Live from the Pathway Studios in Johnston proper. You are live from the path. And you're listening to Live From The Path. We're coming from the Pathway Studios here in Johnston Proper. It is good to be with you on this fine what's the day, Mike?

Yeah. It's a fine Monday evening and it's good to be with you. Hey. So we got an exciting show. So here's here's what I'm gonna tell you, is that I've been promising this show for, like, three, four months, I think. Like so if you guys remember, we've been talking about asking the question, how does good news change the world? Right? Like, I believe it changes people's hearts, I think it changes their eternity, but I also believe that there's a tangible change in the world as the light of Jesus flows into it. Good news does indeed change the world. And so we talked to the guy the fellows from Discover Hope five seventeen in Newton. We had a discussion with Matthew Loftus about how can we look at health care differently. How can the good new news of Jesus Christ change how we look at our health and the provision of health care and kind of the animosity that goes with trying to figure that out as a nation versus how we might view people in that circumstance from a good news perspective. And so we got there, and then we've been trying to find someone that could talk to us about

sex trafficking. And I I don't even know why that that came up as kind of one of our top three items, but we thought, I think there it feels like there's so much darkness there. We'd love to know and have visibility to how good news changes that world. And so I'm I'm excited. We have a couple folks that we're gonna talk to today. We're gonna talk to Joy Fatma, who is the the founder of Wings of Refuge, and I'll I'll she will do a better job explaining it than I will. So I will let her do that and have her introduce organization and herself and kinda what that's about. And then also, I mean I mean, ancient ancient friend of the show We've been friends with this man for nine on to fifteen years, Ben. What? Really? No.

No. But, I mean, six years sounds not as cool as you're saying. Okay. Yeah. No. I was gonna feel real bad if it was that long. But anyway, so we've met Nate before. You Nate Baird, we interviewed we did we did some somebody let us do a live remote one time, and we interviewed you on happy birthday, Nate. We was you were raising money for mosquito nets. Yep. Right? And so so we ran into him in in that respect. He's also he's been on the show one of the time for an issue that we could not recall jointly. But but he's he's doing another campaign with Wings of Refuge called Merry Christmas Day, and so we're gonna talk to him about

why he latched on to this, why it's why he thinks it's something important, and then what the goals goals are and and how you can help. So that's gonna be the the kind of the bare run of the show, and then we'll also have advice on Dear Life and the Path. I'm sure something exhilarating. It's it's it's debauchery been invested. Yep. I know. I saw I saw I was coming came across some clips of the show yesterday, and one was where some guy had asked for advice on his cat, who was he was jealous of his cat because his cat was looking at the window at the neighbor who was exercising. Yeah. It was it was terrible. But anyway, that's the type of thing that people want advice from late night internet radio, and that's the type of thing they're asking about. Absolutely. Alright. So we're gonna change. Here we go. The positive. Good news changes the world. This is gonna be much better. So we have, with us via Skype, Joy Fatma with Wings of Refuge. And so, Joy, thank you so much for joining us on Live From The Path.

Thanks for having me. I'm I'm very, very excited, to have you for the for the reasons that we're kinda talking about. Like, there just seems so much darkness in the world when we think about people trafficking humans. And so, I wonder if you could do us a favor and just, kind of introduce us to,

what Wings of Refuge is. Yeah. So Wings of Refuge is a safe home for, female survivors of human trafficking. So

we are solely focused on the restoration, of the women that we serve that from the trauma that they've been through. And so how,

let me ask you this. How do you it's it's from Iowa it's in Iowa Falls. Yes? Well, we can't give away our location. Right on. Located in Hardin County Okay. Iowa. Mhmm. So how do you how do you find yourself doing doing this work somewhere in the middle of Iowa, being a being a place, of refuge for for trafficked girls? Like, what what what brought this about in your life? It's an interesting story. Actually, my oldest son was attending college in Texas and

a team came onto his campus that had made a video documentary called Nefarious Merchant Merchant of Souls, and they showed that on his campus where it showcased that there was 27,000,000 slaves in the world. And really broke his heart to the issue, and now I joke and just say he did what any smart intelligent young man would do. Got that information in front of a pretty ferocious mama bear, and and

said, mom, you've got to learn about sex trafficking. At that point in my life, I thought it was, you know, that problem over there in third world countries, and I felt really bad about it, that what's a small town girl from Iowa supposed to do, but after him, he brought the video home after viewing that, understanding what the problem was, the Lord was just broke my heart to the issue, and also being a survivor of childhood sexual abuse myself, I did have a small understanding of exploitation.

So it hit a little bit close to home and just really knew that the Lord wanted me to do something about it. So literally started a a movement of prayer and asking God, Lord, what do you want us to do about 27,000,000 slaves in the world? Boy,

I I feel like that that situation seems so it seems so daunting to to to come across, to to to have that that burden kinda put upon you, and then to look around and be like, well, now now what? What do I do? What what can I possibly do about that? So what what did that next step look like? Yeah. So that night after viewing the documentary, you know, watching, you know, little girls in Southeast Asia, when you birth a little girl, when you become a parent of a little girl in in a third world country, you're said to have hit the jackpot because you'll never have to work another day the rest of your life.

So it was pretty overwhelming, know, that night I was pretty I honestly, I was angry at God. Like, I'd never been one of those Christians or people saying, know, if God's so good, why does this happen? But that night I I did feel a little bit of that. And so I just began journaling and praying and asking the Lord, you know, what do you want me to do? I knew I could just cry some tears and in a few days all this information would have faded away and I could go back to my normal life or I could engage in what I was learning about. And so we

started the movement of prayer. There's so many lanes to get involved in the movement of anti trafficking, whether it's working on the issues through policy changes through the law, recovery and rescue, restoration, or just awareness

and education. And we knew we had to find the place where we could serve and what our lane was going to be. And literally, it boiled down to a mathematical equation for our team, the 12 people that formed to pray. Back at that point, there was 629

beds specific to the aftercare of survivors of sex trafficking in our nation, and there were hundreds of thousands of people in our country being trafficked every year. We were learning that oftentimes they were America's orphans now grown up.

Oftentimes they'd been trafficked as children. And so where were they gonna go if they were able to get out? If family and, you know, systems had failed, where were they gonna go for help? And so that's where we learned that our call to restoration was gonna be where we were gonna go.

Do you feel like so part of what you described there, I I I feel like I'm embarrassed to say was surprising to me. Like, I I think sometimes when we get a talk about something like sex trafficking, it seems not here. Right? It seems like an elsewhere problem, a problem born out of third world poverty or it just it just seems somewhere else in the world. And so when you were talking about kind of the orphans of our society,

do you I I don't know. May may that surprised me. Maybe I don't have a question in there. I'm just I think my reaction is is that that that surprises me. Maybe I'm embarrassed to say that that surprises me. Do you feel like that is something that we did did you have a a a feel for how much that was feeding this issue in in The United States prior to starting this? No. I didn't have a clue. You know, and the Lord had already given me a heart for orphans. I'd been to Africa. I'd been to different countries on missions trips, and so my heart was deep and wide for orphans and I always thought orphans as little children over in other countries in orphanages,

you know. And, James one twenty seven, you know, it says, true religion is to look after orphans and widows in their distress. And my husband actually, before learning about sex trafficking, had a plan to, you know, raise our own children and then go over and and help orphans in in a different country. But really, when we learned about sex trafficking, what we learned is that we are oftentimes

just ministering to orphans or widows in their distress. Whether, you know, as as crazy as it sounds, leaving their pimp, the one who has trafficked them as awful as it was, that was their provider, you know, and so they have to grieve that loss. And they've had, you know, family has failed, and so they're orphans and widows a lot of times. And so we are, in fact, still doing what that first call was in our lives. It just looks a whole lot different than I expected it to. So what is it, what what is the experience like for,

a girl that that comes into your care? Like, how is it a long term placement? Is there counseling available? Like, what does that what does that look like for them? How do they transition into a life that's different from where they came from? Yeah. So essentially, what we're asking her to do is come and heal with your buyers. We're the people on the outside, everyone not in the life or the life of trafficking is potentially a buyer to her in her mind.

So asking her to come and trust complete strangers is a pretty huge, the first huge miracle that happens in her life. After that, everything we do is individualized, you know, people are all different. A lot of times, the experiences are similar with the women that we've served. So the first thing we're doing is taking care of her medical needs. If you can imagine being raped for profit 10 to 20 times per day,

a lot of times your body is pretty wrecked out and so we're just meeting her immediate needs in the beginning. Oftentimes, her documentation has been taken from her. Oftentimes, she comes with only the clothes on her back. So we're just basically just giving her the things that she needs in the first thirty days or so. Everything after that is totally individualized based on her goals, based on her gifts, and based on the way God designed her heart and,

her personality interests. And so we take a holistic approach, you know, we deal with the educational pieces, the life skills and the training and, but the biggest thing we really want her to come out of our home knowing is that there is a life of hope of possibilities, and there is, and that exists through the person of Jesus because all humans are limited.

