No, I do not have one. Fail. That's all I heard. Fail. Deuteronomy Dan was supposed to be in and rocking. Here's the phone conversation from earlier. The checks? Dan, do you think we can get some Deuteronomy Dan? He says no. He said no? It wouldn't be a problem? No, no. It wouldn't be no problem at all. He said he'd do it. Yeah, I would do it. I have no problem. I can do it. But I didn't. No, I totally failed. Alright, well that's a debacle. No, but we are going to talk about the biblical perspective on Osama Bin Laden.

There seems to be like a 50-50 split on faith-based folks on glorifying the vengeful death of him or sorrow because someone has gone to hell that could otherwise have gone to heaven. And so it seems to be a 50-50 split. There's biblical precedence for this, and I think we'll talk about it. Yeah, that sounds good. Alright, well let's meet our guests a little. First of all, Steve, thanks for coming in. I really appreciate you taking the time to come out and talk with us. If you want to scooch up to the mic there, maybe just tell us a little bit about, let's get to know you a little bit, you know, maybe how you came to your faith and how you came, you're the founder of Boone Bible Ministries, is that right? That's correct. Okay, so maybe just tell us a little bit about how you came to your faith and how you came to found Boone Bible Ministries. Well, I've always, by God's mercy, been a little interested in the Bible, even since I was little. Well, although I suppose it would be about the fall of 2003, I was driving home from my job in Ames, back to Boone. And I came across this voice, a deep, sonorous voice hosting a call-in program on Family Radio, 91.3, a different Christian station. And it was just something to do on the way home from work. And so I would listen to that and thought it was a little crazy what was being announced. But after time and becoming more familiar with the Bible myself, I thought, well, maybe I'm learning a thing or two. And so I started to get into the Bible more myself. And from there, I suppose, just little by little, learning more from the Bible. That's a pivotal point I can remember right now, anyway.

As far as founding Boone Bible Ministries, I did that. I'm the only person in it, officially. I did that purely to get IRS 501c3 status so I could mail postcards for cheap. Okay. It turns out… That's a shrewd move. It's a shrewd move. Well, I am legitimate. I mean… Absolutely. It turns out I didn't do that because God steered me away from the postcard idea in lieu of billboards about May 21 in 19 days. And so the direction changed, but still I had 501c3 status, and maybe it's helped, but that is the primary reason why I founded Boone Bible Ministries, just to have that tax status to get cheap postcards. You're right, Mike. That's shrewd. That's a shrewd move. And actually, the billboard is how I got your information to contact you to be on the show. Obviously, the billboard is effective. Solid advertising, Steve, I'd say. Yeah. So when was this founded then?

I mean, maybe you said it and I was… No, I didn't. Okay, good. When? Yeah, yeah. Like pretty recently or a while back? I think last March I filed articles of incorporation with the state of Iowa. It took a few months to go through the IRS's paper machine or whatever. Yeah. And so maybe about July. I can't remember exactly when, but in the later summer it was finally approved, and then I've been waiting to see how God would want me to do whatever with it. Cool. Very, very good. All right, well, so let's talk a little bit more about where you're at. So if you can connect the dots a little bit and tell us how we're coming to Judgment Day begins May 21st. And I know that there's a lot to it, so if you can condense it into three to five minutes where people can try to follow. It starts with how do you interpret the Bible. And so the quick rundown on that is God presents information in the Bible to us in figures and patterns and parables, what we call a proverb or a parable, a metaphor, an allegory. And so there are many pictures in the Bible about spiritual matters.

Jesus is the sacrifice of the Old Testament, so to speak, and I can get carried away with that and talk a long time about that. Sure. However, the flood is a big picture of Judgment Day, and we read about that in Matthew 24, where Jesus says, as it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be. We read about that in 2 Peter 3, where God goes on to talk about the flood and how the world then was destroyed by water and the world to come will be destroyed by fire. Sure. So the flood as a picture is important, as a picture of Judgment. There are time paths in the Bible which point to 2011. There's a calendar in the Bible, essentially. All the time statements of the Bible are perfectly accurate because it is the Bible. And so the most simple to understand three to five minute explanation, and it's built on a lot of other information, but it's simple to understand, is 2 Peter 3.8, a day with the Lord is as a thousand years, and a thousand years is as one day. Now that verse is sandwiched in the context of the flood of Noah's day and Judgment to come at the end by fire. We find the same idea in Psalm 90, verse 2, where God is saying, a day of old with you is as a thousand years when it is past. I'm paraphrasing. Yeah, yeah. And again, he's talking about the flood. Thou carryest them away as with a flood or a river. And then he goes on to talk about God's wrath.

So the idea that a day with the Lord is a thousand years in the Bible, which is there twice, is both times in the context of the flood and Judgment. And we have a statement in the Bible in Genesis 7.4, which says, God speaking to Noah, For yet seven days I will cause it to rain. He's telling him he'll bring the flood in seven days. And when we expand that out to 7,000 years to see what we get, you know, as we're trying to work this out, it's 7,000 years after the flood, which was in 4990 B.C., is 2011. And that's this year. And May 21 on the Hebrew calendar, the Jewish calendar, which is governed by the moon, that is May 21 is the 17th day of the second month. And when you read Genesis 7, 11 through 16, you'll find that is the day Noah got into the ark, or at least that the door of the ark was closed by God. Again, another picture. So that in a nutshell, real quick, is a little bit of information about it. So it would seem that having folks who are not getting to the same point that you're getting wouldn't take the day as a thousand days as literal. What makes you confident that that is to be taken as a literal translation or depiction from God saying this is the time that it's going to be? Really, the main reason would be because of the hermeneutic or method of Bible interpretation, which says to us God speaks to us in figures of speech, in metaphors, in similitudes, in figures.

He's giving us spiritual meaning of things with earthly figures that we can see, but he's talking about spiritual things in them. Does that make sense? Does that answer your question? Yeah, I see what you're saying. So let me ask this. When do you, where did you get to, or how did you get to this point? I mean, is it the research that you had done on your own? Is it based upon research that other folks have done? Like, how did you get to this point where you feel like that you're confident in that date? Well, certainly, I did not come up with this stuff all by myself. I've read the works of other people, primarily Harold Camping of Family Radio, the president and manager. However, when you're going to tell people May 21 is the day of the rapture and the beginning of Judgment Day, you ought to do your homework and double-check what people are saying. Somebody might say, what? Right, and so I had the opportunity to do that, and as I went through and studied the information, I found this is the way it is going to be. I concur with this. I concur with this. So, you know, and I don't think any of these questions necessarily are going to surprise you here. One of the things that comes up when you mention a guy like Harold Camping is a previous prediction of the end of the world in 1994.

The Bible says, you know, when you talk about a prophet, you know, if he gives a prophecy and it doesn't happen, that man is a false prophet and you can disregard him. So how do we get, so if his work and some of his study is kind of what brings us to this point, how can we trust a person who, biblically standing, would otherwise be considered a false prophet? But does he actually qualify for what we read in Deuteronomy about a false prophet? And it makes me hesitant to talk about him because he can be asked himself about, you know, things like this. But I can say to be a false prophet according to Deuteronomy, I think it's 18. I can't remember the exact chapter, but there's two separate chapters that talk about different aspects of being a false prophet. And the one that you're talking about now is if a prophet presumed to speak a word in the name of the Lord and the thing he has said doesn't come to pass and so forth. And so what that is talking about is saying you have heard from God a word and then telling others it came from God and this is what God has said. And Harold Camping, for example, has not done that. He has not said, I have a vision from God, an articulated message that came to me and this is what it was. That's what the Bible is talking about there. I think that's probably pretty thin, though, because, I mean, he's basing, well, I won't say him, I'll say you, but is basing most of the presumption on the date on God's word, the Bible. The Bible is concurrently referred to as God's word. So what's the difference between a vision and God's perfect handbook that he's given us to live by? Well, then the difference would be, was he right in his interpretation? We have the Bible.

That's the word of God. And we give that to people. We can say, because it's true, this is the word of God, the Bible. But then it's a matter of interpretation. And every Bible teacher ever has been wrong about something in their interpretation. And we don't go around calling them all false prophets. True. That's fair. Yeah. No, that is fair. So I guess at this point, it's the confidence that I guess I'm asking. Yeah, it's like the statement, the Bible guarantees. I think that's the rub, right? Because you can make an error in interpretation with the Bible and just be wrong, you know, and still have the love of Christ in your heart and want to see everyone, you know, see salvation flourish. And without making a bold statement like, my interpretation is the interpretation, this is the only way to see it, the Bible guarantees. I think that's the rub. Okay. And that's fair. However, what choice do we have when that's what we understand from the Bible?

And we have passages in the Bible to, we're mandated to declare the word of God. And this is how we see what the word of God is saying to us. And we're talking, a lot of us talk now about Ezekiel 33, in which God is telling Ezekiel as a watchman on the coast of Israel, when you see the sword approaching, you warn the people. And if you don't, you're in trouble. I'm obviously paraphrasing. Yeah, yeah. But you can read that in Ezekiel 33. And also Ezekiel 3 has the same thing. And what's the pattern God gives us when God says to Jonah, look, you go to Nineveh and you tell him in 40 days, I'm going to destroy it. But what happened to Jonah when he didn't do it? He got in trouble with God in a big way. And so eventually he ended up doing what he was supposed to do. Well, and I think it's accurate to say, I mean, we do have a pattern of God warning. I mean, Noah had a chance to warn people of which they ignored. So I think this is all, it's all familiar work from God. Let me ask you this. There was, and I'm not sure that I quite understood it, but one of the things I was trying to, it's not a specialty of mine, so maybe you can help educate me.

But there was parts of this that sounded the end of the church age. And it basically, from what I read, it's, you know, the people that were in the local churches over the last, I don't know, 20 years or whatever, are not saved. Am I catching that correctly? If they are saved, they will be coming out of the churches. That would be an addendum I would add to that. They would have left the churches. The believers now are leaving the local congregations, and I'm very understanding that that is not a happy idea. Oh, sure. So how, I guess that my question then is how would that be consistent with the church as Christ's bride? Well, the Bible speaks about, uses the word church in two different ways. There's the eternal church, right? That consists of all the true believers. Then you have this organism called the local congregations, and just because you go to that, that doesn't mean you're saved because you're a part of that, right? You can have membership in the local church and not be saved. So what church is in view, you have to kind of study out based on the context and other things the Bible says about how church is being used, that word in the Greek, ecclesia, or whatever, in the context, and how the Bible is using the other figures surrounding it.

So the Bible anticipates problems in the local congregations, and so that's the answer to that, is that there's two different churches, the eternal church and the local visible church. And you can't be involved in both? You can't have, be a membership of the eternal body of Christ and still be in a local church? During the church age, you absolutely could. I mean, that was God's method of operation, was to use the churches to further the gospel. But the Bible anticipates a time when that program would stop. And in which God, at the end of that program, summons His people out of the local congregations. And so I have to say, sadly, now, no, you cannot be a member of the local congregations and expect to be in the kingdom of God. And I know how odd that must be. Yeah, yeah. I guess my direct question is that your membership within or not within a local church now negates your faith that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and died for your sins? Like that one caveat takes you out of the kingdom of heaven now? No, it's the same as any other command. We have commands in the Bible to leave the congregation. We've had commands to not lie, to love your neighbor as yourself, to love the Lord your God with all your strength, and all kinds of commands in the Bible. And if you're a believer, you are going to be obedient to those commands. And so it's not that being a part of a local congregation negates salvation or your beliefs.

