Live from the Pathway Studios in Johnston proper. You are live from the path. And you're listening to Live From The Past. From the past. We're

to start a slow clapping room of three dudes. It's like a live studio audience here. Hey, man. I I realized so I was listening to we were on a car trip this week. Actually, we're heading to heading to Buva's wedding with my two oldest kids. And I was back listening to some episodes of Life in the Path. Every once in while, I like to just check out and say, hey, man, how did it go? Yeah. And

I realized that one of the things I'll do is is right after the show starts, I'm like, hey, man. Thanks for thanks for hanging out with us or thanks for hanging in there. I mean, you had to bail fifteen seconds in. Like, you had to hate the opening song and that's the most redeeming thing we have going for us Right. To have stayed in. So here's the deal here. That's right. So I'm gonna tell you this. You no longer will get my thanks for for hanging in for roughly forty five seconds. I'm gonna raise the bar on your life. You have to do better than that to get my appreciation. I always thought you were being like, you haven't listened to the show last week and here you're back again. It's a more broader thing. Bigger context of Yeah. Thanks for having hanging out together on the life of the path. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I suppose took it. After this interchange, you've come off a little jerky. No. I'm just saying it is no credit to you to like, you you people accidentally microwave things longer than the opening of the show, which I provided. Thanks. You know, I do you guys stop the microwave at, like, one second so it doesn't beep at you? I've done that. Yeah. I don't know what kind of accomplishment that gives a guy, but, like, I it's a I mean, it's still I'll show you. It's pretty consistent. You won't tell me when the end? Yeah. Don't beep at me. I got this I'll tell you when it's over. And it makes a small beep when you hit the stop button. Yeah. Right. You know? So I'm not really sure. I don't know. The psyche of a man is just it's beyond recognition to me. This is what happens. Like, we we don't do major things anymore, and so we win minor battles against the microwave. That's also true. Yeah. Yeah. You're right. That's awesome because, like, women can't figure this out, but neither can we. Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. I don't know why I do. Oh, I do half the stuff I do? Yeah. I don't know why I will get on a lawn mower to go check the mail. It literally is faster for me to walk over there and do it, but I thought I wanna walk over and do it. So I'll go to the garage the opposite direction, fire up the mower, and drive it out there

because I have one. Yeah. Can you can? Yeah. Here's what we got going on the show this week. Yeah. So we there was an article written by a guy what what was it? Nine Marks? Yeah. I sent I sent it you. It's hold on. I won't be able to pull it up. You I told you the Internet doesn't cooperate with me. It's by Colton Corter. Yeah. So there was a guy who wrote he basically said he went through and listened to Colton Corter. What what did he say? Four hours of sermons from like Eighteen hours of sermons in America's biggest churches. Okay. Yes. And basically to see, you know, what what are the takeaways of what's being taught in America's biggest churches. I I saw a number of folks sounds like he got a lot of negative negative feedback from that. Of course. I see there's a group of pastors that that Dan and I are part of. They didn't particularly enjoy this article either. I actually thought I actually no. Again, coming from a different context, I I suppose maybe, but, like, I I thought there was some value in it. So maybe we'll touch on the four things that he took away. I think it'll be interesting.

Second of all, I the aforementioned trip, I was reminded of we were talking about humility last week

and I was listening to some podcasts and almost every one of the the episodes on the stuff I listened to kept hammering home. Hey, man. Like the things that you feel like you trust in especially when it comes to like human behavior or human memory and things like that. Like, boy, you just gotta be careful on how on on what you stand on. And so I'll give you some examples from that. It was just it was just a reinforcement and a good reminder to me that like,

you're dealing with very fallible humanity here. Even in even in the things that we are like so super confident in, we're probably not shouldn't be as confident in those as we believe ourselves to be. And and the problem is is is is the roundup of that conversation unfortunately is me trying to fight with like, I feel like I'm constantly and maybe it's the show in general is trying to constantly pull into peep pull people into maybe a sense of of greater sense of uncertainty in our humanity while also pressing us for greater certainty in in in in God's providence, in in in the nature of who God is and our trustworthiness in him.

And it's it's it's not intentionally trying to put it so that you look at the world in such an ambiguous terms that you're like, I don't even know what to do anymore. Like, I'm it's not what I'm going for. But like, if if we suffer as a humanity, it is way more so out of arrogance than it is out of wonder and and and humility. And so I think that's why that theme keeps coming up for me. And the more I learned about about kind of the frailty of the of the human mechanisms, the more at least introduces caution. Mhmm. The the notion of what we believe to be certain. We just we should be careful with and that starts to then cause us to guard our words. It causes to guard our actions a little bit to slow down

because our our notion of human certainty just isn't probably isn't tenable. So anyway, got some examples from there I thought were pretty good. And then we have and then what you got some advice on Dear Life in the Path? Yeah. Yeah. Think we do. I think that's everything we got. Okay. So, Mike, let's let's start with this let's start with this article. Alright. Do want do you want me to read the whole I think it's pretty long winded. The the nature is and I I can't remember how we measured the top guys, but like Okay. I'll give you the gist of it. Okay. It says

the article says, what's the preaching like in America's biggest churches? Question mark. That's the question I set out to answer. I listen to four sermons each from the country's nine biggest evangelical churches, and then he list the churches. Okay. With an average sermon length of about thirty minutes, these reflections are based on approximately eighteen total hours of material, or two Sundays from Ben.

Okay. Alright. I listened, nobody gets that joke because I'm the only one that goes to church the bin, but as I listened, I found several common threads. These threads will make up most of this article, A State of American Preaching. If you will, most of it will be negative. But first, what positive feedback would I give these sermons? Okay. Let's have it. Several pastors mentioned in the importance of diversity in the church. Chris Hodges made sure to let his congregation know that God values unity amid diversity in his sermon, No Pay, No Gain. He highlighted the work of Martin Luther King Junior and called for their church to cultivate unity and diversity across racial ethic lines. Mhmm.

During his first sermon in the series of blah blah blah blah, so and so told his hearers not to put their hope in any party, presumably to have them set their eyes on God instead. Here, their emphasis on the goodness of unity amidst diversity should challenge us. As some in my theological circles warn against speaking a word about race and ethnicity, I was proud that this fella and those who are like him mentioned God's good design for a diverse people. That's it.

We'll continue. But that's a given, and never should not have been a given. Yeah. And so anybody who doesn't think that was a given, it feels odd that we have to speak to it. Yeah. I mean, I suppose the question is is like, is it odd that this dude felt like this is a surprise for that to be happening? Do I have to remind you that God created all ethnicities and races and mentions no barriers barriers or type of segregation in any part of his story whatsoever.

That we'll all be around the throne? Yeah. Yeah. Great. Yeah. And so, mean, agreed that I suppose that you have to address issues that are going on in our world, but like, as Christians, this should've never even occurred to you that it was an issue in the first place. Yeah. And then someone would warn you against speaking about it. Yeah. I don't know what his theology is. But yeah. Why? Why not? Mean, here's the thing. It's one of those crazy things where it's like God didn't speak to it. It's because God didn't speak against it. He didn't have to speak to it because he didn't speak to it at all in the thing that you're coming up with. Right? When people would say, like, we have we have, you know, you probably shouldn't bring up, racial disparity or discrimination or whatever because God doesn't specifically speak to it. You're right. God doesn't mention it ever doing any type of racial disparity or or ethnic separations at all. And so, like, the fact that you've caused it,

God didn't have to speak to it because it wasn't part of God's design. He had no intention of it. So I it's weird that's weird to me. Yeah. I guess that was my question is that, like, is it is the the the surprise that that's happening something that has to do with this the the the writer's background, this dude's background, and, like, actually, actually, this isn't a problem? Or is it really something where you should be surprised and be like, well, I'm glad they did that? It does feel weird that, like I guess I haven't thought about it because I I don't listen to a lot of topical sermons, I guess. But, like, to the point where someone has to go, look, we're gonna have to address this because people don't know where God stands on this. Right? Like, that would be the reason to have to talk about it at a Sunday morning gathering of agreed upon Christians. And so like, listen, just in case you're wavering a little or you're on the other side of this thing, God supports none of this. So I mean, you'd only have like a two minute sermon. I can't even give you bible verses because God doesn't address it because it it's not an issue. Right. I mean, you're you have you have instances of like their stories like like like Acts Yeah. Where they're they're dealing with like different treatment of people.