And so that's our hope that when she leaves our home, that she knows there is a different way. What's what's one thing that you feel like you personally have learned since starting Wings of Refuge? Maybe something that you didn't know or that you know or feel differently from having kinda jumped in to the to the burden that was given to you? Oh, man. I've learned a lot of things. You know, the girls have been my best teachers.

I've learned so much about their bravery and their courage. But the biggest thing I think I've learned from them and work in those living life with them is how to be unchurched to really live like Jesus to, you know, the way that we share the gospel is is very different, know. It's it's doing life on a daily basis when

there is no, you know, I sometimes say, you know, we're not a rehab, we're a hab. A lot of times there wasn't anything that was before, you know. If day one sexual abuse and violence started out for you and anyone who wants can have sex with you, there's no frame of reference where safety was ever

in existence in their life. And so, you know, like we can't say, oh, you need to live a pure life, you know, like that's just gonna put shame on them. We have to even first teach them what what does that even mean? What does that even look like? Because to them, sex is just a an everyday transaction.

You know, there is no intimacy. There is no relationships. I'm just literally a commodity. And so even just to get them back to their own skin and body parts. And so really just learning how

to show Jesus and to present the gospel in in tangible ways in that circumstance and really listening to Holy Spirit, I think is what I've really had to learn how to do through this process. That's that's interesting. I I think we've I think we've seen that pretty consistently talking with different folks that are interacting with people,

that are on the on the peripherals of society for whatever reason, is that, a lot of the framework, a lot of the work that the that the church does for its own kind of edification falls on they're not deaf ears, but they're ears that just they can't even take it in. They don't have the they don't have a frame of reference for it. They don't it the the the the that we use don't mean the same thing as as they take it in. And so it really comes through the the hands and feet of what the the people of Jesus are doing to demonstrate and kinda help with defining what those are. That does seem to be a pretty consistent,

pretty consistent theme, from from the church and and the interacting with with with folks in kind of those situations. And and maybe that points me to well, actually, let me I'm gonna ask you too. I I told you I was gonna ask you this as the last question, but I I I have a follow-up. But, like, based upon kinda what you were talking about and and maybe the the theme of what we're trying to answer, if someone were to ask you, how does how does the good news of Jesus Christ change the world

when it comes to to sex trafficking? How would you answer that question? You know, our tagline is, so the exploitation ends for one more girl, and 27,000,000 slaves in the world is a huge desensitizing number.

And so the gospel changes one life at a time. So we don't take on the 27,000,000, we take on the one in front of us. And her life is worth just like Jesus when he went to the cross, you know, like, it was worth everything. We were worth everything to him. And we take that same mentality with her, like, you're worth everything to me.

And that's hard because no one's ever treated you like that before, and it's hard to trust, you know, because I'm a human, I'm gonna fail you, but there is a hope and it's Jesus. Just reminds me of a story of one of the girls, she came to us and

literally, like, her trafficker was in going to kill her, and she was able to escape. So she came to us, you know, her hair had been shaved off, her fingernails had been pulled out, she had burn marks all over her, she was pretty wrecked out. And there's no education,

there's no conference, there's no guidebook for how do you deal with that situation. Right. And so, I was spending some time with her, know, she couldn't eat, couldn't sleep. I mean, was just numb and robotic. And just thinking,

you know, how am I even gonna connect with this woman? And and because of security reasons, we were gonna have to, again, move her to a different home, and I had to tell her that that night. And so I just, I talked to her and I'm like, you know what? I don't know what it's like to be you. I have no idea. I don't understand. I don't know what it's like to have been through what you've been through. But that place of mutual brokenness in my own life got used.

I just said, you know, I do know what it's like to be small and trapped and helpless, and I do know what it's like to live after that and have hope. And she looked up at me and one thing is the streets tell you always don't cry, the girls that cry die. And tears just started rolling down her cheeks. And she looked up and she's like, I thought your life was perfect. And I was like, oh no. You know, and that place of mutual brokenness where we get very vulnerable and transparent with one another,

is a place where healing can happen. And, she went on, I continued to stay in her life even after she left her home. She continued on and came to know Jesus. And so I think it's just loving the one in front of you and

sharing Christ, like, you know, I I love Philippians three ten. It says, I want to know Christ and I want to know the power of his resurrection. To share in the fellowship of his suffering, becoming like him in his death and so somehow resurrection from the dead. And I think that place, you know, of knowing Christ through suffering, where that mutual brokenness happens

and the cross and trauma, you know, collide with the resurrection, and then that and so somehow resurrection, you know, there's only one way to know Jesus Christ as savior and that's through confession of sin and you know, believing the work that he did on the cross. But that and so somehow resurrection can happen a million different ways And we watch that every day at Wings of Refuge through the huge revelations of a girl finding her tears and the small things of, you know, decide, deciding to stay and sleep with us one more night when,

you know, she's she's not sure if this is what she wants. And so we we celebrate a lot with the one in front of us for every milestone in that and so somehow resurrection process. Absolutely. That's that is that is how good news changed the world, and for everybody, and to watch it be able to permeate where there's there's there's darkness that that we don't even understand is is is a beautiful thing, because we serve

a beautiful savior. So let me ask you this. If if people are are interested in helping, what are some ways that they can help? Number one, we always ask for prayer and intercession. You know, prayer is what fueled the and birthed Wings of Refuge, and, you know, we're

literally the Lord is plucking women off a hell's doorstep, and, you know, we need people praying about what we're doing. And the second would be to give. Restoration is expensive. It's messy. You know, it it takes nine staff

to allow our home to run three hundred and sixty five days a year, twenty four hours a day, so we need people to give. There's a cost. When we decide to make women a commodity and reduce them down to skin and body parts, when we decide to make porn a natural part of our culture,

there is a dollar amount to there's there's a cost. There's financial cost to that, and especially on the lives that we're deciding that it's okay to use. So I would say give, give to Wings of Refuge and give to what our awesome friend Nate is doing with us. It's pretty exciting.

Absolutely. So and we'll get that to the Nate portion. Then Nate will say, here's how this is done. I can see it. He's ready for it. Okay. Alright. Awesome. Joey, thank you so much for for sharing some time with us. I I really appreciate it. I was I'm I'm encouraged and burdened both,

and I think that's probably the right place to be in these types of situation. And so, I appreciate you sharing with us. You can learn more if you go to wingsofrefuge.net. You can also find them, on Facebook. You just do a search for Wings of Refuge. And, if you go to, if you like Life From The Path, we like them. So, if you wanna look at what we like, you can find them that way as well. And please please do do do pray for them,

and then then it's something that you can make consistent for them as well. But our to take that good intention a step further and give. And Nate will share some ways that that you can do that in in support of Wings of Refuge through the stuff that he's working on. So please, I would encourage you to do both of those things. Again, Joy, thank you very much. We'll go ahead and let you go, and you I hope you enjoy your rest of your night, but thank you for joining us on Life From The Path. Alright. Thanks. Alright. Thank you. Alright. That was Joy Fatma with Wings of Refuge. Thank you so much, guys, for for hanging out with that conversation with us. It was one that I was interested in having. Mike, what are your thoughts?

I don't know. I and I've had this every time we've talked to somebody about how the good news changes the world. It's like, I I sit here and I listen to the way that that God has burdened people with things and how they've accepted this burden. Right. And like, and they're just messy. Just messy things that like, I don't know, you can read books to do this. Right? Like almost everything we want nowadays is a YouTube video or or a book to read and be like, then I can do it. And like, how do you deal with

sex trafficking? And then Joyce says, yeah. Yeah. I'm in. You do it. And I just say, thank you Lord that you have people. Right? That you have people that that that feel this this burden you've laid on them and then go, yes. Yes. Where I would I I mean, I I just listen to these stories and I'm like, I can't barely get hide back my crying when they're telling these stories. You know what I'm saying? I'm like, I I could not function in this way. I'm I you know, I don't know how you you don't walk down brokenhearted going in fear of the 26 point blah blah $9.09 9,000,000. You did get the one. And like, Joyce got it nailed, you know? Like, this is what we do. This is what the gospel does and and and like, man, I I don't know. There is so It's it's hard coming from a male perspective and I'm and and and I'm really interested actually to ask Nate about this too. It's like, it's it's hard from a male perspective because we're kind of the problem. You know what saying? Like, we're the problem here. And so, like, it's it's it's hard to listen to these stories and go like, I mean, the team that I'm de facto on because I was just born this way, I'm like, crap. Like, I'm representing a bit of the enemy here. And so, I don't know, it was it was it was it was really interesting to listen to what she had to say.

