Live from the Pathway Studios in Johnston proper. You are live from the path. And you're listening to live from the Path Tribute from the Pathway Studios here at Johnston Proper.

I'm not sure if that's even true anymore. What a minute. It's an objective reality. Hey. Okay. Here's what we got going on the show today. Hey. Just real quick. If you have not if you're not listening to that, the fall of Mars Hill podcast, I would say I would say two things to you. One, it's pretty good. It's it's worth a listen. It's interesting. If you listen to Mark Driscoll, yes. But just in general, I think, like,

listening to a narrative of just church risks, I think, are are wise to be aware of. Mhmm. The risks that leaders run, the risks that people who love and trust Jesus in overly trusting and following fallible humans, even if they're popular, I think is is something like I think,

we do bear responsibility for our own spiritual walk. You have to be able to say, you know what? Nope. That don't sound right, and I'm not gonna do it. And so and being discerning in there. And so I I I think that's valuable. I think there's a lot of, they delve into things that maybe just, average average church attendee just doesn't think of about infrastructure stuff and, how people go about trying to talk about things and the the notion of seeing what what it feels like God is blessing something that if you were to look at it objectively go, I don't know why he would be blessing this.

Yeah. Actually, I think one of the points they were trying to make is like and and I caught myself. I say this quite a bit. Right? Like, it's like you judge a tree by its fruit, and you're like, we put up with this and this and this and this behavior, which we don't think is very good, but look at the fruit. Look what it's doing. And like yeah. It's we're we're we're stuck to and this will be true within Mars Hill for sure as you listen to the podcast, but it's true for your life as well is we're stuck in a in a in a finite time construct. Right? Like we we balance everything and measure everything by time and what we see and what we can see now. Right? And like

our judgment of what a good tree is producing or what fruit is good has a very small time window. You know? And so like, at the moment, we'll be like, this is what this is something that looks like it could be good. Yeah. Or this is something that looks like it's on the right path. And I mean, you don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of people you've ran into that have that are the are the seat on the rocks, you know. They get put out there and then they get choked up and gone. And for the for the first couple days, you know, we're like, yes, this is all heading in the right direction. This is very positive. This is very good. And so if you if you expand that out and go even even through ten years, I I I don't know I don't know that we have the complete ability to say

a man made structure, a man made way of doing things, can be labeled as, you know, good fruit, bad fruit. Obviously, if if Jesus says it, it's good fruit. And if Jesus says do not do that, then that would be the bad fruit. But but it's probably it's probably really hard to tell. I mean, especially as you listen to the stories through Mars Hill. I mean, they they had an amazing effect on the culture that they were in, where they had planted. They had they they took fellas to task for being responsible for their

families, for themselves, for being a member in their community. And like, if I were to start ticking boxes of what I expect, you know, God would expect out of men, it that covers a lot of ground. Yeah. You know? Mhmm. But once again, if you go about it in in a way that short changes the way that God wanted to do it, and and maybe that goes to church planning as a whole, which I I mean, I got zero experience in. But I do know that, like, we do spend a lot of time in form and function and deciding, you know, this is the program or the rubric or the or the play that has worked before. And like, once again, I I my experience with Jesus Christ is not that at all. Like he he does not

he does very inefficient things as far as my my human brain is concerned. Right? And what I would see as a logical a to b to c to d step, I mean, he'll have you walking all over the place and hit q on your way back to b before you move on to c. And I will go, well, what was the point in that? And he knows what the point was. I don't. You know? And so, like, I I I think Ben's right. I think you can grasp a lot of like, there's a lot of internal church stuff or, if you if you dig on church structure or you've had any leadership role in a church at all, some of the the the stuff that they did is is amazing. Like, some of the stuff that they did well,

was amazing. Right? They're buying out Kmarts in 10 miles to get enough clothes to baptize people, and you're like, what a problem to have. What an awesome problem to have. They're sending shifts of people out and cleared them out, the short aisle and the black t shirt aisle so they can get people baptized. And like, you listen to those stories and you're like, what is awesome? And and God certainly used those things for good regardless of what happened to a group of people of how of how they met. But there's also some huge danger in it too when you start to to push an agenda that like I don't know. It's to to try to make it a business format and make it grow how you see it should grow, and then stop having Jesus involved in the minute details. It's just a it's just a failure to be faithful in the means. It's it's it's driving ends and saying this is the end that we want. Actually, that's why I always struggle with, like, even as churches, like having certain types of goals. You're like, well, I mean, it's I think it's it's good to know

you need to assess the health of your community. Absolutely. But, like, goals this is true business too. Like like, sometimes cause us to to drive

of an end without asking whether we're walking faithful in the means to get there. And like I just happen to believe that faithfulness in the means will produce the proper end. Whatever end it can actually support. There's no reason to be arbitrary or inflated about what that end is. Faithfulness in the means will create its own proper ends that are reflective of that faithfulness. So why do you why do you have any confidence in that? And here's the reason I asked that, is because I was listening to I was listening to the Joshua Harris interview on on one of those, you know, and and he was very famous for writing a book that was I Kissed what? Dating by. Yeah. Whatever. Back in the nineties, 2000, something like that. And he was a reformed guy and and, you know, recently he's