It's more of an indication if you're there, there's a flag that you are not saved and have not become saved. So what is the—maybe let's get back to rudimentary details here. What is—how is somebody saved? So— I mean, how is somebody saved? And then how does that translate to, I didn't leave the church? And that means that I'm not hearing God, and I'm not going to make it. Someone is saved when God gives them a new spirit, when they're born from above. I think we read about that in John 3. And the Bible says that God is a spirit. Those that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. The Bible says in a different place, that which is born of flesh is flesh. That which is born of spirit is spirit. So we know that rebirth, that regeneration, is a spiritual one. When you're saved, your flesh doesn't change. It's the inward change. And that's what salvation is, is being given that new—at least for what we're talking about now— salvation is getting that new inner workings, new spiritual man, the inward man God talks about in Romans 7. So God is in charge of when that happens. And he will carry that out in the elect person's life whenever he sees fit to save them. And when someone is saved because of—because that work is God's work.

Because we read an example in 1 John 3, that which is born of God cannot commit sin. And like verses I've already said indicate, it's the spirit that's born again. It's that inward man that's born again, and it's born of God. That which is born of God cannot commit sin. So inwardly, you cannot sin. And because of that, you'll grow in grace. You'll begin to have a want to, to be obedient more and more to the Word of God. The Bible describes characteristics of a true believer. Like Psalm 1, I suppose. Blessed is the man who walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, and so forth. But his law is in the—but his delight is in the law of the Lord. And in his law doth he meditate day and night. And so there's characteristics of a believer given in the Bible, and we are to scrutinize our lives to see are we meeting that threshold. Sure. So when—I'm trying to follow you, and I'm processing all this stuff. So does a person know if they're saved? I mean, I'm kind of confused. What point do you go from lost to found? Right. If you say that only God can make that change within you, do you— How do you know if you're part of the elect?

Right. You know, I just— No, sure. I understand. The hope of mankind, unsaved mankind, is they don't know if they're elect or not, right? If you know you're not saved, you can't know, though, that you haven't been chosen by God to become saved. The Bible says the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit that we are sons of God, children of God. So the way we see if we are is to scrutinize our lives against what the Bible says. The Bible says prove yourselves whether ye be of the faith, examine yourselves, make your calling and election sure, and things like this. So the Bible is like a ruler in that regard. We have the commands. Are we following them more and more? And as we do that, we can start to say, it looks like I'm a child of God. Why? Not because I'm so great, but because I'm finding I want to follow the Bible more and more. But that—I don't know, like, that train of thought seems to take out the sacrifice of Jesus Christ completely. Like, I mean, the main verse that most people grab onto when they first hit Christianity is, For God so loved the world, he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believeth him shall not perish but have eternal life. But now we're putting it as our own works are being, you know, measured up against a ruler, and that doesn't seem biblically consistent. No, what you said is absolutely right. That would not be biblically consistent.

But the works are a ruler. The works don't get us saved, but the Bible says faith without works is dead. So if we do have faith, we ought to have good works accompanying them, right? And John 3.16 does not explain how someone becomes saved. And that's where the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus comes in. He paid for the sin debt of his people. And so because he did that, they can become saved. He took their sin upon himself and paid that sin debt. He took the wages of sin from God that they were to be paid, you know, to the sinners so they can become saved. By God looking through the Lord Jesus, he can see the people who would become saved as perfect people, even though they were in big trouble with God before. So like the Apostle Paul who said, you know, what I want to do, I don't do. What I don't do, I want to do. He was struggling. He's still in the process of being saved or growing to that point of realizing he was saved? In Paul's case, he had tremendous spiritual insight. He probably knew he was saved. But in Romans 7, to which you're referring, he is speaking about the dilemma of all the saved people. They have this inward man, the spiritual man that's born from above, born from God. And that, in that existence, we never sin. And yet we got the same body that lusts after sin and wants to sin all the time.

And it's a constant war. Am I going to sin? Am I going to be obedient to God? That's the life of a believer. That's what he's describing in Romans 7. But then the proof of salvation is, are you getting more? And no one can examine another person. We have to examine ourselves. Am I becoming more and more obedient? Are sins going away? You know what I mean? And that's something in between every person individually and God. There's 95% of the stuff, too, that I think I can easily agree to. Some of the things where I'm struggling is the extra leap, is the, you know, sins are decreasing. But I'm still in the local church, and I don't make the cut. When otherwise, from my understanding of God's salvation, we should be okay. You know what I mean? I feel like people would be feeling this separation from God, unless we're saying because they, you know, God's choosing to not reveal it to them, for them to notice. I mean, is that where we're at? Well, sadly, in 2 Thessalonians 2, I might be able to remember it, but in case not, I'm turning to it.

God talks about this time of great tribulation. That's the nature of the end of the church age, or of the great tribulation, is to be the end of the church age, and for the believers to have to come out. But we read, for example, 2 Thessalonians 2, verse 10, we'll start in verse 11, And, I mean, that's what could be sadder than this type of language, right? Yeah. And so what you have said is essentially true, that God is giving those who are in the local congregations up to a strong delusion. Why does the local church equal unrighteousness? Well, because in the local congregations, they are not following the Bible, as they should be. Every local? That's a pretty broad brush, you're painting right there. Every local congregation doesn't follow the Bible? That's what the Bible is indicating, is that the entire institution of the local church is in trouble with God. Not just some of the congregations or denominations, but the entire institution is, even if it's just the point that the church age has come to an end. That would still be a violation, if you can understand that from my point of view, and the law of God saying, come out of the churches, the churches still existing is a problem. So they could be a straight-laced Bible-teaching church, never a diversion from the Word, but simply for the fact that they continue to exist in the local church fashion is a violation of God's purpose, and that's what's causing the trouble. Your hypothetical situation, I would say yes, but I don't see that situation existing.

I see the local churches in big rebellion against God. I would assume, given your position, that you don't attend a local church. That's correct. So how would you properly evaluate that? Well, the local congregations I have seen exhibit that characteristic. But you're right, what I think about churches doesn't mean anything. It's what the Bible tells us about the institution of local churches that matter, and it's there in the Bible that we're finding out that terrible information. Okay. Let me ask you this. Why the billboards? It sounds like, if I'm getting this correct, what are they going to do? To what effect do you put up a billboard like that? What do you expect? What do you hope that it is to do? Well, to warn the world that in 19 days, their life as they know it is done, and that the rapture is going to happen. What is the benefit of alerting the world of that? It would seem that anybody should already know that if they were out of the local church and up and running, right? Right.

Let's say a guy like me, I'm in a local church. I'm obviously not necessarily getting the same thing you're getting. I look at that. It doesn't sound like there's anything I can do to pull myself into a situation where things are going to be okay for me. So I'm asking, to what effect? To what end? Like if we suddenly cancel church next week because we're like, oh, wow, we shouldn't be doing church anymore, are we all good? I mean, that's kind of what you're asking. On the flip side, I'm in a different way. You'd be no better off than anyone else who's following the word of God and trying to be obedient because works don't get you saved, right? That would be a good work to come out of your local congregation or to disband your congregation, to cease to be a church and to reorganize as a fellowship or something that wasn't going by the institutional rules for the local congregations in the Bible. So that's just a good work to do. We know first, like in Ezekiel 33, we're commanded, you warn the people. And if the people who you've warned respond to that, that's great. If they don't, that's their problem, but you did what you were told.

What was the appropriate response? Because the insinuation of the Noah story, for example, is he goes out and warns people, they turn, they get to go on a boat. Yes. But the example you're providing is, you warn, we cancel church, we're not in any better shape than we were. No, no, through the activity of the believers warning people about Judgment Day, people will become saved and get into the ark, which is a figure of becoming saved, right? The ark is a picture of the kingdom of God. And so when I have my billboards up, they have boombible.com and familyradio.com on there. And there are Bible verses on the websites and other websites who are advertising the same thing. Those Bible verses have the power to save people. Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God, Romans 10, 17. So by them looking into it, if they're interested to do that, and God's in charge of that, they will expose themselves to Bible verses. And the same when someone's handing out a gospel tract. Many people who believe this pass out tracts that say there's three different tracts about Judgment Day, and they talk about it with lots of Bible verses. So what are the Bible verses that provide that, right? Because the Bible verses that grab me is that the major gist of it is that if I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and He died to cover my sins, then I have a belief in a Holy Father and my faith is there.

But if that's not the case, if God has to make that change in you, what Bible verses are bringing about that change then if that thought is not what makes it? Well, yeah, no thought is what makes it. It's Bible verses, any Bible verse. I mean, you could be reading in the book of one of the Chronicles where it's a little more, we think it tends to be a little more dry reading there. That's still the Word of God, and that's the environment in which God will save people. So the verse doesn't matter. So the belief in, I guess I'm missing it. I'm missing the disconnect between the faith that Jesus Christ died for our sins and then everything else, right? So is that not a concrete solution? Yeah, the real problem is believing in Jesus as an act does not get anyone saved. It's another good work that comes forth out of being saved. We read in the Bible, like, is it Galatians 4 that talks about, or 5, the fruit of the Spirit is faith. Like no one gets to the Father except through me. Right, yeah. And so I think that's John 6. That doesn't sound like such a just a good work, though, right? That sounds like it. What sounds like it? The believing that Jesus died for your sins, right?

Believing is a work, though. It's something we do. It is a good work of the law of God that we believe. We're commanded to do it. So what does the verse, no one gets to the Father except through me, mean, then? No one can come to the Father except by me. That means that Jesus has to pay for your sins in order for you to become saved. And if he did not pay for them, then you can't become saved. There's no way to God except through the Lord Jesus and what he did to pay for sins. And if he's done that, then that applies to everybody. Or you're saying he only died for certain people? Right. He only died for his elect, his people, in the spiritual sense of his people. Because had he paid for the sins of everybody ever, no one could go to hell because hell is the payment for sin. And so had he died for everyone, then if God were to send people to hell after that, there would be what we might call double jeopardy. Or, you know, there are sins being paid for twice. The wages of sin, then, is being paid out twice. And that's not just. And the Bible insists. I don't think I can think of a verse offhand. But in the Old Testament, it says that there is equity with God.

God has equity, a justice, an equal balance. Okay. Do we feel like the gospel has been preached to all the world? We made it? Well, I don't think it's a requirement that every single last person in the world has to be preached. But certainly it is a requirement that, and I might be wrong about that first point, but it is a requirement for certain that every person who is the elect of God must hear from the Bible somehow. And right now you have a group of believers who are blanketing the world and trying, with all their means, to spread the idea, Judgment Day is coming in 19 days on May 21. And so through that, this, what do I want to call it, this segment of God's salvation program, we've talked about Jesus and his work for a long time. For a long time before that, they had the law of God and the ceremonial sacrifices, and now we're in like stage three, so to speak, spread the warning that Judgment Day is in 19 days. And through that, people will hear the gospel and become saved, because they'll be looking at Bible verses about it and so forth. Okay. We're getting ready to tie up here, Steve. So what do you got planned for the days between now and then? I mean, did you have anything special going on to fill those days, anything that you're doing specifically? I made no plans, whatever God will cause it to happen like. I mean, this was totally unexpected to be invited to your show,

and I never got the chance to say thank you for having me on. Sure, absolutely. I really appreciate it a lot. But anything like this might come up. I'm still doing more billboards. People are saying, hey, can you look into this market for a billboard? We got some finances we can help out. And I'm like, okay, I'll do what I can. So I really have made no plans. It's difficult to also, just whatever God's going to throw my way. Sure, sure. Okay. Anything else, you guys? Anything on the tip of your tongue there? Well, I guess the obvious question is what happens if May 22nd comes? You kind of go back to say, well, I guess I was incorrect? Like the math wasn't right this time? Very similar to the time before, right? Because, I mean, the 1994 thing, it was just looked at as a math, you know, as a miscalculation. Is there no possibility of that this time around?