And I don't know. I'm I'm interested to see what we can do to help. Yeah. So let's let's let's talk about that. Reintroduction of our we're we're gonna go with longtime friend Yeah. That's good. And conf Dear friend. And dear friend and confidant. That might be far. Comrade Nate. So Nate Nate Baird and like I said, the last time we ran into him, he was

he was using his birthday to try to to try to raise money for for some mosquito nets to to combat the lurking nighttime malaria problems that a simple net can solve. Yeah. And so I love a man that that hijacks Christmas That's right. For the for good reasons that serve Jesus. So you're you're doing Merry Christmas, Nate. So tell me a a a little bit about what you're doing and how you got hooked up with Wings Refuge. Well, that kinda goes back a couple years. For my job, I I do digital media at Open Bible Churches and

one of our stories was of Brandi Sliceman who's one of the staff members at Wings of Refuge. And we were doing for our magazine, we were doing an interview with her. So she came down, we filmed her and filmed the interview. And after we turned the cameras off, there had just been a big sex trafficking bust in the news. Yeah. And I said, you've gotta be pretty excited about this, right? I mean, all these bad guys got got and all these

victims got rescued, you know? And she she said she was, but I could tell there was like, there was a little bit more. Yeah. Right. You know? And and so she goes, yes, I am excited about that. But if if they don't have a bed to go to, if they don't have a place to go, then they'll probably get sucked back in Right. Either through coercion or just need Yes. Because that's all they've known. Yeah. And and that hit me like a ton of bricks. And so,

some time passed and I had kind of been looking for something something else to do, kind of like another happy birthday name. Yep. And nothing really was sticking with me. Nothing like the Lord wasn't really, you know, really punching me in the gut about anything. Right. You know? And after she said that, I was like, this is it. This is the thing. So some time passed and I was actually in their town a little bit later for a separate project. It didn't have anything to do with that. Yeah. And we ran into somebody that I knew also knew the Wings of Refuge people and she goes, oh yeah, they're having their

board meeting, they're having their board meeting right now. And I said, are you serious? And I said, is Brandy here? And they said, yeah. I said, I wanna talk to him. So being the impromptu guy in true Nate Beard style Uh-huh. I walked in on the board meeting Right on. And I said, hey, my name's Nate. This is what I did for my thirtieth birthday and for my 30 birthday, I wanna help you guys.

So you need to like tell me what you need. Yeah. And Joy's eyes, I'd never met her before in my life, I only knew Brandy. Yeah. And Joy's eyes were as big as softball. She's like, who is this maniac that just walked in and he's saying he's gonna like launch a campaign for us? Yeah. So that started our conversation. And so we we'd conversate back and forth. We had group messages and we'd kinda talk about what this looks like. And then for whatever reason this year,

you know, since my last birthday, I've had two kids. Right. And so they kinda just suck all the time out of your schedule, you know, in a good way. And just nothing I could not get the campaign off the ground. I just couldn't. It was like one roadblock after another. It was insane. Yeah. And finally, decided, you know what? I'm gonna hijack Christmas. Right on. It's not my birthday. Yeah. Halloween. So And then I got to thinking, you know, Christmas is actually really perfect for this because

it's about a story It's it's about a guy coming to Earth to rescue those in captivity, to restore lives, to make people whole again. And I thought how perfect is that? And so so yeah, I said I said we're gonna do Merry Christmas, Nate, and this is how the campaign's gonna fit together and with sex trafficking and with Christmas and that's kind of the the short of it. But Right on. So so what's the what what's the goal here? Okay. So the goal is they have one location that's in a small Iowa town which is which is really kinda perfect for

sort of getting out of that lifestyle Yep. For a participant to sort of detox and get out of that lifestyle and sort of just have no other nothing else on their plate but just sort of being restored. Yep. But that same small town that is sort of like

their safe place Yeah. It it restricts them after a while when they're when they want to grow more. Sure. When they want to because the whole goal of restoration is to live an independent life. Life. Yeah. So when they start to want to maybe go back to school, when they wanna get a job, when they wanna get a car, any of these things. Yeah. A small town just can't offer that stuff like Uber or Lyft or public transit or community

colleges, that sort of thing. Or a very just tons of job opportunities, waitressing and Sure. Clerks and all that stuff. So a town like Des Moines is perfect because it's not a huge town, but it's it's got a lot of the amenities that

a big town would have. Sure. So the idea is that they would have a second location where when a participant is ready to pursue those things, they would go to this second location that would be in or around the greater Des Moines area. Yep. And and they would have those things like Uber or Lyft or whatever. So they can go get a job, they can go to school, they can they can do the things that they need to do to have an independent life. Yep. And so that's really what I'm trying to do. So $750,000 is the goal. And I know it's a lot, but that's the goal. Mean You alright? It doesn't make any sense for me to try to raise $5,000 when $750,000 Yep. Is

So I said the other night, know, if you need 15 yards for a first down, don't throw a three yard pass. And so here's this is the this is the goal and this is what I'm going for. No. Hey. Actually, I get real frustrated when you need 15 yards and somebody throws a three yard pass and you're like, what were you thinking? Right. That was not helpful. Who who called that dumb play? Not Nate Baird. Nate doesn't do that. Okay. $750, put put a a transitional spot. Right? Like, yeah, it's it's it's just a it's it's a right logical step. Right? Like, if you wanna be able to to provide that for folks, that makes a lot of sense. And it seems like a a pretty prescient need and an unfortunate one, but certainly something that you need. Where where do you know where you're at so far? So right now, have just a little bit over 2,000 Okay. Raised. We got a lot we gotta we gotta move. We got room to move here. Yep. Okay. Right on. Yeah. Alright. Well, let's let's do that. We should I mean,

Mike? I mean, I got something. It's like pocket change. I mean, I yeah. We we gotta hang around here. I think, guys million? Spent 725,000 on the way in. Man, I wish you'd have said something. Oh, man. So let let me ask you this. So what has has anything changed for you, a perspective or an understanding

in the time that you've been working with Wings of Refuge? Yes. And I I would say even more so before I started working with them because I had a little girl. Yeah. And so when you don't have kids, this is it's terrible, it's ungodly,

it's like, why how can these people go through this? You know? But when you have kids, it makes it a lot more real. And, you know, there's not a lot that I can do to make the world a better place for my daughter necessarily where I'm at in my life. Sure. But I want to make sure that there's restoration there. I can't always be with her. I can't always be protecting her, you know, and I trust God with her life, But of if I can be part of helping restore other lives,

that really appeals to me. And the fact that she can see her dad doing that. Yeah. That makes that makes that makes it real too. And so as this past year, as we've sort of been working together with Joy and the rest of the staff, I've learned a lot about sort of the the industry, I guess you could say. Yeah. And every single time isn't Joy great? Every single time I talk to her, she tells a story about something that, you know, to her is just like every day. Right. She's, you know, and to me like one time I was talking with her and she's like, yeah, yesterday we just celebrated a birthday for a girl who hadn't had a birthday party in five years.