basically walked away from Christianity and said he's not interested anymore. Mhmm. And I I started thinking about like, they have a lot of stories of people that like went to Mars Hill or went to a church and then like, after a while, they just decide, you know, this this wasn't for me. I'm having a hard time finding that. And so what they're what it sounds to me like they're missing is the thing that you just described is why do you have any confidence that that is the way that it will work out? Right? Have you ever been in a situation where somebody brought something to you and they wanted to talk to you about it because they knew you were like the Jesus guy in the room. Right? And they're so I have this real heavy thing. And they tell you the story and you're like, boy, I really want to hand over

my confidence in Christ about what's going on here. But I know that there's no way it is gonna land well. Right? This whole thing you've described is just ugly beyond ugly. And they don't have confidence in Christ. And so the thing that I'm gonna say is not gonna be comforting to them at all. And then and then for a split second, this will happen to me, I'll think, do I actually think that Christ will handle this? You know, like, I actually know?

Can I speak on his behalf? Can I say God will redeem this thing or God will be in the midst of this thing or or or the Holy Spirit will, you know, can be with you if you if that's what you choose? And, like, I was convicted because I was reading in Daniel this week about the those three dudes, Abbed Abbednego. What's name? Shadrach, Meshach. Shadrach, Meshach, and Abbednego. You don't have to say it like that. You can say Abbednego.

It's it's it's Yeah. A a bad dingle. It's Abbednego. A bad dango. Okay. Stop that. Okay. So anyway, I'm reading about the three fellows. Right? And like, they they they did something that I that I don't think that I could ever be accused of doing. It was is where Nebuchadnezzar created this this idol of a statue of himself. And, he basically said, look, everybody's gonna have to worship this thing. And the three bros weren't gonna do it. And so he was incensed, and he comes up to him and says,

listen, you're gonna you're gonna worship this thing. You're going in the fiery furnace, and I'm gonna beef it up eight times its regular heat, and you are gonna burn instantly. And they say, here's the deal. As our God totally could get us out of that furnace. But even if he doesn't, we're not going to worship that statue at all. And I thought, right there is something that I would never do, is say, God will get me out of this furnace. Now, is that because that I don't have the same confidence that God would come through on that thing? Or I feel not confident enough that I don't know what God's doing. Maybe he will let me burn for a principle. I don't actually know. I mean, they said that. Yeah. Yeah. They thought suppose they did say as much. And I suppose that's a catch all. Right? Like, because if God didn't show up and and and the furnace as well, then they're like, well, I told you either way, you know. But but is it cheating? Actually, it feels like cheating, I guess. Well well, here's the deal. Actually, this that's a really that that that kinda proves the point.

Because that's begging the question of the end. Like, we're trying to predict the end and then make sure God comes out looking shiny. The the faithful it's the the question is the faithfulness. I regardless of the end. Let's ignore the end because I can't control all those things. I know that I I can walk. This is what it looks like to walk faithfully with my God. Isn't And and no and it's simply a statement of fact that says, God could totally get us out of this thing. Yes. But even if he doesn't, we're not gonna worship that thing. Yeah. Right. Right. So so wrap all that up together. And and I guess my thought process is even through a guy like Josh, I go I think you must have not had that confidence at all. Right? Like, what what gives me the assurity that no matter what goes on here,

God will be God, you know? Christ is king, and like, my role in this thing is what it is. But trying to explain that to somebody that doesn't know Jesus or in certain facts when when your life's going rough and and and, you know, some things start in your mind and you're like, I mean, are are you are you actually on the throne? Can I count on you for this? Like, this my wayward family member is acting a fool? Like, know you play the long game, but how long? I mean, how long is this? Can I have faith that you're gonna try to turn this thing around or, you know, like, we're it's it's a simple it's a simple but maybe complex question, I guess? But but like, where's your confidence coming from? Yeah. I I always have trouble, you know, speaking for God, you know. Yes. I I always think, like, I mean, really you're gonna tell the the the prophets of Baal to go ahead and, you know, call on your God and and light that on fire. Yeah. And then it's not gonna work and I'm gonna mock you and then I'm just gonna suddenly speak for God and say, okay, burn this altar, you know. Yeah. And and it it worked because it was in the story. You know, we read it.

But I I was like, he must have some pretty good confirmation before that, before he said made such a bold comment, you know. Right. I mean, you don't just start going around saying, well, God's gonna do this or God's gonna do that unless you really know he's going to. Yeah. And like in in my own life, is when things are going going down, I think, this could be God's way of saying, hey, you're out, you know, or or, you know, it's it's time for you to do something different or, know, I'm done I'm done with with your child, you know, and your child gets sick and they're like, wait a minute, what? You know? Right. Right. I mean, I I don't I don't know. I don't know. And so it's hard to speak for God. I just with faith, you just say, well, God, you're in charge and you do what's best and and I'm just gonna trust you that things go well or not well, that you're still in control and you have something different. Yeah. And so and so like that actually, just before that story so you're talking Daniel chapter three, Daniel chapter two,