I mean, but you also have even within the Old Testament, like you've you've got God's people's interaction and God using non Israelites and so like so it's like it's very it's very clear. Like you could put a bunch of stuff together Oh, Samaritan's care about things. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Alright. Anyway, I'm sorry. We gotta sidetrack a little bit. Yep. Yep. Yep. Once again, it's only a tick in the box to note that, like, we're devoting time to it. Like, as as we're spreading the gospel and talking to people about God and who He is and Jesus,

we're spending time on this. So just something to keep in the back of your mind. We're gonna skip names because I just think it's easier. Pastor C talked a lot about their philosophy of ministry, and while I certainly would not agree with everything that this church does, I found a few things he said to be very helpful. In one of his sermons, Pastor C said church membership is a biblical imperative and that we enter the local church through baptism. In language reminiscent of Bobby Jamison's, pastor C calls baptism the wedding ring of the church. It's how the Christian pledges themselves to the visible body of Christ. Let me let me just You want to chew on that for a minute or do you wanna speak it? No. I guess what I'm like, I'm really glad to hear someone talk about church membership. Like, I people that are overly

it just seems like an imbalance focused on like church polity. Mhmm. Like, oh, man. I really hope he speaks to the importance of membership. Like, is is this your crank? Was it what is what is the deal? Is this what you care about? Like, I mean, here's the thing. I get it. I I I get it. And it's I don't know. I've never maybe it's just me. I've never approached something like someone gonna teach something where I'm like, boy, I hope it speaks to the structure of something. I'm like, I I want

are they gonna teach about Jesus here? Like, am I gonna hear about Yahweh today? Am I gonna learn more about him and his character, understand what that means for me and my and my work? And I get I get that that expresses itself somewhere. I just it just seems like a weird thing to get turn a light bulb on and be like, boy, I'm really glad they brought that up. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe go I mean, go to the class. Certainly Thursday night, talk about this. Go to the Thursday night class. That's right. It seems like an individual conversation, or like even have a congregation, as the guy that's leading me,

he says, look, we do have criteria for membership. Just know that we have it. We've prayed over it. It's in place. If you got questions about it, come let me know, and we'll talk about it. But it does seem once again, it's something that we're talking about on a Sunday morning. Maybe it's just because it's an open handed item for me. Like, not whether you should be, like, a church member, but, like, some of the nuances of how people decide who is and how they do it with their church, when they get a transfer from another church or whatever. It's an open handed item to me. And you've got especially if you're only only doing you're thirty minutes, not eighteen hours,

I mean, you've limited time here. Right, right. Okay. Okay. Where, let's see. Excuse me. It's how the Christian pledges themselves to the visible body of Christ. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Pastor C eschews our twin

cultures of individualism and consumerism when he states simply that we can't be the church on our own. We need other Christians. Well, I mean, you best throw down the membership items in a little bit. Where I sitting across the table from these pastors, these are the kinds of encouragements I would offer. I would also offer the following pieces of constructive criticism. Whiz bang. Here's where it comes. Here it comes. Number one, the best

assumed, most of the time, it's entirely absent. Let me begin with the most important observation. In 36 sermons, the good news of Jesus Christ's life, death, and resurrection was unclear 36 times. Often, some or all of these facets of the Christian Gospel were left out. Quotes no gospel became a common note. Here's an answer to the question you're probably asking. What content is necessary in order to communicate the Gospel? That's a good question. We're not gonna look at I don't mean to say various elements of the gospel weren't occasionally mentioned. There were. A dude mentions in in his sermon series that faith is believing in what Jesus did for you, carrying the cross, rising from the dead, etcetera. But none of these elements are articulated or explained. It's unclear exactly why we need Jesus to do anything for us. Furthermore, it's unclear exactly what he did by doing the things that he mentioned.

Isolated phrases here and there without much reference to how the Bible puts them together was the norm. I'm gonna stop it right there. It depends on what your view of what a Sunday morning service is supposed to be doing. Yeah. Who's audience? Yeah. Right? Like, if it is a body of believers, and let's just stop it there, of people who know Jesus, I find it a waste of time to radiate It bounces off my ears anymore. Right? Like, if you start to overuse

long, flowing descriptions of Jesus, it seems to me like you're filling and don't know. Mhmm. Right? And so, like, I already believe that. That's what my group of people is doing together on a Sunday morning. It's probably unnecessary to rehash

out every time. Now, it's not I don't know if you get to leave it out completely. It's the whole reason we're meeting. And so, like, obviously, we're gonna talk about it. But I don't know that you have to go through every sinew of why it is necessary. Now, if you believe that the Sunday morning service is to help introduce the Gospel to random visitors that came in, then you're right. You you you probably should be chewing through it. Yeah. And I might say in their context, and this like if you're a lot of the churches, and I recognize a lot of the names that are in the list, like, they got the size they were because they otherwise set up a situation that that was a comfortable place for new people to come check it out. That's what they were aiming for. Correct. And to the extent you are aiming for that, then I think you do risk doing those folks a disservice by having not articulated that in some means or now they probably have literature around. I'm sure, like, I'm sure there's things in the bulletin and Right. And typically on a Sunday morning in these type of churches, they they they have really mastered the their they have a a method, you know. It's like Yeah. Purpose of the sermon is to to peak some interest or speak to the common believers.

But if you piques your interest, they they send you somewhere. There's a next step. Mhmm. Hey, go to that room over there and they'll tell you more and they get you in the pipeline and that's where all the gospel and and all that happens usually is just not on Sunday morning. It's it's Yeah. And and I I don't know if It's like a way to get to a vacation club. Well, kind of. Right? Like, I mean, it's just organizing the thoughts to say, look, the big room is for milk. We hand out milk here. Mhmm. Right? Like, the meat is in the other rooms, or or or you can talk to that guy about the meat. So it just depends on what you think the goal of a Sunday morning meeting is. And I don't have a pro or negative or a thought or whatever you wanna do. Like, think God uses all that stuff, and so I don't actually can't tell you what it's supposed to I mean, here's here's Ben Ben does. Yeah. I do.

I do. Here's the thing. This goes maybe this goes back to that conversation about the fallibility of humanity. The one thing that I know for certain that changes the world is is the good news. Like that's the truth. The one thing I know for certain is teaching Bible. That's what I that's what I know actually makes a difference. Everything else is floating around on my ideas. Hey hey, is this a good thing that'll hit people? Is this things that people are thought thinking about? Are these things that attract new people into this thing? And some of this just goes like, this is getting more personal than maybe it has to but like, it just plays my weakness. I'm not very good at anticipating what people like. Like, I was not very good but but but

even even in times where I've thought through and thought like, okay, like this can be learned. Certainly, there's people who study these things and there's people who are very good at this that you can kind of kind of mimic and stuff. I every time it comes back to me that like like it it's God's good word that communicates good news and that's what changes the world. And like, it's what you win people with is what you win them to. And and I do think there is a risk

and like, a guy with 10,000 people's church will laugh at my 50 for having said this. But like I think there is a risk for somehow not giving people

a clear articulation of what it is that you're inviting them into. And I don't like, they can't understand the full bible at once. But here's the thing, like, I'll be teaching the bible to the same group of people that I'm around probably for the next fifty years and I might not even get all the way through it. So like I get it but like I I intend to give it every go that I can. And I so I I think of this I I just call it as a risk in that context like if you're if you're designed to try to bring people in, there are there are personality types that won't take the net that next step. Not because the program isn't good. It's not because you don't teach a great version and clear understanding of what the gospel is. But there's personality types that won't ever show up to the second room. You know what I'm saying? Yep. So I'm sure some of these these guys are totally familiar with the risk. Like, here's the things. We do guys a disservice who are in organizations like this to think that they've never thought of this and that they needed a guy who's got 50 guys in a house church who's going, hey, did you realize that teaching the gospel changes the world? Like, that's not the I get it. Mhmm. But like, I I think

it could be as just as very simple view of the world but like I to to for those numbers to be true for thirty six hour or like 36 sermons or whatever, if you've not had a clear articulation of the gospel for for groups that are pretty good at bringing in new people in any of those sermons, like, yeah, I mean, it's a caution. Well, the the larger the church, the more the purpose of the Sunday morning experience is to bring in more people. Yep. It's all geared toward that. And so and even going back to the sermon planning,

you're trained to to develop sermon series that that hit felt needs. Mhmm. Boy, I wish I could raise my children. So look look at demographics and say, are people asking out there? Yep. I don't know how to raise my kids. Well, there's children series coming up, you know. And it's all about how to improve as a person. It's not necessarily bad stuff. It's a biblical stuff but it's not it's not gospel. Yeah. So they're they're hoping to get you in that pipeline to to to do gospel, but it's also attracting people who are already Christians that they're they want a better show. Yeah. They want a better environment, more programs.