Well, the 1994 wasn't just a miscalculation. I mean, it was a misinterpretation of certain scriptures. But there is sufficient information and proof from the Bible to show us that May 21 is it. I mean, so we get asked that all the time, right? What are you going to do on me? I think we're trying to ask it in a non-facetious way of being honest. Our answer has to be the same. It's going to happen. We don't entertain the idea that it's not. So if we believe that May 21 is the end of the world, is that the barrier between, you know, like the folks in the local church? And I say, look, I believe it with all my heart. I believe that's going to happen. Is that a revelation that I will become comfortable with, for example? I mean, is that what we're saying? I'm just trying to think of, like, of what it takes someone to turn from who's, let's say they're in the local church, they see the billboard, they say, look, I otherwise believe in Jesus, but I'm missing something because I didn't see this. And then, like, what is the change? They suddenly believe in that? They're comfortable that it's going to happen May 21?

I still don't quite understand. What are you asking? What's the change between what? So I'm thinking of a guy who otherwise felt like he was good. He felt like he had a good relationship with Christ, but he didn't see the end of the world thing coming. He sees the billboard. He says, May 21. I don't know what that is, but he checks out the website, and he reads all this stuff, and he says, you know what? Yeah, I think it is May 21. Is that it? Well, no. I mean, there's more laws in the Bible, right? And so we don't just, being obedient to one law isn't like the holy grail of Christianity and obedience in your walk with God, right? There's a whole Bible to be obedient to. And so when we, that's going back to the idea of the law of God or the Bible being a measuring rod for your position with God. Yeah. Why would you just say, oh, I got one, and we might be tempted to do that.

Oh, I believe May 21, and I think it's the real deal, so I must be on God's good terms. Then we're making too much out of our good works. Well, but maybe it was good to go before that, because the standard that you're throwing out there is someone could be otherwise using the Bible as a yardstick, meeting up, like following the rules they were supposed to, otherwise being obedient. Right, because there's a goal hand in hand. Does their ruler against the Bible saying, look, okay, my life is consistent with the biblical talents that he set apart, and the end of the world showing up on May 21st, do they have to go hand in hand? Can a guy just be following the Bible, and then it shows up, and that's fine? Well, there are warnings in the Bible about ignoring May 21, for example, ignoring the idea that Judgment Day is coming. I would agree that's very dangerous to ignore the fact that Judgment Day is coming. Well, now that the Bible, God has through the Bible given us the time information, it's dangerous to ignore that, because it's information from the Bible. Why would you want to ignore it anyway? But in 1 Thessalonians 5, verse 3, there are verses there that talk about people for whom it's going to come as a thief in the night. Or Revelation 3, 3 is good, too, and it's poignant. If you do not watch, I will come on you as a thief, and you will not know in what hour I come. See the condition?

If you don't watch, I'll come on you as a thief, and you won't know the hour. And 1 Thessalonians 5 talks about that, too. And so if you're going to ignore information in the Bible, that's a problem. Sure. Whether it's about the Judgment Day coming, whether it's about salvation, whether it's about whatever topic in the Bible. There's a standard question about, you know, no one, and maybe you just answered it, but so it's no one will know the date or the time, not even the sun. So what's the context of that relative to what we're talking about? Yeah. When Jesus said that, it was totally a true statement, right? I mean, but he didn't say, no one shall ever know the day or hour. You know what I mean? He just doesn't say that. There's other information in the Bible that shows us that at the time of the end, not before that. So during the Church Age, we can't expect to know. And I'm giving you guys a quick paraphrase, right? Yeah. But what's the verse? Like Acts 1-7 is a commonly used verse to explain this, where Jesus is telling the disciples

who had just asked him, are you now going to restore your earthly kingdom? See, they were focused on what's going on down here. And Jesus was still all about spiritual stuff. He says, it's not for you to know times or seasons, which God has placed in his own power. Now that's an interesting verse. It helps us to understand it because the Bible tells us about seasons. So if it's not for us to know ever about seasons, why does the Bible tell us about them? He says in Matthew 24, when you see the fig tree put forth its leaves, you know, summer is near. Summer is a season. God's telling us some information about seasons. And so it turns out that the disciples weren't to know that. The people during the church age, they weren't to know that. But there's a time at the end when it's God's program to reveal that information about time. And we are definitely in that. And Daniel chapter 12, verses 4 and 9 get into that, where Daniel is asking God for the clarification, explanation on a vision he had about the end. God tells him, go thy way and seal up the words for the time of the end. In the time of the end, knowledge shall be increased. All right. That was Steve Brooks.

He's with Boone Bible Ministries. Thanks for coming on, Steve. We appreciate you sharing your time with us. Thank you. We're going to take a quick break, and we'll be right back with you. You've been listening to Live from the Path. But I see and I think of all the hope that brought me this life. I have been to judge wrong from what I've ever called certain. My race, my religion. And you're listening to Live from the Path on livefromthepath.org. Boy, how are you? All right. So we just got done talking with Steve Brooks from the book Boone Bible Ministries. My brain hurts. Man, I tell you, he knows his Bible. I'll give him that. Yeah. He knows his Bible. I'd have to say this. I find this interpretation. He knows verses.

Yeah. That's a difference than knowing your Bible. This is my biggest thing. And maybe we should have talked about it. Maybe it wouldn't have done any good. I'm fairly certain it would have done no good. But it just doesn't seem biblically consistent. You know, especially the no one gets through the Father except through me. That seems huge for me. That's a huge verse for me. My sacrifice is what covers for your sins. It's paid once. Well, when you start with the premise that the church age is over, so anything we know is wrong. And how do you know that? Well, you just know. Boy, that's an awkward room, isn't it? Yes. It's like, by the way, you three guys are pulling your way off. Well, I was going to ask him, like, if it's a ruler, you know, of your works, and you can't just say, okay, I'm on board with the end times, you know? Like, how many sins do I have to fix? Do I even have enough time?

You know, like, how much time is enough time for me to say that I've fixed it? Like, do I just live one awesome day and then hope the rapture comes tomorrow because I've conquered it today? You know, you don't need a lot. It seems to me that you don't need a life of any type of obedience. Well, I mean, the base premise of Christianity is you have no shot at getting there on your own, right? But it took Jesus. It took Jesus to pay for the sins. And so his angle, and it's not inconsistent with, you know, base Calvinism, but is that, you know, there's a certain elect group of people who are going to get in. And frankly, anything else we do, if we're not in that, it just works. It's good works, but it's not enough. But it shouldn't be. Like, I would agree with that point. What I don't understand is I would agree works are not enough, but my belief in Christ, I thought I was supposed to do it. Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, you know, a different way of looking at that verse, too, is it says faith without works is dead, right? So somebody did the work. Jesus did the work. You know what I'm saying? Like, your faith in the work. I mean, it's not enough to bolster you to a sedentary Christian lifestyle. But faith without works is dead.

But Jesus did the work. Well, I mean, and it's true. A good tree doesn't bear bad fruit. So, I mean, like, if you're following Christ, if you're living the life that he's directed you to, you will produce good things. But you will never produce perfection. You are incapable of doing so because sin still exists in the world that you live in and in the body that you are given. And so, to that extent, the Bible is a ruler. Like, you will never be as tall as the Bible. The Bible is a ruler. You will always fall short. You know what I'm saying? Why even send your own son to die if you're going to yardstick a measurement? He sent him because we can't make it. God sent his son because we can't make it. Well, and to seek and save the lost. That seems to be everybody. You know. That's why I was trying to make everything connect. I sat here, I think, with a dumbfounded look on my face. There was a lot of things I was trying to connect. I thought that was just your usual.

That's my usual. But this time it was true on the inside, too. I was just like, and I was so dumbfounded I didn't even know what to ask. You know, I'm not a deep theologian type of guy. I'm kind of a general practice guy, I guess. But it was a fairly heavy conversation with individual Bible verses picked and woven together. Which is, frankly, very hard to follow if you don't know that ahead of time. You know what I'm saying? It's very easy to go. I mean, the Bible is a huge book. There's a lot of words in there. And there's a lot of things that you can take from here and take from here and put together as a puzzle and say, we got trouble. You know, and so if you don't see that coming, then, you know, anybody has to think about it and go, that sounds fishy, but I'm not sure why. I'm not sure what's wrong with that. But there's something very – I'm not on board with all that, you know. And, you know, the thing I was hoping to take away from the whole conversation is that we did get sidetracked, you know, because I more have a problem with his view of salvation than I do with the end times being whenever. Like, I mean, he could be wrong. The end times could be tomorrow. You know, like, I mean, if the whole point is, like, you should be adjusting your faith in Christ, you should – now's the time to turn over to God and say, look, I want to live how you want me to live. Let's do this thing, you know, starting now. Well, and scripturally, yeah, we're to be ready always.

Right. Right now. I should be ready right now because at any moment, at any second, he can come back. We have free reign for, you know, a few days here. We can do whatever we want, I guess. However, if you're – whatever his definition of saved is, I guess you wouldn't. That's what I can't nail down. What is that definition? It seems like it's a benchmark against biblical teachings, and I'm like, well, which one? All of them? You know, every single one? I mean, because there's – I don't think there's anything I could do to get saved. And that was the point. And actually, I might have to give him a thumbs up on, you know – I mean, in his mind, the three of us are going to hell. In 19 days, we're done. Yeah. You know? And there was no real help. There's nothing to do about it. I was willing to disband a church. There's nothing we could do.

We are absolutely done. So that was a valid point. So that's why I tell anybody. Yeah, that's the part I don't quite get. It was all swirling around in my head. Unless the thought, I suppose, could be that if you have a certain elect of people that are going to come to Christ, their way of doing so happens to be in the last days by the billboard. Yeah, but they're – Because God works everything out. If they're elected, they've done it anyway. Well, you – Right? Well, no. Is that what – is that the logic is? Is that they are elected to do it, so they're going to do it, and God's using the billboard as the conduit to get it done. Yeah. And because he needs – That's that new revelation or something. Because he needs the billboard, he needs – Well, and it's kind of a weird step. If you're going to choose an elect, why go through the process?

You know what I'm saying? Like, seek and save everybody, I get. You know, because everybody's lost. Everybody needs – you know, it says that, you know, God wants everybody to be saved. It's his desire. Yeah. What's the verse where it says God is not slow. God is patient, waiting for people to – it's got to be Peter somewhere, right? God is not so – he's patient. You know, he's a patient father waiting for his children to come back. You know, why would a – Not wanting anyone to perish. Yeah. Why would someone who already has the elect figured out be patient for what? Just – he just picked a guy that was 5,000 years apart from the other guys, and he's like, well, I guess we've got to wait on Fred. As soon as he comes around. I don't know why I picked him. I mean, he's really – he's not with the rest of the pack. He takes forever, you know, but he's in the elect. I guess we have to wait. Wait, God's ruined by his own technicality?

Well, no, and I think that's – the point is that it could be by people. It could be a generic term. You know, like the Jews are God's people. He could be saying his people defines the segment of the people who are the elect. So, I mean, whatever. I don't happen to believe that. No. Let's hope not. I think I'm in trouble. Well, that's the thing. It's very generic. Like the word God's people, you know, like that can be – there's ten different interpretations there. It could mean Jewish by birth. It could be Jewish – you know, it could be faith, you know, like born into the faith as the relationship of God's people, you know. And so, I mean, you know, there's a lot of interpretations that could be taken that way when that's what they're talking about. Well, and I think it's pretty easy to stand outside of the church circle and point fingers at the church and say, you are unrighteous. Like for a while, I thought I was talking to a Mormon, you know, well, if you're part of the church, you're part of the apostate, you know, you're – if you're the enemy of God and you want to make his sacrifice null and void, wouldn't you get as many people out of the church as possible? Yeah. By saying, oh, that's where you don't want to be? Yeah. Well, you know, and actually, you know, I'll be the first one to raise my hand and say the church screwed some stuff up, you know, and say –

Oh, the human side of it, sure. You know, because there's everybody's involved. The institution. Right, and, you know, it's not even just the – you know, it's not even just the church. It's the people in it, and that's the – the thing is, like, all of it points right back to Jesus Christ. All of it points right back to why we need the Savior because we're junk, you know, like we can't do anything right. Yeah. We even – even at our greatest bookmark, you know, bench ruler test up against the Bible will fail. I mean, look at even all the Bible heroes of the Old Testament. They're terrible, you know. I mean, now, granted, the Bible depicts these things for a reason, not because they justified them in the Lord's eyes, but the Lord uses it as a teaching tool to, you know, to show, you know, the struggles and, frankly, His glory through the whole thing. But, you know, we can't – we can't make it. And so, you know, the whole premise is that, look, the church is screwed up. They're doing unrighteous things. You know, there's problems within the church, that's true. And, actually, heretical problems where people are teaching a false doctrine, that's a big issue to the church, you know. But, like, generalized sin, it's there. It's part of the – it's people. You know, that's people being people. People being people.

