the greatest.

Yeah. Should I bring down the fire? Yeah. Should I bring down the fire? You you might overstepped a little, boys. I'm gonna need you to sit down. Yeah. You need just just calm down a little bit here. Maybe you didn't hear the whole sermon. Man.

Yeah. Yeah. So I it so let's say that the let's say that people are notoriously bad at the street evangelism. They just wanna help you to do it. Is there a way that they can do that? Absolutely. Because almost everybody can pray. Yeah. Right? And so even I mean, we have guys that are not naturally I mean, I'm extroverted. I'm not naturally some guys are not naturally wired to just go up to complete strangers, especially like drug drug guys, pimps, prostitutes, homeless guys. That can be intimidating, and it's still slightly scary for me too. But we do ask them, why don't you come alongside me? One kinda be overwatch and kinda watch what's going on because we deal with prostitution. There's sometimes, you know, there's pimps that are watching us, and there's gang things that are going on. So we, one, you can kinda watch and make sure things are going on that we're safe. And second, you can pray the whole time as we're prayer walking up and down the street. You can start praying that God redeems this part of the city by the power of the gospel. You can pray against the evil in this place. Anybody that knows how to speak English or any language for that matter can pray. And they can do that from the comfort of their home. They don't even have to be on the streets. So if they wanna come walk the streets and see and smell what we see and smell, they they can do that and pray with us, and they can be kind of oversight in Overwatch too. And so we try and involve people in any level. I mean, we we we like to provide a low threshold to some of those things so that anybody can walk in and join us in that. And then along the way, we train and disciple and equip and try and and find people's area where they're better at those certain things. But, we believe a lot in the power of prayer. And so even if people don't come out, we say, hey. We're going out tonight. Why don't you stay at home and pray for us? Absolutely. Because we believe that's just as important. And so, yeah, there's I mean, that's one of the in my mind, that's the first layer of evangelism.

If you know lost people, pray for them. If you can't even pray for people, why would you ever go talk to somebody? I don't know who said it. Some smart wise guy said, you know, before you talk to people about God, talk to God about people. And so spend time praying for lost people before you actually go and do things. So I have a prayer journal that I have hundreds of names of every lost person I've ever met, waitresses, coffee baristas, you name it. There's hundreds of people. And so every couple days, maybe I'll go through and pray for five, six, seven of those people. And I may be the only person praying for that lost person. I don't know. But once again, that's just another faithful thing that I try to do. And so once again, we just encourage people, get on board with doing evangelism at the very basic layer. Pray. Pray for lost people. And if you can tell people that you're a Christian, when you have a lunch with them or people say, what did you do this weekend? You can say, well, I went to church. And that's a seed. You know, you don't have to go into some massive theological discussion necessarily. You can say, I'm a Christian, went to church. It's great. How was your weekend? I mean, it doesn't have to be anything major. I think part of his evangelism training is just teaching people to be normal Right. And not be weird about it. Not You know? I mean, don't be a goofball. I mean, just be yourself. I mean, if you're a Christian and you went to church, tell them that. You don't have to be weird about it. You know? And so that's a sorry. I kinda got off your your question, but anybody can hurt you. Always talking about me. And I don't I don't I think I like it, but I can't tell. Just be yourself, but don't be weird. I'm like, well, what Just don't be weird. How can I what do we want me to do? Don't make it awkward. Right?

I I guess that's the thing is, like, the reason that even that we're even prone to acting like that is because, again, we're we're kind of prescribing how people are gonna react to the things that we're doing. Like, the only reason I couch what I did this weekend is I'm like, what do they think about what I did this weekend? As opposed to, hey. What'd do this weekend? I did the following. Right? And, like and just have them kinda react how they're gonna react. Right. Again, just just let just let whatever god's doing, do it. Yeah. Don't psych yourself out. Just be you. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. You don't have here's the deal. Don't don't put a don't put a bible on your desk at work unless you go read it. And if then if you read in that bible, awesome. Like, that's the thing is, like, if I I could pass 10 guys and eight guys got it out there because that's as bold as they thought they could ever be, but they ain't reading it anyway. I'd rather but the but the guy that that's actually, like, has it on his desk because he'd be reading it all the time, and someone's like, hey, man. What's with the bible? He's like, actually, I picked up something sweet today. Check this out. Exactly. Like, just do what it is that you're doing. The facade's not helping anybody, you included. You get faithful in the means. Let God handle the ends of that stuff. Yep. Alright.