I mean, what? Yeah. Right. That's crazy. So so she's always telling me those types of stories and Yeah. And, you know, like like you were saying, Mike, I I get upset when I go to a restaurant and they sell Coke and they don't sell Pepsi. Right. You know, like, it it changes your perspective a little bit on what's really important Yep. And what should make you mad or not and so You know, I what I I guess this is where I'm convicted here and maybe on it's on it's on a broad a broad spectrum here but, like, I find that after having these conversations with people, I'm frustrated with myself and and and maybe some of us who are following Jesus that, like, we're afraid of the dark. You know what I'm saying? Like, we don't wanna go. Like, I I Right on. It's not like this sex traffic thing is new to me. Like, I did had no idea it existed. Of course, I did. Right? But, like, either I don't figure that I I just it's not my place. I I don't wanna get all involved with that. Sounds like real messy. Right? Like, just don't wanna get involved with it. Or frankly, I'm scared of it. I'm scared of it. We're I mean, the type of mess that she's talking about, the type of folks that are looking for the ladies that are now trying to get restoration. Right? Like, we're just

I I think we bow out of the stuff like Jesus is afraid of the dark and he's not. And and we shouldn't be either. And, like, hearing people just dive right into this stuff and say, look, this is what we're gonna do. And, like, I I just I I I love that. I love that. That's hands and feet that, like and it's not the it's not the cheesy hands and feet, like, a gift bag and a funny VBS banner. You know what I'm saying? Like, they're like, we're serving the community. Well, kind of, you know? Like, most of these kids are coming anyway. Like, we're running a homeless shelter here. Like, you just you gave out free candy and lemonade. I'm not saying you shouldn't do that. But I but you know what I'm saying? Like, sometimes we go to bed satisfied and we're mistaken. We should we shouldn't have been, you know? Like, the fact that I can go that I can go to my regular job and like and and not pass a truck stop and go, man, I you know, I gotta at least be praying for this thing. You know what I'm saying? Not like everybody's gonna be in their exodus roading the thing all the time. Right? But maybe some of the time. Maybe mean, something. Yeah. Is 27,000,000 really that big if we got the the church of Jesus Christ on it? We talked about this when we're talking when adoption day comes around. Yeah. Where they're like, listen, you know, you can you can yell and scream all you want about the sins of the world and the situations that have come up. But, like, if if the entire church of Jesus Christ adopted a kid, we'd be done. It'd be over. We wouldn't even be having this. We'd have to get rid of adoption day because it's not necessary.

Because it doesn't matter how many kids you produce, the the church of Jesus seems to pick them up. Right. And we wouldn't be having this conversation. Scouring the streets of Rome picking them out of the gutter. That's right. You just you can't seem to stop these crazy folks from picking up kids. And the same is true with with with with especially girls that have been put in a situation that they don't wanna be in. There is no reason for that to continue. We have people outflanked and out numbered and out and we have and we have money. Don't act like we don't have money. We have money. Right? And so, like, all these things that, like, we're afraid of the dark, we got cash we don't wanna spend, we got time we don't wanna share, and, like, I listen to these stories, I'm like, what's wrong with you? I was mad about that that Pepsi deal at the Bebop's today. I'm like, you don't have Coke at all? No. No. Pepsi only. I'm like, what is this, the fifties? You can't have Coke on Tampa? What sort of Mickey Mouse operation is this? And then and and I go to bed satisfied and that was my biggest gripe. That was the thing that moved me for the day is the poor gal in the in the cheap Visqueen jacket and the bebops could not produce a Coke on my son. I mean, come on. And I think that's actually one of the things that was compelling from a from looking at how does how does good news change the world is, like, it reminds us that,

one, that the world needs change and, two, that the good news doesn't. Right? Like, sometimes it's just it's it's hard. Like, I'm surrounded by things that don't remind me of any of those. Yeah. Right? I work I work a white collar job for the most part. I I go home. I live in a in a safe relatively safe community. There's some mailbox hoodlums. But, I mean, that's mean, you can't shake them. They're taking my advertisements for the oldies. Yeah. But oldies puts them out right by the door. So They're up charges and everything. No worries, Chuck. So you you know what I'm saying? Like and I think our it's it's not here's the deal. Good natured people, faithful people, I know that I know that the gospel changes things and I know that it's powerful. But sometimes, when I'm not exposed to things,

I I I I miss the sense for how powerful it is. Right? Because because I'm not in that situation and I don't see it and I don't take part in it and I don't affect it. And the truth is is, like, when I see the gospel change the world like that, not only are people being, forever cradled in the arms of of the lord Jesus that died for them, but they're right now is better. They have hope where they didn't have it. They have joy where it doesn't even make sense to have it. They have they know love when they had no concept of it before, and Jesus provides those things. And and to miss that, I think that's why I I personally need to be reminded that good news changes the world. I need to see it. I need to see light shine into darkness to recognize how dark things are and make sure that I'm we're not falling for a trap that says, you know, it's about midday. I think it's okay. And so, like, some of this was to bring attention to how can we put how can we put time and effort and money. Like, that was actually the core. Right? Is that we the spawn from we said, if good news changes, well, let's write all the ways down. I expect it to change. And if there are people and say that the people of Jesus should be doing these things. And if the people of Jesus are doing these things, let's celebrate it and fund it and make that people know that it's happening. And if we look out and say, the good news should be changing the world in this way and the people of Jesus aren't doing this at this moment, then now it's on us to do it. Like, this goal was kind of the premise of the thing. And so Hey, man. Thank Jesus. Other people are doing stuff. We haven't had to do nothing far. That's what I'm saying. Support people. Well, and that's kind of the point. Right? As you look out, you can find it. That God's got people on it. He's got people on it. And the and the the question is now,

how how can we be part of that, of the outflanking Yeah. Of the darkness? A, you're not be afraid of it. B, we say, god's got got someone who's in the trenches. They just they need money. You know what we have? Money. Yeah. We have money. You know I mean? Like, we don't even this is this is this is the plot. We talked this a little we couldn't broadcast last week. We had some technical problems, we were kinda talking about, some overseas mission stuff. And, like, there's a level of maturity in a in a I think, in American Christian where they get to the point where they reasonably think I should go somewhere else. I'm not impoverished. I feel like I should sacrifice something. I should go move to show that

as a show God that I'm serious. And here's the thing. There's a lot you know what a lot of those guys need? They need resources. They need money. You know what we have? Money. Put some work, man. They don't need a your job. Don't need a five ten white man in Uganda. You know what I'm saying? They need your money so Ugandans can raise Ugandans. Know what I'm saying? They they're God has equipped them. They're not a forgotten people by the Lord. Right? Like, I mean, he's got he's got people that love and follow him in that country and your white man status over there ain't gonna blow the place up. Right. He didn't bless your stapling hide to go over there. He just says, keep a stapling, put 20% back and send it over and and and put it to work. Right? Get a transitional house going. And so I I guess that's the thing is, like, we run risks by not seeing the world for what it is but not recognizing the gospel for how powerful it is. And, like, this doesn't mean that I didn't believe the gospel was powerful. It's just I like to be I like to be reminded and to stand in awe of what God does with people and through people for the growth of his kingdom and for the restoration of the world. And this and this does this reminds me of that. And it reminds me that God says, like, we're not sitting on our haunches waiting this thing out until he returns. He's like, I want restoration now. I want it now. I think one of the the

greatest quotes that I think I've latched onto and maybe has changed my life was Francis Chan's quote when he says, the church really should stop worrying about failure and they should start worrying about succeeding at things that don't matter. Yeah, right on. And that really changed my whole perspective on stuff.

It'd be really easy to say, well, why didn't you create a monetary goal that was, you know, like $5,000? That's easily attainable in in the two months that you have the campaign going. But that's not the goal. Right. You know? It's not the goal. It's goal. It's it's not what you heard what she said. Restoration is expensive. Sure. They gotta have somebody there for twenty four hours a day, you know, and it just it blows my mind how expensive it is and and how, you know, we just had a a great thanksgiving week. I I I love thanksgiving, love hanging out with my family. This year we told our family that we're expecting again. Yeah. So we we had number three on the way. That was pretty fun. But then, you know, I take all those feelings of like how I'm thankful for everything

and then it just drives me nuts the rest of the weekend when they have Black Friday then they have Cyber This and it's like, oh man, we just were celebrating how thankful we were for the things that we have in our life. And then we went out and just, you know, everybody's gonna shop, I get it. Right. You know, and maybe you need a coat for your child and you wanna get a good deal on it. But you have stuff like this going on in the world and it just changes your perspective. Yeah. You know? I've had to guard my heart, honestly. I've had to guard my heart in watching a lot of that and just say, you know what? It's it's They just maybe haven't seen that perspective yet. Yeah. It's just It's a blindness and, like, it's not I I don't even from from a Christian perspective,

I I don't think it's willful. But I but I there are just there are trappings of a society that is, a, largely cares for itself and b, has things that people that there's just parts of the world or situations that don't have. Yeah. And it creates the blindness that you actually have to fight against. Yeah. Like, you have to put a toothpick in your eyelids and and force it open because we You really wouldn't know the difference, and it's it's not a willful ignorance, it's an ignorance all the same. Right? And so you you I I would agree. You do have to guard your heart and and make sure that you're not you're not just saying, I take in what's presented to me, but it's saying, I'm looking. Yeah. I'm looking for where light needs to go. I'm looking for for how I can direct time and money and resources to things that do good kingdom work that that changes the world. And and I think you do have to be that is it's a it's a mission work. It's not just a, may it rule to me. I think we have to go looking for it. We're on the hunt for that, J S. Well, you know, and and here's what here's what I like about about especially what what she was saying is like,

it it takes some of the stuff that that that I'm afraid of off the table for me. Like, I'm afraid I wouldn't know what to say. I'm afraid that I wouldn't know what to how to handle that situation and then I'm afraid that I would, I don't know, give bad counsel or or get fired up when it's fired up is not what we're talking about here. Right. Right? And and and she says, well, I'll do that. I'll that's what God has gifted me to do. I just need your resources. I just need your help. I'm like, yes, I can do that. Yeah. I can do that. It's that old saying, when you give, you go. Yeah. Can be part of it. Yeah. I mean, look at the investment that you're making. There's a definite return. You know what I'm saying? It's the it's not not it's not a it's not a wasted stop at the gas station that you will you will regret. You know, it's not a bad Black Friday purchase that you're like, I'll buy anything for $3. I mean, you know, they can put Barnyard on sale for $3. I'm like, I'll have to have five copies. I don't know why anybody would pass it up at this price. Right? Wait. Wait. What is the Barnyard? I actually, I don't I don't know. I'm assuming it was the name of a a low rent movie from the eighties. And what's the one with Chevy Chase sitting on some kinda barn car? I it's always in the the budget bin. Funny Farm. Funny Farm. Yeah.