You know, but, I mean, that's the reason we needed Jesus, and that's the reason God sent them, because we loved us so much despite that. Yeah. I don't know, the biblical picture we get of God's enemies doesn't describe me, you know. I mean, I hope – I have the Bible. I have the same Bible He has. And I look at the – I look at God's enemies. And, granted, the sin within me, absolutely, the – I don't know, the medium through which sin is carried out through the world steal me, you know. But, I don't know, my fallible heart for Christ doesn't – it seems like exactly what he is targeting, not what he is declaring as incapable and unable to be with him in heaven. Well, I think that's where I run into real problems is when people's interpretation butts heads with actual verse. You know what I'm saying? Like, when you say that there's – you know, that your works will be put up against a benchmark and whatever, and elect or chosen, you know. And then you look at the verse that says, all have fallen short of the glory of God. All. So, here's your interpretation of what salvation is. Here's a direct verse that there's no interpretation needed. You know, and we're butting heads why. You know, like, I mean, the inspired Word of God should be – you know, the – there's – I don't know. Like, I always believe that there's certain things that can be interpreted differently, you know, like, I don't know. I can't think of anything right off the top of my head.

Well, the God's people is one of them. You know, whether the inheritance in the New Jerusalem are God's people or the Abraham's people, you know, direct bodily descendants of Abraham or, like, you know, in the faith people, you know, Jews. Right, right. You know, so, I mean, there's an interpretation thing that's, like, it's secondary. It's not a big deal, you know. But I always thought the universal truths of the Bible, if you're a Bible-believing person, that the universal things aren't disputed. Like, I am the way, the truth, and the life. The only way to the Father is through me. Jesus – you know, God so loved the world, he sent his only son so he would die so you would live eternally. I thought these things were undisputable. But apparently there's interpretations of these that I'm not getting. That's where my problem is. It seems that he's taken the power out of God – out of Jesus' sacrifice. And, frankly, my entire faith is based on that. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's a – I kept thinking through my head that, you know, the doctrines taught by demons thing. You know, and I'm just going, wow, what a clever – how clever, you know. Yeah. Very articulate with the word, you know, but so off. Right. I mean, wow.

Well, and once again, you know that – I mean, those interpretations – you know that I was thinking while he was talking, too, is I thought every example I can think of of when someone says God's going to come down here in a big way, you better straighten it up. No one ever does anything. Ever. I mean, I guess I don't know the details of the Jonah story directly with Nineveh, right? But so Noah says – He ran. Well, no, no. But he ran to go tell the people of God's destruction to come, right? Well, that's what he was supposed to do, and then he ran, and then he got eaten by the whale, spit up on the thing, and then God had to ask him again. And then he went. And then he went. Right. Did they change? And people repented, yeah. Well, and he – but he was pissed about it. Like, Jonah didn't want it. Yeah, he didn't like it. He was mad about the repentance.

Because God said, all right, no judgment because you repented. That doesn't seem to be what's going on in this May 21st business. No. And I still – you know, there truly is no plan for May 22nd. I mean, I'm hoping they canceled all of the radio contracts. Actually, so I did read that the guy who runs the family – so Harold Campy is kind of like the guy that runs it. I know nothing about these guys. But there's a sale – I listened to his radio program back when I was working nights a long time ago, and he's very dry, very, very dry. And can we take our next call, please? Welcome to Open Forum. You can hear him turning the pages of the Bible. Yeah. Yeah, he doesn't use computer by software. He goes – And then you hear the pages turn. He goes – You can hear the 80 years of tobacco in his throat. It makes you think of an oil lamp. This guy – he kind of – his voice kind of sounded like it. I wasn't going to say anything.

I think there's a reason. I don't know. You know, the false prophet thing kind of threw me off a little bit. I mean – Well, once again, that's another interpretation. Like, is it really, though? Is that really the definition of a false prophet? I mean, he can say that – like, here's the question. What is the definition of a false prophet, then? And a guy that prophesies something and is dead wrong, if he doesn't qualify, who qualifies? Well, here's the question. If you didn't hear it from the Lord, why would you say it? You know what I'm saying? Like, you say, well, it's not technically a false prophet because he didn't claim to hear something directly from the Lord and then put it out. Right. The end of the world is tomorrow, Ben Foose told me. See, and technically they can say that for this, too. They are interpreting Scripture to say May 21st. So when it's wrong, they can go, well, men are fallible. This is – okay, so this is where I get – this is where my mind has trouble with this, right? Like, are people on this line of thinking, this is hard to not do it from a pious standpoint, so I'm going to do my best not to do it from that standpoint, right?

But the majority of the Christian faith does not believe that this is the case, right? Correct. I could condense this down. You want to know, is he a heretic or a dummy? Right, right. That's what you're asking. Well, basically, like, is he a dangerous heretic or misguided? Yes. If his doctrine is taught by demons, dangerous. How do you know? Well, here's – the thing is they're tough to pick out. I think you have people that are generally misguided. They – and I believe this a lot. I think you have – in any group of people, you have 10% that are foul and that are driving things to – purposely that they know are wrong. I think you have 90% of the people that are following, thus the sheep, who will follow the person that is moving simply for the fact that they're moving, not because they've thought – he said, you know, I checked it out myself, but really all he did was go to familyradio.com, see what that guy wrote, and then agree with him. Well, right. I mean, to truly – that's the thing is, like, I've read the Bible. Well, I'm not getting any of this. Of course, I haven't read Proverbs. We've talked about that.

No, that is a good point. God – he said, didn't that guy say God told him to put the billboards up? He did say that, yeah. Yes. And see, this is another problem that I get into is – Steve, put up billboards. I'm really shaky on people that say that God told them to do anything. Now, the problem is, is that he can do that. You know, and so I have a – maybe there's, you know, the spiritual gift of discernment. Maybe I don't have it. And maybe the Lord's done that for a reason, to just say, stay out of things. Maybe you're just not saved. Maybe 19 days and I'm done. You know, I – like, I have a very hard time discerning when people say, the Holy Spirit led me to do this. Or especially when they say told, like when they have a definite, you know, God told me to put up billboards. Really? How? Really? How did he do that? I'm saying – here's what – it's not that it can't be done. No, no.

I'm just interested. I'm interested to know because, like, I haven't – I didn't receive anything in the post. I'm interested to know how God interacts in our world. Well, that's the truth, but, too, I don't know. I don't know. It's not like God has any qualifications for who he talks to and who he doesn't. You know, he talks to the unrighteous the same as he talks to the righteous. You know? So this is difficult because with an all-knowing, all-powerful God, anything is possible. So anything you say, I don't know about that, it very well could have been. Well, that's true. He couldn't do it. He'll do whatever he wants. Like, I almost certainly never negate the power that God can do anything that he wants to. But I guess it goes back to biblical consistency. You know, like, how often did God actually come down and speak to somebody and say, here's the roast? Here's what – especially with a specific job. Here's what I want you doing. Oh, I mean, at times, but usually it's a big deal. Well, it's a real big deal. Not billboards.

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think the thing about the – we're based upon – They're effective, though. That's a shrewd move with that organizational thing. I don't know. I caught a guy – there's a guy that sits in front of me at work, and I was talking to him about it, that we're going to have Steve on the show. And, like, every time – he's driven by that thing 50 times or however long it's been up there. I had no idea it was there. Doesn't look at it. Really? I think he's texting. I've never seen where is this. Well, it's on – if you're taking 235 or 35 into downtown, it turns into 235. It's a prime location. In fact, when I was – It's pretty scary. When I was getting the information to get a hold of him, I saw it one day, and I'm like, we're going to have to have him on. So I passed it, and then I just saw it blink on as I passed. So I whipped a U-turn and came back around and pulled over to the shoulder and just sit there and waited for it. Because an electronic billboard, you know, flashes in. So I was sitting on the side of the road waiting for it to show back up so I could write it down.

I wouldn't have put in such a pressing email if I thought – if I didn't know it was just a one-man organization. The domain name familyradio.com is registered through March of 2012. I mean, I saw – I'm just curious. Like, are there a bunch of followers of the – I know nothing about this family radio thing. My wife called me and goes, hey, man, there's a bunch of people in a giant bus that says, like, the end is near driving next to her on the highway. Oh, yeah. They pulled into the Altoona Walmart last week. I saw them in a four-man RV paragate. So are they unloading all their cash right now? I mean, would you have fun? Well, that's the thing is – Let's go to Disneyland. You probably can't, right? Although – Because he's saying – Can you lose it, though? Can you lose being worthy elect? But think of what he's saying. He's saying you could do that. You could do whatever you wanted, but they won't because they're obedient. They're waiting.

No, they wouldn't be being obedient if they weren't doing this. So, like, the type of thing you think, oh, I got until the 21st. I'll do whatever I want, and then I'm good as gold. If you were the elect, you would know this, and you wouldn't act like that. So is this family radio dude going to say, hey, on May 20th, everybody empty your bank account and send it to me because I have the way? Well, where else are you going to put your tithe? I mean, if you're out of the local church. Because you don't have a church. You're out of the local church. And you've got to obey God. God says the tithe. It takes a very hubristic fellow to say, I don't even know what that means. At the least. You've got some machismo on you. Yeah. When you're going to pump out this kind of thing. It's to say, get out of the church. Send to me. You know what I'm saying, Mike? Maybe this is my biblical misunderstanding, okay? So, but, like, is this church age, am I missing the actuality of the way this church age thing works?

The church age is the church age until Jesus comes back to claim his bride. And everyone will know. Where are they getting that at? I don't know. The church age has ended. That sounds like they're making broad jumps and then just going with that. And I'm still back at the thing going, no, wait a minute. We're still in the church age. You know, that's, it's like, wait a minute. Now you're four steps away and I'm going, oh, we're still here, though. We're still in the church age. Well, see, and I meant to ask him this, too, is it seems like, you know, the whole, the message is, is that, you know, like, you would just know because you're one of the elect. You would know. Well, if that's the truth, you don't need the math. You know, like, and, and, and, you know, frankly, one of the verses was is that the, one of the standing points on the website was is the first points to believers will know. You know, the elect will know. Well, the problem is is once you know and then you put it on a billboard, now everybody knows. So now believers and non-believers know. So what you just said isn't true. So you're right. Is it the guy that, only guy that put the billboard up is solid.

Everybody else is just a bystander who happened to caught it. Right, right. So I'll have to dig up the exact verse that he had on his website. But there was a way, the verse that he pointed to says that believers would know and then because of that, you know, that makes this date solid. And then I thought, well, as soon as you know and tell somebody else, especially a non-believer, now your statement that believers will know is not really true because now believers and non-believers know because you just told them. That's a good point, though. Let's think about it this way. This is just now coming out. I don't know. Maybe he's had this out there for a while, any time post-1994. But I've just seen the billboards recently. Let's call it in the last month or so. If the church age ended 20 years ago in 1989 or 1988, boy, I would have been beating the drum back then. You know? Yeah. Because if a day is like 1,000 years to God, 20 years is next to nothing. It's right at your doorstep. So, I mean, if you were going to make some headway, I would have done it. 1989, 1990, all the way through 2011? I don't know. Okay, so here's the verse.