Oftentimes, a lot of the people coming in these bigger churches are from smaller churches. Yeah. And Do you think that they're not that this is actually gonna lead right to my exact question. Do you think that, like, they wouldn't see the numbers they get if they did not address those issues in the way that you're talking about? The felt needs thing. Right? Right. Right. Probably not. I mean, because a lot of people are, especially in the beginning, very surface y. Like, I'm just trying to figure out how to figure out how to have a better marriage and there's a marriage series, so I'll go to that. And that's not a bad actually, it's not bad. Yeah. It's but that's why they'll send mailers out because, hey, this this their big family and marriage series. That's the thing is does it feel wonky because it's it's not organic? Because like that's exactly the way that I I live the gospel at my house because I I want people to notice the difference in the way that my marriage works, the way that my kids are raised, the way that I conduct myself, and then have them go, well, what is that? That's that's exactly how we leave how we live the gospel out. Which I think is yeah. And that's the thing is that this is where this this is is difficult for me is because, to to Dan's point, like, I don't disagree with any of that. I I I like I I think it it does matter. It does show in your life. But like,

there was so here's here's we've we've had we've been trying to help a couple younger folks out who just had a baby and they're trying to transition to different parts of their life. And like one of the and like, you know, it's just been a different environment for them and I and I think it's been really really nice. And like, I was kinda talking to one of them and I said, look, I just just for clarity because because we've been helping them and people from the church just showed up with stuff. I said, do you know why those people showed up with stuff? I said, oh, they're nice people. I'm like, yeah. They love Jesus and Jesus told them to love you. That's why they're do you know, it's it's not that they hate you or they wouldn't do these like, are nice people. I said, but like, at at the end of the day, like, it's important to them, to these people that came to help and the broad stuff and it's important to me for you to know,

like, we said yes to this because we love Jesus. That's why I said, yeah. And that's why people brought stuff by because like, although the the diapers are good and the meal is probably good, like, the change through Jesus is even better. It's the best thing I have to offer. The the the relationship with Jesus is is better than the marriage advice. The relationship with Jesus is better than raising your kids. And and you do get all of that. It's this is where it's it's tough. Yeah. Because you can have all of that. But like, I it's it's that I wouldn't expect that number to be

a 100% of somebody did like a clear articulation. Because like it tends from I think normally, like you it shows up once every three months where like something just hits home and said, look, look, let me let's remind you. Let's recenter you to make sure you realize what was done here or what this means for you. Because people do forget and they do treat it casually. And so like, I I think it comes up naturally. I I think I would be I would I am surprised to have a come as non, no no clear articulation across all of them because I it's the it's the most powerful thing you have to offer. It's the one thing they could come out of here as better husbands and better fathers

and better workers and more confident and and not have Jesus and we who have not done the mission of the church. And so Mhmm. I'm not saying this is where like some reformers would come in, hey, look, today we're gonna talk about church polity and we're gonna make sure you know how dreadful of a sinner you are and probably a pretty graphic description of how Jesus died on the cross. I'm not saying that. I think that's a misrepresentation of the holistic nature of scripture too. But like, I I would say that if if if the good news does not have does not dominate your content Yeah. Because I I don't know how you can teach like how to raise children without the gospel. But there's a context I don't know how to do that without Jesus. Right. Right. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And and I think that's that's that's the risk. And like, it's good that people are there. But if if they're there and they don't leave with the one thing that they desperately need, even if they got a lot of other good things,

then we're not we're not being the church. And so and again, this is this please have grace for how we're talking about this and probably me specifically. I've not met these guys. I don't I'm sure they love Jesus. Yeah. I'm sure their church is doing a lot of really really great work. But like, I think you do run the risk from a from a teaching perspective of of allowing the ends to justify the means and and and where where we'll be faithful in the means guy. And the and the means you could control is did I share the good news today with people who I drove drove in to hear it? I've kinda looked at some of this stuff over the past several years. The the the style of preaching and and communicating is changed. You know, it's just not different. And so or it is different. Yeah. And sometimes I wonder

if, like, sometimes they they just seem I'm gonna misrepresent this. Seem slick. Yeah. They're very smooth. And I'm I'm not saying that in a negative way. They're just you you get done and think, I'm not sure what they said, but there was really clever They're sounds like they're they're great at it. Moments, you know. Yep. And I'm like, but I don't know what happened. You you know? And I'm more of a bread and butter, like, you know, hey, pick up your shoes, you know, whatever the the point is. You know? Like, everybody knows, oh, you're supposed to pick your shoes up. Right. And and they would have some little flowery thing about

laces and Yeah. Flowers and you know, and at the time, they probably said the same thing in a different way. So I don't know if it's me as an older guy Right. Not communicating to this generation. No. I think that's That's what asked myself. No. I think that's the risk, though, is if you walk away from a sermon and there you find yourself on Tuesday going, what was that thing that he said? Mhmm. Right? There's almost a miss right there. Right? It's almost like, what was the thing that Dan said that was he phrased it perfectly. And it ends up that, once again, the 30 sermon, some of that is

a cheap parlay on the pastor's account. Some of that is people won't stand for more than thirty minutes. A lot of dudes who love Jesus will be more than happy to talk about Jesus for hours. The congregation won't stand for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's your fault, congregation. That's like we were talking about some of the media bias stuff. This is your fault. You will reach a longer angle. You won't sit there for longer than half an hour. You start getting and you're like, I gotta get up, blah blah blah, make your point. But the thing is, if their whole sermon is full of quippy takeaways,

that is never the Holy Spirit, right? So what we're talking about, I shouldn't say that. I'm not saying that their sermon doesn't have the Holy Spirit in it. What I'm saying is, if we're talking about making a good, solid marriage, the Holy Spirit has to be present in there. It doesn't matter how many quips people give you on Sunday of what a marriage is supposed to look like. Without the Holy Spirit in there as an intercessor, without two people that are

submitting themselves to the good news of Jesus Christ, that good marriage won't ever show up. It just will not make it. And so the problem is what happens is they take the quippy stuff and then they pile it on their marriage and then never actually devote it to Christ and they go, not only does this marriage suck, but Jesus didn't help me at all. I tried to fix it with all the quippies and it didn't actually do anything. And no one actually surrendered

and gave up and let Jesus do and let the Holy Spirit do. And so I think that's ultimately the danger, without listening to any of these sermons. Once again, it's just a big philosophical discussion because everybody wants to say, How can I take this widget that I know will change everybody's life and get it to the masses? Right? And so everybody takes their product and goes, How do I advertise it well? And with all the goal of making money and making it successful, and like, as ambassadors of the good news of Jesus Christ, we're like, we have this thing and I want people to listen to it, and so how do I get them to at least even give it a shot? And some of our churches, you know, have come up with this plan and this is what they do. And maybe it is a giant room full of milk. And if we can just get them to taste the milk and realize kind of what the whole thing offers, maybe we can get them back for the meat. So I think that's the broad point. I like that as an example, is if through our good intentions, say we have the good news. I just wanna figure out how I can get it shared. And so I go out and I start advertising or like, maybe I get the the better band or the the nicer looking auditorium. But here's the thing, your goal was to share good news. So if at any point, any of those mechanisms

stop you from having actually communicated good news and got you into something else like that you put a barrier unintentionally or a step between someone in good news, then I think we've missed it. I think we I think we've we've missed it. And there's it's I'm I'm not saying there's there's there's probably plenty of ways for large organizations to be able to to share good news in a massive way and they're really good at advertising and they're really good in getting people to come in and like they get they're they're graded at getting visitors in and and the supplemental programs and they're all fantastic and I'm certain there's a way to do it and that someone's probably rocking it.

But the first question is is that I intended to share good news. Is that happening? Yeah. Right. Did the want for the milk when they got there six months later turn out to be, woah, woah, woah. I see you're trying to move us to the meat. We're here for the milk. Mhmm. Right? And then and and then you can't move because the masses won't move off the milk. Right? If the masses are are are controlling what direction you're allowed to speak to, even if it comes having to speak like, hey, we're gonna have to take a break from this sermon series right now because we need to talk about x because it's what's going on in town. Maybe that's a good idea. Maybe it's wholly unnecessary.

Maybe you should just step forward on the gospel that you got. Maybe you shouldn't. I don't know. You what I'm saying? Like, that's knowing your people. But I think that basically what we're summing it up to is there's an inherent risk in, basically, the way that you to presenting Sunday morning teaching time without the Gospel, without the Good News. There's an inherent risk because if it wasn't important enough for you to bring it up, then most people will take that in as it's not a big deal. And you cannot get through Paul's letters without him bringing it up.

Oddly, even in places where you're like, what happened? That seemed unnecessary to hit me over the head with, but he doesn't. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. And I don't want, like, I it's not of all the things the church does, it's not like the sermon is the is the be all end all, but but, like, you you have people's attention. They're sitting there listening to you speak for thirty minutes. Like, what what other important things do you have to talk about? This is the good the good news that Jesus has got to be in there. Now a lot of things with like the the the the the marriages and the raising kids and stuff going on the world around you, it provides context to that message. I think that's the point. Right, Dan? Is that like like all those things help us to understand the gospel better because we under we get we start to get relationships like father God and like forgiving children like God forgives us because we would. We like, oh, yes. Of course, wouldn't hold that grudge. Now you can now start to understand where God's forgiveness comes from.

And like the brokenness of relationships and the opposite of what that is for God and our need for redemption because we look at a world that's falling. Like, they provide the context to get to the good news. But if you start doing all that stuff, not as context but they're the main thing, I think that's where the break is. Think I that's where stuff starts to break. Mhmm. It continues. We're still under the subheading, the gospel at best assume. Most of the time, it's entirely absent. In his sermon, Whatever, by pastor D, he provides a happy exception. He mentions the doctrine of doctrine of imputation, stating that we aren't worthy of God and are in need of a balancing of our account. I've been a Christian for a very long time. I've never heard of the doctrine of imputation. Righteousness.

You guys do you guys hear this? Yeah. Okay. I would just say, just for just for something to know, fellow pastors, 98% of your people ain't ever gonna remember that nor care. Using the phrase we aren't worthy of God and are in need of balancing our account, if that's the point you wanna make, I would just make that and skip the name of the doctrine because nobody to the definition. Yeah. Nobody cares. Pastor D goes on to say that in the Gospel, we get Jesus' assets while Jesus' receives our debts. That's as close to the Gospel that any of these sermons gets. And even in this instance, the true things pastor D mentions are isolated from the rest of the truths that make up the gospel message. Neither God's holy judgment, sin, nor repentance is mentioned. But here's what's even more disheartening.

