Live from the Pathway Studios in Johnston proper. You are live from the path. And there it goes. It's gone. I'm very sorry about that. We used to have a smooth operation around here, and that has ceased. And there's it's not due to lack of funds. It's just laziness and, otherwise, other corporate problems that aren't your freaking business. So, anyway, you're listening live from the path. Thanks for hanging out with us. Here's what got going on show tonight. So Mike Mike says, I I didn't quite understand the saying the premise here, Mike. Do we owe Joel Steen an apology?

You know, here's the deal. I can't tell. I mean, it it it just this is why I can't take in media. You know what I'm saying? Like, it doesn't matter what I take in. This happened actually this week because I watched What the Health on the on the Netflix. Was it was it? Was there a what? It's called What the Health. What is that? It's a documentary. It's basically a a scourge on all animals and animal proteins. Oh, you should oh, you shouldn't. You like vegan. You should go vegan? Well, yeah. It's yeah. It's not vegetarian. Right? It's the vegan. It's the complete, you know, whatever. You can't have any animal byproducts either. Right? No dairy, no butter. No eggs. No egg. No egg. Actually, this is where he sold me. It's because because actually, I thought this thing is stupid. I can't believe any of this, you know, until the man goes, have you looked at an egg? He goes, that egg is enough protein and nutrients to raise an entire chicken for twenty one weeks, and you cobbling one a whole one down. Every day, you're gonna have two of those a day. There's Even if there's chicken. There's a hunger. Yeah. There's enough nutrients in there to sustain a chicken for twenty one days. And you're gonna go chicken. I'll have it. He goes, that can't be right. And I thought, you know, about that gum.

Maybe he's right. That does seem a bit excessive. It's not like I go pick up an entire chicken and eat them head first. You know what I'm saying? Like, I cut them into pieces. I serve them to the whole family, but not that little one. I'll eat all of his nutrients and protein for a full for his entire gestation period in one go. It's and I thought, maybe I should be a vegan. But but you know who doesn't consider that? Like a like a lion that otherwise takes down an antelope. And I suppose the wise He eats the whole he eats the whole antelope. But that was his other fact. He had diagrams. Right? He said, look, he because one of the main one of the main proponents of that we are to be eating meat is because we have the incisors. Right? And they go, look at your incisors. Do your incisors look like a like a bear or a lion because you tear in flesh? No. They do not. They don't look anything like that. And look at your intestines. The intestines of a meat eating animal is is only is is like what do they say it was? Like three

three times or whatever. And the and the the because they have to they have to have the the food move through the stomach fast, otherwise, it rots because it's meat. Right? But a but a a plant eater, it's like nine times the size. And so we have nine times the size just like deer and, you know, whatever other animals only eat vegetation. And so that was his big point. They he sold me on the egg thing and then he sold me on the size of the intestines. That's what wait. But but wouldn't that mean that my belly is always full of rotten meat? Oh. Actually, I mean, that would explain a couple of different That's what I'm saying. They say that's that's what eats to all the the the food allergies and the stomach problems and the the reason that we even have Pepto Bismol all is because you're shoving meat down your face and it takes nine it takes three times as long to get through your stomach than it does a bear's because you don't have any business eating it. And I thought, man, we got the diagrams and this egg thing makes a lot of sense. It's possible I should be a vegan. And that's the biggest joke on my dog ever. Right? Like, I'm sitting there eating meat for a stomach that can't handle it. I'm feeding him, I mean, you know, a bunch of dry, yeah, dry discarded something or other. Yeah. Brown kibbles. You know? He takes a bite and looks at me. Mean, it's a it's a girl, I guess. But she looks every day, she takes a bite and looks at me, and I always think it's weird that the dog crunches with her open mouth. But I didn't occur to me that she's being obnoxious on purpose to say, yeah, Ben. That's the same crap you gave me the last fifteen years of my life. Crush. Crush. She tried to eat a rabbit, and you scold her. You're like, we're gonna eat the rabbit. It's gross. Like, how dare you? You know? Like, I'm just doing what I'm designed to do. I got a short stomach and used to her letting letting a piece of beef slowly wind its way down and rot before it gets to where it's supposed to go. And that's true. That golden girl of a dog, like, caught a rabbit. I mean, she can barely get up and down the stairs. And three weeks ago, she catches a rabbit and brings it to the door. And I thought, you know,

go ahead. But then she doesn't bother eating it. She just kinda punctures it, and it's still alive. She didn't bite it hard enough. It's kind of wiggling around and stuff, and it it hobbles away. So okay. So hold wrap this background. The whole the whole reason I even brought up that story is because I'm easily taken in. Right? I can watch a I can watch a documentary on eating meat, and I'd be like, yeah. Yeah. We We shouldn't ever eat plants again. So The cow already ate the plants. I mean So the worst place for me me to be is Facebook. Right? Like, so one time, it's like, Joel Osteen, he won't open the church at Lakewood. Terrible. Blah blah blah. I'm like, yeah. It's terrible. You should open a church. The next day, they're like, look. It's not meant for habitation. Blah blah blah blah. He's got millions, but he's making millions after book sales and enough to tithe into the church. Church building have nothing to do with it. And he's a good man. I'm like, yeah. He's pretty alright. I don't know why we're getting so mad at him. So here here here was the the premise, in case you're it's two years from now and you're listening back to the show because you got really bored. So there's big floods in Texas. Right? Stevie Ray says there's flood in Texas and the thing's going down. The the hurricane had gone through. And,

and so there's a big to do because, Lakewood Church, which Joel Osteen is a pastor, they they bought out the old Houston Rockets Arena. That's where they hold church. Okay? Guy's got, like, a million dollar smile. I don't know. I mean, if he was born with that, the lord had him for televangelism. He's got a smile for him. Head to him. Yeah. So so, anyway, he, the people were all up in arms because there's flooding everywhere. There's, an overcrowded city center two blocks away.

He's got this giant stadium, or arena, and they they are they don't have it, they're not inviting people in. That's one of the technicalities here. He's not, like, saying you can't come in, but they I mean, they didn't put any signs out or say, hey. We'll take folks in. Social media post. It's like, you you swim here, you can come in, but we ain't telling you you can come in until you swim here. Mhmm. And so the discussion we had last week was basically, the the world has an expectation to Christians. Is it is are they fair expectations? And, like, broadly,

I our answer was yes. People expect the church to have open doors. They expect people to have food. Like, they have a really high liability for Christians to be taking action. And we said that is a completely responsible liability that the church is supposed to have, and we should be living up to it. But we said also, like, they've picked out a dude, and ignoring the, you know, hundreds of churches or thousands of organizations of people that are otherwise doing something that, like, aren't necessarily making the front page. It's just they've they've singled him out because the amount of money, frankly, that he has personally, the amount of money that goes to the church, and, the size of the operation that they otherwise seem to have. And here's the thing. That what what it all boils down to for me is is that third one is the that's the stinger. Right? Like, the reason that that most people call in the Red Cross or whatever is because they are attuned to doing this on a large scale. And if anybody is capable of serving 11,000 people every Sunday,

it it's it's liquid. They're they're set up for it already. They got the cups. They got the spoons. They got the coffee makers. They got the food. They have enough room. They have the air conditioning size for it. If there's anybody that is set up in that town to accommodate that many people on a regular basis, have the staff to handle it, have the organization already in place to get it done, and can follow all applicable laws to do it, it's it's them. And so, like, if there's a legitimate what it what it end up being for me is is it was a blindness on their part to think that they didn't have to speak to it. Because if they let's say they were legit and they couldn't. And then and they said, look. It's it's flooding in here or we're not the best option. There are better options out there. Right? You at least have to say that. If you're gonna be the McDonald's, you gotta be ready to take the hit for the rest of the fast food industry. And the same thing is true. If you're gonna be the biggest church in town and probably one of the biggest churches in America, you gotta be ready to speak for the you gotta be speak for the team. And so you can't just let it go silent and you can't just not bring it up. And frankly, I'm surprised they didn't have look. Look. We can't use our building right now. It's not the safest place, and it's not the best place to be. But we have people, and we have homes, and we have boats. And if you need a place to stay, you can come stay with me. Something. You can come stay with Something. We have Something is better than nothing. That's right. And it wasn't even a matter of that they're not providing, they're not proactively. It was it was complete silence for something that big. The the organization and the the media of that kind of a place, there was complete blackout blackout silence. And sure, they're in the middle of a giant flood and a hurricane. And there's there's other there's other people and other stuff coming out. How can the that expectation that a Christian organization should have should be a little more open arms, even if they're saying, hey. We're we're in a place, and this is what we're stuck with. Just being able to say anything and being able to say, we want to help. We need people to help. We have the organization to help or not help or we will.