I do know. So it was that 1 Thessalonians verse, 1 Thessalonians 5, 1 through 5. It says, But of the times and seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon you, and travail upon a woman with child, and they shall not escape. Blah, blah, blah. So that's two believers. Right. But it says, But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are the children of light, and the children of the day. We are not of the night, nor of the darkness. So here's the interpretation. Many people with some familiarity with the Bible know the first part of the passage, Jesus will come as a thief in the night. However, pay careful attention to the rest of the passage, and notice that the Bible says that the day of the Lord will not come as a thief on the believers. The believers, the brethren, are not in darkness. God is hammering home the point that the believers are in the light of the day, not the night. And if Jesus is coming as a thief in the night, and the believers are in the day, then there is no way that Jesus can come as a thief on them.

What are you looking at me? Well, that's… There was too much reading there. I don't know if I'm following. Sorry. So basically what he's saying is that they say Jesus will come as a thief in the night, but ye believers are not in the night. You're in the day. You're in the light. You're not in the dark. And so they take that to say that because people who believe are in the light, Jesus can't come as a thief in the night because they're standing in the day all the time. See, his point is, Jesus' point is, so stay awake, so don't fall asleep, so always be prepared. Right. Because if you fall asleep, you're not prepared, so always be prepared for his return. He doesn't say, so you'll know the date. The point is, when the date comes, you're ready. Right. You're following, you're in a good relationship, that whole thing. It's a twist. Just a subtle twist. Man, I come off all these good questions. I have to already left.

I should have kept them around. The other question I was going to ask him was, because the tie-in to, because, you know, I read that verse, or what's the verse that says, not even the, only the Father knows, not the Son, when he'll come back. Yeah. And Jesus says that, right? Sure. So their point is that Jesus is God, therefore Jesus knows. So that breaks it down to a major spiritual doctrine difference that we would have is one God, three persons. That would be a huge doctrinal difference on where we stand here. Like, that's not even Calvinism. You know what I'm saying? Like, even Calvinists believe that there's, it's one God, three separate people. The Trinity thing. And they believe, and they're so saying that because Jesus is God, there's no way that Jesus couldn't know and God could know. Well, then, in that same respect, there's no way that God could sit on the throne and have someone sitting on the right-hand side next to him. He would be taking up two chairs. That would have been a good question. With one God. That's the tie-in because people will always say, you know, they'll point right back to the verse that I used that only, you know, Jesus, the Son doesn't know, only the Father knows. And so their tie-in is that they're one and the same. So that's a problem. Like, that's a doctrinal problem.

Like, that's a biblical issue because the Bible points to that everywhere. Even in the beginning it says we, you know, we should make this, you know. It's not just him. You know, it's God, the Son, and the Holy Spirit making stuff, you know. He refers to himself as we. And so that's a doctrinal problem if they're not two separate identities because if they're not, God sacrificed himself and not his own son. And so that's a big issue. Man, I wish I had thought of that when he was here. Dang it. I was trying to listen intently. I can't decide whether to say repent or, you know, okay, you know. I can't ever decide whether it's my job just to sit there and go, okay, I understand where you're coming from. You know, like, be nice. Yeah, maybe we're just too nice. I'm not buying what you're saying. Yeah. I mean, what could we do to argue? We're not going to change him. He's not going to change us. No, and he's not kind of like, get into it. I think he knows his Bible verses more than me.

Like, he's just come up with them quicker than I could. I think interpretation, maybe. Yeah, you've got to like a guy who knows his verses. We picked him out. No, I don't think he's using them right. No, no. Sure, use them. That was wild. I think that was, I don't know, it was very interesting. It was, it was, you know, yeah. I have to kind of listen to it again, like tomorrow, and just go, oh, why didn't I say that? It'll be so obvious to me tomorrow because I've already heard it and processed it overnight, you know. Well, you know, and actually, I almost appreciate the conversation, to be honest with you, because I like, you know, I've never been pushed to actually think about it and back it up biblically. You know, usually I'll just go, ah, that's ridiculous. Yeah, exactly. You know. I know what I believe. What's wrong with you? Why is that ridiculous? And I don't think about it.

And then I'll have to wait until, you know, someone like Steve will say, here's why it's true. And then I can go, okay, I need biblical examples why this is ridiculous. And, you know, I feel a little stronger that I have them. You know, that I'm not just, you know, sitting on a pious judgment seat going, my church man never talked about this to me. Well, you know why? Because he's part of the devil. That's right. He's part of the system. Get away from me. Anybody that tries to preach you the holy gospel, bad news. Bad. Body of believers, no good. He's getting you to come to church, isn't he? That was very disheartening to me. You know, and actually very disheartening to me that he, you know, that they can't surround themselves with the body of believers. You know what I'm saying? That's kind of lonely. That's kind of sad. You know, that was what the church was set up for, man. Well, actually, I mean, sitting in his chair, that's a very awkward thing to come in and tell a group of people. And so if you're going out in truth, it takes a lot to do that in a situation like this.

If he feels like what he's saying is true and that what we think or say or believe is not true, it does take something to show up and say, hey, you guys are going to make it. You're still in the church. You're not going to make it. And so, like, there's a couple things that I've kind of taken from him and I think from this thing in general that are legitimate areas for us to show improvement on. The one is to boldly proclaim truth. I don't think his truth is consistent biblically. However, to boldly proclaim it, he's right. We are, you know, we are to obey in that instance, you know, regardless of the cost for the benefit of other people to hear the message of Jesus Christ. And so you do have to appreciate that type of action in this type of atmosphere. And he didn't do it in a judgmental way. No, no, no, no, no, he didn't. It was very, it was very civil discourse. And frankly, you know, I could see his frame of mind, like, if I truly thought that God set me on a path. I mean, look at, look at the way everyone reacted to Noah when he went on his crazy man rant, building a giant boat in the middle of the desert with no rain in sight for any reason. You know, for, for hundreds of years, he's building this thing and he's considered a crazy Pentecostal lunatic, you know. He's a Pentecostal. They said he was referred to as an evangelist in the New Testament. I assume he was, he was outlandish. He was, he was out there. He's excitable. So I think he was looking at us the same way we looked at the Atheist Convention.

I agree. Kind of like, I feel sorry for you. Yes. You don't get it. That's exactly why. You know? Yep. And then he looks as, you know, you don't believe, we look at the Atheists and we say, you know, you don't believe what I believe, but I'm going to pray for you. Even though you're certain, I'm going to pray that God changes your heart. And you're exactly right. I think he's looking at us the same way and said, look, I, you know, I'll pray for you. I love you guys. And I hope that God changes your heart. But it won't be doing any good. Well, you might be the elect. You may just not know it yet. Well, if I'm the elected, I have nothing to worry about. That's not the way it works, Mike. Oh, man. I don't understand it. If you're the elect.

Jesus died for me. That's all I know. If you're the elect. I'm so confused. I know. At what point do you ooze into this? Right. I'm doing everything right. I'm just, I'm the elect. Right. I'm just a humble servant of Christ. You know what? I'm fantastic. I'm the elect. Yes. Where's my specific chapter and verse that describes me in all my greatness? Well, you know, Paul talks about where there is hope. But, like, what hope do we really have? What hope would you really have in a system of you're the elect, you're not the elect? I don't, I don't necessarily have hope. I might have, like, falsified dreams or the thoughts that I have hope.

But, really, I wouldn't know whether I actually had hope or not. You know, unless they started putting a password in a lock in the Bible so that only people who legitimately have hope could take a look. Well, you know, that was my other question, right, is why would the, why would the Lord provide his word for everyone if it only applies to few? That seems very, I don't know. Like, as many biblical examples there are of a just and fair God, especially, like you just said, the double jeopardy thing, you know, the double punishment. Why would he send his own son to die for our sins? Or why would he punish his own son when our sins are going to be punished anyway? You know, like, there's to be so many biblical precedents over God's justice and equality. And then why would he apply his salvation, you know, only to a select group of people? I don't know. I'm having a hard time with that. And this elect, is there only 144,000? Is that like, you know, I was going to ask that. I thought, I don't know. I'm pretty sure he's not Jehovah's Witness. Yeah. Well, they're pulling other things out. I think he would have bitten your ear off if you'd asked him that. I think so. He'd be very upset. I mean, how do you know?

How do you know when you've reached them all? I don't know. Rich singer. I don't know, man. That's, I don't know. That was rough. You're going to be a twinge of, uh, twinge of nervousness on May 21st? I don't think so. I might have to put it in my calendar so I remember. Oh, yeah. Today was supposed to be the rapture. And actually, I didn't get to, I felt like if I asked this, he would be, he would, not that he would take it the wrong way, because he seems like a pretty, pretty. He's heard it all. He's a fair guy. And like the, you know, you know, what do you do on May 22nd with 23rd, 24th, you know, like obviously he's probably heard that before. Is that, but is he trying to say he's gone? Like that's it? The 21st, he's gone? Or that starts the tribulation and he's got.

Oh, he's gone. It's over. No, he's gone. Yeah. We're still here. And the rest of us have. Until October. We have enough time to try to straighten things out? No. No. We just, hell on earth. We just have time to get beat up for a while. Man. I still do this? There's nothing we can do. No. I wouldn't. No. But I was going to ask about this Hebrew calendar. Like, is it on Greenwich Mean Time? Like, who's getting it first?

Yeah, right. London? Yeah. Be weary. Be weary, O Easter. Actually, I saw there was a website that was doing a, that were, they were throwing parties around the clock of the non-tribulation or survival of the rapture of like, so every hour they're going to fire up like a web, a webcam. And here's the thing is like, it totally misses the benefit of this conversation, which is, are you ready? If it was the 21st, are you ready? If it was tomorrow, are you ready? If it was in the next 10 minutes, are you ready? Yeah. Like, it serves a legitimate place to say, you know, reset yourself. Are you really ready? Are you really paying attention to what this could be? Right. Well, and actually, I think it's a direct contradiction with that theocracy is you can't do enough to earn your way into heaven. Excuse me?

What was that word you used? Theocracy. Okay, go ahead. I said it right. I'm going to look it up. Anyway, like you can't, you can't do enough works to earn your way into heaven. The whole point is that you can't make it. The whole point is the salvation of Jesus dying on the cross for your punishment. Yeah. That is, that is it. That's the be all, end all. That's it right there. And by that salvation, I used it right. What is it? A system of government by priests claiming a divine commission. Yeah. That theocracy. They're not priests. They're not in the church. Oh, where'd you get it from? Vagabond theocracy.

That's what you meant. Anyway. People outside the system. Go ahead. Continue with your poignant discourse. Jesus is the way, the truth, and life. Bids a heretic. No. This hurt my brain. That's all I got to say. It was a lot. That's what we were going to try to soften it up with Deuteronomy, Dan. And what did you do with yourself? This whole day hurt my brain. That's my problem. I got here with that. I'm already. I'm spent. I'm spent. And I got here. I thought, man, this is not the night for me to be spent.

I need to be here fresh. I got here. I usually am here about an hour before the show preparing. I get here with three minutes to spare. Oh. It's a rough go. Man. I've been thinking about. I've been trying to think about it all day and think about legitimate questions to kind of, you know. Yeah, I'm glad you were asking him because I couldn't. You were doing good. Yeah, I'm saying. I know this guy. His name's Ben. Thanks, boys. He's part of the elect right over here. Keep it going. Yeah. I'm surprised he didn't grab you and say, let's get out of here, Ben. There's still hope for you yet. Have you seen my billboards?

Mike and I, we'll be starting our next church. Let's start another one. Ten minutes out the door. So should we plan another church? Yes. Let's do it. Boy. Boy, we'll be sorry if he was right. It's true. Isn't that a kick in the pants? All the church planting people out there are like, oh, no. We've let tons of people astray. Here's the thing. Here's the most potentially depressing part. If he's right, we're screwed. There's nothing we can do. And there's only, what, 17 people who aren't? Yeah. I don't know how many people watched there. Well, there's only 2% to 3% was the guess. What?