when God reveals the dream, Nebuchadnezzar's dream to Daniel, there's like a prayer. There's a praise in there, a blessing. And that's one of the things that Daniel says is that, hey, like, thank you. We know that you are God and we trust you. And it was one of those things where, like, realistically, this gets to I think the the the crux of the question. Is that, like, how do I know God is who he says he is? You will you will often come up with a a answer that rides the waves if your only point of view is through you personally. Because from from Daniel's perspective, he could look back and say, like, with what confidence does Daniel even say that? He his his him and his friends and parts of his family and granted, he was probably one of the king's relatives. And so, like, king's dead. So his family has been killed. The city's been ransacked by Nebuchadnezzar three times. The temple is destroyed. God's physical residence with his people on earth has been torn down. Yahweh, in effect, could have been thought of as being defeated by Marduk or Baal or whatever God is there because his people have been conquered and drug out of there. And

and so David, like or not David. Daniel realistically be like, well, how can I confidently say that God is who he says he is and that he's in control and that he is sovereign over all this? Look, we just got we got blambasted here. And so through if if if only through an a per individual site, I think it's a much harder question.

Then if we otherwise if you back the zoom the camera out, and you look over the history of humanity, and this is why we record, this is why the Bible exists, is reminders of God's faithfulness over time. His the prophet saying how things were gonna happen and they did. Reminders of how people have behaved and how God has responded. And then and and and altars and and Ebenezer's and physical things that reminds of that, those things. And then it's you have to deal with that, the reality of those things that is outside of just whatever thing is sitting in front of you now. Because I think it's a hard question in the midst of tragedy. Yeah. Like, no one is comforted in the midst of tragedy going, well,

one of your kids died, but, know, God's got this under control. He's sovereign over it all. Well, if he's sovereign over it all, like, couldn't he have couldn't even stop this thing? Right. And so I think it's a very difficult thing to deal with individually. It becomes a much more tangible and rational way to look at things and to be assured by when you can do it communally. When you can look at the history of God and his interaction with his people and probably within your own community and say,

I'm not feeling it right now. Through my own lens, my narrow lens, I'm questioning whether God is good and whether he is here. And then you you start taking in other things and go, you know, it's not it's not what I would have chosen, But I can trust God. I have seen him. This isn't a personal vendetta against me. It's a reded nature of a fallen world that this thing is occurring. And even in this, I have I believe that God is good. I think it's hard. Yeah. But it but it does require you a bigger frame of them than just your own. I'm pre teaching through the seven letters to seven churches in Revelation two and three right now. And and not last week, week before, I was looking at Smyrna. And and that's the the the church that received, hey, man, I from Jesus, I see things are really rough and people have died and it's awful.

Brace yourself. It's gonna get worse. Yeah. Yep. I mean, that's pretty tough. And I started playing around with the math and, you know, I'm thinking, hey, Polycarp. He's supposed to be from Smyrna. And I was kinda looking at his story and everything. And I thought, you know what? Polycarp would have been in his twenties when that letter was received in Smyrna. Yep. And so probably for the next sixty years, he talked from that letter saying, hey, be faithful, be faithful even to death. Things are gonna get rough. We don't know what's gonna happen. And then he dies a martyr, you know, what was it? What when was it one sixty five, something like that? AD. And it's like he he he lived it too. Yes. He taught it. He digested it. He saw it. But he also died through the Roman government for his faith. And and it's like, where in that like, God was so glorified in all that. Right. I I mean, it's it's awful and and you think, man, there's no hope and and how how how could a loving God let that happen? I know it's part of the story. Yeah. And I suppose that points to because some of the things they touched on in that in that Mars Hill podcast was people talking about deconstructing or whatever, and like, I don't actually know what that means. I think I get it, but I, you know

but but almost everybody they talked to that was deconstructing their Christian faith was doing it alone. Was doing it by themselves. Like, just let me just let me go. I need to figure this out. I like I just need to I need to think on this for a while. I need to whatever. And like very similar to what Ben said, that's very hard to try to look at God's faithfulness over your pinpoint in history.

Right? I mean, I I and frankly, we wouldn't want it any other way. We don't want a God that steps in and forces the hand of his own creation on the minute by minute basis. Now we do I mean, we do want him to step into creation and he's definitely done that. But definitely within my life, I can attest that he's done it. But but we're fooling ourselves to think that we would want anything more. Right? That we want a God that would step in and like and and basically hurt us around like cattle. That's not free will. That's not choice. That's not actual love. Right? Like that's that's a a preprogrammed response, based on stimuli. Right? Like it's it's nothing but a formula. And and we don't actually want that. And so trying to go through that through times of trial or or or what they call the deconstruction,

you try to run through that on your own. Yeah. You're probably gonna go, you know, now that I look back on it, I don't feel like God has moved in this place where I wanted him to or interceded in this place when I wanted him to. And you're probably right. He probably has not. But overall, as a community and as a church and as a world, God has revealed himself plenty, has has documented cases

through scripture of where he has. And like the community that you probably just left, if you'd had a Thursday night sit down, get together, and say, look, I need stories of where God showed up. Who can meet me at the church at seven? I the place would be packed. Yeah. Well, and actually, also on the opposite end of that, I was listening to I was just NT Wright has a podcast where people kinda write in and ask questions and stuff. Did you ever consider that his name is not Wright? Do mean? Right. Like if you put n t together and write, every time I see his name, I think that man's not right. That man's not right. Oh.