Something is better than nothing. I I I think that was the that's where it ended for me. I, you know, I I think a lot of people came down pretty heavy on them. I think you could have some grace into their response and say, look. There was a lot of stuff going on there. But the thing is is, like, you can't be so blind to not understand who you are in that town, you know, and and who you're representing in that town and what it is that you're actually doing. Right? There's you gotta be I mean, they have staff. You know what I'm saying? They it's not just like one man's in there scrubbing the toilets, giving the sermon, you know what I'm saying, and and making sure the Bibles are ordered. They are they are staffed to handle thousands of people on a weekly basis. If there's if there's someone in that town that's capable of handling this response correctly, it it probably is you. It probably is you. You're staffed for it. You have the heart for it. And and what like I said, you don't have to put them in a building. You can be shipping them to individual church homes if you want. Let's say, if there's 11,000 people going there on a Sunday, you can say that's probably at least 4,000 households. And 4,000 households let's say two let's say half of them are flooded out. That's 2,000 households who'd be like, you come stay with me. We'll feed you. We'll make sure we're you're alright. We'll make sure everything gets straightened up. Start coming to our homes. The members of that church feel like do they feel like their church is serving them and serving the the community the the best that their organization can, what whatever the the leadership. But is

do they feel like their church is doing enough or doing something? Or I you know, actually, haven't seen a whole lot of I saw to open up to to outsiders. Right? But it's another thing to to say, well, this is my church and kind of own it and say, well, I need help, and can someone help? Yeah. Yeah. It was I don't know. What what did say? I saw Tyler Perry gave money, Like, Madea. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, it said came out basically in support of Lakewood and said and gave the money as part of what they're doing for the relief efforts.

Yeah. It would be interesting to know. I I guess so so here's here's where I'm at on that then. I would say it is a firm calm failure. To Oh, definitely. Yeah. To your point, like, they've got staff. There's guys who's that's their job is to be is to communicate things. I'll tell you I'll I'll give you an example. I actually I shared this, in in my in in my corporate environment. I I work for a, for we we do digital processes and things and, like, process improvement and stuff with a digital focus. And one of the things that we have, like a a touch point is is communication. And so, so you guys are familiar look, with Planning Center. Right? Like the company that runs,

Planning Center, they do church they do church applications. So, like, being able to have digital sheet music and presentation of lyrics and stuff on the board. They also do people check ins. They do it for like nurseries. Scheduling for the band, scheduling for the tech crew. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So like they just got a and and they have a giving platform. They got like a big host of different apps and stuff. And so they sent out a notification. I'm I get I'm still on their email list.

They don't know that I don't use any of their products. So, like, they they had seen some massive degradation in service, was, like, a couple weeks ago, especially with their check-in platform. And they the the transparency of this company in talking about, they were like, here's here's we figured out what happened. We we we had tried to make some improvements, and we saw some progress. However, here's some lessons we learned, things we did not do correctly in this instance, which otherwise would have helped the situation. Here's what we're doing. Like, they're they they they listed, like, I know the type of equipment they bought. I know the type of database they run. I know, how we how often they they, spend time on it. I know when people come in in the morning to look at it Sunday because they're they're like, we know this is important to you and it's important to us and it it kills us to think that we we may have let you down in these weeks that these things weren't running as fast as we can. Here's the troubleshooting items we take every, you know, every once in while. We'll take away a feature because it tends to clog up things. We took it away trying to figure out this problem. So, like, they gave you, like, a short synopsis and then they said, if you want the details, we got them. And, like, it it was impressive. It was the level of detail was impressive, the information they provided,

and and the obvious understanding of what the expectations of their customers were. Mhmm. And saying, like, we we know that this is important to you, and we know when we failed you, and we and we want you to know that we're going to to fix it. And like, it was one of the best, failures, like, communication of a failure that I'd seen. And I've seen that company do that multiple times. They're just very good at at communicating well. And so I I give that example, not because you should think of, people who need help or church personers as customers necessarily,

but like you got to know who you are, you got to know the, the role you play in someone's lives or what the expectations are and you have to be able to speak to that. And so irregardless of what of of whether they were working behind the scenes on some things, of whether their building was accessible or not, whatever that was, it is a straight up a communications failure and I think, Mike, to your point, a lack of understanding who you are. That would have been the first thing I would have thought of. Right? Like, as a flood comes in, I think to myself, hey, man, how can we use the building? Oh, we can't use the building. It's not safe or we're not prepared or they better go somewhere else because FEMA's over here and can log them in or whatever the 15 reasons might be. The first thing I would say is, hey, we'd love to be able to use our place. However, there's better options for you. You should do this. First, try this, then try this, and just know that we're coming in right behind you with blankets and materials and money and stuff. And, like, we regret that our space isn't available, so we're gonna do the very best we can to make up for the fact that something we have at our disposal can't be used. Yeah. You know I'm saying? Like, it was a really good opportunity. And and here's the thing. I don't I I don't wanna I don't wanna speak as if I know that that wasn't exactly what they were thinking. No. And they could have been very well Maybe totally their intention, but but definitely a missed opportunity. It was definitely a communications failure.

If if every benefit of the doubt is given, for an organization that big, that many staff, that many people, that much money going through, you gotta do better than that. Like, that that would have been a that was just so much a corporate failure. We would have had the same problem in an organization my size, like like Fortune 100 company. That's that it'd the same thing. There's an expectation that you react to certain things in certain ways. And so, if I'm gonna be fair, I know that's a hard fail. Yeah. Everything else, like, I I would agree. I think I got great. I think there's grace there. I think they overstated. Like, even the pictures where they're like, hey, building's flooded. It wasn't their some of them weren't actually their building. It was, a few blocks away or was the parking garage. They were like The parking garage. You know? And you're like, I you know? I hate it when my church parking garage floods. I'm I'm not overly confident at this response. And, like and here's actually, so here's the thing. They didn't they didn't own it. They didn't own it till, like, four days later. They kinda chip shotted some responses and some reactions,

without addressing the problem. Like, here's the thing is if you this is true from a corporate communication standpoint and frankly, even personally. If you don't tell people what's going on, they just think you suck. Right? They don't know the difference. They don't know what's going on. People will just fill in the blanks. Correct. Imagination starts to run wild and the longer the the imagination is allowed to run without just having some sort of a grounding Yep. The more it looks and sounds like what's on Facebook and That's right. And the news, and it's just a junk mess. Yeah. Internet trolls get to fill in details. So you provide details. That's why no one's ever gonna come at planning centers. Freaking guys are ready for it. They're like, we gave you every detail. You know everything we're doing. And you can criticize the detail if you want to, but you don't get to control the facts. And so, again, it was still a comp failure. They they they let it kinda punch around for a few days. And so, like, if there's a lesson, this is probably like a a church lesson here, but but I would say there's also a personal lesson. And this was one thing, like, that that that quote, if you don't tell people what's going on, they just think you suck. I interviewed a guy who ran, one of our call centers, and he was moving back to the East Coast. And, like, if you run a call center and people like you, that's a tough job to leave because that's a lot of people. There's a lot of people in call centers. And so,

he he was having a hard time because he loved everybody there and didn't wanna go. And he said, you know, I'm really having a hard time, but the truth is is that, like, I I gotta talk to people about it. I have to tell them. I have to help them understand my situation because otherwise, you know, there there are consequences to being in a rough spot. And if you don't tell people what's going on, they just think that you suck. They think you're just short-tempered with them or you think, like, that you're just ignoring phone calls or whatever it is that that's the output of going through something. He said context will help people understand you because they've been there. Like, they've had something that relates to that. Right? Mhmm. And so, so anyway, it's that same thing. They they let that punt around just a little bit. It's and and I hope it's just something that they learn from. And it reinforces, like, the the real power that a church like that has with their size, with their resources. And people look and say, we we have an expectation what Jesus people do in this situation. Are you doing it? And we should and and and I think what we got right last week was, yeah, we should be able to live up to that. It's a high liability to be a Christian, and it's ours to meet. Yeah. So

I don't know. Yeah. You know, I I'm I'm not gonna say I'm gonna be sad to see the whole situation leave leave the social media because, I mean, the the Internet's vicious. They're just vicious people. They just come out of the woodwork, you know, and like and and it really is. It's a ping pong match. You know? It's just like listening to it's you know what? It's just like reading mere Christianity or reading anything anything by that guy. Is it? CS Lewis? Yeah. CS Lewis, where he does point counterpoint with his with himself. You know what saying? He'll, like, give a point and he'd be like, yeah, right on. And then he'll give his own counterpoint against it. I'm like, well, that's right on. And then he'll counterpoint right against it. And he's just sitting there arguing with himself, giving him, well, if you think that, dig on this. And so I had to stop reading him, because I just get so confused. It's like Job and Romans. Yes. Both of them are like, yeah. You know what? I agree with that crap. I wasn't supposed to agree with that, was I? Yeah. Exactly. Dang it. Yeah. You know LFAST got me right about this. You've done something wrong, Job. Anyway, yeah.