And how many people? 2% to 3% of the world's population. But the only way you know is by listening to their radio program. Yeah. They're on a little band. There's not that many people. No, no. They're worldwide. Are they? Yeah. Now, do you happen to be listening to that radio at that point in time? Eh. Go to their website? I'd really like to be listening to that radio station where it all goes. I'm so confused. I want Jesus. I don't know how to find him. Yeah. Yeah. I guess I'm not elect. I didn't get it.

Yeah. I don't understand. I don't get Calvinism. He didn't really answer the question, how are people saved? Yeah. He responded to what happens when they are saved. But, like, so here's the tautology, which is, you know, it means something goes around. One thing leads to another. Hold on a minute. Which leads to another. I will do the checking. Anyway, what is your braggadocio? Yeah, I was thinking about doing it too. So the tautology is, is like, how can you, to be saved, you don't, you believe, oh, shoot. I'm trying to find the best way to describe it because I didn't quite understand the difference was. Good works don't save you. The death of Christ saves you. However, just believing that Jesus died for your sins is not enough. How do you stack up against the Bible? I mean, at some point it was like, I think it was like, okay, Galatians 5, the fruits of

the spirit, love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, all of a sudden you look up and go, hey, I'm full of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, you know, I must be saved. I better get out of the church. How can it be everybody? I'm full of love. I better get out of here. I mean, agreed that sometimes they get it wrong, but how can it be every church, everybody in it? Everybody? Here's the disaster. It's like today, I was listening to some sermons and I was praying over my lunch hour or whatever and a guy popped in my head and all I thought of was like, he needs to get going to church. He needs to get a community group and he needs to get into some accountability and someone needs to go talk to him about this and maybe I'm the guy and I'm praying on it. I'm like, maybe I am the guy. Someone needs to go talk to this fella. And then he comes in and I'm like, I was just about to steer someone into Babylon, apparently. What a mistake. You know, like, hey, Bill, come into Sodom with me. Like, you know, we're all going down. Yeah. Like, what would be the point of, because his response basically to our position was, you

know, God has allowed us to be confused and been given over to unrighteousness. And granted, by me saying this sure doesn't feel like unrighteousness, he would say it wouldn't because God has allowed you to be confused and given over to unrighteousness. But, like, when everything else you're pursuing seems to be after biblical consistency, like, I don't know. It would seem to me if that were the case, and forgive me for saying this, but God would be confusing. God would be creating a confusing doctrine. He's not the author of confusion. Yeah, but it's so ambiguous. It was just like, well, but… I'll tell you what I do know. The world is not May 21st. I'll tell you that. Well, I'm saying, well, see, now the only reason it's not is because they made a big hub on it. Well, that's what I'm saying. That's the only reason it's not is because it said it was. Could be the 20th. It could be the 20th. Well, actually, the one thing I thought when we were talking about, people will be rejoicing

or feeling peace, right? Maybe it's the 22nd. People are feeling like, whew, we made it. Bypassed it. Well, I should ask this, because with my daughter going to National History Day now, we're going to Washington, D.C. in the middle of June. Do I buy my tickets? Because what happens if we're missed? We go to church, and she goes to church, so therefore she's pagan. So, Jesus comes back and gets the elect. Are we… What's their tribulation view? Are we going to be here with all the lawless guy? Yeah, we fit in that same category. Okay, so we should go ahead and still plan on the Washington, D.C. trip. Should we still have church then? Because Obama's going to be there for sure. Right. Yes, I think we still have to have church. Well, we will go… Here's the deal.

We will not cease to go on meeting like some are prone to. You should read Hebrews. We will be meeting. Except for the end of the church. And they will cease meeting. I wish someone would do an expose on the book of Hebrews. Oh, I should do that. What do you think? Should I do Hebrews? Boy, that's a tough… I'm really thinking about it. It's a dense one, Dan. You're going to have to get some puppets or something. See? See? Get yourself a Melchizedek puppet. Then you've got yourself something. I appear in every one of the Bible. I would like to give you 10%. No, okay. Thank you, Abraham.

Let me ask this question. Melchizedek puppet. You fashion one. I wouldn't even begin to try. Carson. Is it natural to feel hesitancy about God's return, given your attachments to the world that you're in? Someone who says, I love Jesus. I know that he died for my sins and that he's coming back. But, Boyle, I feel like I'm going to miss this. I think it is a sign of spiritual shallowness. And I've been there. I mean, I remember before I was married thinking, you know, there's a few things in life I want to experience. Marriage would solve some of that, you know. If Jesus came back, I probably wouldn't have been that disappointed. I think maybe I'm thinking about not that. Well, I'm just saying that was a shallow thing. I love you guys. Where do I go with this? He did it again.

Here's what I'm going to miss. I swear to you, the guy, we just need a picture of Dan that comes up and goes, whoopee. I waited until almost 1130. The night crew's on. The kids are off now. Boy, I would hate to be married to the chatter who said, to be clear, that isn't why I would miss this world. Well, we got a little insight there. But that was an honest… I'm unfortunate. You know what? Bring it on. May 21, I'm ready. My covenant is over. It's time for me to part ways. It's… Woo! Bummer. That came out wrong, huh? Yeah. It got any better.

Well, what's really great, though, is about two weeks after the wedding, the comment being, that's it? Like, hey. Hey. That's what all this is about? I'm going to go read Hebrews. Where's my puppet? The thought is… I think perhaps the thought is a little bit of fear of the unknown. Like… Sure. The Bible is… It's a glorious return, and heaven is fantastic, but we really… It's hard to put heaven in to the terms of what we think of when we think great. So I think perhaps it's a bit of a fear of the unknown. And, you know, I won't get to see my kids grow up. Yeah. Yeah. That kind of thing. But then also, you know, there's these descriptions of heaven, and they sound really awesome. Or, preachers try to make it sound awesome, but you're sitting there listening to this

going, okay, gold's cool, but I don't know, gold streets? Really? I don't know. I want to sing all day long? Really? I was talking to Ben about this a couple days ago, and we were talking about, you know, like, you have a special place that you're set apart in heaven. Your throne, you know, his kingdom will be in heaven, and you will be part of… Your reward will be in heaven. I'm like… And, like, you know, the first thing that comes to mind is like, wow, you know, I don't really want anything super fancy, you know? Like, I'd really love to know Jesus. 78 Pinto? You know, like, I really want to meet Jesus who did these things for me. You know, about, like, the all day and the glorious and the comfy pillows, or I… You know, like, maybe it's just the perception of heaven that's off. You know? Yeah. I mean, it's just… It's just…

Described to, you know, first century, excuse me, people, in the most luxurious words known to them, would have been described differently today if it was written to our generation. You know, what is it that we value? Pillows or… I don't know. We just don't know. We value pillows. But they're gold with lace. Welcome to heaven. Stop by in the streets of gold. Second door on your right is McKissadecki. Hands up the pillows. If you tithe to him. You're 10% on that pillow. Right now. And you know what? This is heaven, so you can carry 1,000. You're super strong. But yeah, what would be the most awesome experience, you know, ever? I mean, what is it that, you know, like, well, the Islamic people, their big thing is, oh, you have 72 virgins.

I'm thinking, really? That's it? You get, I mean, that's, you know… I mean, just, you get 72. Yeah, it's like, well, that runs out of, after a while, you know, it's like, I already did that, so, now what? You know, you got eternity now. You know, I mean, that's probably where we have our… I think the perception of heaven is the misguided part. I tell you what, let's do that. Let's set up, we'll do a heaven show. Let's do a show on heaven. Live from heaven. We'll see what the… So, God, what do you think? Oh, yeah, I like it here. Can we get a webcam up there? Yeah, I've got to set this thing up, so, you know, I've got room to grow, and, you know, when I get a little full, I'll just destroy this planet here, and we'll take that one over. I think it's like a baby, though. I mean, if you could communicate to a baby in the womb and say, no, really, it's better

out there. And the baby's going, it's warm, and it's nice, and it's gushy. I mean, and all of a sudden, you know, they're pushed into this place. But then you're here for a while, you're going, hey, this is kind of cool. Now we're all in love with it. You know, we're like, I don't want to leave this place. I think it's one of those things where there's, you know, there's certain parts of your faith you're just not ever going to grasp. You know, like, God's eternally before, eternally after, always. You know? Yeah. It's one of those things that just by faith, you're going to have to go, I can't wrap my mind around it. I get it. I do the same thing with the crucifixion. Like, I have to do that because I know that I don't look at it correctly. Like, I do my best. Sometimes I'll try to force myself into feeling, you know, like the gratitude that I know I should. But I can't quite get there, and I know that, you know? And so, you know, like, all I can do is get down on my knees and say, I know I'm not

feeling the full weight of the sacrifice you made for me, just know that I believe it's there. And I think heaven is one of those things where, right now, if you ask me point blank, do I want to hang out with my wife and kids or do I want Jesus to come back tomorrow, my honest answer would be, I love my wife and kids. I really want to meet Jesus. You know? But all I know is my wife and kids at this moment and not what's in heaven, and I have to believe that God says it's better. I have to believe that, and I know that for a fact, but I can't tangibly grab it yet. You know, and I, you know, obviously, you know, the interpretations of the Bible are here and there, but, like, I don't know, like, that seems like it's all I have. You know what I'm saying? It's honest. How do you describe cotton candy for someone who's never eaten it? You know? Mike, give it a shot. It's like the leave-ins in between your toes after you buy a new pair of socks. But better. I hate cotton candy. Okay, Dan.

It tastes like spiderweb balls. I can't, I just can't stand it. There, that's how you do it. Like, you're going to take a spiderweb and whoop it into a ball and give it to somebody. It's, it's, it's, uh, it's like a celebration in your mouth. I don't know. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's like eating a cloud of candy. It's a cloud. It's a, it's the most beautiful, wonderful experience. It melts in your mouth. Yeah, I'm not very, I didn't do the marketing, uh, class, so. Apparently not. Yeah, I failed. I'd say, I don't look at me, our, uh, our, the logo for the life from the path show is the dude from the restroom. Obviously not a marketing genius either. But who hasn't looked for one of those? He's the most popular man in the world. Everywhere I go, I say, hey man, we're making our wave around town. And there's my friend, Mr. Private. Private.

That's, hey look, live from the past Carson Street. I call that, uh, that's the classic joke is the, the, the, the, uh, the door at, uh, at a sandwich with, with the word private. I'm like, in, in my, in works Mr. Private. Nice. It's gonna, I'm gonna be the guy that perpetuates that. Like the uncle that tells the same joke all the time, that's the one I'm gonna tell right there. Hell. Okay, so we need to do a heaven show, obviously. Yeah. We should get an expert in here. Who's an heaven expert? Probably had a guy who came to Pathway once that wrote a book on it. But even then, I'm, don't, see, that's, that's it. What's an expert? Unless you've been there. Yeah, it's true. You know, the guy, the guy wrote a book on it. He's a college professor. Everybody, blah, he's really smart.

And the whole time I go, nah, I don't think so. You know, well, what do I know? I've just read the same text he read. Actually, that's a good point. It's like, hey man, I wrote a book. Well, did you write a book of the Bible? Exactly. Well then, was Jesus in the background saying, okay, yeah. Is there a book of Jason? Well. Oh man, yeah, that's rough. So, let's look this thing around here. Speaking of heaven. Let's talk about the Osama bin Laden thing. So they got him. They got him. And I see, now my only reference point is Facebook here. Yeah. But it seems to be a 50-50 split Facebook reaction on people's opinion of how a Christian should view this. So the man, obviously, if you're not familiar with Osama bin Laden, there's something wrong with you. But he orchestrated the 9-11 attacks.