Hey, you got Nathaniel on that one? It was a comedy. It's just what I think. No. I did that. No. His name's Tom. Why does it go by n t? I think for, like, for his his his scholarly articles and and books, he's he's under n t Wright. For the stuff that is meant for everybody, for the lay folk, he writes under the name Tom. Tom Wright. He's not right. Yeah. Anyway What's the n's to it? Yeah. What's the n?

I don't know. Not Tom Wright? Yeah. I'm not sure on that. Nathaniel, probably. I'll put the Google on it. Okay. No. And Nathaniel put the Google on it. Okay. He's gonna work on it. So but anyway, so like on the going back for so someone written out their question about spiritual gifts and stuff like that and tongues and it's like, hey. But one of the stories they had was said, look, we me and some friends

were had read scriptures when we were younger and we said, look, we're supposed to have reaction to this and and and help the poor. And so they said for the last five, ten years, like, they they're a group. They get together from different churches, and, they just go out and they serve the poor. And they said, as part of just normal meeting, nobody comes from, like, a Pentecostal or, like, a Assemblies of God background or anything like that. So, like, they don't this notion of modern day spiritual gifts is not part of their teachings,

and no one has hazardous comfortable with it or anything. And then so but they said, like, it just started happening. Like, they wouldn't they were meeting and they were studying scripture and praying before going out and serving and stuff. And so, like like, stuff just started happening. Like, people would stand up and they would have words of wisdom or prophecy or, like, someone would start speaking in tongues, and they're like, we don't even have a background for this to, like, understand these things. And, like, I think the the whole question what the question this person was asking was, like, should we be teaching on this more? Be like, if there are real and true things that happen. And, like, I the basic answer was, like, this is how it's supposed to kind of occur. Like, you as opposed to to set in the end and saying, hey, this many people should do it or, like, I think falsely, you have churches will say, your your level of maturity is dependent on whether you do this or not.

It's a natural outgrowth of just people walking faithfully. That's all they did, is they just said, look, we feel the scriptures tell us that we're supposed to go serve the poor. We're gonna go serve the poor. As part of doing that, we're gonna get together and study the word and pray. And, like, over time, without asking for it and without having a teaching background, it just these things just started to occur. And and she said, it's continued to happen. Like, it doesn't happen all the time, but it's always like something that somebody needed to hear or it's a like, it's it's happening in an environment where we're trying to walk faithfully, and it feels like God send is sending the spirit

as encouragement and enabling walking faithfully as opposed to setting it like a target. Hey, I think we should be able to speak in tongues. And so, like, I actually thought that was kinda cool. I'm encouraged hearing someone tell that story. Hearing someone say, like, as opposed to all the stuff that people are battling and trying to figure out some sort of posturing or target, they're just saying, look, we just we as a humans, we know the Bible said this, and so we're gonna walk faithfully in this. And then who shows up when the people are walking faithfully? God shows up in that and affirms people and encourages them and provides gifts that continue to enable them to serve the kingdom in the way that the scriptures talked about. And I'm like, that seems right to me. As someone who doesn't have any of those gifts or has not seen them, like, that that seems I guess, I my notion of reading scripture, I've not seen scripture set targets.

I always see scripture just calling to faithfulness, and then stuff follows out of that. And without prescribing, like, the impact could be a thousand, it could be 10. Not my problem. My my issue is faithfulness. And then what and then God will send the spirit to come along in faithfulness, and then the right things will happen. It's not even my responsibility to measure them. They just are. Because like because here's the here's the question. Is that let's say you we we look at it and we go,

hey, man. You've been walking faithfully with Jesus for ten years, and only two people have been saved. And I am what am I supposed to say? Oh, well, what should I have done differently? Not walk faithfully with Jesus? Right? Like, there's not another option. Like, that's all you can do. And, like, I get it. There's, human notions of, hey, man. If we if we restructure our service or we do there's all kinds of stuff you can do that that tickles the wick and gets people to to to pay attention. And I I don't think Jesus was above that. I I don't think the church should be either. But, like, at its core,

if your notion of doing anything isn't walk faithfully with Jesus, like, I don't I don't care about any other posturing or program you have. Like, it's that. You feel like the like most of the disappointment then that these fellows are going through is probably rooted in them trying to control the ends. Yes. Here's what I expected That's right. God to do. Here's the the modicum of success I expected or the feeling I expected. And instead of just doubling down on faithfulness and letting God be God, we said this has to be something that God would want and therefore it didn't happen. And so God probably is That's right. In it. Yes. I think I think and humans get easily tied up with that. Even and with the church, it gets crowned as right thing, wrong way. Like, hey, I want our goal, our mission as a church is to be the largest church in the Des Moines Metropolitan Area. Well, I mean, is it wrong to have the largest church? No. Is it is it good to say we have a lot of influence? Well, if you're teaching the Bible, like, sure. Why wouldn't you want that? That sounds great. Like, these all seems like really good things. The question is is less about what your target is. Is that, like, what like, if you're be walking faithfully with Jesus here and listening and letting the spirit guide you, like, he'll send the people if he wants the people there. Like, you just gotta know your limits, man. And so I I just I know this seems like I'm I'm tugging back on, shouldn't we aspire to greatness for the gospel? Yes.