Take it back everything I said about barnyard and insert Funny Farm. Sorry for yeah. Was And move on. That that's not good news changing the world. Funny Farm doesn't change. Anyway, I think I think I I think the thing is, especially with some of the stuff that like, I don't that God has had me around here lately, I just it really has me convinced that God really does give and we call it we call it a burden and like, I call it a load. Know, the God's like, this is great for you and this this is what I need you to do. And and and they say, yes, I'm I'm on it. And all we need is just a little bit of support and and it's it's convicting because we we can we can support it. We just don't. Yeah. I think raising awareness is a big part of that because a lot of people that I've talked to don't a, don't think about it just because it's not on their radar, but b, they think it's somewhere else. Yeah, exactly. And

I was I was looking at the Iowa Department of Transportation website. They said that there's an average of I'm just gonna round up. It's almost 8,000,000 cars on the on Iowa roads every year. So let's just be really conservative and say that only one of the 1% of those cars are traffickers. Yeah. That means that 80,000 cars are driving around Iowa every year with human slaves in them. Does that blow your mind? Yeah. I mean And and the and the fact that the the average age that these kids get pulled into it is 11 to 14. Yo. 11 years old. Yeah. See, I this is why I'm thankful for people that that that do this. Right? Because, like, I can't get past my anger Yeah. And and the the sad you know what I'm saying? Like, I mean, I have girls and I just I can't my girl my daughter's 10. Yep. I'm looking right at her. I'm like, she doesn't even know who she is, let alone, you know, any idea what's about to happen? And like, I I just

Yeah. I I don't know. I don't know. I'll give that So I I asked a couple teacher friends of mine, what is it that kids that age, 11 to 14, are like learning in school that they wouldn't be learning, you know, because they've been pulled into sex trafficking. Yeah. And they're talking about like, well, just simple stuff like friction and boiling points and freezing points of water and they're starting to get into multiplication Right. And pre algebra and stuff like that and those. So let's let's just say they've only been trafficked for for three years, which would be an eternity. Yeah. Right. Yeah. But those are things that they never learned. But most of these most of these participants

have been trafficked for much longer than that. Let's say ten years. Yeah. Ten years. So now they're 21 and they haven't experienced anything that we got to experience in our high school years, teen years, young twenties, you know. I mean, so they're coming out of that lifestyle and they know nothing. Yeah. They don't know how to call for a dentist appointment. They don't know how to

What did we learn in high school? They don't they don't know basic math. They don't know basic history. Yeah. Right. I mean, you're trying to fit seamlessly into a society when you haven't been Those formative years of high school, you haven't been taught that stuff. You need to be You need to like like she said, you need to go through a hab. Yeah. There just There wasn't anything there before. You gotta learn that stuff. Yeah. And and that's why I love what Wings of Refuge is doing. And what I love also is that it's not a thirty or sixty or ninety day program. Right. I mean, they don't just kick you out after the time runs up. They're there for you until exploitation has totally ended for you. Yeah. Amazing. That is amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Alright. So what what do we do here, Nate? How do we where where do we go? Where do we go to just to put resources on this thing? Alright. Well, you can go to merrychristmasnate.com and there you can read the entire story of

sort of how I started this whole thing and why I'm doing it and the and the ask is there too of of the the $750,000. Right on. And so you can give, there's three options I think. One is to donate, the obvious one. The second one is to network share as much as you can, tell anyone you can about it. That's such an important part because you never know who's gonna see it and has a heart for it. Yeah. And you know, wants to give to it. Sure. And then the third is to learn more about Wings of Refuge and to follow them on Facebook and go to their website and kinda learn more about them. Okay. So

on my Facebook, merrychristmasnate.com, merrychristmasnate, I've been posting videos of sort of meet the staff and so you can sort of watch those, kinda get to know who you're giving to. It's a Christ based organization. And so Was it tagged? Is it a is it a charity? It's a charity. Yeah. The the donation actually goes through Open Bible Church is my work. Okay. And so that's only because they're providing a a donation platform.

Yeah. If you feel more comfortable giving directly to Wings of Refuge, that's fine too. Okay. That's their nonprofit. Just tag tag it in the memo that it's Merry Christmas, Nate campaign. Right on. And so it's just multiple ways to give give to us. So Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay. Well, you can go to merrychristmasnate.com. You wanna be following Wings of Refuge and Merry Christmas Nate on the on the Facebook or is that the chosen social media platform? You do? Yeah. You do. Yeah. Right on. Facebook. Yeah. So so here's the here's the thing. It's like, yeah, I think you should be praying on that. I think I'm gonna be we need to be praying on that.

Be I think we need to educate ourselves on those types of things. Right? Like, I think it's we just gotta we gotta force our eyes open if they're not there. We are we need to know where the darkness is so that we know where the light should be. It's is is there a good resource for that? Like, I mean, you know, I mean, I stop rest areas all the time, truck stops, whatever. Is there some stuff to be looking out for? So so the Wings of Refuge website has has resources on it. Like, there's a there's a section on it where you can go and, like, watch clips or there's, like, book suggestions, Read, watch, click. There's, like, other websites and stuff that you can go to that that you can learn more. I I do wonder if I was thinking about that too, some tangible ways of, like, just, like, daily things. What can you keep an eye out for? We're we're Nate, we were talking about, like, can you help with the Super Bowl? Like, you know You would just roll up there, like, community watch style. Like, tell us what we're looking for and and and I'll skip the game. Tell me what we can what we're looking for. Yeah. So I I don't know. Like, I've Do you know of any resources for that? That type of thing?

Just like what to look What to watch for? I don't personally, but I I can get in contact with Joy and she's Yeah. Probably I I feel like Even things like the Iowa State Fair. Yeah. Right on. I mean, here in Des Moines. Yeah. See, and this is what we've been talking about. Like, this this is the the the the community of of of God's church. I mean, doing something instead of just like here's the thing. You wanna complain about the government, realize they only have the power you've abdicated to them. Right? And that's what's going on here. Right? So, like, if if you thought, like, hey. Our our whatever sex trafficking watchdog of the government sucks, they're not getting enough, don't you get a band of dudes together and we'll get out and do it? Yeah. You know what I'm saying? We'll prowl the state fair. I'll take a couple nights off. We'll just go hanging around. We'll keep an eye out for stuff that shouldn't be going down. Right. And then and then maybe your your complaints can have some validity. But like sitting in your armchair throwing fists at everybody, that's not helping nothing. So so, yeah, Super Bowl. Super Bowl time. Get some dudes together. State fair time. Dudes together. In fact, what we need to ask is, when do we need to get dudes together? You tell us the events and what we're looking for and we'll get dudes together. Well, some of this I think back to back to Nate's example, if there's 80,000 cars on the road over a given year, I mean, like, it's Frankly, it's probably just knowing the difference. Right? Yeah. Like, if I know basic things, look look for someone who's obviously there against their will. Right? Or, like, just just in situations that should throw up a flag to say, hey. I wonder if there's something going on there. Am I willing to just go say hi and and sniff it out just one bit farther than what I normally would? And so, like, here's the thing. People who know the difference

know the difference. Yeah. Alright? And so, like, you don't you don't even necessarily have to say, hey. Tell me the events where we put guys at. You know what? Most people are going to the fair anyway. Just keep your eyes open at the fair. Yeah. Yeah. You know, the the Iowa State Patrol would probably know a lot about that too Yeah. About how to spot that stuff. And I know kind of ignorant on this on this topic of, like, being able to spot, you know, who's being trafficked and who's not. But on TV shows, I've seen where, you know, girls who have been trafficked or in an abusive relationship, they have some sort of signal that's a nonverbal signal that they can give to, you know, if they've been allowed to go to the gas