In his next sermon, pastor D says, the Jesus who accomplished all of this for us lays down all his divinity, conspicuously missing from his explanation of what he calls substitutionary propitiatory blood bought salvation I'd leave your sermon already. Yeah. You try to make me feel dumb.

Is the response one must have to this message in order to be saved, which leads us to our next observation. Okay. I'm ready. Two. Repentance rarely comes across as something urgent and necessary. Instead, it's either optional or not worth mentioning at all. Repentance was mentioned only a handful of times in the sermons I listened to. Pastor Well, isn't isn't it funny that say the good news was hardly mentioned, but the but the repentance came up a little?

Yeah. Like, what are you repenting to? I I don't know. Maybe I'm a little bit suspicious of his evaluation. Most people don't go, hey, you gotta you gotta turn. You gotta repent from this thing. Into what, sir? I'm not willing to speak of it. No. Let's talk about propitiation. Well, yeah. He he likes the term. So maybe he's upset that they did not say repent, but maybe the whole sermon was, hey, how about you change the way you're doing your marriage? Oh, right. Which is repentance. Right. Right? Yeah. I think we might be getting caught in the glossary. He's a glossary man. Yeah. Okay. Here's what he says. Repentance was mentioned only a handful of times in the sermons I listened to. We'll call him pastor f, mentions repentance as a way to grow into Christian maturity. He says his daughter repented once, and she was healed from migraines because the open door the enemy had in her life had been closed by doing so. Pastor g That's all I needed. When speaking of the prodigal son, quips that the prodigal wasn't repentant, just hungry.

In explaining how brokenness precedes precedes breakthroughs, Pastor g mentions repentance but doesn't explain what it means or what it looks like to actually repent. In fact, he hints that nominal Christianity, what he calls fire insurance Christianity, while not optimal, is really all you need. Yeah. I mean, this does sniff, like like, this this is a little bit legalistic.

Yeah. Yeah. It sniffs that way a little to me. The prodigal wasn't repentant, just hungry. Yeah. I mean, that's cute. Sure is. Jesus rolls out this week's parable just to say, you're just hungry. I mean, hunger did send him back home. Really? Okay. I mean, he says

I mean, like so here's the question. Let's take that example. Is he goes to his dad and said, I've sinned against you and sinned against heaven. Right? I mean, it feels like Hire me. Hire me. Yep. Right. And he's he's he's humbled himself. He very much

the the what got him into this problem was arrogance and selfishness. Mhmm. He showed back up in such a way that lacks arrogance and selfishness. He still seems like a pretty good demonstration of repentance to me. True. And the guy that is that is pointing out against that or the guy that says he's just hungry, that's the older brother, right, in the field that don't wanna hear nothing of it that goes, yeah. He hasn't changed a lick of nothing, which he's just out of money, dad. You know you know what? And I had not noticed this before, but like, like, I I get it. We we tend to we tend to focus on the son and not the second one.

But like in the context of which Jesus tells that story on the things that are going around it, his main point is the second kid. Yeah. Is is that that's the main like like, the story if you pull the story completely out of where Jesus tells it and what he tells it around, or at least where the gospel writers put it, their intent is to focus on the second kid. Oh, think so. I think it's because most people are the second kid. Mhmm. It's a classic example of reading your bible and you're like, I'm the prodigal son. I I was wayward at a point. You know, like, everyone sees themselves as the first guy, but like, I mean, you're always the second dude. Always. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's because like and you you go check it, like, it always falls within teaching of which he's talking to Israel. Mhmm. Israel's not the prodigal here.

Israel is the second second son going We're We're the Gentiles. Yeah. We're the prodigal. Yes. That's why yeah. We recognize ourselves there. But, like, in the in Jesus' context, he's mostly telling the story when surrounded by judgment upon Israel talk. That's the prime part of the story. Mhmm. Anyway, that's that's why that example is stupid. Right? Because I didn't turn to Christianity as a Gentile heathen because I'm hungry. You know, because I couldn't fulfill anything else. Right? Right? That is not the reason I went. You tried it on your own. It didn't work. I tried it on my own. It didn't work. I went, boy, that farmer guy seems to got he's straightened it out, and his other son's out there working. He eats. Me eats. I wanna eat. Yeah. See see, this is where this is where I get irritated because, like, you sacrificed a proper telling of biblical story for a sweet crip like he was he was hungry. You're wrong. And that's fine. You're wrong. That's bad exegesis. We're we're almost point three. Sorry. Hold on. The last one was, furthermore, the pastors of these churches rarely spoke like they were conscious that there were people in the building who were actively on their way to hell until they turned from their sins and trusted in Christ for salvation.

Humans are never described as being in willful rebellion against God, and so sinfulness is described almost as a neutral happen happenstance, something that ought to be corrected by this or that, but need not be overly dolled over. So there's a couple things about that. So I would say that, again, given these this is this is tough. This is this is what's difficult. Your first century church was not talking to people who were kicking tires, Just like the Chinese church wasn't. Like, people kick tires following Jesus around. And and even when people were giving when when when Peter or Paul or somebody was like doing these broad

speeches somewhere, there are that's also a context in which people like didn't know and we're hearing for a first time. But if you wanna think about like your your Sabbath or or Sunday gatherings, like, these were intent these were only Christians in the room. Alright? So like, our context is different where like, our blend of when the Christians get into a room is the same building of which all the non Christians are also invited. And so like, it's not a really an easy balance. It's it's not a like, it'd be almost easier if you're like, look, Christians meet at nine. The open air, everyone could come. Yeah. The tire kicker is 10:30. Yeah. It's like 10:30 is what the sign says. Everyone who goes to the church and who follows Jesus shows up at nine. Something like that, you know. But like but that isn't our context. I would say for these guys, this most definitely isn't their context. And I would say you do have to take responsibility that you've set up your organization

to be one that's super friendly to people who are interested. And if but if you're gonna do that, like, again, it goes back to the first point is that you've got to be you gotta give them the one thing that's worth offering. Everything else is just it's a question is whether you're cool venue or like whether you're a good speaker. Like, the thing that you're that you can offer them that that doesn't is not offered anywhere else if you're not doing that, then you're failing them and you bear that particular burden because no one will ever wander into my house church that they wouldn't even know where we're at. We move.

A few people this has happened. Few people may wander into to to Pathway Church in Johnson on a Sunday. Sure. Yeah. But but like a thousand are gonna wander into Rick Warren's church or Steven Furtick's church or like, you know, like, you you you intended for that. You sent out mailers for that. You put a billboard for that. And so, boy, like, I would that's a high responsibility and a great great opportunity. And if if if if the gospel presentation is not a part of that like, I mean, I don't know if four sermons is enough, maybe eight to 12. Well, mean, can I listen to your Yeah? I thought that's Can I listen to your last years of sermons

and know more about your church or know more about Jesus Christ? Right? Like,

I start in any place in preaching history and listen from February to February and go, I've learned enough about who God is, what He's done, the active living work of the Holy Spirit, and I'm in. Or do I show up Sunday to Sunday going, I can't wait to hear the knowledge this man has on this subject? Japan.

Okay. Good. Marriage is down. Kids are down. How to deal with work relationships? Down. Right? Like, am I trying to fill my life with quipping knowledge? And if I go from March to March and that's what I get, then you didn't help me, right? You made me feel better about myself, but you didn't help me. Which is I think what this guy's getting at is that like, hey, if March to March, you can like verifiably say, look, I'm a better person. We're giving out bigger cups of milk. But I'm not a what's not it's not even like

it's not even like gospel milk. Like it's chocolate milk. Like it's just like the gospel doesn't go down as sweet as chocolate milk. Is this a skill? And this is it's it's just it's it's it's it's almost feels chicken and egg. But but again, I think it has the same theme which is like, you you should be a better husband. You should be a better father as as the gospel transforms you. But like, again, if we're if we're it doesn't feel like behavior modification because we we we moved on from the eighties and nineties like, don't do this. Don't do this to do this. But the do this is aren't necessarily biblical do this is. There'd be better person do this is. And so like it's still behavior modification.

We just our psychology told us we should stop slapping people on the hand and we should encourage them. We should do the birthday cards. But like if you're still if your primary focus is still behavior modification and not gospel transformation, then I think you're we're doing people a disservice. Mhmm. You may be helping their lives and we may feel and it may feel positive, but like, we it is a long game here and it's a very precise one. And I think we're doing disservice. Okay. Got two more. Do you wanna go through them or do you wanna you wanna hold this list for next week? No. Just hit them hit them real quick. Here we go. Number three, while the prosperity gospel is absent,

its shadow lurks in the background. Okay. At least two of the churches with names had a sermon or sermons on the subject of winning. Pastor H defines winning this way, to find God's will for your life and accomplish it.

What's what's his win for this year? A 100,000 social media followers so that his spiritual influence can spread. Oh, man. Here's the deal. I can get on over with the first one. If God has the direction for your life and you submit to it, like, that seems like winning. That's a win. Yeah. Fine. God I'm in with. For your life and accomplish it. Yep. Steven had a you know, God had a will for Steven's life. He followed it. Yeah. I mean, again, it's as long as you like, Steven goes winning while they're throwing rocks at him, as long as that you can maintain that prospect Yeah. Yeah, you're still good here. Yeah. We don't have any problem. I hope I don't know if he gave that example. Probably not. No. His example was the 100,000 social media followers so that a spiritual influence can spread. Yeah. But here's the deal. If if your spiritual influence is not if it's not passing on the good news, then you shouldn't have any more influence. Hey, guys. That's I Core point. Like, continues to pervade.