But I think greatness for the gospel is you walking faithfully in it. And that's it. And, like, and maybe God will grow that. And maybe you're walking faithful in the gospel is for your neighbor. And that's it. He's the only guy who'll ever hear you, and he will come to love Jesus for it. And, like, God doesn't say, well done, my faithful, like, goal setter. Well done, goal achiever.

Well done, my good and faithful servant. Your job is to serve. That's it. Like, he's he's looking at what you you're walking faithfully with him. The outcomes are his to handle. And so I think, like, listening to the Mars Hill story and and the stuff from Josh Joshua Harris, I'd like at some point, you just get an expectation. You get used to having a level of influence. You get used to,

having an idea of how something should or should not work. Frankly, this is the reason people don't apologize. This is where we lack humility in things. Hey. If people find out about x y z, they're gonna stop coming to the church. They're gonna feel they're gonna realize that we acted this way, so we keep it all backed up. Is that walking faithfully, like not being humble, not repenting, not apologizing, not forgiving?

So what it did, protection of the you thought was the good thing, you neglected to walk faithfully. Yes. Recipe for disaster. You know who nailed this? John the Baptist. Like, he was the he was the he was the Driscoll of the of the early age. Right? Like, just calling everybody out, giving everybody the repentance speech, saying I'm tired of all this, blah blah blah blah blah. And then Jesus shows up and he goes, I gotta shrink back. Yeah. Time for this ministry to fold up, you know. Yeah. And and and just shrunk to the back. Got himself put in prison, died beheaded. And and he lived a faithful, awesome life, Elijah style. Just just rolled the whole thing. And and and and Jesus even attested to the same thing. He's like, it's the best man born a woman. I'm telling you this guy's alright. Yeah. You know? And like, we think, well, how could you possibly do that? If God has set your church on a trajectory to be a megachurch, why would he ever take that away? He did it to John. So That's right. I I mean, if if if John is subject to the the the whims of the Holy Spirit, then so, sir, are you And he allowed it in Jerusalem. Think of it that, like, think of the diaspora of the church. Like, after Jesus dies and resurrects and the church is growing,

and then persecution happens, and the temple is destroyed, and Jews are spread out everywhere. And we're like, but we really had a good thing going in J Town here, Lord. Like, why would you allow this to break up? I'm like, because I do what I want. This is it's not your deal. Because once again, we we we get to see a small slice of time in the time that we're looking at it, and God sees all of time all at once. Right? Like, he's he's not there's not a past or a future to him. He just sees it all. And so, like, some of the things that he that the Holy Spirit will ask us to do or guide us to don't make a a a flipping bit of sense at all to us. We're like, I don't know. This makes what do you mean shut the doors down or or close the place or start seven churches and and cut ours into half? Why would we cut our our our growing congregation into seven congregations? Jesus goes, because I want you to do that. Yeah. And because I want I want you to do this thing. I'm telling you, it's gonna work out. You know? And like, I I guess just to to clarify, like, I have a bench towards I just don't like things being

where it feels like you're trying to drag the spirit around. And so I get nervous about it. And I get nervous about structures and posturing. But the reality is is that, like, I think it's okay to have goals. But, like, the the the point is to say, you know, what's the what's most important is that you're walking faithfully with Jesus. You're faithful in the means. Beyond that, like, God may allow you to set a goal simply so you can see that his hand was involved in surpassing it. I don't think it's necessarily wrong. But, like, the moment I mean, the moment the notion of some sort of goal or target that you set sacrifices even the smallest breath

related to you faithfully following Jesus, you're done. This became about you. Yeah. Well, I've and and I suppose that's pretty easy to to to to put a bellwether against is like, get rid of all growth goals. Right? Let God handle growth. That's ends. Right? And so, like, don't say, hey, we're gonna target this area, or whatever and and for growth, We're gonna target this area for faithfulness. And so that's what we're going to do and watch God do growth all the time. Yeah. Because those are the because the thing is is that, like, that's the question you you should reasonably ask. If you let's say your church was at a thousand, and then two years go by and your church is at 500, and you're like, boy, what the All these people are leaving. What the heck are we doing wrong? And then what do you what do you what's the first thing you're gonna check? You should check faithfulness. Hey. Are we teaching the word faithfully? Yes. We said true things. Are we serving the poor? Are we ministering to the people that are part of our community? Are we blah blah blah? Like, figure out all the notions of, like, things that otherwise reflect faithful walking with Jesus. And if you are nailing them, then, like, it's soup the other things you're gonna change are relatively superficial. Right. Like, but that those are the first things you ask. And so just get the that's what I'm saying. Like, if the that's that's paramount. Everything else is, like,

human behavior stuff, which is it's not it's not unimportant. I'm just saying that, like, that's where the ultimately, the destruction of Mars Hill and the current state of Joshua Harris' Christianity are notions of false or of ends, of I want an end. Okay? I'm it's my responsibility as a pastor here to turn around all the boys within the church, and they're gonna be good men, and they're all gonna have jobs, and the ladies are gonna stay home. I'm like, I mean, you overstepped your bounds, bro. Let's start with walking in faithfulness. Like, and how are you gonna get them there? You're gonna you're gonna get a behavior that is domineering, abusive, and language unbecoming of a pastor, a leader of the of a church of God, and now what? Well, maybe you whip him all into shape. You got your ends, but you got them through human means. And that's and that's you don't you can't lead you can't lead God's people acting that way.