station and get a drink. Yeah. You know, that they can kind of pass on to the clerk or something to, like, tell them, like, hey, I need help. Yeah. And so it'd be great to find out what those things are. Yeah. We should know can't help you do that right now. Alright. Yeah. Let's I don't know. Yeah. People gotta know. State patrol, that's a good call. Yeah. You know, and But that's only half the equation. Once they're once they're rescued, they've gotta have somewhere to go. Right. And that's the key to the second location of Wings of Refuge. Yeah. They've gotta have somewhere to go to be restored and and learn how to live an independent and a confident life. You know, I'm gonna Grant me the some some grace here because I get that this is not this is not an apples to apples comparison. I think you can There's there's an inference here that I may not be intending to make. But, like, when when she was talking about, like, if you get out of it but you don't have anywhere to go, like, you end up back in it, it made me think of the demons leaving and then the seven more coming in. Right? Like, if you don't if you don't have something to to replace it, you remain hospitable

or you you may, like, going back to anything else. Exactly. Right. And so And I thought, yeah. Like, not seeing both sides of the equation, like, the the big victory seems like, yes, we we snatched someone away from the from the problem, but, like, that that's a very shallow it's a It's quantifiable. Yeah. It's something you can put in the news, like 200 people were rescued. Like, that is great and I celebrate that. Sure. But 200 people need restoration. Yeah. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Rescued into what? You know what I'm saying? Like, they moving them out of that of this I mean, if if you go from one white van to another white van, did it really matter that you moved? It would it it have made no difference. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So so yeah. Absolutely.

It's it's recognizing that, like, what what are we seeking. Right? Are we seeking the count that says, hey. We got we got them out of back of a semi trailer. I mean, that's great. But, like, we're we're long haul folks. In fact, we're we're forever type of people. We're eternity minded kingdom folk. We say, we we we just don't do the the event counting. We're we're long term restoration people. That's how we look at things. It's how we understand things. And so we gotta be careful that we look at

when we're when we're gauging effective work, that we're under we're counting in the right perspective, that we're looking at the right way. Yeah. Well, and the the reality is we all return to we all return to our sins unless we're we got Christ in our eyes. Yeah. You know, unless unless we're seeking him and being intentional about that. Yeah. Then then we'll return to our sins almost every time. Yeah. Yeah. Right on. Alright. So here's what here's what we're gonna do. We're we're praying on this stuff. We're gonna work on some education stuff on our end, but definitely go to wingsofref refuge .net and then follow both Wings of Refuge and Merry Christmas, Nate, on

on Facebook. Now here's the deal. Tomorrow's Giving Tuesday. In fact, by the time you see this, it will be today. Get I mean, get on that. One, like, share just share it. Right? Nate Nate's right. Like, maybe it's not you. Maybe you don't maybe you're giving your money something else. Look. God's got all kinds of cool, sweet kingdom work. Great. Be honest. But that doesn't mean you don't know someone that this this is something that would be beneficial for them to see. It's something that they care about, something they can give to. And so,

social media is is at its best when it allows us to connect people and things, especially things that we care about. Yeah. And so, if you can share the share the pages, share the campaign, go to merrychristmasnate.com and and donate. And here's the Even if you can only give $10, a lot of $10 gifts donations add up. Yeah. Can I share a story real quick? Yeah. Go ahead. So during the Happy Birthday Nate campaign five years ago, I I was about halfway through the campaign and I was getting kind of bummed out because momentum had kind of dwindled down, you know? Yeah. It was it was long after your show, of course. No. You were Absolutely. Your show, the momentum was Life from the past, Mike. It's stellar. Absolutely.

But so I was really down. And and all of a sudden, one morning, my contact with World Vision that was working with, they called me and they said, hey, you just got a $15,000 donation. And I thought, what in the world?

The more I found out about it was that it was this church in California that I have no connection with. Mhmm. And they, three years before, had raised money and they were gonna give their, some of their missionaries money for nets for malaria. Yeah. And they raised the amount that they needed to raise. And so they had $15,000 sitting in their bank account earmarked

for mosquito nets. Awesome. That they that they couldn't do anything with until somebody was raising money for mosquito nets. Yeah. Right. You know how the law works. If a donor wants it to use for something, you have to use it for something. Yeah. So so they saw the campaign and they donated $15,000.

Awesome. What I learned through that was that the Lord goes before me. Right. He prepares the way. And so by sharing, you know, donating is is perfect because it helps others and it helps you understand that you're part of the process. Yeah. But also just by sharing the content and sharing it across your social media network, you allow other people to see that. Yeah. And so the Lord worked in that church three years earlier and finally gave them an opportunity to give. That can happen too. Right. You know, what if there's $750,000 sitting in a bank account earmarked for restoration of sex traffic victims? Yeah. The lord's pockets are deep and I don't mean that in a like a name it and claim it kind of way. No. Yeah. Right. He's The lord's economy is amazing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we think a $5,000 goal and we're like, that's doable. And the Lord laughs and goes poof. Yeah. That's that other I want it to be doable. I want it to be great. I want it to be me. Yeah. I want you to know I was here. And I want it to be him. And I want it to be him.

That ain't no doubt. I Boy, I just I love it when I get these these things in my head about how the Lord interacts with his people. We're like, these dudes raising $15 and he's like, yeah, hold on to that for a little while. But Lord, it's $15. I just need you guys to sit tight. I got us some other stuff. I'll tell you what to do with it later. That's right. I'm sorry. You don't sit in this chair. I sit in this chair. Oh, man. That is that is a prime opportunity to to to Abram and Sarai. Right? You can get like $15. Lord, what are gonna do? I'm a find something. You'll be spending put guys on it all day trying to figure out what to do with this money when your goal is just to sit tight. Yep. You just hold on to that money. I think that's why the the the 750,000 doesn't seem like a big deal to me because Yeah. Number one, it's not my job to worry about it. It's my job to do what I've been called to do. That's right. Faithful to me means God's gonna have to handle the ends. That's a God sized figure. He's gonna have to do that. I obviously can't do it, so it's it's gotta be Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Unless you unless you get well, you sent you spent $7.20 on the radio. If you caught me a couple a couple hours earlier. I mean, I drove three Jaguars in here separately. Like, not the car. You own exotic animals. Actual Jaguars ride through town. On a saddle. Their names are Mick Jagger and Son. Alright. Hey. Big thanks for the to Nate for coming in. Hey. Thanks so much for having me, It's been awesome. Absolutely.

We'll we'll keep you apprised of kind of how the campaign is going, and and we'll keep pushing that stuff and you'll you know? Were you ever concerned that merry christmas nate.com was already taken? Mhmm. I would have been really fired up. Well, I checked it out first. Yeah. I mean, I'd had to call the guy. I'm like, you gotta be kidding me. I would have I would have done something like the real merry Christmas. The Lord goes before me. Merry Christmas. So I I think your big way to change the world is to be involved in this Wings Refuge business. I think in in minor ways, Mike, we're gonna try to change the world on some advice. Maybe Nate will bail us out here. Go ahead. People need help. Go ahead. Dear life from the path. My 25 year old son, quotes Jay, would like to come home for Christmas. I'm paying, so I made his reservation yesterday.

Late last night, he told my husband he needs to go back two days earlier because of work. Mhmm. This change will cost around a $150 more than the 215 I'm already paying. Although my son earns a 6 figure salary, he is unable to pay his student parent loan on time each month. When he's late, I get harassing emails and phone calls. The loan is in my name because Jay blew all of his 60 k he got from a settlement, and he begged me to do this for him so he could graduate. My husband and I are retired, but we both work part time. Jay and his sister are reluctant to pay for their tickets when they want to see us. They each live in an hour plane ride away. They always seem to have enough money to travel and do what they want to do. I am so upset. I'd like to cancel the holidays because I feel we are being taken advantage of. What do you think? Okay. Yeah. Two things. One, yes, you are being taken advantage of. That's true. Two, just you fly to go see them. Yeah.