So but you you are still, you do require support to stay out on the, stay out on the on the field there doing the work. So if you to to, displaythegospel.com. Do they have to put in your name or anything? Nope. That's just that's our personal website. That's your joint. Okay. That's my joint. That's right. Brett at wait. Do you have a do you have a personalized email at [email protected]? It's not that. It's brett, brett,@redeeminglifeutah.org

if people wanna contact me through that. There's also a contact form on the website at display the gospel dot com too. They can find all sorts of ways to connect with us, monthly newsletter about what we're doing in our ministry, all sorts of blogs, resources, sermons I've preached, all sorts of stuff they can find on there. Okay. Sweet. Yeah. Go so, head up displaythegospel.com. You just stay up to date with what, Brett and his wife are doing. Lots lots of good stuff. He's also, you can find him on Facebook, and, he's always got pretty good updates out there. And I can't wait. Can you do you own the domain, though? Can you hook me up with a bin at displaythegospel.com? Probably. I don't know if I know how to do that, but I would also like [email protected].

Yeah. I have it as well. We can talk after the show. I mean, we could do it now if you want. Yeah. Yeah. I would agree. Let's I feel like this is worth settling directly. Alright. Here. I'm live. Faithful in the means, Ricely. Do you own the domain or not? I do. Alright then. We got we got time to dole out one bit of advice for somebody?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We get time. Okay. Ready? Dear life from the path. I am an older woman who has been dating a very nice man for approximately seven months. Mhmm. I'm fashionable and take pride in my appearance. While my friend is clean and neat, he wears a baseball cap with all of his clothes, even his dress suits. I bought him a nice cap once and he was offended, so I returned it to the store. Since he is good in so many ways, should I ignore this one quirk? I'd love to see him without the baseball cap when we go out.

No. Yeah. Wait. Is it over? Yeah. That's it. Yeah. Part ways directly. Yeah. It's not gonna work out. How could you even be with a man? Yeah. I mean, that's way. That cap wear is certain disaster. What the heck? Yeah. I mean, even when you go out, I mean, come on.

Mean, the cap is designed to guard against weather. Yeah? I just know as soon as I leave my house, my cap goes off, and I start combing my hair for the good of everybody. And so, like, you couldn't find me with a baseball cap in public for nothing. I don't I don't understand people. No. Yeah. You're gonna have to let this go. And I Frank, you should tell him this is a hang up of yours and be honest about it so he knows what he's getting into with this relationship. I think that's fair.

I should yeah. Like, I like, I think she should be honest. Oh, wait. I didn't I didn't catch her. Are they just friends or they like They're they're dating. They're dating. Okay. So I would say, you need to be real honest with him and say it like, this is a real hang up for me. It really bothers me that you wear this hat so that he can logically go, yeah. We just need to kinda call this thing. I I can't get to I don't wanna keep moving forward in this relationship knowing that even if you agree to not say anything, in your heart, you are stewing against my baseball cap. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. And this is maybe just a broad marriage question for people who've been married a long time. Right? But, like, if she says she's an older woman, I'm guessing she's older.

And so I'm guessing the man that she's dating is older as well. I have the feeling when I get to be, say, 55 or 60, I will look however I want because I no longer have any care in the world of what anyone thinks about me. You know what I'm saying? If it's suspenders, plaid shorts, and a and a and a bro tank, that's what I'm wearing because I'm not out to impress nobody. I live my life. We're done now. You know? I'll look like how I want. And so, like, is is is she really just completely out of touch to look at this guy who's lived his life and go, you can't wear this ball cap no more? I feel like he's gonna say, look. I I really enjoy your company, but this is me. I wear ball caps. I mean or is there a concession for him to be made and say, look, if you love this woman, you're gonna have to do the comb over until you at least get back to your house? I I don't know. A ball cap's a pretty important thing in a fella's life. Like, it would mean a lot to me. You think boo boo, you think I should say my my woman says, hey. No more caps. I should be like, yes, dear. It sounds like you both are being stubborn about the situation. The dude says, hey. No. I refuse to take this ball cap off. Yeah. And the gal goes, I'm a fashionista, and that ball cap offends me. You both need to come to each other and go, hey. I wanna keep this ball cap, and I want you to get rid of that ball cap and deal with it as adults. I don't like 60. I don't wanna have to negotiate my ball cap time with people. You're in a relationship. You are not under the understanding that you are going to have to negotiate from time to time, you are a fool. Yeah. But I'm still under, say, the thirty year marriage mark where I think that we're negotiating when really I'm gonna lose Yeah. For the next day. And that's fine. But I'm hoping at the thirty year mark, I'll like, but I'm wearing this ball cap.