And so can you can you aspire things? Yeah. God I think God put some of that stuff on your heart. I think it's okay. And I think people do need to be motivated. Sometimes you gotta help people see a vision bigger than themselves. Hey, man. Our whole block, our whole city can love and serve Jesus. It's possible. It's okay to motivate people that way. I think the scripture does that. It's a whole it's a the nature of what God's people were to do. But I'm just saying, like, where it fails, it fails because someone

saw the ends and then co opted them and was willing to try to get them into other ways than otherwise were just walking faithfully with Jesus. And your and your own ambition can't bear it up. And and and it harms the church, and it harms people that go to the church. And it makes people like it's your sin in leading that way, will fall on other people, and there will be people who will sever their their relationship with Jesus because of it. It's a disaster, and you should be held to the highest account. You will listen to Life in the Path. Now that that was number one. My second here is my second heads up on this podcast. Oh, great. Hold on. Let me wind up the old cradle. Go ahead. You talked way longer than me. I don't I didn't even do this. I was probably sitting there. I brought it home, Nathaniel. I'm the closer. Yeah.

Not right. What did you say? Nicholas Thomas. Right? Nicholas Thomas. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. Fire up your second point. Which will inevitably lead into your third point. No. I won't have any additional points. There are only two there are only two. He's a nerd. I'm gonna tell you something else. So the so the only other thing about that one is there is a bent to it. There's a theological bent to it. And I think you should just be just be wise to that. I I think the risk of looking at failed humans

is that it's so easy to attach everything to that failure and say, look, this was all awful. And, I don't think that's the case. I I think, like, from a Mars Hill perspective as an example, holding men up to the notion of, hey, you can't just coast through life being a burden upon society, your wife, being a poor leader to your children, and absent in your church. Yeah. I think men should be called to account on that. And I think the the notion of some of that podcast bears it out. Like, there were men whose lives changed because someone actually called them to something and said, hey, you're you were created for more than what you're being. And I think that's fine. I I don't particularly have a problem with that. But there's a lot of stuff that, that they played in the podcast and some of the clips and stuff where,

I don't have I don't know that I have a problem with the words of the broad content. I have a problem with how it was said. I don't it's not a it's not a loving position. It's not basically, if Jesus were to come and talk about same thing, don't think he's saying it the same way. They played very dramatic music when they said it. They did do that. To to to try to infer to you that it was wrong. Well, yes. They did. And so, like, there's some manipulation in there. I don't agree with all the theology of Mars Hill. Like, obviously, not a reformed guy. We've talked about that, like, was a show. We're just generally not that's not where we're at. And so, like, they they took some positions, and it got worse, I think, about halfway through the podcast, and it's kind of been a little a little bit more bent, like, last three, four episodes. They're still good, but, like, it's just like reading any bible translation or especially study bibles. You just gotta know what you're walking into. The ESV study bible is is more reformed commentary. Just know that.

I'd be careful with the message. Like we talked about, I think the Psalms are good. Anything else, like, just be careful. Double check this stuff. It bends a little loose in some of their some of the way that they phrase some of the language. Okay? So I would just say that. It's not, it's not neutral ground, and it doesn't have to be. But most of anything that's not scripture is inherently gonna have some kind of human in it. And just just know that walking into it's got a bend to it. Alright.

Now, you will listen to Life for the Path. Now that we told it's been a whole whole bunch of time telling you to listen to some other podcast. I I've not I've not even heard one bit of it, so I couldn't say much. You should do it, Dan. It's kinda grabbing. I think I will. It's a grabber. Hey. So I I thought this was interesting. I have a big I'm gonna read a little bit of this, and then I'm ask I'm gonna ask the

the first question that came to my mind and then continues to stick there. This is from, Christianity Today. The title of the article is what Jesus wept means for manhood. Conversations in the public square of late have ranged from biblical masculinity to gender roles in the church. We need these debates, and I'm a willing participant in those arguments. But for me, the topics have a personal connection to memories about tears, both my own and the tears of Jesus. I was 12 years old and my paternal grandfather died. And when I stood in front of his coffin, I received a memorable, but as I now see a toxic lesson of what it means to be masculine Christian. Our extended family was gathered at the funeral home the evening before the day of the memorial service, and my parents encouraged me to approach the coffin to say your goodbyes to grandpa. When I did so, I started to sob. Then I felt a hand on my shoulder, that strong grip of a favorite uncle who was a construction worker. He leaned over and said softly in my ear, chin up, soldier.

Men don't cry. And so I guess my question is the the first thing I thought of when I saw this article is, like, is this is this pervasive still? Like, are we do you know like, from your relationships with other men in the church, within your families, like, is this is this a pervasive thing? I don't think so. No. I wouldn't say so. Nathaniel?