Pastor f go h g goes on to say in his sermon that winning is a biblical commandment. Nearly all the sermons Shout shout win. Don't worry about repentance. Just win. Here's the deal though. Like, again, if I accept his definition, let's just say for for glory's sake, I'm I say, yeah. Yeah. Following God's will for your life, I'm praying that his will be done. And so again, I'm fine. Fine. There's no reason to tussle over this man's word just because you think it sniffs like pop psychology. Yeah. I get it. As long as it sits in the right context, I can get on board with it. But that's what he said. It's more in the shadows. It wasn't this one wasn't upfront. It was like, it's kind of a little bit the prosperity gospel there, but unnecessarily.

You could go there. If the I suppose if the only example you gave was the 100,000 social media likes, I mean, that is the worst freaking example ever. I might hit him with the two by four, this character. It's like the worst. This place is the most shallow basic thing of of of which we struggle with around here on what people do. So I hate that example. But like, if you balanced it with if you told Steven as one example and that one is the second and you said, look, could be either one. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I I get I can't get on board with that. I don't know if he selectively told that or if that's the only option. Nearly all the sermons I listened to had a decidedly cheery tone. I also heard a lot about miracles, not necessarily as an implication of a decided theological framework, but rather as a rhetorical device to justify the sermon's positive outlook on the future. Let me be clear, I don't remember a single sermon that espoused an explicit prosperity gospel. No sowing seeds, no reaping financial harvests. But if you listened in as a visitor, would it be hard not to come away thinking that God wants you to live a happy life full of relational, mental, and emotional wins. Whether the preacher referred I mean, he didn't say he doesn't. Whether the preacher referred to winning or not, listening to these sermons could make one think that Christianity is most interested in curbing our bad habits so that we can all be better versions of ourselves. Yeah. So I think that's the that that's the clarification is that if you don't and it it comes down to context and dictionaries

is that people people who especially who are are either new to Christianity or don't know don't know Christ, when you use language, they will take it in in their own context. Right? So unless you redefine winning, unless you provide the biblical context to how we should think of what it looks like to to be better people. Cause I think you could

preach a notion of that. Here's what better looks like but it's in humility. It's faithful service to God and it can produce the fruits of the kingdom like joy, peace beyond understanding. Like these are like the hope where it doesn't belong. These are all things that can come from that but they they do require a contextual understanding of that like what what the world calls success and what the Bible calls success are different. That's why you teach the Bible to for recognition of like, what did it look like to succeed while dying on someone else's behalf? Dying when someone asked you to renounce Christ and you said no. Like that's success. And so like

the risk is is that you you use phrases and words and context or or things that otherwise I might be able to agree to but I have to assume that you use the Bible to help people understand the context of which the Bible uses them. To the extent that you miss the context, people will digest them from a worldly perspective and then they will just follow basically follow the worldly gospel around it. And so that that I think that's the strongest risk is but it takes you have to teach that. You can't you can't quit phrase the biblical context. It requires someone to teach it. And and and frankly,

that's like it's hard to it's hard to do. It's like if you're gonna introduce what it looks like to win, the question is like what does the Bible mean by if you look for winners in the Bible, what do they look like? Death, death, sacrifice, death. Right? Like Right. And it doesn't mean that you have to die but let's just be clear that when, like, when you think winning and when the Bible says winning, like, these are two different things and you have to teach the biblical context to be able to get that. And I think if if there's a broad point to maybe what this cat is saying,

where that lacks, people actually cannot digest it well. And that is your fault. If you know the definitions aren't the same and you ignore that, that is your fault. Number four, the use of the Bible generally fell into two categories, misuse or abuse. No. No. Every preacher utilized the Bible in one way or the other, some more than others, and others worse than some. Pastor Jay

stood out as one who consistently read the entire passage he wanted to preach. Pastor j read most of Genesis 32 in his sermon. This original pastor g said said that his church self consciously tries to base everything they do on the word of God. Most of the sermons had a main text of sorts, but the degree which the text was used varied. Narratives and parables were by far the preferred genre, and the move from text to application was usually hasty and direct. I mean, Jesus taught narratives and parables. So, like, again, you gotta be careful. And this is coming from like, I I've never done a topical

sermon. Well, it's been a long time. I'm I'm always teaching a passage passage. But, like, Jesus taught in parables and narratives. And so, like, it's not like Jesus only took the Torah around and whipped out the scroll and goes, alright. Isaiah time, sit and be learned. Like, it's how people connect with things. It's totally fine to tell parables and narratives.

Like, so you gotta be careful with that. But again, all that should serve the true thing that you're that the Bible is trying to communicate. Like, that's the that's the thing. It all should still be in service of the core thing that you wanna communicate. The the point wasn't to tell a story. Right? The point was it it allows people to entrance into a story, into a biblical concept or text or point that they may have not gotten or been able to connect with. That's why you told the story. I just happen to be bad at it. And some people are really really awesome at it and it really illuminates things and they connect back.

Some people and and these some of these folks, these pastors are like this because I have listened to a few of them that were in the list. Like, some of them are really good at telling stories but I don't know why they told me that story in the context of the big bible thing there. They're like, boy, that's a really great story. I know nothing else about Jesus or Yahweh or sin or anything about I don't know why he told that story. But they're really good at it. And so, yeah, it's it's again, it's the the question is, is everything you're doing in service of the good news or does it does it is it stand on its own where it stands on its own? It's not creating value. It still has to be in service of the thing we're here to do, to talk about, to whatever. What would hold on. I'm not gonna bring up any more of these if you're gonna keep elaborating that long. Sorry. Okay. Sorry. I'm I'm serious. He's gonna go through an example of how the Bible was used, and you're gonna get all spurned up about it. No. No. We're running out of time. I'll leave this one to Dan. Take,

for example, this man's sermon. One day at a time, Luke two is his main text. He uses the passage to make the following point. Since it took Jesus one day at a time to become who he was, we should expect the same. Author, another guy, said Rahab's story is a lesson that no matter what happened in 2019, you can be a winner in 2020. Last dude compares the Old Testament law to things we in the present can't break through. He uses Jacob wrestling with God as an opportunity to ask his listeners about the areas they were currently wrestling through. In still another sermon, this one man makes a hermeneutic move that is a paradigm

paradigmatic for the rest of the sermons I heard. He directly applies promises given to Jehoshaphat and David, assuring them of military victory to modern hearers. The application skips past the Bible storyline of fulfillment in Christ and moves directly to psychologized, antidotal advice. How do feel about that, Dan? Well, here here's the deal. You

make everybody feel better about themselves and and feel good about tomorrow and and and improve their life, but you're not saving them. You're saving their marriage, but not saving their eternal soul. You've lost something. I mean, I think there's a place for both. Some of this stuff isn't awful, but it's just like a tiny tiny part of the message. But if you're missing the point of of how God's moves in people's lives and in history and how all many of these stories led to Jesus that you're missing, you're missing it. Right.

Was the fulfillment of almost everything they just talked about. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, those weren't just random stories by random people. They were they were part of a of a of a a journey from Abraham to the Messiah. And and Right. Actually, it it could mislead you into thinking that the fulfillment is you. Yeah. Right? You are the fulfillment of all these promises. Well, I'm just like Jehoshaphat. Just like whoever he was I'm glad we talked about this, Dan. I have nothing more to add here. It's fairly uncomplicated, I'd say.

Jesus took one step at a time. You should take one step at a time. Jesus was a little baby. This is stupid. Simply put, in these sermons, men mostly mishandle the Bible. It's referenced, not revered,

alluded to, not explained, sat across from, not under. When biblical stories are there, they're commonly being co opted into the vocabulary of whatever else the preacher is trying to say about winning or breaking through or whatever. The words on the page rarely speak for themselves. I could probably agree with that. I mean, it needs here's the thing. The Bible I I I think pretty consistently, God has recognized and and gifted people to teach scripture. Like, recognizes, like, we go we go, hey, you you all should read it every day. And people are reading it every day to going, I'm I'm not catching all of this. Like, it needs it needs taught, and I think that's great. Yeah. But you do have to teach it. Well, you have to teach it. They're there for you to teach that.