It's a I I think you wanna take something away personally this thing. Look, have some grace for God's people. Right? It's not like they waited for the flood opportunity and then Osteen go in there and stuffing all the gold in the temple. His pockets is running out. Know what I'm saying? So like Although, the Babylon Bee, which is a Christian satire site, did a, did an article that said, like, once the once the streets flooded in Houston, that Joel Osteen was out there in a yacht handing out handing out copies of his books to people swimming around and going, your best life is now. And so, so that was funny. And so snopes.com, someone submits it and says, is Joel Osteen really doing this? So Snopes has I mean, it's Snopes is debatable resource anyway, but, like, they they went ahead and checked it

and, and debunked that it was happening. But, like, at least for a very small portion of the the, of the people in the in the earth, they thought, yeah, that's believable. This could this could be the deal. He's got the Lord is you're coming into time of favor. Swim on. Since it's that's the that's the problem with that stuff is we we just

don't know what really happened. Yeah. Yeah. That that's why I've not engaged, like, in all the debates and some kind I was like, I don't know. I wasn't there. I I don't know the workings of a mega church. I mean, that's like if they they go into your corporate world tomorrow and say, need 20,000 donuts by noon. What's wrong with you? You have the space. You're like, we're not wired for twentieth to make and that's not what we do. You know? We're we're wired to to handle people for an hour at a time and shove them out and get a new 100. You know, we're not we don't have beds. We don't have a hospitality staff. We have a ministry staff. It's a those are different worlds. Know? I don't know. That sounds lame, Dan. Well, I'm just saying they're just not wired. I'm not saying they're right or wrong. I'm just saying that's not what they do. And which could be a good argument against the corporate church, corporate, I mean, monster church. And anyway, they're so probably more worried about crap. The budgets are gonna fail. We have a 700,000

$7,000,000 building payment. You know? So I can't I even know the figures. Think they paid for that building. I'd have to double check, but I'm I'm pretty sure they own it. Maybe so. Yeah. But but their staff you know, half their staff's buried too. I mean Whatever. You can you can wait from a house. Machine is not finally oiled right now because half their people are underwater. I mean, any others but what's the game? I mean, don't know. The biggest failure of all this thing because even though they they're a megachurch with mega staff, that just means that's how many people that they need to operate that can't operate, but there's still an expectation. So if there was just the communication, if someone just tweeted out or did a did a Facebook with their official church thing and, you know, hey. We're underwater. Right. Doing the best we can. This is not something again. Yeah. You you know because all those people need help too. Servants ready to roll. You you you've you've got, you know, 700

staff ready to tell the 11,000 people what to do is is kinda how they're probably wired. And so they're all looking at each other like, I don't know. And and the staff are going, well, I'm just trying to save my baby even in in the bath, you know, she's she's washing downstream. I mean, you know, it's it's it's just a big mess. It's it's a disaster for everybody. And, you know. Yeah. Yeah. So I So I'm not defending them. I'm just saying I just don't know. No. Yeah. It's just stuff I don't know. So I can't criticize them. I can criticize them for lots of stuff. Right. I just don't know. But the communication, yeah, that would have solved a lot of stuff. It solved everything. We wouldn't even be having this conversation. Exactly. It would have came and went and it would have left and we just said, man, we you know, the church gave it its best shot, but, like, what are you gonna do? They're underwater or the electricity's out or blah blah blah blah blah We'd already known and fill in the blah blah blahs, and we would have nothing to talk about. We're thinking they're sitting around there eating onions going, man, this is awesome. Look at this dry space. You know?

This is what a natural disaster looks and sounds like in a a huge area. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And here's the deal. I don't have I personally don't have that liability to explain to people when I'm in the midst of a natural disaster why I'm not opening my home. Right? But in the position that they're in time, now you know for next time. Yeah. Know. Yeah. Right, Ben? Yeah. Ben Foust has not said it. He's not opened his home yet. Next Facebook post is ready. That's right. I heard Ben, last flood, was handing out books of someone else's. Yeah. This is the time in a canoe. But but right. Like, it it comes that's the thing. It's like that's why they're under derision, and the Third Baptist Church of Houston isn't getting the same question. Yeah. It's like you bought the big building. You got the guy that lives well. Like, people are already harsh at whatever that outcome is. Yeah. They already don't like them. That's correct. And so, like and and and, unfortunately, like I said, being a Christian in times of of trial, when people actually look at Christianity and want it to be true, it has a high liability here. And so, like, if you're gonna own the big dome, you gotta have like, you have to do better with that, at least on the calm side. I will I I'm with Mike, and and I think in agreement with where Dan's going to. Like, without knowing anything else, I I think there's grace to be had on whatever the actual output of what they're doing is. Yeah. I mean, there are flood happening. Yeah. Yeah. Right. But but but on the communication side, like, I'm I'm confident that that's just a flat out fail. Yeah. Yeah. Alright.

Reprieve. Reprieve. Reprieve. You know, if Noah was there, you think he would have sent something out or just left the doors open going, nope. Two. Keep bringing them. Yep. Yep. Twos. Wait. Wait. We already got a couple of you. You're out. First, see, first two that swim to the door in. That's right. Someone get those guys books. Yeah. Sir, that's a giraffe costume. You can't do

Let those let those rock people in. They're cool. They were a big help. That's right. Can you drown to rock man? I guess you can.

Don't fall over, Stan. You'll never come back up. Oh, man. I can't I can't even approach that again even at a comedy. I don't think I like, there's rarely a movie that I've seen once that I I wouldn't keep up I wouldn't let, like, casually watch again either because I liked it or I was reminded that it was so bad that I would watch it again just for that level. But that freaking Noah movie, I just can't. Let's do it. Like, I can't I can't even have it cross my screen. Oh, yes. I know it's Noah movie now. I just I flipped by it on the TV, and I I wondered if that there was some, artistic, liberties. There's I didn't realize Noah had a small army. You're you're looking they didn't change Noah's name to, like, you know, Stan or something. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's how much artistic the liabilities they took. They They just do what they want. Well, so, actually, so it has the the the rock guy the rock people roots,

have have roots in Kabbalah. So, like like Madonna type Kabbalah. Does Noah have roots in Kabbalah? Oh, yeah. Yeah. He's represented there. I mean, similar to how, like, there there are different think of think of it as, like, Epic of Gilgamesh compared to biblical account of flooding. Both agree that there's a flood. And then, like, there's points for the where things start to, like, wildly verge off course.

I I'm sorry. Did you say did you reference Epic of Gilgamesh? Yeah. I have no idea what that means, Ben. We talk yeah. We were talking about this last week after the show. No. Yeah. No. What are you doing? What what what's cameras rolling for that. What's the what's the gist of it? So so here's the here's the thing. It's like a lot of people will say that, like, the epic of, of Gilgamesh, otherwise, tells a story of a worldwide flood. Oh, yeah. And so the accusation points to Christianity and says, you stole that from the epic of Gilgamesh. Noah's story comes from the Gilgamesh epic. Now here's the thing. Both of them agree that there was a worldwide flood, and that's what you actually don't believe. So, like, it's kind of a nonstory. Right? Because, the, like, the the dating is suspicious and, like, what people look like. Here, what I would say is, hey. Both of these look and say, there was a worldwide flood. Let's start there. Every major religion and the oldest documentation you can find that you think Christianity copied all agree worldwide flood, and you're like, no flood. So, I mean, who's the idiot here?

So, you know, let's let's let's reverse the accusation here. Let's talk about where actually everything else agrees and you're upset. And then we can get to your accusation that Christianity stole the discussion, from oral tradition folks who actually just just didn't write it down soon enough to your liking. Right? So, like, it's a but that that's where it comes from. It's just an it's an old story that otherwise, that that the, some of the physical evidence of the documentation of the story predates physical evidence of Christian documentation of the Yeah. I know. But the Jews were old tradition. I know. I thought Phil might not have known. That's why I Thank you, Mike. You look confused. Less embarrassing that way. Come on, Phil. Read your Gilgamesh.

How will you do with your free text? My little pony is not good. We're gonna start switching that up at the house. You know what? This pony stuff ends now. Alright. Mike, so we were before the show started, you you had, speaking of epics, this one seems like a big question. So hit me up with it. I here's the thing. It's like I I can't even I don't even know how to frame it correctly, but I was I was just throwing a bunch of thoughts out there and trying to get a a direction on my thought process. Right? But, like, I I was I was thinking about this earlier today is I I I work and I'm around quite a bit of people that consider themselves Christians. Right?