Yeah. I don't I don't think so. Are you gonna die over there? I might keep an eye on him. I don't know. I think he's on the opium. He's acting real squirrely today. Yeah. Doing good. Yeah. He's doing I mean, I I don't weep very often, but I'm also not being told by other people not to weep. So. I mean, I weep at funerals. I weep during a worship tune. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how to deal with weeping. People weeping. Like the other day,

during the prayer room, you know, my younger sister, who's 15 Yeah. Who I love dearly. She's weeping. Mhmm. I don't know how to take it in. I don't know what to do. You're kinda like an awkward there there type of No. Type I don't even know You don't even know what to do. I can't even do my wife, who I love, you know, she weeps to me. I I say I don't know. I that. Can't do that. Well,

you don't say. Okay. Exactly. Alright. Put that on the list, Nathaniel. We gotta work on that. That's that's rough. I usually go with a I go with a a quick pat on the back, and I tend not to say anything. Yeah. It's kinda all I do too. Yeah. There's there's no real I mean, it's like, oh, I see you're weeping. Yeah. I mean, unless you just wanna just crank them out too. You're like, you know what? I'll fire up with you.

I yeah. I don't think You know what I should do? No. I Should I should I weep with them? No. Well, you don't produce actual weepage. They would be it would be phony. Oh. Phony weeps. Think because I feel like if I thought about it for long enough, I could weep with them. I don't think you have to say anything. I think it's okay just to just assume it's the right relationship you have with whoever this is. I think it's okay to just put a hand on a shoulder or a back and, and just not say anything.

It's just an acknowledgment that says, hey, man. I I recognize you're going through rough. I don't wanna I don't wanna, mock you by trying to either fake cry along with you or or give some sort of advice. Like, yeah. I think that's alright. But I I guess that's what struck me about the article is that this seems like something

I just feel like we're past. Maybe we're not. Maybe it's it's it's with the area of the country we live or the type of people that surrounded with or families we have or whatever. I just was surprised that this was a front page article somewhere. Like, are we still gruffing our way through life like this in Christian circles? I'd say certainly not in Christian circles. I mean, I suppose a funeral. Know. I It depends on what you know, the uncle's past, where it came from. I mean, never knew that dude. I'd be for the time it had happened, he probably was he probably went through a war. Right? Like and and and you just you you can't be

you just ain't got time for that in his mind. Right? It is what it is. Facts are facts. We're moving on. You know? And and I realized that that the word toxic's a little strong. But, like, to some extent, there's a lot of folks out there that had something happened to them and they they allowed it to define their whole life from here on out. Right? Like their grandpa died when they were seven and now they're perpetually broken

until they're 70. Right? Because the thing happened and they're like they, you know, they but they went through a marriage and it didn't go very well. And they ended up in a divorce and and their their spouse cheated on them and they're like, oh, I've been cheated upon. My whole world is done. My the rest of my life is tainted with with this thing. Not to say that you can't take information in, but like there is a there is something about allowing an emotion to run your whole life. I think you can squeeze a couple tears out for your grandpa on the on the the day of his funeral. That doesn't seem like it's over the top at all. Yeah. Well, I mean, was interesting to me is that, like, that story, he says that image of the Christian man as a warrior facing the challenge of life bravely and without tears stayed with me. He didn't say anything about it being like, Jesus doesn't want you to cry. He just said men don't cry. It's a it's a thought of a it's a masculine issue. I'm just not sure it's a Christian masculine issue. Yeah. I mean I mean, I I probably got all kinds of advice from some misguided dudes as I grow up. I I mean, I gotta carry it around for all my days and then come back when I'm 45 and go, I can't believe, Bill, that you led me astray when I was eight. I mean,

who's got time to be thinking about this kind of stuff? It just seems like a really small thing. And if you know better now, then are you working on a functional different set of of rules that you've learned better over the last forty years that you can go compartmentalize your uncle and go, hey, man. It was the kind of character he was. He was wrong. You know, he probably shouldn't have said that, but he did, and I know why he did. And have some grace for it and let it go. I mean, it seems like an odd thing to be carrying around your whole the whole days. So he he continues. This is really I I people get paid by the by the word. Right?

Because this is a really long article. Like, this is a hey. Is it okay to men to cry? Sure. Jesus wept over his friend dying. So, yeah, this was fine. This was never not a problem, actually. But he's he so he he goes and talks about it for a long time. And then he says, some might push back. Yes. It is okay for men to cry, but there are elements of the call for men to be masculine that we need to preserve. There are times when it's crucial for the health of the Christian community when men need to show some spine in their leadership. It's not all about gentle Jesus. My response to that is to the degree that men need to show that firmness, so do women. Gentleness and boldness are not gendered callings. Of course, the savior modeled courage and strength well. He reprimanded people. But in discussing these aspects of ministry, we should look at that at the context. Okay. What the heck are you even talking about? I I don't I want a fireman to show up at my house when it's on fire, I and want them to boldly go in here and put that fire out. Right? I don't want them fall into a puddle of nothing on the street. I don't care if it's a dude or a lady. Whatever person has come up to handle a a beefy situation, yeah, you need to stand up and go do it. Yeah. That seems reasonable to me. And so I I feel like he's attacking a thought process or a lofty pipe smoking conversation that's not actually happening. Yeah. I guess, like, the question is is it, like, I wonder how often from as in a as a Christian community, we are continuing to defend ourselves against things that someone said some other point or another.