To the extent that everything you're doing isn't in service to that, then I think Dan's right. You're failing them. In conclusion, the point of this project is to poke fun at these churches or indite their motivations. God alone knows the heart, and we are left simply to evaluate based on what's observable from a nose up in the air and very small glasses standpoint, dude. The point of this project is to provide a snapshot of what a large percentage of American churchgoers might hear when they darken the doors of a church building on Sunday morning. We assume that because such preaching is popular in large churches, it's often aspirational in smaller churches. My main takeaway, I believe, is to soberly reflect on the sermons we give and the sermons we listen to week in and week out. May God grant us and our churches mercy to clearly proclaim the gospel, edify the saints, and invite unbelievers into the great the greatest joy imaginable, life with God

in Christ. K. He he really falls apart at the end there, I think. He he's assuming because of these top, however many churches it was, are are doing this, that every church is doing it percentage wise. I mean, just just numbers wise, there's way more people in small churches than Yeah. Big churches. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we and like you said earlier, we speak differently in small churches. I mean, we we speak into the lives of people because we actually know their lives. Right. And we know them by name. And and it it's so no. No. We don't do this because we'd be laughed at. Yeah. Right. Yeah. They wouldn't put up with this. Yeah. In fact, the comment box would be super full. You don't get text. You get handwritten notes from Edna who goes, I don't know what's going on, Peter. Mean one step at a time? I've

been stepping for ninety years. That's right. That's right. And my ankles hurt. I got the sciatica. Yeah. He falls apart at the end there saying that, see, see, this was for everybody because these are what the cool kids are doing. So you're all doing it. I know it. You're not like me. I'm smart. I think that, like like, obviously, I'm the I'm the only non pastor of the group. You know? And so at the end of the day, I believe I'm not saying that

the idea was pretty good, actually. What are we actually preaching for the Gospel? If I was to say, people are trying to find it and say, What do I need to know about Jesus? These eight podcasts are gonna show up and these churches are, what's going on? Know, and be like, I wanna know what other people are hearing about Jesus, and so let's figure it out. And so it was a cool idea. It reads to me as being arrogant. Right? Like, guy here's the thing. I don't know any of these pastors. I know a couple of them. I've heard of a couple of them. Less than you guys have probably heard of them. Right? But, like, I have I have

waded into the pool of assuming things about people that I don't know that I will never do again. I have no idea if Pastor H on this list, I mean, literally spends two hours in the morning on his face praying, right? And these are the sermons that God has laid upon his heart and he's being completely faithful with them, and I show up as an observer and go, Well, doesn't sniff enough like Paul. You know what I'm saying? Who do I think I am? Now, there's obvious things that we can't get on board with. Right? There are very closed handed issues that obviously we just cannot.

The presence of the Gospel in your sermons, especially, I mean, this is just putting two thoughts together. Right? If you're gonna have a church that is welcoming to all visitors and that's your goal is to bring people in, you can't leave them there. Okay? You know better than that. You're a smart guy. Look at that. You can't just leave them there with quippy things. You gotta get them the Gospel because that's what does the changes. And so maybe you're in the process of figuring that out. Maybe they're in the process of going like, six months down the road, they're gonna have a deacons meeting, they're gonna go, Look, man, we got everybody on milk still. We we we've we missed it. We gotta figure out what to do. Yeah. You know? Like, there could be completely Jesus loving folks back here trying to figure this thing out. And so it's it makes it really hard to pop your head in and go, here's what you guys you know, you don't do enough hermeneutics or whatever that guy said that I don't care You know what I'm saying? But then on the other hand, you want a decent sampling of what you know the American church slides to a certain direction. We are elevated in the Bible even though we are not mentioned. We are to avoid all suffering even though everyone in the Bible has to go through suffering. Right? And it's all about the we're very individualistic the way that we take in the Word. And if we are preaching that, we're not helping. And so, like, I think instead of a finger wag to like nine churches, we could all huddle together as

God's big C church and go, Just make sure we're not leaning here. Make sure we're not leaning in this direction. Like, Fellas, let's rehumble ourselves and look and see where we're at. And what's working at your place? How do you get people off the milk? Because I figured out how to get them there, but I can't get nobody to take the meat. So what do you guys got? That I would be a lot more accepting I would love to hear I would love to hear some some of those guys talk about that. Like, it'd be super interested. And like, you can have yeah. Like, I mean, it's okay. You can just we can disagree on some of this. So some of this is method stuff and like it's okay to disagree.

Mhmm. But like, it would be I remember, the masses did an interview with householder

at the big, you know, like in church differences like the the the my householder is as the biggest church in the state, maybe the Midwest. I don't know. Yeah. And and I was talking to him and like, I found out it's a very cool interview. And it was one of those things where like, if you don't listen to a guy, your context of goal is got a giant church and they probably x y z things that I think are probably going on there. Like, you wouldn't know, like

and I remember after listening to that interview, it it reaffirmed the thought that, like, this man trying to follow Jesus and like, they're trying to do the best they can. And like when God sends people, what are gonna do? Say no? I don't want people? Right. Right. And like, that's why if you've ever heard I did Dan and I did an interview once where we were talking about kind of our our house church and there was another interview that I done with somebody else. And like, I will always talk about it as as risks, not problems. They're just risks they have. There's risks that we run-in a house church. There's risks that Dan's run for the size of church he has. And there's there's a different set of risks that come with guy a guy who's who's trying to pastor a 5,000 or a 10,000 person church. They're they're risks. They don't they don't mean that you cannot be successful

gospel proclaimers. But like our risk is people won't just show up. If we're not actively inviting people in and treating your dinner table as the front door, the church will not grow and you will become insular and it will be easy to do so. And so you have to be very mindful. The risk is true for small churches in general. It's it's it's double that for house church because people can't even wander in if they want to. If if if you've got five, ten thousand people, if you're into the guys that are on this list trying to lead a church, like you've created such a good infrastructure that people are excited to come check it out. The risk you run

is that you end up in some way or another being in service of their being there more so than in the service of what you wanted to bring them there for. You you you let their reaction start to dictate. And it's hard because you don't wanna chase them away because you have a heart for Jesus and for people. And you're like, boy, if I just start with this thing, the 5,000 people that showed up today, if it's the first time, heck, man, I think only 500 would come back if I if I nailed that. And like, I mean, here's the thing. From my very limited context, would be like, sorry, man. Not your problem. You only have one job. The the only thing you have to offer. But like, these these I'm sure these guys have gone through this very thing.

Rick well, take Rick Warren. Right? Rick Warren, I'm sure has faced this this particular question forever. Mhmm. What do I what do I do here? This is like for all by all evidence, this is a faithful man. Right? Who has to go, look, I got I got 2,000 people show up fresh every week. What am I gonna teach them? I it's something that that that causes them to come back next week. Now here's the thing. The the the the length of, hey, if I just keep them here, like, when do you transition? That that that's the thing that that I can never get on board with is that, like, like, at what point am I gonna flip them? They're gonna be year in? They're gonna be two years in? All of sudden, it feels like you put the pressure on them for something like they might as well know what they're walking into to the extent that they reasonably can. Jesus didn't just, like, hit absolutely everybody

with every theological thing. The lady at the well has no idea of propitiation. It hadn't even occurred yet. And Jesus' interaction with her like, she's still she's still he's still she's still got the gospel. She's still got the, man. You're basically gonna humbly recognize that you need me and that you need help and that you need rescue and that I'm the one to offer it. She think she still basically got that.

But, like, it it doesn't mean that you have to hit him with everything at once. Doesn't mean when they walk in, you hand them three commentaries on James and say this is what we're looking at. Like Mhmm. Nobody is saying that. Well, some some guys are saying that. I think well, it's not worth saying at all. But, like, I I think just you gotta just know where what your risks are. And like, here's the thing, any given group of churches in any given population range or demographic are somebody's losing to the risks. They just are. I I know house churches that are super insular, that have totally

not guarded themselves well, and and they've not seen a new person walk in or their people aren't sharing the gospel with other people and having them go to other churches because I don't particularly care about that. You don't have to come to my place. You can go come you can come over to death for all I care. As long as the gospel's being preached, as long as you end up with a get a good community of people, I don't care where you go. But like, it's worse it's how sexed sexed happened. Mhmm. Like, people get they they like to smell their own stuff and and they get into it. So like and I've totally met people. I've totally met people in house surgeons that have acted like that and it's because they didn't call the risks outright.

And so that's that's that's generally why I will talk about it that way because I think that's a fair way to say, look, that's the risk. And like, if if if if by listening to four sermons from any given with these guys and said, hey, look. Hey, look, Rick Warren. I just listened to your last four weeks worth of sermons and I didn't really hear a clear gospel presentation. Rick Warren might go, you know, I haven't looked at it by that lens in a while. Mhmm. Thank you. I'm gonna maybe something changes for the guy. What a great reaction. Totally successful dude who doesn't need my advice for anything. Right. But, like, I'm not sure that if it's if if I'm him and he sees something like this, he goes, you know, I I just hadn't been looking at it that in that way or think rethinking about that. Thanks for the reminder. It it probably doesn't change everything he does, but it's probably just another filter that goes into what what he what he's doing. I think there's a healthy way to go about this. I think the the most negative reaction has to assume a lot about this guy's intent. It has assumes a lot about his theological background. He used a lot of big words, trying to make me feel dumb, It's because it's theological background. It's because the website that you that it's coming from, they're just they're just how they talk.