But Jesus doesn't really define that. You know I'm saying? He doesn't say Christians are and then and then hands it out. Right? Nor does he really define ever anytime that he's talking to people, like, even look at, you know, Matthew five, Sermon on the Mount stuff, the the the example that I that I was mulling through today was the was the types of soils, of of where the seeds land, you know. And and when he explains where the seed lands, he doesn't say, like, a a a Christian will be choked up by the thorns and then they will no longer be a Christian. Right? Like, doesn't he doesn't take the group that are following him and define him as something, you know. He he just basically talks to everybody in a you fashion as the the things that he that he's saying. Right. I mean, mean, the the parable the parable of the seas or the sower,

he actually defines his reaction to the kingdom. Right? So it isn't even, like, talking about you in, you out. It's it is a it describes the otherwise interactions he's had up to this point and beyond of how people are reacting to the kingdom itself. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. So so so, you know, in Christian circles, we'll usually say Christ follower or a kingdom person or, you know, a a a follower of Jesus or something like that, you know. And and I thought, Jesus never really said though. You know, they're all we have to organize it some way. Like, I'm not saying that's good or bad or indifferent. Right? But, like, Jesus didn't really point that out. And the only reason that that comes into my head is because all these people that I know that claim to be Christians, I'm like I mean, I I'm I'm certain that you're not. I'm I'm certain that you're not. Right? Because there's no action. There's no fruit. There's no follow through. There's no following of Jesus anywhere in this. Right? You're just a Christian by whatever definition you feel a Christian is. Right? And so I what I was trying to figure out was is boy, I can't even now I can't don't even know if I can point my question to a certain thing. Right? But, like,

if you were gonna define what what Jesus is how Jesus is addressing people when Jesus is talking. Let's just do the gospel. Right? Like, when Jesus is talking, is he is how is he defining the people that follow him? What it like, what do those people do? What do those people look like? Are the classifications that we're calling them, are they are they actually accurate descriptions? And somehow, how has that gotten to be whatever he intended it to be to whatever Christian is now considered to be? I feel like we pay Dan for these types of answers. I think

I don't know about that question, actually, because the when when we're talking about those kinds of things, usually, when I think of of Christians, there there's kind of not necessarily degrees of folks, but we're talking I mean, the the goal is to get people to love and accept Christ as their personal savior. Right? Right. Now the idea is once you plant that particular seed, they wanna follow Christ and and do God's work and and that kind of stuff. Right? So there there's the the making the initial jump, and then there's the follow through. But a lot of a lot of folks kind of, I mean I mean, just over the course of a lifetime, go in and out of of following Jesus, walking the walk, life happens, other things happen, priorities shift, but there's still there's still that consideration of, well, I call myself a Christian whether I'm acting like it today or not because I accepted Christ

at one point. And that's I I think that's kind of the the broad stroke, typically, at least in in the West, is when you say you're a Christian, well, you you hit that point in your life. You hit that mark at one point. Are you following?

Are you following through? Are you doing anything to bear fruit? That's kind of Well, see, and that's actually where that question comes up is is like because I was I was thinking about the dudes with the thorns. Right? Where they get put in the thorny soil, the thorns rise up and choke the whole thing out. Mhmm. And and, like, the general thought process of most people I know is is like, hey, listen, if those thorns got rid of you, you didn't have it in the first place. You you were not you you were not following Christ in the first place. Otherwise, the thorns wouldn't have taken you out. So that's that's not true. I I wouldn't I wouldn't agree with that. I mean. Okay. So that's exactly what I'm talking about. So

what is it then? See, where I kind of strayed for me was way off in the beginning though when you were framing this is Jesus actually talks a lot about becoming a follower. I mean, that's what the whole Sermon on the Mount is about. This is what the kingdom is. You can join me or not. Mean, he wasn't begging him. He wasn't giving him a sales pitch. He was saying, this is what the kingdom looks like. Follow me. I mean, all those disciples follow me, follow me, follow me. It's all about following. And

I think where we went wrong is when we started going toward Jesus, my personal savior, I don't know see a lot of that in scripture. He came to be the savior. But somewhere along the line, transitioned it a generation ago or two into being let's hold crusades and save people and then we'd leave and they never became followers.

I mean, not the masses, but some didn't. And then we had to say, well, you're still okay because well, that ten years ago you said yes, when you waved the concert and it's like that's not in the Bible anywhere. It's just that's completely made up and fabricated. It's just not true. If you're not a follower, you're not following. And

we're called to follow and obedience. And so sometimes we're using the same vocabulary,

but saying completely different things in in the church, the modern church, because we're we we've just kinda screwed it up so much, I think. So so I I think so then the the logical question then, Dan, I suppose, is that, like so the disciples don't actually meet that criteria for a while. Like, they're following Jesus, but not actually following Jesus. Like, the way that they think of their enemies is not necessarily positive. Right? Like, they're not they're not Well, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's it's a growing process. You're following as much as you get. But the whole thing is you keep taking another step. You're taking another you're you continue to follow. You don't follow one block and then stop and say, that's all I really needed for my life. I got my salvation thing down. It's like you're continuing learning and growing. I'm a different person than I was five years ago for sure. But that doesn't mean five years ago, I wasn't a follower. You you know, I just follow better, I think. You know? I do things differently.

And, hopefully, that'll never change. I mean, does that kinda answer what you're saying? I mean Yes. So, like and I think that's that's where the that's where the the gray area seems to be. Right? It's like what what you were saying is, the the following is the is the inertia, not necessarily the success. Right? Because, like, you're you're not, you're you're not not Jesus. I think everyone's aware of that. That's not really the problem. But, like, how what makes that different? The guy who fails, why if he keeps walking

Mhmm. Is how is that different from the guy who, I mean, just kinda just sat down? He just sat down and said, okay. I've I've I've I've done the thing. I've I've said the prayer, whatever it was, and then said, okay. I think I'm good. I'm just gonna kinda do what I wanna do. That's a different that's a different circumstance. Is that what you're saying? Yes. Yes. Definitely. Maybe my mind kind of shifted to a conversation my wife and I had earlier, and I can't even remember what caused this. Like we were talking about

possibilities of our children making mistakes in life. And they're kind of past some of this stuff now, at least one of them is that what if one of our children were to get pregnant before marriage? Well, we wouldn't have known they made a mistake. They were godly people who love Jesus who made a mistake. Right. You know, they did something that even they wished they hadn't done, but they did, which is completely different than, up yours, God, I do as my plea as I pleased with my body. That's not a follower. Sure. But I know people who who, you know, would call themselves Christians, but will do whatever the heck they want with their body. That's not you're not following. You're not a Christian. You can't define Christian by your terms, it's by his terms.

And or the whole debate over just the sexual revolution in churches and churches that want to be more accepting, so to speak. And we just love everybody and we're supposed to call of course, we're just called to love everybody. But at some point, you make them followers and some of the things they're doing isn't following. So so we but we wanna put them in a church and and say they're great and give them a name tag that says Jesus on it when they're not Jesus people.

They they're spiritual people and and hopefully, they're headed toward Jesus, but they're not Jesus people. So don't call them Jesus people. You know, it's okay to not be a Jesus person. I mean, it's not gonna end well, but but I don't define that, you know. It's not that's not my rules. It's his. I think we as people need to

apparently, we need to kinda define that gray area more. Right? Yeah. There there there's kind of the the question of of followership and Yeah. The acceptance of Christ. But then part of that gray area, like the the story of footsteps. Right? You you you walk along the beach, you see one one set of footsteps, and Jesus says he's with you. And then you have the the hardest times of your life. You look back and say, Jesus, where were you? I thought, you know, for someone who falls down like that, they're the ones that are most likely to to break and and have just a a shift in their followership. Yeah. Yeah. Are they are they any less are they any less Christian, any less

Christ following, any less any of that just because because I mean, we're we're all human. Right? We we all are going to have those failings and and have those we're gonna lose strength at at some point to some degree. And does that does that shift where we're at in that grayscale and and how we would regard each other and others?

Yeah. So I I suppose that that that orients the conversation in the right direction. Right? And so like, normally, this is what makes these these conversations tough. And and like some of these we talked about, when when, Robbie and Aaron weren't here a couple weeks ago when they were talking about, people who are who are come to their their drug treatment program or their addiction treatment program. Right? And they're broken when they walked in. Right? And they're looking to change something different. And then you turn around and look at, like, the the bringing Christ to

to to say Ben's workplace or my workplace, and we are playing the long game. We're playing the year year game. You know I'm saying? Like, people who are broken that are looking for Christ will definitely find him, and no one points them to that better than Robbie and Aaron. Right? But I'm talking to, like like, most of our general workplaces are set up where, they don't even need God, really. You know what saying? Like, they make their own money. They handle their own affairs. They actually cannot see the need that you're saying exists. Even if you tell them of the need that exists, they're they're having a hard time buying it. Right? Right. And so, like, that mission area is much, much, much different than walking in on the broken who are looking to do something different with their life and know the God that created them opposed to the guy that's like, you know, I've gotten along for forty years without any of the stuff that you're talking about right now. And so, you know, you cope with this urgency or this thing that like where you have to rely on a God because you're weak and apparently misguided that you

own, you know, the guy goes, I got this covered. I don't see how I need this at all. Plus, actually, I'm pretty sure I'm Christian anyway because I went to church and I believe that God exists. Yeah. So so I think at his core, Mike, this is not, it's not gonna satisfy all critiques here. Sure. But, like, at its core, it's recognizing, the thing you're describing is, the the barriers are recognizing who God is and who you Right? It's a humble it's a humble stance that says, I need God. Right? If your position is, I'm saved. I'm now gonna do whatever I want, that's not a position of humility that acknowledges who God is. That's you saying God can provide me something. I got it from him at a good deal, and then now I'm gonna do whatever I want. Sure. Right? That so it's like ignore all the, hey. Here's here's the actions I'm still taking. Here's the,