He killed thousands of people. And he's a terrorist. I mean, he's a wanted terrorist. He's been on, we've been trying to kill him for years. And so we succeeded. He's out. You know? And so, you know, I'm friends with both, you know, secular and Christians or whatever on the Facebook. And, like, the most rousing debates are coming up from my Christ-following friends where someone will say, I'm glad he's gone. He was a terrorist. He killed a bunch of people. Rejoice in this day. And then someone else will come on and kind of play the, you know, we should be sad because he's gone to hell. And it's one more life that won't be with God in heaven and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know. It seems like a real, like a bloodbath. Like it's becoming very divisive. Yeah, I've seen people celebrating, you know, the whole rot in hell thing. Like, yeah, he's there for eternity, you know. And I think, on my end, you know, part of me celebrates the fact we got him. I mean, there's biblical precedents for that.

You know, when they chopped Goliath's head off, you know, you hold him up. It's part of the celebration. It's like, yeah, we won. The enemy has been defeated. But then I had a hard time personally going, I mean, although I was celebrating it as an American, I wish he would have found Christ and then got killed. Right. You know, then got his earthly judgment. But I can't celebrate anyone burning in hell, no matter what they've done. You know, I mean, nor do I celebrate the people on 9-11 who went to hell. That's like sacrilegious. You can't say that. That anybody outside of Christ who died on 9-11 did not go to heaven, even though they died an awful, horrible death at the hand of a terrorist. Right. I don't celebrate anybody who goes to hell. Right. And, yeah, I just, I mean, it's. Well, it seems like, and I think I saw somebody make a decent point. Like, it's hard not to let your nationalism get in the way of your faith. Yeah. Like, I mean, he was a terrorist. He was.

He was a terrible person. I mean, you know, awful. I personally hope they wrapped his body in bacon. And then threw him in the ocean. And then threw him in the ocean. Yeah. Because that's awful for a Muslim. Yeah. That would be pretty bad, actually. So, like, I think the discerning part is that, you know, justice needed to be served. I mean, he did, frankly, the world's a safer place, metaphorically, for him not have been here. You know, just his presence, you know, caused trouble and killed people. People died just because he was around, you know, and it would make a 20-second, you know, clip of him just babbling on back and forth. And it did. It emboldened people to do more of his type of way of thinking. You know, but, I mean, on the other hand, he did, you know, it boils down to, see, as soon as you say that I would like to have seen him repent from his sins and get to know Jesus, people will go, how could you sympathize with such a mass murderer? Right. I still want him to see justice. Right.

And I think that is the difference. The difference is between wanting vengeance or wanting justice. God is a God of justice. Well, and he says vengeance is mine. Well, it's his. He shall repay through his justice. You know, like through his justice. Through the Army seal, Navy seal with the. . . Because ultimately, like, we. . . There's a bit of a high horse thing here, right? Because ultimately, Osama bin Laden deserves death and eternal damnation. But so do we. Yeah, exactly. The only reason that we're not getting it is because of our faith in Jesus Christ. The only reason he is, assumedly, is that he does not have faith in Jesus Christ. So, I mean, it's the same thing that you were saying with the Cain and Abel, right? Like. . . . You know, identify with Abel because he was the guy that did anything wrong. You look at Cain and you say, Cain's a jerk. But you're Cain in the story. You're the guy that was doing the bad stuff.

Yeah. And so, you know, that's the thing is if you come from a position as if, you know, look at that guy. That guy deserves hell. Well, you know, buy a mirror, buddy. Yeah, yeah. You know, he may have played his hand pretty fierce here and frankly made it difficult for him to come to Jesus with his belief structure and what he surrounded himself with. But, you know, as far as the ultimate punishment, you're in the same boat, only you were saved by grace and he likely was not. Right, like he's, you know, I suppose you could either take comfort or solace or either way, you know, in the fact that he's received his reward. You know, like, you know, he may have thought that he had it. . . I don't know. He may have thought that he had it just great here on life with the agenda he was pushing and the greatness that he's done. And that's the best it's going to get for him. You know, if he did not know Christ before he died, he's done. You know, it's bad. It's a very, very bad thing. Exactly. You know, and the hard part is not taking the stance and saying, good. You know, he did deserve that. But the truth is, is like, if you can't see his sin and your sin on the same level, then you're not looking at it from God's perspective. And that's hard to do, especially with a guy that killed a family member of yours. Oh, yeah.

You know, killed a, you know, and I don't ever presume to know how hard of a difficult decision that is. You know, I'm not in that position. I don't know how it feels to do that. I'm sure it's extremely difficult. But you do have to work your way past that justice was served true. But, you know, a guy did go to hell. And you don't have to, you know, I don't know. You just don't have to celebrate it as if it was a victory for God. Yeah. Because God doesn't look at it that way. Mm-hmm. Eternity is a long time. Yes. I mean. Yeah. You know, my status, I put, I tried to put up something generic as far as his eternity because I'm not God. I can't, I am, if there's anything I cannot do is declare someone in heaven or hell, you know, because I'm not qualified. So, so mine was, I thought, well, I'll just point people to Jesus through, or when he saw Jesus, just before he bowed on one knee and called him Lord.

My thought process was, well, everybody meets Jesus for judgment. They come face to face with him, realize he is Lord, they bow, you know, kind of the whole, every knee shall bow thing. And it was interesting, some of the responses I got, I think people were trying, were thinking, I was saying, like, he went to heaven or something. And it's like, well, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying he met the judge. Right. You know. So either way, you know, especially if he had not repented, you know, with his current ideology of a different God that he's been proposed to be worshiping, you know, what that was like, to come face to face with the true God and go, terror. Oh, man. He thought he was a terrorist. Oh, man. That would be terror. Oh, man. You might as well just, you know. I'm about to be held accountable for everything. Right. For everything that I justified through a false God.

You know, that's scary. That's very scary. What one person responded is, my hope and prayer is he's burning in hell forever. I have no love or desire for him to see Jesus. He was the devil in flesh. I will never forget September 11th. I hope we as Americans unite like we did on September 12th, 2001. I'm like, ooh. I mean, you know. Well, that's the thing is it's not a popular, it's not a popular position. Yeah. Anytime. I mean, and this really might push come to shove, you know, show you where we're at, you know, because nationalism trumps God. Yeah. You know, like when the push comes to shove, like, I mean, when September 11th happened, God got put back in a lot of places that he got shoved out of. But it was only for the show. You know, it was only to promote nationalism. You know what I'm saying? Like, it was only to say, this American needs to get back to God where we started.

Or, you know, everyone would say, you know, our prayers are with you or God be with you. You know, it was only to promote the nationalism that we were trying to feel. And there's nothing wrong with having pride in your country. Right, right. You know, there's nothing wrong with being, you know, very proud to be a U.S. citizen and the freedoms that we have. And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. But you still have to look at it from a place where, you know, who's on your throne? Is America on the throne or is God on the throne? You know, and sometimes it gets mixed up because they say America is a Christian nation. Are you a Christian nation? Are you, personally, is God on your throne? Is America on your throne? And that's hard sometimes because, you know, you don't ever want to say that, you know, America's gone too far here. You know, we're over-gloating our own successes here, you know. Well, you just have to take a step back and look eternal. You know, America's been around 200 years. Now, I'm an American. I celebrate. I was the first guy who celebrated when we shot the first shot after 9-11.

I was like, if I was a younger man, I'd go myself. Get him. Get him now. I celebrate we got bin Laden. I don't celebrate anybody's eternal damnation. Assuming, like I said, I can't judge and say, I would be surprised to see him in heaven. Right. You know, because he's a Muslim, not because he killed people. Right. Right. Because he's neglected Jesus Christ. I mean, the killing people compounds, but, you know. Right. But he knew, yeah. Even if he hadn't killed people, being a non-believer in Jesus makes you not go to heaven. That's the issue. Yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. Negating the sacrifice that Christ made, that's the eternal problem. That's the problem. Exactly. The sin isn't so much the barrier as the not believing that Christ died for it.

Because, once again, he'd be in the exact same boat that we are. Yeah. You know, and our sin is the same. I'd be lost. All have fallen short, you know. But, once again, it's just a painful perspective and it's hard to work through, but you have to, I don't know, like, at some point, it doesn't have to be the first thing to your mind. You know, you might have to work your way there, but you do need to try to work your way there to know that God sits on the throne, and that's the deal. It makes it tough. Like, I go either way. You know, I'll read some of those posts on Facebook. I'm like, yeah, you know what? Screw him. Screw him. Yeah. That's our flesh side, though. Of course, I mean, we have been injured, you know, and, of course, we can't help but, like, well, kick him back, you know. And, like I say, he deserved everything he got physically. Well, and spiritually.

I just hope one of our missionaries somehow stuck into that Muslim world and introduced him to Jesus. Yeah. But if not, it's on him, you know. Well, right, and you can have a heart to see salvation for people, but, you know, when they deny Christ, there's no help in them. You know what I'm saying? Like, I mean, as soon as you say, I don't need you, Jesus, then I don't want to tell you. You're in some trouble. You know, like, there's nothing else you can do. Yeah. You know, I don't know. That's a very tough subject. Like, it was kind of funny because I thought about that. You know, I was kind of worried, you know, when I heard on the news the other day, I'm like, you know, I'm glad. You know, he's just an irritation, you know, on society. You know, I mean, he's dangerous. And then they started showing celebrations in the streets and parades, and I'm like, you know, I get it, but boy, this is not going to play out very well. Well, I thought it was kind of interesting.

These were like on college campuses of people who were… Eight? Eight? Yeah. I'm going, jewelry, I mean, they probably remember their parents being upset about something, but… Right. Was it just a reason to go out and celebrate, or maybe… That's true. The college campus is like, hey man, the first blade of grass came in. Let's go! Of course, it is their generation who's out at war right now. So, you know, look at that too. Man, aren't you… I mean, I'm proud of the military. That's just pretty cool. You look at some of the stuff that they've said that happened to make this… Oh, yeah. To get Osama. Yep. Man, there's some brave people out there fighting for us on our behalf.

Well, that's what I thought the coolest part of the story is. I'm like, you know, they said Osama bin Laden's dead. I'm like, you know, okay. And then they kind of started telling about how the military pulled it off. I'm like, man, those guys are cool. Oh, yeah. I mean, man. And then I'm like, they're way cooler than me in every aspect. I know as soon as I wanted to pull off some kind of covert operation, I'd step on the wrong twig. Or I'd give the wrong coordinates. Or, you know, I'd screw it up in some fashion. And these guys have been diligently at it for 10 years. You know, I get bored after two days of doing the same thing. These guys are like, we're finding them. You know, like, I mean, that's resolve that you just don't find in people. And so that's the thing is the military is the hero in this story. And the ladies and the dudes that are out there, you know, throwing it down on the line for America every day. I mean, those are the people that it's like, yes. You know, these are the people that need to be on the TV, not the picture of the

dead crazy man. You ever, you ever tried to, you ever imagined yourself in a covert operation and tried to walk around as such? Like going up a stairwell, kind of looking up like you would if you had a weapon and were trying to sneak somebody out. And I realized that you're really loud. Oh, yeah. And I realized, yeah, I'm 80 pounds overweight and really slow and big target. When I slowly walk up the stairs, I get even more winded. Is that my knee cracking? Oh, man. I should have ran and got it all overdone at once. You know, one of the things that I decided I could never be part of those covert operations is when I got to go, I got to go. You know what I'm saying? Like those guys are staking out for 25, 30 hours or whatever. And you got to go. Incredible. I don't think of the catheter. I would have to do it. Otherwise, I'd be completely ineffective.

Well, it's a desert, I suppose. You know, never mind. Hey, you're listening to Life in the Path. It's been an interesting show. It's been a wordy one. Yeah. We spent the first, I don't know, 40 minutes, 45 minutes talking with Steve Brooks. He's of the Boone Bible Ministries. I think you can find them online at Boone Bible Church. I think. Do we really want to search people? It better not be church in the URL, Steve. I better check it out. That's how I found it. I'm not sure we really want to send people there, do we? Yeah, whatever. No, no, it's just Boone Bible. Okay, it's boonebible.com if you want to take a look. Why don't we want to send people there? Are we responsible for it? No, no.