I don't like it. Like Here's the thing is you just said that about Rick Warren, I puffed up on Rick Warren's behalf. I'm like, oh, well, I just watched 13 people die this week and prayed with six other dudes This is what I'm saying. And then baptized 14 people. I'm sorry my gospel message didn't get to you. That's what I'm saying. And that's that's one of the big things about the context of of listening to a guy's sermon from afar is that, like, it's again, that I'm not comfortable with the timing. Like, you you go you go three months or four months, maybe we have this conversation a little bit differently. You guys ever do a sermon series like a whole month where you're like, boy, it's just been a stinker. Boy, I just this is not my best work. You know? And you're like, I hope someone doesn't listen to that and they think my whole church doesn't know the gospel. Ben says, no. Because I only read out of the Bible. I don't do topical service. I'm telling you. I just

I've see, I've had I've I've totally just like everybody else, I've totally had days where, like, I let the Lord down. I've not I've not done a good enough service to the text. But at the end of the day, I always fall asleep with the comfort that said, look, I read the text. I explained what it what it was intending to say. I taught it in context. It can't it cannot be that much of a stinker because the Bible carried the day. Where where I fail, God's word always succeeds. Mhmm. And so, like, it's totally a cop out, but, like, I just cannot fail that bad because I taught the scripture. What a great gig, man. At worst, you've got the holy written word of God. That's what I'm saying. Which is the best God revealed me something to tell you. What you Go ahead. Oh, I I would say another angle of this too is one thing I learned

when I was kinda in the underbelly of of a megachurch in Colorado for a number of years in in meetings with the guys is that I I used to think that, like, the bigger the church, the more the guy spent time on his sermon. Right? It's like, they got, like, nothing. They are in meetings literally all day long, all day and all night with people, staff, leaders Yeah. Ministry teams. I mean, they I don't know how they get sermons done. So it's not like they're generally not the deep theological guy. Right. I mean, it's because they just don't have the time. They're just like, got that done. Off to my next meeting, you know, and and and it it's amazing. That's why they usually have teams that that collaborate on these messages.

But, yeah, it's it's it's it's not at all what we always think of. Right. Right? I mean, it's yeah. You would think great like 10,000 people. It's a heck of responsibility. I'm probably in forty five forty five hours a week Yeah. Working on this sermon. I can talk in front of these people. It tells you now it does tell you how good of speakers some of these guys are. Yeah. I mean, are fantastic. Yeah. There's a there's a there's a great talent to some of these guys. I just I just I just want the gospel in there. I just want it in there. That's the thing. It's like, I I don't actually have a problem with megachurches except for one where I think that it is an it is a foolhardy expedition to make to have the lead pastor run the teaching in the business.

I think that's just foolish. Mhmm. We talked about that once. I wish I could find that episode. So then we talked about, like, why would you do it? And I think that's where we ended up. Is it like, hey, just separate it out. Yeah. Let somebody else run the stuff. I don't think there's any I don't I don't see the danger in it. In fact, I see a lot of the danger, a lot of the risks removed. Mhmm. Right? That same guy that's gotta lead the message is not also in charge of keeping the lights on. And like, that's the thing. He'll pull punches. Right? Man. If our attendance isn't at least 4,700, we can't pay the heating bill. And he's like, oh, boy. Okay. Well, let's take a little bit of the repentant stuff out. We need Bill to come back. Oh, man. I heard that on what was I listening to? I was listening to some podcast, and they were talking about

someone someone had had written in some kind of question and it was a diff old it was what happened to Ananias and Sapphira. And like, does it doesn't this seem like we were just told about Jesus' rescue of the world and like grace and and his business and all of a sudden like,

it didn't say god killed him but like, everybody gives every impression that like they they certainly died in some quick way. Right. Right. And he would ask about this and like the guys the the the guy provided an answer to the question, don't think it was particularly satisfactory. And then but they were talking. Was like, well, that's just not the type of thing you teach on this happen day. Certainly not when the visitors are coming blah blah blah. And like, this is not unreasonable to like, again, consider who's coming in. But like,

was it one of those things where like, I mean, if it was next in the passage, it's next in the bed. We're teaching through the thing like, I don't really care who's in the room. But it was it was just that the concept of saying, look, I wonder who will hear this and how they will take it in which is not unreasonable. But like, the question is, are does this could this story point me to the character of God? Can I is the gospel in here? And I think the answer I haven't run into a biblical passage yet where I'm like, the gospel's not in here. It's always there. And I frankly think that's a that's a skill set. You figure out how figure out how to teach the gospel just like just like everybody that you read about in the New Testament was teaching the gospel from the old Mhmm. Which we couldn't do to save our lives, most of us. And so like like that, if you want a skill, do that. Figure out how to say, look, the gospel's in here. The god and and because that's that same thing drops out or like shows up in every life situation the pastor gets called into. Hey, so and so's sick at the hospital. Where's the gospel in this? So and so's son took their own life. Where's the gospel in this? Like, the world is freaking me out and there's scary things going on. Where's the gospel in this? Like, that's the Christian's job. Mhmm. And like, if as a pastor, we're we're not leading in that to be able to to to connect the gospel story, the good news of Jesus to all the other things that we have to walk into on a daily basis, then I think we are failing people. I think it's a fail.

Yep. Ready? One I think we got time for one. Dan you know Dan went on and on about this thing. I just couldn't stop. Yeah. Remind me not to do that again. Holy cow. It's like going to workshop for, like, a like, it's like, I have to sit through a thirty hour OSHA refresher course this week. This is what it's like. It's because I'm talking about both y'all's jobs and here's another thing I know. I'm like, what is going on? Hold on. Should hold on. Now that I think about this, this is a lesson for you for next time. Things to avoid. First of all, if you if you're reading an article that I recommended

and that I didn't read because at least when I'm reading it, I tend to curtail what I'm talking about in attempt to lazy attempt to facilitate conversation until the end. And then I'll come up with some sort of synopsis and then close down the thing. And in this format, I got your mental notepad. So everything that you took a notice of, you're like, I don't know the thing about it. That's right. As you're talking, more things are occurring to me as opposed to me having to try to keep track of where we're at and who's saying what. And so, like, on the other side of the interview stand, I'm awful. I'm even worse. Anyway, just a heads up. Something to consider. Here we go. K. I'm gonna find some worship leader stuff and youth group things to talk about. I'll go on a rap myself. Dear life from the past. My husband and I have been married for thirty years. Mhmm. He has always been self centered. We have discussed this over the years, and it hasn't changed So it's a good relationship. It hasn't changed his disposition. I bought him an It's All About Me coffee cup years ago. It's a joke, and he loves it. We both have office jobs and day to day issues and problems with our employees and coworkers. If we talk on a phone at lunch or over dinner, he describes his daily issues in excruciating detail, looking for my feedback input, and then moves on. There's never a time I can update him on my issues and get his input to help with mine because he's too busy thinking about his. He cares deeply about our adult children, but he doesn't give them input on their issues either. If I don't remind him about the challenges, I. E. Buying a new car, looking for a new job, whatever,

they want our advice on, he would never reach out to them at all. I'm not sure if this is a personality trait I must live with or if you have some ideas to improve this situation. All about him. Yeah. I have no ideas. You've gone thirty years with this cat. Yeah. I think he's yep. Yeah. I'm sorry. I mean, I think he's probably just in one of those phases where you're irritated with him. You'll get over it soon. And so that's just him. I'll get him a new mug.

I mean I'm trying to think of why this guy is the way he is. Like, how can you be with a guy for thirty years that's completely self centered dislike? We're all like that. Yeah. I mean, do you I mean, is there any chance that, like, he just doesn't it doesn't occur to him that you that that people want his advice on stuff? There's like, if they wanted my advice, they'd call. Yeah. Or they'd ask him. No. Doesn't want his advice. She just wants him to listen to her. Yeah. But she's saying it in a in a in a weird way that he's he's he's deaf. It's what he's an idiot. Here's the thing. It's like he's just a regular dummy man. And and and and he gets he doesn't know what else to say. And unless you ask him a question, he probably ain't gonna answer a question you didn't ask. He's not gonna assume that you wanna ask something because he's a he's a dummy. And then he to fill the space, he talks about the things he knows, which is whatever's going on at his place. And then, like, hey. The kids haven't called or the kids are thinking about buying a new car or whatever. And he's like, oh, well, they haven't mentioned that to me. And then he doesn't think any more about it because they never called them to ask him what kind of car they should get. And so it could be he's completely self centered. I'm not saying that's off the table. Yeah.