here's what I wanna do with my life. I gave to Charity x number of times. Forget all the output and just say, do I appropriately recognize who God is and who I am? And any stance that says, thank you God for the salvation. I will do as I please does not properly acknowledge who God is, which means which I would say, that does not make you a follower of Jesus, a humble servant of the living God. Right? Because you are not you are simply not positioned. You are orienting yourself correctly. Which is gonna be the eternal relationship that you're gonna have to get on board with. Yes. Right. Right. That's the case. Right? And so in humility to God,

understanding who he is rightly and who you are, is there is there room to recognize that, at your core, you still will pursue sin. You often will diverge into pursuing something that is of, for your own benefit, and then otherwise repent from, because that is, a, your nature and, frankly, the the gist of being surrounded by the level of temptation that in a fallen world yes. I think that's all true. Think I but that does not, there's not a consistent posturing that says, I do not recognize,

who God is and who I am. Right? Yeah. So and so and at its core then but once I recognize if I'm in that position and I say I recognize who God is, then I start to take in, digest things like the Sermon on the Mount and say, look. Jesus says, this is what it's like. If you recognize who I am, if we agree that I am God and you are not, and you are otherwise in, in fealty to me, and I know what's what what is best for you and how the kingdom should work, and this is how the kingdom should work, then your right reaction is to is to do it, right, is to submit to that, is to pursue those types of things. One, because you're a fool not to. If Jesus is the king and he knows what's best and he says this is what's best and you're like, I'm gonna do what I want, Again, I would argue that you're not understanding the relationship again.

And that's a fool's parade anyway. But but second of all, it rightly starts to frame as like that's why following Jesus requires or or is at least the fruit of doing so. You start to look and live like Jesus because that's what he pointed you to do, and that is the nature of your relationship. And it it is the like, there's it would be unwise counsel to pursue that differently. And probably what we're getting in trouble is trying to define who's in and who's out. Oh, sure. You know? And that that that's that's where we get, like, say, because that's none of my business. I can't I'm not smart enough. I just want everybody in. You you know? And that's kind how I've always approached it. You know, it's like, of course, you made mistakes. Know, we're all much idiots and we're all fools. And we all have those weeds around us or the rocks or whatever.

We get choked out by things. And well, then you would clear out the weeds and we get back. That's our struggle, I think. And I think part of that's the caution Jesus has given us in that parable.

It's a, hey, watch out. And that's kind of a side note of that whole parable is watch out for those weeds. Have a chance to be choked out. You have a chance to have a hard path time in in your life where you're just like not listening to anything. And So so here's the thing. It's like, I think on its core, right, like, that's that certainly can be agreed to. What what what if I look at the situation Mike is representing, though, let's take a guy who's, I don't know, is 25, 27,

feel like, grew up in the church, had been baptized, says, I I I've got the thing out. Now I'm coming out to do whatever I want. He doesn't come back to that scripture, Dan. It's not like he reads that and recognizes himself in it. And so when I say, hey, it's not my not my job to call balls and strikes, which I I'm agreeing. Right? Like, I have no position, to say who's in, who's out. Alright. The question though is is I see this man and he says, oh, yeah. Yeah. I'll follow her Jesus. I'm like, well, he's mistaken, and he'll be hot in Yeah. No. You're not. I mean, here's the thing. That's the that's maybe the hard the hard call. Right? Because, like, here I I think sometimes we for the exact same reason that you're talking about, it's not my job to call balls and strikes on where people are at with God. But the truth of the matter, if I love you

and and you don't look like you're following Christ at all Yeah. I have got to say something to you. For heaven's sakes, I can't leave you to just do that. And, like, we we we do such a placate thing. We're like, well, you know, we don't wanna get up on our business or make people feel bad or yell at them or blah blah blah, know, but and here's the thing. Like, if I can look at your entire life and say, look, I I hear you saying that you believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins and give you life brand new. Right? But, like, if you really believe that, there is no poss makes it really hard to know when when you gotta start pulling triggers. Because I think most of the time, we land on the opposite side of not saying anything and being like, well, I'll just pray on that. I'll just I'll just here's here's the thing. It's like, would actually call the the the the discussion itself is probably your right basis point because you come up and say something like that to me and says, hey. Follower Jesus. Right? I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I say, well, there's some things. Right? You've noticed some things that I do, say, whatever, and you bring those up to me as a follower of Jesus. Although human reaction might be to say, piss off. I'm upset with you. Like, at its core, I I'm in. Okay? I wanna hear it. So it's it's why the that's why the Bible changes me. Right? And if I say, hey, I don't wanna hear it. You can't tell me what to do. Okay. Well, then that's not right understanding of who God is and who you are. That's true. So, like, just merely by bringing it up, look at the disciples' reaction even even when they're, doing the Last Supper. Right? Like, Jesus says, hey, man. The guy that's gonna betray me, he's in this room. And and the whole lot of them minus the old j I is going, is it me? Could be me?

Yeah. Yeah. Is it me that's gonna do the same? You know what I'm saying? Like, these are guys that understand their plight and they're like, I hope it's not me. You know? Dispatch. That's right. That's that's the that's the follower of Jesus reaction to when someone says, hey, man. Yeah. You are a follower of Jesus. These are the things that you're doing. And from from where I'm sitting, it looks like you and Jesus ain't having that good of a conversation. And the guy that's following Jesus that has got lost in his way a little bit, maybe caught up in the thorn goes, dang it. Yeah. That is me. And yes, I'm not in a good shape. I'm glad you noticed that. Yeah. And I gotta get right back on this thing. I appreciate you bringing it up. And pride goes, how dare you? How dare you look into my curtains and tell me of my of my deals? And then they Judas Iscariot and run for the hills. Listening to that pride though is is part of the Yeah. Part of the the that you're going to think that, and then you're gonna go, continue,

brother. Right. I'm sorry. Yeah. I'm taking him, like, three days later. Yeah. And and yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I said, I'm not going to debate the title they use for themselves. You call yourself whatever you want. But we'll have the conversation over. Okay. You're saying you're a follower of Jesus. He's going that way. You're going the other way. Maybe we ought to one of you needs to turn around, you know, and it's not him. So

It's that's a really weird conversation. And I think I mean, I'm more apt to have it than probably most. You know what saying? About just sticking your nose right up in somebody's grill and saying, here's the thing. Right? Yes. You do. I agree with that statement. But but here's the thing. It's it's it's it's only because I would hate it if someone did not do that for me. You know what saying? Wait till I come to you. Hey, Ben. I feel like my life's a little bit off. And he's like, well, I'm glad you asked because the past six months, you've been acting like a rock creature from the Noah movie and acting like a real doofus. You know what I'm saying? Like, if you let this go on six months, how dare you? How dare you not tell me? If you and I you know that I agreed to follow Jesus Christ, and you know I said this is what I wanted to do with my life, and I go off the rails for six months, and I don't hear from you till I bring it up, that's crap. That's real crap. You gotta do better than that. Knowing who it's okay to put your nose into like that is See, have a list that's just everybody. I say it's cool for everybody.

Yep. I can see that. Because it seems to me, it's not if I don't love somebody, I won't do it. If I love you, I will do that for you. Right? Because I would want someone to do it for me. Now granted, there's some tact to it, which granted, I don't have. But I I mean, most people do. You know what saying? You can put a couple thoughts together, look at the situation you're walking into, and maybe not show up with a hammer. But, you know, you have to have that conversation either way. Either way, I think that that you owe to somebody you love, I think you owe them that conversation. And I think that's the broad point. Right? It's like Yeah. Like, you have to be the right person. I for the I think that's kind of what Phil's getting at for people to actually hear that from you. Sure. But here's the thing, that's our goal is to be the right person. You know I'm saying? Like, you can't you can't hide out Hutt style from the world and be like, wanna be the right person. I just need to make him phone some free time. Right? That's why you have coffee. Why you make friends. That's why you, like, serve and love other people so that when you talk, they listen. And then you become the right person. So that's we're people folk. That's true. And if you wanna look that on the on the opposite end for the guy that wants to do the talking, look, if you ain't the right person for anybody, you know, you're not doing this right. Right? You cannot possibly be the wrong person for everyone in the world. Yeah. You've got to do better than that. Yeah. Yeah. That means because if you're that wrong of a person, that means some other guy, like a group of people who love Jesus, still ain't willing to approach you. That's exactly right. I'd like to help that guy, but he's just a he's just a weasel. Alright.