Quit flying them around. That's a good solution. Just go it's just like, if you want to see them, just go see them. You you ain't gonna bail on your own plane ticket. No. You're gonna stay the appropriate amount of days, then you will fly home. Yeah. I mean, like, obviously, the behavior is not good, but, mean, what are you gonna do at this point? Like, you you I I hope they changed the ways. I think you should talk to them. You're still the parents. You should try do your best to influence the situation. But, like, up there's probably a maturity issue there. They might very well get over it. There's no reason to blow up the universe on the thing. Just control what you can control, go see them, and stop buying them tickets. Yeah. You're spending too much time being mad about something. Right? Like, know the deal. You can either go visit them or look, they can't they can't take advantage over you if you just give it to them and be like, yeah. I'll pay for it. And then they they try to stay two days later, go home two days earlier, and you go, sounds good. It was a gift anyway. Do whatever. You know what I'm saying? Like, well, what Ben Ben says that all the time, that people can't steal what you from you what you gave them. That's correct. And so, like, if you give My kids hate that. Yeah. They can't Lady Lus stole that from me. You should just give it to her and the problem goes away. Yeah. Well, the son could pay the

fee, the $150. And then that way, he's getting a trip. He didn't have to pay the two whatever it cost, but he pays for the the change of ticket. Yeah. So, like, here here's the deals. I think I think that if you if you need, like, a line in the sand or or a straw that breaks the camel's back here, that's probably the offer I'd make. Say, look, you you pay for the extra 115. If he refuses Yeah. Then put him in the right bucket. Say, look, he's just being stubborn and he's being selfish, and he's he's not he's not respecting my the fact that I'm buying him stuff, the the tickets and stuff. And and so I'm just going to stop doing that because he's made it clear that he he's not handling this correctly. However, I'll just I'll reorient, and I'll just go visit him so I don't have this problem. I'll I'll, you know, I'll do my best to influence the situation, but the it's it's not worth blowing up a relationship on. So, yeah, I would I would give him a chance to to to react in what we consider reasonable way. If he's completely unreasonable, then just acknowledge that and then handle the situation, granting you're dealing with an unreasonable person. Most most major relationship problems, this is true in marriages too, is like, you recognize someone as not being reasonable and you still hold them to a standard of reasonableness and that becomes your fault. Like, you just like, if two if when people get in an argument, if one person agrees to not lose their head and to try to stay reasonable in the situation, that fight doesn't go anywhere. Someone blows off steam. They probably apologize for it later. If they're, you know, things come around, you're probably fine. But it's when you amp up and decide you're gonna meet towns with this person and, like, you're being unreasonable. Well, I will be unreasonable as well. And they're, yeah, that's when your big problems happen. So, like, just put them in the right bucket. Just know what you're dealing with. Somehow realize that you're a failure as a parent and then start visiting them.

I I My four year old is unreasonable. So I feel like I'm I am an expert in this. That's what I'm saying. You're holding your own bro. There's no reason and that's the thing. Yes. Can you give him time out? Yeah. You ever seen a you ever seen a parent amp up and become just as unreasonable with a four year old in the store? You're like, knock it off, man. Yeah. That kid is pulling your chain. Yeah. Just, you know, don't you don't have to meet them. They look ridiculous. Just kinda look at him. He's like, you're you're looking real ridiculous right now. Actually, boy, that's the that's the it's the most pathetic thing in the world to witness. You know what I'm saying? Where, like, this three year old kid will come doting up with these triple chocolate chip granola bars, and the mom all like, I tell you every time I come here, we're not getting a trip. I'm like, hey, The kid was way calmer about this. This granola bar purchase. You could've been like, yeah, man. No. That's not gonna happen. Your kid is outmaturing you right now. That's right. You're getting owned. He he saw chocolate chip granola bars and like any regular person, he's like, heck yeah. I wonder if I can get this. Who can fault him for this? Yeah. Okay. Let's see. That's our advice. What's the secular advice? Secular's advice. Now hold on. We didn't happen to mention that the man makes 6 figures at 25 years old. I don't know what he was To pay the for. Like, people seem to be having a hard time getting gigs out of college. And not this guy, he shows up cleaning the floor, making a 125, a 100 k right off the bat. I mean yeah. So here's the thing. This this runs deeper than the than the the plane tickets. Right? She's like, hey. He's not paying his student loans. Yeah. He's always I mean, he's acting it sounds like he might be irresponsible. But then again, she's going to tell all the all the details, otherwise, support her side of the story. And so you got to What do you think his side is that supports him paying it late and shafting his mom with a $115 in fees? Student loans. So here's the question, Mike. Here's the question. What does it say about her that she agreed to do that anyway? So, like, if he he boot with the settlement, who knows what happens. Right? Yeah. Man gets hit by a golf cart or something. $60 doesn't mean you didn't get hit by a truck. Right. That's a golf cart. And so he gets hit by a golf cart, gets a settlement of $60,

can pay for his own stuff, blows it in her terms and she says, you know what? I'll still vouch for him. I'll put this giant whatever this massive payment is on my own stuff. I'm just saying, well, man, what are you gonna say to him? Should've bought a camper. Yeah. There's nothing I can do for you. Yeah. I say, hey. You had the money. You blew it. I'm not I'm not borrowing it. You're gonna have to figure it out. Yeah. That's a Gracefield world. Sorry. Hey. Hold hold on Jake. No hab for this guy. Ben keeps him down in the pit. So by that perspective, you keep buying him the plane tickets? Yeah. No. Yeah. I don't do that. Because he can't steal from me what I give to him. Now, I I hear what you're saying, but I can solve the problem without having to bail plane tickets on him by just going to Well, aren't you wormly? You can just just take care of it this time and then, you know, next time, just not offer to buy it. And then that way, you don't have to say, well, it's because you did this or you didn't do that. You can just yeah. We're just He says, hey. You guys gonna cover my plane ticket this time? And your response is No. Yeah. No. I'm with you. I'm with you there. Yeah. If I could give any parenting advice right now way to take the hint. That's right. You just you just gotta drop one word answer. Stop trying to give your kids a fifteen minute explanation on crap. When they say, hey. Can I have an apple? You say, no. No. And that's it. Hey. Boom. Here's the deal. That guy's old enough. Like, I think he's obviously aware he's not spending his money wisely. Right? I think he knows he's not paying the student loan. He gets like, people people that are jerks tend to have a sense that they're jerks. They just don't wanna do anything about it. He's making 6 figures. He's gotta be somewhat diligent.

Right? I wonder maybe he's not act maybe he's lying about that. Maybe he's not actually making 6 figures. What a ruse. Although, I wouldn't say that if I also wasn't paying my bills. Right. If he's gonna lie, he should come up with a better one. We've made too many assumptions about this man. Alright. Go ahead. So far, he's not stand up. That's what I know. Secular says, I think that rather than cancel the holidays, which was a bit dramatic for me. Christmas is done. Yeah. You can hijack him, you can't cancel it. That's right. You can't put the x name. It says, you and your husband should use the visit to inform your 25 year old son that it's time to grow up and pay his bills. Because he now has a six figure income, thanks to your generosity, he should assume responsibility for his student loan debt and pay it on time. And if he doesn't, consider reviewing your estate plans and subtracting what he owes you. Wow. Vindictive right at the end. I took a script. Yeah. Bull, I didn't see that coming. And by the way,

gulch him on the on the will. Boy, what what kind of insert And then roast him on social media. Yeah. That's right. What kind of insert is that into the will? It's like, to Chuck, we leave 50% minus c attached excel spreadsheet. All the times you put the All plane ticket fees that we had to pay. Plus the 28% vig, you're in some trouble, friend.

Alright. Yeah. No. Our our advice is better. Let's see. You wanna do let's do one more. Ready? Yeah. One more. Dear live from the path, I have hearing loss. My insurance isn't very good and the monthly payments for hearing aids are the equivalent of a car payment. Nope. So I try my best and do without. People who know about my hearing loss will talk louder for me or let me know when they need my attention. Even strangers will repeat themselves or talk louder if I say I'm hard of hearing. Problem is that my husband refuses to talk louder for me or make any any attempt to improve our communication. He's gone as far as to threaten that he just won't talk to me anymore because he's sick of repeating himself. Well, you heard that, didn't you? No matter how many times I say I can't hear, he practically whispers or will scream at the top of his lungs at me to make a point. It's like he's taking my hearing loss personally as though somehow my hearing loss is my fault. This is not funny. I'm sorry. No. I also feel he may have an ulterior motive for talking softer. Weird. I feel depressed and isolated and I'm not sure what to do. My marriage marriage is falling apart. Any advice is appreciated. I this is not fair. She can't say I feel like he has an ulterior motive and not say what it is. That's what I thought. I'm interested to know what she what plot he's I mean, he mean, he's acting like a child. That's certainly true. But, like, the reason why is extremely interesting. I really wish she would have said, I cannot think of an ulterior motive of, like, of speaking softly so my wife can understand.