He can also just be a little daft. I mean, you know, some people, you have to I'm one of these people. You have to engage them. Otherwise, they don't know what's going on. They assume everything's fine, only to find out everything is horrible. Right. Right? They just go through life looking at the clouds going, man, this is what a day. This is great. And turns out that, like, everybody's house is on fire, and no one called them. And he sees Smoke and go, man, I guess they must be having some kind of fire over Ben's house. Off I go, you know, no one called me and told me there was a fire, so I had no reason for concern. You know, it's it's that kind of thing. And so, like, I I really don't wanna give this guy any rope, but he reads a lot like like

a guy I know named Mike, who who I mean, may just have no idea that things are so bad. And then he hears it and goes, I had no idea. Crap. I gotta do better. And then Right. Will try his hardest to do better and still suck. Yeah. You know you know what's interesting about maybe a good call out here is that, like, it's okay for people to have a different personality than you. Like, let's say the wife is the type of person who's, like, constantly keeping up with their kids and with their family and whatever and, like, they're calling her for advice all the time. It's okay that that's not happening with the dad. Like, I think it's alright. You don't have like, in fact, like, I I this has been pretty true even even with people I've known or even within family, like, some people are really good, like, they're the type of personality where like, hey, they just call up to check on you because they do. And then, like, their spouse or whatever never would never do that. And I don't think anything of it. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think, oh, well, that person's a jerk. Why wouldn't they call? And like and I I know this because, I'm one of the guys, like, I really stink at following up with, like, just checking in on on on on family members or whatever. Like, I might I might neglect to call my grandfather, like, maybe twice a year I'll do it. And I know that it really irritates my mother. But I was which I would call him way more often. But my mom talks to him once every two or three days. And, like,

could I do better? Yeah. I probably should. But, like, the fact that you do, it doesn't mean it doesn't mean someone else said right. Like, it it doesn't mean it's the same thing for for everybody. Like, people's relationships with people are different. And as long as there's not an l I I guess I'm checking this, like, is there are we sure there's not element of that going on there? Like, oh, hey. In fact, our friend Pants, the guy who does the he's he's the guy who speaks the opening. He's awesome at this. He will check on people and follow-up. When I was sick, he I heard from him every day. He calls our grandpa. Yeah. He calls my grandpa more than I call my Yes. He does. Oh, man. He's really good at it. Like, that's just totally it's his vibe. It's he's really good at that type of thing. And I think that's okay. And it doesn't mean I don't I I can't strive to be better. But, like, I also don't know that it has to be like, well, everybody should call Bids grandpa Right. 10 times a week. Like, I is that like, who's so lonely because you didn't call? Like, Pants called him.

My mom called him. Like, again, I I should call him more. I'm with you. But but like, I I I just I think we gotta be careful at like just making sure you don't imprint your personality Yeah. And what you value on top of other other people. That's I think it's just a risky run. Crap. I just did that to one of my kids today. You phrased that well. Now I feel bad. Alright. Wait minute. Tell me. What did you do?

Nothing they would do. I you know, I barely yell at the girls. And when I have to, I feel real bad about it after it's all said and done. So I did it today. My daughter had been considering I started teaching them guitar last year. Right? And took on a couple kids from their school, because I thought, well, I'm already teaching her. Well, just as well, it'll take on these other kids. And I'm like, don't charge them or nothing. We just hang around and learn to play guitar. So this year, I decided, look, if we're gonna because that's you know, we were gonna start getting it back since the school came back around. And I said, look, we're we're gonna get a book. So I got something to help you through, you know. So the book comes in, and I I say, hey, Look through, like, the first, whatever, six, seven pages of this and and have a look at it. You know? And then, you know, she starts doing it and then and then and then I hear some crying and whatever. I'm like, what is going on? So I come in and, like, he's like, I I just I don't understand this. And I go, alright. Well, you know, let let me read it back to you and we'll figure out what's what. Long story short, we get, like, five, ten minutes. She's like she's like, I don't wanna play guitar no more. I'm like, what? We just talked about this, like, last week when I ordered this book. Right? When we got the guitar. Like, you had every opportunity to tell me that you didn't wanna do this anymore.

And and she's like, well, I just I've lost interest. I'm like, nope. Nope. Nope. You're quitting because it's hard. That's what you're doing. You fat like, if her finger hurts she hasn't played guitar in six months. Right? The her tip of her finger hurts from trying to push the string down. Right. Yeah. And so she she don't wanna do it. I'm like, you know, you're not quitting just because something came up hard. You can find me something else that's hard to do, and if you wanna do that, that's great. But until you find me an alternative for something that's hard, I think you're quitting because it's hard. And that's a big no. You cannot quit. Nope. Sorry. Done. And I I go and I leave the room and I sit down at my desk. I'm like And then I hear, like, small whimpering from there. I'm like, I'm gonna I'm gonna fold here. And, like, the truth of the matter is is, like, my kids know if there's anything about me, you can't you don't get to quit because something's hard. You can quit for all kinds of reasons, but never because it's too hard for you or it hurts. These are not good reasons to quit. Right? Yep. And so, like, I don't know whether she has a track record of doing this or not. I knew in the two minutes I was talking to her, I was sure that she had, and we were gonna stick this course, you know? And so, like, just you saying that goes, well, my personality is, look, you can quit for all kinds of logical reasons, but never because you're too tired, it hurts, or, you know, you just don't want to. These are not valuable reasons to quit. So anyway, I don't know if that's her run of life or not, but it is mine, and I certainly made it so today. So I thought, well, crap. I I I don't know that I I don't know that I owe her an apology, but

I do need a better explanation than what I did. Right? Did it in a real pretty abrupt, not a very classy way. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, that's why I said crap. Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. So Segular says, her her question really was, I'm not sure if this is a personality trait I must live with, or if you have some ideas to improve this situation. The guy's a selfish boob. That's what what she's getting at. Secular says, has it occurred to you that in some areas, your husband may be less self centered than an empty vessel? He may not help you with your daily issues because he doesn't have the answers. Mhmm. Assuming you have talked to him about this until you are blue in the face, next time he asks for your input, you might consider being less helpful. Or beat him wow. Or beat him to the punch and tell him about your problems before he has a chance to tell you the ones he is having. Our advice

is to be less healthful when he asks is to lower yourself to his empty vessel standards. That's what we're saying. Hey, the next time he calls, don't don't be honest with him. Don't give him the full counsel. Give him crappy counsel like you get from him. Good one. As to as to your adult children, they should go directly to their father when they seek his advice. Continue to approach him until they get it. I that was I mean, why I I grant that we weren't very helpful, but hers

was worse. Hers was, like, negative. Hers made the situation worse. I I I mean Wheatley said, you're gonna have to put up with what you got. It feels like like like every answer has to have some kind of half compromise here. And so and and and I I without knowing the guy, don't know whether this is true or not. He literally could just be he's he's not outgoing. He doesn't think much of himself, so he doesn't offer a whole lot of his own opinions. Mhmm. Right? Like and here's the thing, is like, especially if you've married a smart, well motivated woman,

there's not a whole lot to add. You're a support vessel. Right? The the the five minutes you've spent thinking about whatever things, she's already spent three days and thought through it and has a a well informed opinion. Your your job is to go, well, financially, yes. We can do that, or absolutely, I'd be there to support. Your idea is not to talk her out of it or try to come up with some new fangled wizard plan because you're only gonna put five minutes of time in there Right. And she already knows. So, like, there's there's some some of this is is possibly a wife that goes, look, I want my husband to actively think and invest in all the things that I think and invest in. That's probably not going to happen. He's probably not as equipped as you to do it. He probably doesn't have the heart for it, he's probably not as good at it. Especially when it comes to stay relationship stuff or dealing with his children apart from, hey, what do you think of the new Taurus? Right. You know? But if they want to ask him that, they should ask They should. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They shouldn't call you and go, well, I'd call dad. Maybe I'll call dad. We'll see. And then they never call. And then you're mad at your husband and be like, did you ever call the kids about the Taurus? They didn't call me about no Taurus. I don't know what you're talking about. You know? And so, like, there's no reason for him to think about things he knows nothing about. Not once again, not to give him too much weight off his shoulders, but, like, you have to be real careful about impregnating the things that you are and all the things that define you, and then looking at your spouse and going, you're not all those things, you're terrible. I mean, really, it's it's it's probably not as true as you think it is. And he could be a completely selfish boob. I don't know. Yeah. That's it. Okay. Hey. You've been listening to Live From The Path. Hey. Thanks for hanging out with us tonight. I really do appreciate it. You made it the whole way. Congratulations.

There will be a nice surprise underneath your pillow tonight. Yeah. Hopefully, the doctrine of Imputation. Imputation.

Yeah. Which I'm real concerned with. Hey, So here's the deal. Let's say you have comments on the show. You say, look, you guys went to I don't appreciate this lambasted. Maybe you're Steven Furtick and you heard the show and you said, hey, man. I preached the word. I don't know why you guys misrepresent what I'm doing. Maybe you know Rick Warren. I'm a winner. And he's heard about it and he's very upset and you wanna make sure we know. That's great. That's what the complaint line is for. (515) 517-0085. We didn't write the article. You know? Yeah. But we we we reacted to it and and frankly, Rick got me riled. Good. That's (515) 517-0085.

Let us know what you think of the show, what you think of, I don't know, our take on the article or Bad Advice, or whether you've tried that new Impossible Whopper at the at the at the beer Burger King or the Wendy's breakfast. Anybody tried breakfast at the No. No. It's not bad. No. I stopped there twice. I was on my way out of town just over the weekend. I had a reason to to hit it up a couple times. I don't love it, but it's alright. It's worth a shot. Hey, man. Speaking of the weekend, Buva got married over this weekend. Yeah. So congratulations to

Buva and his wife, Gianna. Yeah. It was a cool wedding. It was full the gospel was taught there in its full realm. And so it was very cool and it was very cool to see Buva and Gianni get married, and and congratulations to both of them. It was it was pretty awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No doubt. Oh, yeah. Hey. Hey. If you wanna tell Buva, congratulations, we can pass that on. It it it's do the complaint line. Yeah. It's a phone or text. (515) 517-0085.

Okay. That's it. Oh, we appreciate you hanging out with us this week. Wait. We're if you haven't heard the show, we are three shows behind. I wanna work on that this week. Get us all caught up so you got stuff to listen to, and we hope to be back with you next week. In the meantime, be faithful in the means. God will handle the ends. You've been listening Live From The Past.