Okay. I I yeah. Well, I think we settled that one. Okay. Good. Alright. Oops. Oh, boy. America's fastest growing game show. Secular or Solomon? You've stumbled upon America's fastest growing Internet game show,

Secular versus Solomon. I'll beat Solomon in this one, bitch. No. That's not a role playing game, Mike. Dang it. Can we have Gilgamesh in this one? Yeah. Just tonight. That's question three. So here's the here's the premise of the game. If you're new to the world, I mean, otherwise, you had to have heard about I'm gonna give you a proverb, a bit of wisdom, and your job is to tell me whether it is a biblical bit of wisdom or whether it's of the world. So biblical wisdom, you're gonna call Solomon,

something that comes from non bible sources, otherwise, worldly stuff. Paganism, I like to say, is is going to be, secular, and then I need a country of origin because we need to we need to know where this nefariousness is coming from and root it out. Alright. So that's the goal. I will give you the bit of wisdom. You tell me, secular Solomon, country of origin. Mike will assign the points, and we'll go around, Rob, and I will do my best to keep track of whose turn it is. If not, you're just gonna have to live with that. It's late, boys, and I'm the host, and I do what I want. Here we go. Question number one, starting with, Dan Huth. Secular or Solomon, a country can be judged by the quality of its proverbs.

A a country can be judged by the quality of its proverbs, secular or Solomon? I'm I'm gonna go secular on that. And trying to think where that might come from. That's got to be Okay. I'm thinking too hard about this. Maybe. Maybe, Dan.

There's you have literally no skin in this game. I've not read the this particular nation's proverbs. So okay. I'm gonna I'm gonna go with secular, and we're gonna go Afghanistan. It's just Middle East feel to it. I don't know. It's got a vibe. Dances got a vibe. Country can be judged by the quality of its proverbs. Phil? Yeah. I'm gonna go secular too.

Thinking further east, though. Maybe India? India. India. Fills it with India, Mike. Secular Russia. Secular Russia. Here we go. A country can be judged by the quality of its proverbs. It is indeed secular Germany. Germany. Does anybody get a point? You're the point man. I signed you the point man. No points for anybody except for me. I made a valiant attempt. None for Phil. None for Dan. I'm a hugger. In mother Russia, proverbs make you.

Hey. Yeah. If Buva were here, he would have got it wrong. Deduct 10. Yeah. Deduct 10 points. Negative 10 for Buva. Secular or Solomon, a house without a dog or a cat is the house of a scoundrel. A house without a dog or a cat is the house of a scoundrel. Phil, do you have a do you have a dog or a cat? I have a dog. Okay. Alright. Alright. Secular Solomon. Secular, it sounds like.

Dog or a cat. Sweden. Fills in with Sweden, Mike. I'm gonna go secular and Colombia. Secular Colombia, Dan. Yeah. I'm I'm going secular, and and it's gotta be hurricane Harvey.

It's not a it's not a country, Dan. But it is raining cats and dogs. This requires Phil, you laugh at stuff like and that's what keeps encouraging. I got the drummer. I had to do the the rim shot. We've been working on a stone cold silence on them jokes for five years now, and here you come laughing it up. We've lost every benefit. Okay. In that case, I'm gonna go with Japan, and I will not say why. Dan, it does not specify whether the dog is on or cat is on the stove or not, so Dan goes with the Far East.

A house without a dog or a cat is the house of a scoundrel. Secular Portugal. Portugal. Portugal. Portugal. That's no point. Dan, were you working on that joke, like, all day? Because that was I don't wanna say it's good. You know what, Phil? I'm gonna deduct some points from you right now. Minus five to Phil. Hey. I kept talking. That was the problem. Here's the Phil Phil has a nice a nice warm face, and so that was actually more insulting

than how it came across because it says, I don't think you thought of that off the cuff, Dan. He had to have fed you the Proverbs editor. Quietly inside, I'm thinking, you gotta remember that. It's almost too good, he says. It's almost fuel quality. The nation of hurricane Harvey.

Secular or Solomon, love not sleep, lest you come to poverty. Open your eyes, and you will have plenty of bread. Love not sleep, lest you come to poverty. Open your eyes, and you have plenty of bread. Secular or Solomon? Boy, Ben, that really just that that that strained Solomon. I'm going Solomon. Solomon, Dan. That is definitely an Italian secular proverb. Hey, man. They wake all night in Italy. They like the bread.

They they don't like to sleep, and they love the bread. Probably those two things are related. Phil, you need to hear argument, but it's the wording sounds so biblical

ish. I'm gonna go with biblical. It's not an option, Phil. There's it's either Solomon. Okay. Is probably what I meant to say. You only get one warning. Alright. One biblical mulligan, Phil. I'll take it's a negative three. Yeah. The mulligan's not free. It's a it's a a false name. Buhver fighting for the bottom.

Buvo win that. Love not sleep, lest you come to poverty, semicolon. Open your eyes, and you will have plenty of bread. It is indeed Solomon, Proverbs 20. Plus one for Mike. Proverbs twenty thirteen. Dan still got straight goose eggs. Boovah's 30 and a whole. I just wanted to use my Italian line. Hey. What? I'm sorry. I didn't have the hands for that. I mean, hey. It sounded like you were doing the fonts.

Isn't the fonts Italian? Fonz really? My hair up. I suppose it is Italian. Well, you know what? I'm gonna lose point. Same on me. Negative five for Mike. Alright. Speaking of which, secular Solomon, a bribe is like a magic stone in the eyes of one who gives it. Wherever he turns, he prospers. A bribe is like a magic stone in the eyes of the one who gives it. Wherever he turns, he prospers. Dan Hudson.

Well, at first, I thought you said bride. Oh. And I was just trying to figure that out, but it went all biblical. I'm gonna go Solomon now. Dan's in for Solomon. We are the magic stone of Christ. Stony brides. Are we talking about That's Belizar true. It's we're back to Kabbalah. Negative too, Phil. Going with Solomon on this one too.

Phil's in for Solomon. Mike. I'm gonna go secular and China. Secular China. A magic stone does sound Chinese. Sure does. A bribe is like a magic stone in the eyes of the one who gives it. Wherever he turns, he prospers. It is indeed Solomon. Proverbs seventeen eight. Oh, man. Hey, man. I don't remember no proverb about metal magic stone. Here's the deal. That means Now you will. In Solomon's in Solomon's time, someone was hawking magic stones. Yeah. It does. Like, because this had to make sense to them. Right? So he's like yeah. Motion

ones. What what do you call those? That was a pet rock. No. No. That's just what I was thinking. They still sell The ring, like a mood ring. The mood ring. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Look at this look at the mood ring stone on that guy. I can see you're angry. I've never I've never felt that way. Alright. Secular or Solomon. Whoever is slack in his work is a brother to him who destroys. Whoever is slack in his work is a brother to him who destroys. Secular or Solomon Phil?

Secular. New York in the thirties? Phil I can't take away enough points, Ben. He's already in the hole. He's already lost his mulligan. That is not a country. US.

Okay. Except United States. Mike. Secular Russia. Secular they do not not put up with the slacking comrade in Russia. Dan. Solomon's all over the sluggard. Dan. And the sluggard. Dan Dan said even, you say slacking or sluggard, he's got Solomon on it. Whoever is whoever wears slacks to work is a brother to sorry. Whoever is slack in his work is a brother to him who destroys. It is indeed Solomon, Proverbs 18. Dang. Oh. Proverbs 18.

10. I got 10. And Dan's really starting to pull ahead here. We're gonna boob a miss 20 on that one. Man, boob was having a rough go. You know, here's the thing. I don't even know why he comes. You know what saying? Like, I mean, I'm fail him at the secular Solomon regards who was here not to defend himself. Alright. Here we go. Secular or Solomon. One cannot shoe a running horse. One cannot shoe a running horse.

Mike. Secular, and that is Roman, Italy. Same. I'm not good with countries, Ben. Alright. Alright. Alright. It didn't say anything about a horse eating bread. Yeah. Dan says you're wrong. Dan, one cannot shoe a running horse. Yeah. That's that's secular, and I'm trying to think of what nation gave birth to Kentucky.

Kentucky, son. What's the father? How do you how do you do that in biblically? Those horses all came up from Mexico. You see It's Mexican. When two European countries love one another. It's bar Kentucky.

I was gonna tell you it was Mexico, Dan. Mex Mexico. Here's the deal. If if anybody could shoe a running horse, I feel like a Mexican could do it. You've seen those guys handle the horses at the track? That ain't no doubt. They're fantastic. Anyway, Phil I think. Secular. Spain. Fills in with secular Spain. Here we go. One cannot shoe a running horse. It is indeed secular

in The Netherlands. The Netherlands. I don't think of them with with wisdom. Need a I don't know if I think of them with horses. Way to go, fellas. Yeah. You know, we could mute the mics. Yeah. Just a quick heads up. Like, heads up, boys. I'm a say something offensive. Next one. The Netherlands have neither horses nor wisdom. Yeah. Secular Solomon. Here we go. Secular Solomon, gracious words are like a honeycomb,

sweetness to the soul and health to the body. Because I always think of honey as beneficial to my health. Gracious words are like a honeycomb, sweetness to the soul and wealth excuse me, health to the body. Secular Solomon Phil. Solomon. Phil's in for Solomon, Mike. I'm also in for Solomon, Ben. Solomon, Dan. Yeah. Yeah. Solomon. Definitely. Definitely Solomon. We're running the trifecta here with the top two box. Gracious words are like honeycomb. Sweetness to the soul and health to the body is indeed proverbs 16.