To to what end could could what what could your second angle be? Right? Yeah. Like, well, okay. So I know what I would do. I would I would talk low enough where she wouldn't respond and be like, I said we should get Pizza Hut and you didn't say anything, so I went ahead and got Pizza Hut. So I mean but I mean, that that can only play for a number of weeks. Yeah. Right. I feel like a year over I year would go bigger. I'd go in like a boat. Like, remember that boat we talked about? Yeah. There's a guy at the radio show selling a live jaguar with

a saddle. That's right. Yeah. And you didn't say anything, so I felt like that was a tacit yes. I don't I don't here's the deal. I I assume that that she's did she say how old she was? No. So, I mean, this is just flat out jerky behavior. Like, she's right. Basic strangers recognize when you can't hear. Right? Like, when someone's having trouble hearing, they speak up. And so, like, if you're her own either there's something else going on and, like, she's reading way too far into whatever his reaction or the guy is just being, like, a flat out jerk. Yeah.

And and, like, the the the core of it isn't his speaking louder. Like, there's there's some there's another problem going on, probably tied up in those ulterior motives she was discussing. But, like, I feel like the guy needs Jesus and some decent friends. He'll be like, stop treating your wife like that. That's true. Decent friends wouldn't allow this to continue. Yeah. And then Jesus wouldn't allow this continue. Talk louder, Jim. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe they could help out with hearing aid costs too. Yeah. Second option. Actually,

you know what would be interesting is if she got a hearing aid, like, does what does old Jimmy do? Now what's he gonna do? Maybe maybe he likes to he likes to spend the hearing aid money on other stuff. Like pizza and jet pipes. Yeah. Shoot. I'm I'm having the hardest time putting a black hat on on these ulterior motives of this man. I just I can't come up with nothing. Can we get the

the people from the first question to start stop paying for their son's stuff and start giving their money to the the hearing aid? Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Your son's it's a wasted Hey. You're wasting it. Maybe the son is actually extremely benevolent and his his parents are jerks and he's letting them pay for it because he's like, screw you, jerk. But he actually given all his money to charity. Yeah. That's the act of most benevolent people. They usually bless a bunch of people and then say, screw you, jerk, to their parents. That sounds right. People are messy and complicated, Mike. Don't you know people? I have a three-dimensional personality. It's hard to grasp. Alright.

Alright. So reasonable advice for this woman is well, so okay. One, I would say that something else seems to be going on. Right? Like, I know that this for her is centered around her inability to hear. You might you might see like, if you have if you have a if you have a church family, I would ask to either the pastor or someone around to help you meet help mediate a conversation simply so you have someone that's willing to tolerate talking and to to pass on information, if not counseling, certainly. Like, something where you have there's obviously a conversation that that needs to be had that isn't

that is bigger than the hearing issue because there's no reason for that guy to be acting like, this was death to his part and he he something's up. Something's up here that's outside of the hearing aid. Secondly, I think there are organizations that do help with hearing aids. Yeah. I feel like they can help. And so I I couldn't tell you what they are because I've not been in need of one. But I feel like there are places that help do that kind of thing. I mean, a little bit to be fair. Like, sometimes it's hard to judge what level of hearing loss someone has. Right? Yeah. And then by the time you amp it up enough, now it sounds like you're yelling at them and being a big jerk. Hey, man. That happens to me at my house. I've been married to I'm sorry. Go ahead. Tell your story. I'll just I'll parlay. What's that you say? I'm having a hard time.

I'm gonna keep my anecdote to myself. Go ahead. I was actually done. What the heck ever? You didn't have any more DJs. There's gotta be cheaper cheaper option for Like a code? A Well Like a code on it. Like an a? I don't mean this to sound, you know, the way it's gonna sound but, you know, I've seen I've seen they have those, like, little Bluetooth things are supposed to be hearing aids. And they're not like the professional, like, medical hearing aid Right. But they're like, they amplify things for you. Yeah. And certainly that doesn't cost

a car payment. What if you called them on the phone? Yeah. Well, I mean That's what I always thought. Those those look like real Bluetooth until you actually get a phone call. Yeah. Right. But I mean, something like that, you know, could Yeah. Sort of like be the halfway point there. Yeah. There's I think out. I think there's options. And maybe he maybe he is frustrated. Right? Like, he wants to have a normal conversation and he can't. But, like and he's gotta get over that. It's just I mean, that's just the nature of being in a relationship with someone. Like, sometimes stuff like that happens. And maybe he's having a hard time dealing with it. Again, friends. Friends, you gotta keep you gotta keep some community around you, fella. Yeah. And people to both encourage and then put the stomp on you when you need it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Alright. I'm sorry. Did wanna you finish your story? No. Never mind. Yeah. So here's the thing. My wife I've been married

twelve years. And this is not this is still not this has not changed. This is something that I've just I felt like it was gonna improve as our marriage goes on, and it's not it's not changed. My lovely wife will talk to me across the house as if I'm in the room. You have this? Mhmm. And I can hear her saying. I say, hey. Hey. I I I start say I say, I say, hey. I didn't hear that. And I start walking that direction. And so she says it again. But again, like, I'm standing right I said, and

I said, cannot hear the thing. And so I get into the room and then now she obviously she's upset. She's upset because I didn't take it in because I was not in the vicinity. And she's talking loudly and is angry with me. And I thought, boy, I just I could not have done anything in this situation. And I said, babe, I wasn't I wasn't near you. That's not the problem. I wasn't ignoring you or anything. I actually started moving your direction. I wasn't gonna yell across the house. I moved to you to take it in. But now it sounds like I just ignored her three times. And so now, I think to myself, think of that guy's situation and, like, he says a few things and by the third time, now it sounds like he's angry with his wife. But really, he just he just unreasonable about her ability to take it in. And so they have some real nasty conversations that were just situational because she didn't hear it well. Yeah. That happens a lot. Like, you said something that would've been either funny at the time or a situational thing to say, and then they didn't hear it, and you're like, what was it you said? And you're like, forget it. The time has passed. No. I don't wanna forget it. I want you to tell me. I don't wanna say it. It's not funny now. Yeah. Then you'd be like, you know, it's it's a goat picture. And then your wife goes, yeah, yeah, goat picture. Yeah. Goat. No. Said goat picture. And she's wishing she didn't hear you. Yeah. Timely. Thanks. Thanks, Mike. Okay. Secular says, of course you feel depressed and isolated, exclamation point. Your husband either doesn't like or hasn't accepted the fact that you have a hearing disability. Well, I I think that's fair. Who would love it? So he's punishing you for it. What he's doing is emotionally abusive. Please have your hearing checked by an audiologist to determine how much of your hearing you have lost. I bet you didn't think of that. Thanks, secular. Take your husband along so a professional can explain it to him. And be sure to ask if there may be lower cost options for an assistive device that won't bust your budget.

Okay. We said some of that. Yeah. Well, we didn't have near the condescension. We're pretty close. We suggested, helpful helpful community community budget. Yeah. I don't you know, I don't know. Don't I mean, text. Text your I mean, come on now. Yeah. Clickety. Yeah. Write it down. Anything. Old people have cool cursive handwriting. I'll port that off. I was on left field. I'll honest with you.

You'll fight to each other. I didn't see that coming at all. Cursed. What's cursive? Dear Aesthetist. Can you hear me now? Dear calligraphy. Alright. Yeah. No. We we yeah. That's that's better. We changed the world there. Alright. Hey. You've been listening live from The Path. Thank you for hanging out with us tonight. Again, big thanks to Joy Fatma for joining us to talk about Wings of Refuge. Big thanks to Nate for coming in. He made the he made the trek over here, came into the building,

and make sure you go do the things we talked about. Right? Well, you're gonna go to merrychristmasday.com. You're gonna follow merrychristmasnight and Wings of Refuge on the Facebook. You can go to wingsofrefuge.net to see more about them and to find those, the resources, the books to read. They've got some clips that you can watch and some other websites that you can visit. Be praying on that stuff. And here's here's the deal. I whether it's sex trafficking, whether it is, the drug drug recovery, whether it is looking at health care differently, like, put take everything that that that where darkness may exist in the world and recognize God's got people on it for a reason. It's the church is his chosen means to share good news into the world and watch hope and joy restored

that ultimately points us back to the truth of what Christ has done for us both now and forever. So, you know, be just be part of that. Man, that that's where that stuff comes from, and and we get to be a part of that. That's an honor to serve the kingdom in that way, and I would encourage you to be part of it. So big thanks again. We will see you I don't know. We may not be in here next week. I'll I'll double check it. In the meantime, be faithful in the means. God will handle the ends. You've been listening to Live From The Path.