Anybody know if this is how it happens? Well, let me tell you. Here we go. My wife's listening of thirty three years almost. I'm taking the ball cap off. Nice.

Alright. Todd Gordon's going forward, though. No. Listen, dude. You're losing the ball cap. And there you have it, folks. I feel I guess he here here's what I'm saying. First of all, I I feel like I couldn't stay in a relationship with the self proclaimed fashionista. Now hold on. She did not claim that. Boova said she could. She said I am fashionable. Well, that's yeah. That's It's it's basically the same statement. I don't know. One one's an adjective, and the other one's just what she's calling herself. Yeah. So get confused by your big words. Okay. Continue. So yeah. So so I guess what I'm saying is, if it really much,

I feel like me and this lady aren't gonna get along long term. Right? Like, if something like that Are you kidding me? Yeah. Okay. Yep. That's me being honest in a relationship. It's like, if this if that's like a if that's a stake in the ground, like, and it's not just, like, I actually have a hat on most of the time. Every once in while, my wife would say, hey, don't wear that hat out tonight. I'm like, fine. I'll do whatever you want because you're you're my woman, I'll and do what you wanna do. That sounds great. Right? But she wouldn't do that most of the time because this is what I prefer to wear. And so, like but if it's someone that says, hey. Look. I just don't want you to wear that ball cap at all. I'd be like, that's you just this is not gonna work out. You you put you put the stake in the ground on the wrong stuff, and I it could be it could be other things. That's not gonna work out. Like like peanut butter choice and what we do on weekends, and I feel like I just this is I can't I have life's too short. Okay. Todd says, take off the hat, Ben says, we're done here.

Secular's advice is, have you tried asking him why he does this? Your friend may wear baseball caps with every outfit. I'm sure he does not call him outfits. Because he's bald or has thinning hair and is self conscious about it. Many men are. Big secret to the man world. If this gentleman has only one quirk that bothers you, you might be wise to consider that his attire is a reflection only on himself and not on you. Do you think that's the worry? That people will think, dating a man that constantly wears a ball cap, you'll be labeled all throughout society. Again, again, set of friends like this that she retains as close friends that are, like, looking at going, yeah. But that guy has a ball cap on all the time. And I think, so this is not gonna work out. It's just not gonna work out.

Okay. Let's do one more. Then we okay. Dear life from the path. I have worked as an armed guard for the last two years. Mhmm. Since the beginning, whenever people find out what I do for a living, one of their first comments is, wouldn't it be funny if you got robbed? What? That's just brutal. You sound like street evangelists. I know. Wait a minute. What now? I'm sorry.

I know these people are being facetious, but it bothers me. I don't think they would find it funny if I were to joke about shooting them. Oh, man. Holy cats. What the heck? That's his response? Is there a polite way to discourage this, or should I just grin, bear it, and chuckle? Well, you maybe shouldn't bring up shooting them. Yeah. That's not a good way to make friends. Good place to start. Wait. Wait a minute. So what's the they're saying exactly? The so he's an armed guard, and they say, wouldn't it be funny if you got robbed? Wow. Why wouldn't I do why wouldn't I just say, no. It would not be funny. What are your extended thoughts? Yeah. I like that. Why would that be funny? I mean, isn't that a question for everyone, whether you're an armed guard or not? Wouldn't it be funny if you got robbed? Is it ever funny when people are robbed? This guy feels like he's stuck in the social contract of someone has made a sarcastic comment, and therefore, he has to laugh, which is not true. No. Yeah. You could just go, hey, man. I know you think that's funny, but it's not at all. No. And then just walk away from the deal. Yeah. Because That's it. Essentially, what they're asking is is, like, you put it in any context of anybody's work. It'd be like, wouldn't it be funny if you failed at your work? Right.