Beautifulness. Always a good one. Honeycomb was a food group in Solomon's day. I know you've honeycomb for a long time. Just like milk? Yeah. And honey? Milk and honey. He said those Different different food groups? They also did manna. So bread. Three food groups of the Lord. Milk, honey, and manna. I wouldn't say that. Yeah. Yeah. They're they're vegetarians, Ben. They say we can't have any of those. No. That's true. I got Ben to buy in on the idea, so I was I knew I was into it. Phil's in. Here's the deal. He showed me a magic stone. I said, I'll go where you're going, sir.

Here we go. Secular or Solomon, a brother offended is more unyielding than a strong city, and quarrel quarreling is like the bars of a castle. A brother offended is more unyielding than a strong city, and quarreling is like the bars of a castle, secular or Solomon Mike. Secular, I get no. No. No. That's all wrong, Ben. Solomon. Solomon. The you okay? He had a portico. I'm not sure about his castle business. Damn. Yeah. I'm tempted to go Europe, but I'm I'm going Solomon. Who? Oh. I'm torn between the Lord and Europe.

Aren't we They Phil's in. Secondary. Germany. German. Germanic. Yeah. Angry brothers in castles. Phil says that's gotta be a German. It's gotta be the Scottish. Okay. It's gotta be some place in castles. I'm gonna accept Switzerland doesn't seem like the kind of place that would have quarrels. They're pretty neutral. I mean, but they Historically. Their wisdom warns others, Phil. Maybe they're saying this to the East German. Okay. You tell me. Maybe somebody stole their horse.

Or never mind. A brother offended is more unyielding than a strong city, and quarreling quarreling is like the bars of a castle. Solomon, Proverbs 18. Proverbs 18. That was the bonus round. That's a 100 points out for you. That's too bad. Me and Dan look good, though. How'd it go, Dan? Look. We've sworn ahead of you. Here we go. Secular versus Solomon. Speak not of my debts unless you mean to pay them.

Speak not of my debts unless you mean to pay them. Secular or Solomon. I damn. Go. Do you feel like you've got an idea of what he's gonna say? I feel like it's going to be something offensive. I feel like I know where it's going.

Go ahead, Dan. We're waiting. He's secular and he's Italian. Now see, you set him up. They couldn't have said nothing without someone going, oh, Dan. Oh, shucks. You whippersnapper you. Chile always owes money.

Alright, Phil. The Italians have moved to America. I'm I'm gonna go with, not secular. No. Come back. There's

not a pass. I don't know. Have nothing writing on this, Bill. I know. This is late night Internet radio. Nobody is listening. Go ahead and throw one out. Secular. I'm flabbergasted. Kinda come up with a country now. Philippines?

Indeed a country. It's better than New York for You know what? That's 10 points, Phil. You're a good boy. I feel like it's secular. I just I don't have You can't say Italian. It's short enough. It's, yeah, I'm not gonna say Phil says Phil says they they changed their names at the Ellis Island for other reasons. It's not because they owe debts like Dana said.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Johnson. Giuseppe Johnson. I I owe nothing. You don't owe me. It's pretty fair to death. I live in my whole life.

I hang out on the island. Mike, what do you think? Speak speak not of my debts unless you mean to pay them, Mike. Yeah. Secular. Yeah. Secular and Scotland. Come on now. What's a country where they're like, you know what? Stay out of my affairs. Russia. North Korea. North Korea.

Korea. Can I change my answer? That's right. Argue with me again. China. Yeah. Here we go. Give yourself three points for that alone. Thanks, Phil. I'm have to take it from you just for a second. Yeah. Might have stretched our we've reached our cap.

We got rules here, Phil. Yeah. It's true. Rate it in. Speak not of my debts unless you mean to pay them. Secular Benfoo England. England. Dang. I was gonna say England. Hey, man. England says stay out of my affairs. When? They they they they only share what they wanna share in polite company. You don't get into your personal business. I don't know that about England. Come on. Haven't you ever watched Downton Abbey? No. Damn.

No. Really? I mean, no, sir. I mean, I mean, it's quality. I'm always on the island. I kinda watch it at Downton. Alright. Here we go. Secular or Solomon

where we at here? Final one. A society make some kind of noise, Phil, to indicate the final question. I

didn't see that coming at all. Expected, like, a beep or a siren or something. Fill it with, like, a boat. Know, it was it was Yeah. Bring it into the harbor. Yeah. Alright. Let's start over. You better hurry up and talk because otherwise, I'm just gonna keep making noises then. Gets worse. Alright. Alright. The ever encouraging reverse Doppler.

Thanks. Thanks, Phil. Alright. Here we go. Welcome. Society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in. This is hold on. A society grows great when old men plant trees whose shade they know

they'll never sit in because they will die. Secular solid. Ben Foust. Damn. Man,

that that's a that's a secular, and I I just I feel it just screams Ireland. I agree. I mean, I have no opinion on this. Alright. The Irish, otherwise known as a goodwill plaque. Go ahead, Phil. It's not secular this time. No, Phil. Phil says no. No. It's not. I'm sorry. We do require you actually submit the one of the choices. I I can't I can't infer by saying not one or the other? No. No. We we have a dense Skorky.

Oh, so what's the other option when it's not secular? Solomon Phil. Solomon, it is late. Phil's in for Solomon. Mike, you're a 150 in the whole Phil. I didn't put over this garbage anymore. Yeah. That's a secular Canadian Canada. Let you know. I'm a lose a 150 points.

Alright. A society grows great when old men plant maple trees whose no. Sorry. When old men plant trees whose shade they know they shall never sit in, it is indeed secular Greece. Man,

that's called Greece. And then fellows are always I know you've heard that before somewhere. If if you heard it before, it came from a Greek. Probably during the Olympics. Yeah. Yeah. They make they make yogurt and wisdom. Greek. They also can't pay their debts, though. I wonder if they they they have that English proverb. They they use that one too. Stay out of my affairs.

Alright. You've mistakenly stumbled onto America's, unproven fastest growing Internet game show, Secular versus Solomon. If you wanna see past clips of the show because you know you do, go to lifefromthepath.org and search for Secular versus Solomon. There's plenty of folks out there, quality guests that have visited the show and done absolutely horrible on the program. Yeah. And just just like just like Bubba did. And so Boy, Bubba was, like, 460 in the hole. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, pray for him. He's he that's that's gotta hurt. I mean, we usually run on, a 10 scale. Like, I don't even know how he did this bad. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's a that's that's a failure on a massive size. I mean, that's like sitting on a hurricane messaging for four or five days. We really love him. We're we're all gonna need to talk to him after the show. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. We'll we'll send him messages. Yeah. If you love him, we'll we'll bring it up. I did it earlier today.

I mean, here's the deal. I could call Buva to repent of his ways of being so bad, but Phil Phil forgot that Solomon was even an option 80% of the way through the game. Or he or he was he could have been cutting it wise. Either way, who's the other guy? I mean I knew it was definitely not the wrong answer. Was that the wrong answer, that one?

Yeah. I don't remember, Phil. Anyway, congratulations. Good job. And and is because you did such a great job, the thrift store priest is gonna look at you for the rest of the program. Congratulations. What a great honor. Hey. Just for a heads up, Dan did win that game. Oh, Dan. Alright. He was the only one in in positive, and I even deducted him points just for his general personality personality and demeanor. He was still on the positive. I mean, he really knocked it out of the park. Alright, Mike. Who who who needs some advice? Dear lie from the path,

my husband and I have been married for twenty six years. We have a daughter, 25, who recently graduated from college. We will have a small gathering of close friends and family to celebrate. Good. During our entire marriage, anytime we invited my in laws to birthday parties or other special occasions, they've never accepted unless we agreed for the event to take place in one of their homes. I feel at this point they no longer deserve more invites. Although they were invited to attend the graduation, of course, refused. My husband feels we should invite them even though he knows they won't come. I feel they don't deserve any more invitations, but my husband refuses to agree. I've never been unpleasant to them or spoken about how I've felt about their their snubs. My daughter has also reached the point of not caring if they're included because she feels the same way I do. Under your influence. Good. Am I wrong for feeling this way? Yes. I mean, kinda. Yes. Just invite It's understandable to feel that way, but it it costs nothing but a a literal breath or or even less than that, a single text message to Yeah. Extend the invite. Yeah. At the most, you're out 60¢ for a stamp