We're not endorsing it whatsoever. No. So anyway, he was on. And it was an interesting, I think we're all going to have to go back and take a listen to it. See what was said. Watch our jaws down. What? Is that true? Did he say that? Me and Dan look at Ben and go, ask him another question. We still try to process what's going on here. And then we've also, we've recently been discussing whether it's okay to celebrate at the death of Osama bin Laden. I think the appropriate answer is it's certainly okay to appreciate justice, but we certainly shouldn't be celebrating anybody's eternal damnation. You are likely to be, or you are in the exact same place as that man, and you are separated from God from sin. The only difference is, is you have the benefit of knowing Christ as your eternal savior. Hopefully that happened before Mr. bin Laden passed away. So that is, that is not something to be celebrated, someone's eternal separation from God, regardless

of what they've done. Yeah. And that's tough. I can't think of a single biblical reference where it's like really cool to go to hell. You know? Yeah. Let's celebrate, you know. Except when Jesus did it. Whooped on it for a while. Come back out. I mean, even, even Jesus, the guys who killed him, he's like, forgive him, you know. Is that, is that biblical? Did that actually happen? Is that Peter? Yeah. Jesus went down to hell. Whoop. Back out. Yeah, I think that's where he went. Yeah. It's kind of a little confused.

There's a few places that I just go, hmm, what's all about, I want to say 1 Peter 3. Am I just making that up, though? Yeah, didn't he explain what he did for the, didn't you just do a sermon on what he did after he died? Oh, you did it after he rose. I do after the resurrection. You skipped the middle part. Yeah, he went to the, 1 Peter 3, well, 19, in which he went, proclaimed to the spirits in prison because they formally did not obey when God's patience awaited in the days of Noah. Well, but he said on the cross, he said to the, to the, the thief that was with him, you will be with me today in paradise. That all can't, can't be hell. That's not who this is talking about. Proclaimed to the spirits in prison because they formally did not obey when God's patience waited in the days of Noah. So, uh, no, but what I'm saying is, is like, how could Jesus be in hell when he was in paradise with the thief? Oh, he's God. He can do whatever he wants. I don't know.

Maybe made a quick trip up, dropped him off, came back down. There's some, I've heard multiple people with great authority tell what they think happened during those, and I'm like, yeah, I can agree with all of them. Yeah, you're right. Yeah, I'm just not smart. Well, once again, I think it's just one of those faith things. Look, I give two rips what he did. Yeah, I just, I'm going to heaven. That's really all that stuff. It sounds like he's got a bigger agenda than I got. I'm trying to think, you know, should I stop at the gas station on the way home, or is the wife going to look at my receipt and see that I stopped at the gas station on the way home? These are my problems. You know, the Lord's like, I'm trying to save people from damnation here, Mike. Just stay out of my business. I'll tell you what I do later. Okay. Okay. Sounds good. That goes, I'm just not a detailed person, like in any, in any way, shape, or form, in any

area of my life. And that's horrible because that means like sometimes the Bible stuff, the details, I just don't, I don't care. I don't care. I already did. I mean, I know the story. I know the story. We get to go to heaven. We need a theologian that we keep on staff, that we just pull them in. So like when we get into discussions like this and we have to go, Ben does a pretty good job. You know, but I mean, he's a theologian. No, but you're pretty good at prodding questions around to try to get them to run their own selves into the ground. See, but like if we really needed a verse, we need a guy, like in the hallway. Yeah. Yeah. We need to, here's what we need. We'll call him Theo, the theologian. We need a guy in the corner with a light and a Bible and he just hangs out over there. And like, we'll just have a camera on him and whenever we need him, we'll click over

to him. We'll say, what you got for us, Lenny? And he'll flip around and he'll go, well, uh, Paul says and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And we're like, thanks, Lenny. He goes, tip top. That's how he signs off every time. He'll be like, well, the current modern commentary on such a situation is blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Now it's believed in the old Hebrew, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And if you look at the translation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And if he says something that we find to be biblically inconsistent, we'll pie him in the face. Yeah. We'll have just like a pie on a mechanical arm that comes from one of those mechanical dudes from the Adventureland and just like, whew, and pies him in the face. Yeah. And then he'll go, we'll say, Lenny, what happened here? And he'll go, I'm reading from the way. Tip top. That's right. Pants.

Pants, you're out. I'm sorry. You're really going to have to work on it. And you're going to bring your own chair and your own Bible. So I did get in trouble last week when I came, well, the next morning after I got home, my wife was listening. Well, yeah, we can store one of those animatronics dudes. Oh, no. Does that work? No, not that. Oh. It didn't work out. I sent a text out the next day to find out that someone had already taken them, you know, and Dan goes, well, no. Well, the wife might be happy. And I'm like, wait a minute. You don't think the wives have already gone out there? I think they did it. And threw them away? We saw a large fire. Yeah, and I thought, well, now I'm going to have to look into this.

So I interrogated the wife a bit. She said she doesn't know anything about her. She claims not to be guilty. Well. So they're completely out. There's no more animatronic dudes left? It's not looking good. Just one of them? Yeah. We need one. No. He'll fit in the corner. No, they're huge. Here's the thing. Like, we go out on tangents like this, and they always turn out to be mistakes. No. No. What are we going to do with that guy? We built this studio, didn't we? This was a tangent. Actually, we found this table in the garbage.

We found that. We got that thing out of the garbage, the window that's in here. We found that window in the garbage? Yeah. Actually, we should probably just go get it done. These always work out in our favor. What was I thinking? Dan's shirt came from a gypsy. Exactly. Who wove it out of magic beads. Hey, do you guys remember? Oh, man. I need a better archive of the shows. But we, now that we've talked about gypsies, remember we had like a long, a 45-minute discussion about gypsies and the languages they know and how they get around? I don't remember that. I'm going to have to dig it up. It's been a while. Well, it hadn't been over a year ago. Did you have Engeldinger with us that time? Where is Engeldinger, by the way?

Yeah, just at me. Going hard from him? Engeldinger. I don't know what he's doing. I'll call him. Anyway. Anyhow. Anywho. So, you've been listening to Live from the Path. You can catch us during the week at livefromthepath.org. There you can catch archive shows. You can sign up for the podcast. I would highly recommend doing so. It's a fantastic podcast. You can get to see archive performances, the bands that we've had on. Recently, we've had on Saved on Sunday, On This Rock has been in here. Also, the clips from Jesse Anderson and Center of Fire, both of which are the rock in the nation, those two folks. Also, Eyes Wide Open has been in here. And I'm just trying to think of the folks that we've had at this part of the year. Anyway.

You can catch archive performances of them on the website. And also, make sure to friend those folks on Facebook. We'd really like to see you get out there and be part of the live music scene for people that are trying to spread the Word of God. It's a tough scene to get into. It's pretty easy to play bars and get people to come and listen to your music because they're drunk enough not to care what you're doing or the words that you're saying. It's a whole different deal to try to build a fan base and get people to really appreciate what you're doing when you're trying to preach the Word of God while doing it. So, Candid for Nichols has been here recently. In fact, they're coming up at Jam and Java, I think, this week, maybe, at Smokey Row. Also, be checking out. They're finalizing the schedule of the Spirit Midwest Music Festival. And that's coming up in August. And I'd encourage you to go check out the lineup. Now's the time to clear your weekend and make sure you're heading out there for that. And these aren't people just from the central Iowa area. I mean, there's a couple of national acts coming through. There's Midwest-specific acts coming through. There's a lot of talent at this deal. And so, it's going to be a pretty sharp operation.

Yeah. Yeah, I'm pretty excited for it. I think they're having a stage where they're going to bring in some speakers. I heard a tale of perhaps Kirk Cameron coming in. We're trying to get a slot before or after Kirk Cameron. Oh, no kidding. Can we get him on the show? That will be our plan to see. Can we do Deuteronomy or Dan with Kirk Cameron? Absolutely. What if he totally whoops on us? He's an in-times type of dude. We should have had him in here. He's a what? He's an in-times fellow. He's a rapture guy? He was in the in-times movies. Totally disagree with all of it. What in-times movie was it? Bring him in. Left Behind.

Left Behind. He was in the Left Behind series. I haven't seen any of the movies. I thought they were just books. No, they've done movies. Kirk Cameron was in. Pretty cheesy. Thank you. Wait, what's the Growing Pains theme song? That's the Facts of Life. That's the Facts of Life. Dan, that's a woman's show, man. Did you watch the Facts of Life? Facts of Life is for women. I have a family full of women. Listen, not when the Facts of Life was on. None of your kids were even born. You go do something manly. All I got to do is see you on the couch with some Jiffy Pop. You tell them, Tootie. That was in love of Joe.

Don't listen to her. She's always a man. Oh, man. Yeah, anyway. Yeah, certainly. Okay. All right. We're going to put some stuff together. We'll have some of those bands coming up. I'll tell you what we're doing next week, but I really haven't thought of it yet. It's going to be a blockbuster. Of course, we didn't have any planned for this week. Look at what carried out. The best one yet? Terrorist, end of the world. It's quite the deal. Boy, it's been heavy. See, it's when we have shows like this that I feel like our credibility goes up just a hair because we didn't just talk about Wyndon, you know? Spickle Dinger isn't here with some kind of outrageous hat, and we didn't talk about Tootin' in the elevator.

We're actually trying to hit some religious topics every once in a while. I don't know. It's crazy town. We can't expect to keep that up. No, no, no. No, it's just short term. We'll never go legitimate. What is next week? Someone was describing our show, and it was comparing it to another show, and he said, well, you know, you're kind of like this guy. He has some really funny stuff on there with a biblical punch to it, and he goes, you guys kind of do just funny for funny's sake, and that's okay. Oh, no. We're empty. We're an empty message. That hurts. Dang. That's the thing is we don't have a middle. That's our problem. We don't have like a middle. We're either completely off topic or like dead on.

Yeah, seriously. Well, we've only got two shows left. No, that's true. Oh, man. Hey, what day does the 21st fall on? It's a Wednesday. Oh, man. It's a small group. It's a small group. Come on. I was going to invite someone in my community group. Apparently, there's no redemption for them. Go on sitting then, I guess. All right, may. May it never be. Shall we keep on sitting? It's a Saturday. What? Today's the second. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It is a Saturday. It's not a Wednesday. My bad. Sorry about that. Bummer. I'm not a man with a Sunday. Boy, that'd be embarrassing if you screwed up the end times day. Oh, I thought it was a day. What is it? Oh, man. I gave all my clothes away. I was going to get my hair done. I gave all my clothes away. It's going to be my eternal haircut. I'm ready to go, Lord Jesus. Take me as I am. I'm going out as I came in. Oh, no. Not until a couple days in jail, Jack. Get in the car. Oh, man.

Disaster. Naked dude. Oh, man. Bummer. I would send him back. I'd be like, you know what? Go back. Go back. I can't. I can't take this. All right. All right. Well, you've been listening to Live from the Path. Thank you so much for hanging out with us. Really do appreciate it. If you have any questions or comments about the show, if they're good, please send them to info at livefromthepath.org, and we'll get around to reading them and loving them up. If you have negative comments about the show, feel free to send them to danhudson, sdhudson at thepathonline.org. If you're looking for a church, I hate to put someone towards the church.

If we disagree with the end times man and think that it's okay to be part of the Bride of Christ in the local church and meet together, keep meeting together and not fall away from it, as Paul warned us, please consider coming to Pathway Church in Johnston. We have services at 9 and 10 and 30. You can find more information about us at thepathonline.org. So if you're looking for a church family, we'd love for you to come out. More importantly, if you're looking for a relationship with Jesus Christ, we'd love to see you. Anyway, if you have any suggestions for the show, topics, bands that you would recommend, feel free to send them our way. And thank you so much for listening. You can listen to Live From The Path on livefromthepath.org. Awesome music, by the way.