Because that's his job is to guard things and not be robbed. Hey. I'm an athlete. Hey. Wouldn't it be funny if you were a terrible athlete? That's what the No. It would not be funny. I would mean I'm a bad athlete and therefore should choose a different profession. So maybe that's the response is is do you mean? Because I feel like you don't know what funny means. That's right. This guy obviously

brings us up in in conversation because someone asked him, hey. What do you do? He goes, I do this. They go, sarcastic comment. He goes, I'm stuck. I don't know what I do now. Yeah. Do I tell you you're not funny, or do I just sit here and live with it? Dude, just say, hey. That's not that funny. Yeah. Would it be funny if you got robbed? Would it be funny if you didn't wear a baseball cap all the time? Hey, man. Are you by chance dating a fashionista? I am, and it's awful. Hey. This is this is a classic communication problem. You know what I'm saying? As is my general advice, put two thoughts together

and say something. Hey, man. Try it out and just no. Yeah. Yeah. Try it. It wouldn't be funny. No. Or you know what? I'm not really an armed guard. I'm a clown. Right. Right. There's not a trick to this. Right? He asked you a question. Just answer it. Yeah. Exactly. Even if it's sarcastic, it's that doesn't mean you have to go, oh. He's got me now. Never heard of that one before.

Irony. See what Secular's advice is. Secular says, you could choose to laugh it off, or you might keep a straight face and say, it wouldn't be so funny if I or someone else got hurt. Bird. Oh, yeah. Here's the deal. Of all the choices that you have, I wouldn't do that one. Like, I mean, if people make a sarcastic especially if you wanna be any type of social with this guy, like, he just said something funny, and you show up with, like, heavy social burden right back at him. I mean, you're trying to get along with people. He they made a mistake. Like, they they got awkward. They don't know what to say with the arm guard. They went for the first half funny thing in their bag. It was swing and a miss. Like, you know I'm saying? Have a little grace for him. Everybody seems to be making the same mistake, and so either ends with the same brand of idiot across the board, or everyone just happens to make this snide comment. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Have a little grace for him. Say, yeah. That would be not funny probably, but I'll call you if it happens. You know? Like, there's there's a million ways out of that thing. Just pick one and go with it.

Yeah. Sorry. I was I was just trying to think of, like there's a lot of snotty ways to respond to that, of which you certainly should. Like like, how do you have a lot a lot of the ways that people want advice is they want advice on how to handle a particular circumstance that will then turn the tides and set them in the right. As opposed to recognizing that if the other person is in the wrong, right reaction is to then

to show them grace, like, our world just looks differently. I was thinking about this actually on people were having a Facebook conversation about Are we gonna have to turn the music back down? No. No. No. I I wanna get I wanna get to this quickly. So it had to do with, like, this this these are the same people who I see, like, lot on social media, like, it's I'm trying to think right way to put this. Their reaction to certain groups of people is pray for those folks, have grace for them, they're making decisions that they don't understand. Why are you Christians always so so judgmental? Right? Then they turn right around and, like, they have none of those things for people who otherwise disagree with them, which would be basically the same camp I'm in with the folks that they're asking me to be gracious with.

I thought, like, how often do we ignore our own advice when we look out and say, the guy that I staunchly disagree with, the guy I think is actually dangerous at times, can I these people in in my life or people in the in the public and kinda think of myself, like, did I spend any time playing for that guy? I Did spend any time thinking that guy needs that guy needs Jesus? I I hope we meet somebody who who knows Jesus can introduce him. Like, I hope it's not me because I really dislike him. Because here's the deal. You just look at people differently when you're praying for them. Yes. You're just you know, you just you treat people differently. You your words just come out differently. The things that probably shouldn't be in your mind to begin with about anybody avoid certain people because you're like, hey, man. I'm I'm realistically praying

for this they're in a situation that I don't know anything about. They're in circumstances that I am not in. Here's the deal is if if their if their worldview is so cockeyed, all I can do is hope that something go shows up that talks to him about Jesus and starts to set the thing straight. But, like, what am I gonna do about getting pissed about the guy? No. I agree. And so I'm just saying, like, a a lot of times are, even if it's true, even if it's right,

when people are wrong, like, that comes from somewhere. It comes from from somewhere that it hopefully could be righted or at least set in the proper direction, with the right, I don't know, people around them and knowing Jesus Christ. And so, like, can we look at people that way, and it can my first reaction be not how do I set this thing right in my own mind to prove everybody that I'm correct, but, like, whatever it is, however they got to be wrong, they got to be wrong, perhaps I could pray on that. You've been listening live for that. Hard to disgroup that. Yeah. I'm sorry. Big thanks, Brett Nicole, for coming in. We very much appreciate it. Thanks for having us, man. And we will see you next week. Please be faithful in the means. God will handle the listening to you live from the path.