and and an extra couple copies of the invite. Send it out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Even if you're the conniving type, just use it as another nail in their coffin. Send another one out and go, see? They never accept them. Yeah. Just say just just continue to accumulate evidence until either you or they pass away. Yeah. I mean, where are we supposed to host their funeral? You know what I'm saying? Like, these guys are completely unreasonable. There you go. I think the funeral should be at your home. I mean Well, couldn't couldn't you just care? Couldn't they just plan better too? Just plan it at their parents' house and then let them know, hey. You're invited to your house for something on such and such a date. That's true. Just have caterers start setting up in the morning. No. Caterers. No. Just say you will be serving Yeah. Chocolate cakes and

rotisserie chicken. And just make it outrageous so they have to respond and say, well, we don't wanna have it here. And if they and if they say yes and they roll with it once, once is enough to to say, we're doing this again. Yeah. Every time. I can't wait for another I can't wait for the next birthday when we bring it over here, and they just do what's told. I would announce it. Like, I would I was to everybody at the party, hey. If you tell them to do this, they'll do it. And either they'll change their ways or they'll be hosted parties till kingdom come. Yeah. Those parties are gonna get progressively bigger each event. Yeah. Yeah. At the bare minimum, just send the invite. What do you care? Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. It doesn't appear that that she even really wants them there anyway. But if if you want them part of your life, then go to a neutral. Go to a park or something. You know? That's still not their house unless they're homeless. Yeah. It sounds like they'll only do it at their place. I thought it was just not at They wouldn't even go to the graduation. Right. You got us right. That's right. Which assumes that a center or something. Yeah. Okay. Secular says, not knowing why your in laws are reluctant to celebrate milestones with you outside their homes, I can't guess their reason. However, you are entitled to your feelings, and from my perspective, you should have asked them them the rationale for their reluctance years ago. That said, I do not think this is time to punish them, particularly because your husband feels so strongly about it. They are his family. Send them the invitation, you'll be beyond reproach. Who knows? They may surprise you and attend. However, if they don't, it will be on their head and not yours. That is a good point, though. This has never come up with conversations. Hey, Carol. How come you and Dave refuse to leave your house to come to or get together? In twenty six years, did they even go to the wedding?

Unless it was at their house? Twenty six years is a long, very solidly consistent I mean, wouldn't you figure if it was health problems or they're just hermany people? She would have said so. It'd be like, look. He's a bit of a recluse. He don't like coming out. You know I'm saying? Like, if they had a reasonable expectation

here, she's writing it. This goes back to the wedding twenty six years earlier. Something happened. You know, if there was a concern that set of parents would say, no. I object to the wedding. Not having it at their house was one of the best choices. They didn't like the dress. They weren't there to see it. They were still at their own house. Yeah. They they didn't go to the church. They wanted to make glitches flowers in in the bridal letter.

So, Dan, you think they're they're harboring some kind of insensitivity or long term They got a big argument over the wedding, you know, process. Or I wonder if I wonder if let let's just, let's just spitball with me for just a second here. Is it possible that they've actually done the the lady writing it has done something so offensive, and she knows very well what it is and is not saying so? Yeah. At the wedding. If they're still Eyes might still be right. Decades and decades, that that would have been We kidnapped Carol and Dave's dog dog and sacrificed it at the wedding altar.

But I failed to mention it in this query. I don't know why they're so upset. I can't imagine something that she's done that would be remedied if they had the the celebrations at their house. What would be any there would be no difference. At least be on her territory, and they could watch the dog better. That is true. If it really was the dog sacrifice thing, I suppose at least they could keep an eye on the animals. Well, it doesn't sound like they have a strained relationship other than this. Right? It's just they just don't do events that normally you would celebrate big accomplishments. Has their their quirks. Yeah. This is a weird story. Anyway, we've solved it correctly. Yeah. That's more. Put a stamp on it. Yeah. You're you're sending the invitation. Okay. Dear life from the path. Some of them lasted more than a year, but many have been short lived. I've been engaged once and proposed to three times. It's a joke among my friends that I'm a serial dater, but I don't feel it's worth my time to sit around and be depressed about something that's not working out. I've been seeing someone now for the last four months, and I can honestly say I've never felt this way before. Before. We complement one another in so many ways and have much to learn from each other as well. I am as in love with him as he is with me. My issue is nobody around me takes it seriously because I've had so many relationships and, quotes, loved so many times. Mhmm. I try to tell them this is different, but they brush him off as just another guy who'll be gone with the wind someday. I don't wanna take it personally, and I'm not usually the type to care about what others thinks, but it irks me because I am so passionate about this man. Should I try harder to make them understand or just enjoy the love that I'm in? Well, yeah. What do you? I mean, let it speak for itself. Yeah. You're still married ten years. You can look around and go, but

if you break up with a guy in in three months, you'll be like, yeah. You was right. That and understand that if you have never been in a she had never been in a relationship for longer than one One year, I think it was. Yeah. Okay. So that that sounds like you can have a a fair amount of new relationship honeymoon that yeah. If it lasts a year, you're doing really good. But if you haven't had anything that's lasted longer than a year, you should kind of have that expectation of your friends that, yeah, they will just nod their head and and kinda give you the empty, oh. Right. But until until you break a year, no one I don't I wouldn't buy it from my friends either. Yeah. Serial data or not, if you've never had a relationship longer than a year and you think, this is it. This is gonna happen. And relationships less than a year, and you've been engaged wait. How many times? Three. Oh, yeah. Oh, I didn't I I didn't catch that. That's right, Phil. That's

Yeah. Yeah. You're right. You're you're not believe me. Your friends are right. You're not believable. Yeah. I'll I'll start believing it. You tell me when you hit 12, and and we'll talk in thirteen months. And that has nothing to do with your relationship with this guy. Yeah. Right. They didn't get him. Yep. Yeah. You're trying to you're trying to marry a man, you wanna spend your life playing to everybody you know? Right? Like, what's your point in dating this man? You wanna show everybody that you can date man, or do you wanna you wanna, you know, get married and live and and and have a friend? Months in your face, Becky. Yeah. Like, what's the what's the point of that? Well, and if part of the question is genuinely, should I just enjoy the love, why would you why wouldn't? Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's really funny. Well, you can't have a terrible friends if it's a a matter of you have to get permission from your friends or enjoy the love. You can't, like, you can't do those separately from each other. You have to have them together. Yeah. Right. I'm sorry, Bill. I date I I gotta date you at least fifteen months. I gotta show these people I can stick with something. Yeah. That's a real winner. When we were dating, we moved our wedding date up from December to August. So not a significant amount, but we moved the date. So all of my friends thought Cheryl is pregnant and everything. Right. And I wanted to run around and tell everybody, no, no, no, it's not the deal. We just I'd like to try

to get pregnant. So that's why we moved the data. And but rather than sit there and worry about it and I'd known what everybody was thinking, we just say, you know what, they'll figure it out. They'll figure it in nine months, they'll figure it You know? Mhmm. It it took us five years before we had our first one. And, you know, everything worked. So just they'll they'll figure it out with this gal, with the with this relationship, I mean. Yeah. Yeah. If you're playing the long game, you'll win in the long game. Yeah. Okay. Relationship's less than a year. Learn the long game. Read a book. Yeah. Right on. First first step in in making that. Read book. Next.

Segular says, just be happy. Sometimes the harder we try to sell something, the more resistant the buyer becomes. You don't have to convince anyone that this is a real thing. As the relationship develops, those around you will see it for themselves. Yep. That first half, two thirds of the advice sounds like it talks to the the guy who was trying to sell that magic stone. Yes. That's the truth. I mean, here's the thing. I mean, you got I you know, I know a guy. He'd been a solid alcoholic for ten years. He come up to me one day and be like, I quit drinking yesterday. And then I laugh and laugh. What? You know, you've been through less than twenty four hours. You know what saying? Like, you quit no drinking. You know? And so, like, the same is true with the you've shown every everybody a past and said, I can be counted on to act in this way. And then you show up one day and say, I don't act that way anymore. You gotta give people a little bit of time, you know, just to soak that in. And, like, you get you don't get to spend all your time proving it to them. Just, you know, enjoy what you're doing.

Hey. You've been listening live for The Path. Thanks for hanging out with us. We really do appreciate it. Next week, I do not have any plans. Hey. Here's what we got going on, though. Well, Crystal Joy, has her her, her next book is out, and so we're gonna be talking to her in October. Cool. Excited to hear that. And so she will be in studio. Look forward to that. Who else? Oh, shoot. Didn't he have someone else coming in? Hey. We're gonna talk to, a guy doing prison ministry. Yeah. We're gonna hold to him, because good news changes the world even in prison. And so we we got to see when we talked to, Robbie and Aaron, from a from the drug rehab side,

we touched on the ability for that good news to help people while they're in prison. But, I wanna I wanna look at that a little bit more because good news changes the world and we wanna be reminded of how it's getting done. So, hopefully, that'll happen here within the next two or three And, in the meantime, go ahead and check out lifefromthepath.org, old episodes of secular versus Solomon, musical numbers, and all that. Oh, wait. Someone else had a new, who had a new album out? I'll remember next week. I'll get it for next week. Alright. Baby, in the meantime, be faithful in the means. God will handle the ends. You've been listening to Live From The Path.