Like, hey, we think the outside world thinks this about Christians. Because, like, to Mike's point, if you if you listen to people who are talking about either deconstructing in their faith or I'm just gonna say, like, just be gracious with me here, but, like, more liberal Christianity stuff. Like, they seem to always been fighting against a a perception of the church that I just am not seeing. And it could be my own box, but, like,

how much of this stuff is happening? Is it real like, do do do this guy this is a long article. Like, I bet this is 10 book pages. Yeah. There I mean, no doubt there's some dudes out there that are like, I'm the head of this household or blah blah blah. Right? They exist, but like, I would say most of the dudes I know who are faithfully following Jesus, they humbly submit to their wife running the household, and they're doing their best to support it and and help it go well and are trying to to tick all these boxes of of supporting their wife and raising their family and being a good honest worker. And, like, they're really hustling their tail off to try to get some of this stuff done, and they're still paying for the sins of some dude you read about on the Internet

who who is some kind of patriarchal jerk. And so, like, it seems it seems like a really, really broad brush. I I mean, are there are there is this more likely to happen in certain sects of Christianity? Right? Like, I don't know. You can't say sex on here. Sexs. We don't do the sex. Parts, do you mean? Yeah. Parts. Yeah.

Sections. Would that be better? Yeah. Abbednego. Well, yeah. I'll be whatever. It it probably does. Like, there's probably behaviors that are prone to certain either, like, fringy denominations or parts of the country

or age groups or something. I mean, probably. And maybe we're just I'm not getting the blend. Well, I here's the thing where I think perception starts to be a problem is and and it, of course, comes with the speed and frequency of which we're taking in information, by the way it's delivered anymore. Right? But, like, we were just talking about the the podcast, about the Mars Hill thing, and they said, like, in the same week, Bill Hybels came out with a misconduct

charge and so did Zacharias. Ravi Zacharias. Right? And they're like, man, everybody's just this whole thing's falling around. I'm like, two people falling. Two. Right? And now maybe they had big churches or whatever, but like that's two out of the there's 8,000,000,000 people on earth. Let's say half of them are are Christ followers. And I think our numbers are actually a hair better than that, but we'll say half. So out of the 4,000,000,000 people who claim Jesus is Lord, two of them had a rough week and did some really disgusting things. True. The whole castle ain't fallen. Right? Like, you find an example and then you start blowing a horn real loud, and then all of a sudden we got everybody's up in arms over a thing that's not actually true. Right? Yeah. These dudes had a moral failure. And yes, it needs to be repented of. And yes, Jesus needs to deal with them. Everybody's in agreement on how this needs to get handled. Right? But like the entire structure of of the church is not falling apart. And and the same thing is true with some of these things that like, I I I have a couple people,

especially on my social media feed that like, the patriarchal system of the Christian home is horrible. I'm like, have you read the Bible? Have you read the load that that God puts on man? It's heavy. It's heavy and on purpose. And he's he's applied the exact same style of load on woman just in a different attitude and a a different strength of the thing of what he what he's built them for. And like, we wanna be like the dude is demanding this and he's horrible. I'm like, these are not the dudes I'm running into. Like, seriously, I've I've I know a lot of good Christian husbands and this is not their behavior.

So it it's kinda hard to take in after a while that we're fighting things that don't exist in any of the circles that I run-in. Yeah. I I guess that yeah. That's the broad point is that, like, I I we should be careful about our postures of apologies of things that aren't particularly happening or not happening extensively. Because if you were if you were a non Christian, you go to the front page of Christianity Day, you're under the impression that That's systemic. That's right. We're having a guys can't weep problem. I'm like, I just don't know anybody who's having this problem. Yeah. Maybe I need to know more people. Maybe you're a weeper. Call call the complaint line. Let me know if you in fact, can cry in the complaint line if you want to. (515) 517-0085.

Now hey. Look. I'm okay to be wrong here or have my my view of the world expanded or deepened. Okay? So, like, if this is happening, I guess I'd like to know about it. I but, like and I mean, from a Christian perspective, not you've got some kinda kinda hardy boy of an uncle who just thinks men in general don't weep. I mean, like, it's reinforced by the your the the Christianity you're being taught. That's what that's what I'm concerned with. I'm not concerned with dudes in general. I'm asking you, does does what you're being taught by your by your pastor or in your churches or your study material

or whatever online thing you read that says, look, Christian dudes don't cry. Because I'm not missing it. It's not even a biblical principle like David weeps. Jesus weeps. Yeah. I mean, there's people weeping all over the place. David is the most effeminate man you've ever come across. He's dancing in the streets, barely keeping clothes on. Yeah. Well, he's also And he's the most masculine dude you've ever run into. Correct. I mean, he's just he's out there battling people, destroying armies, killing dudes. I mean, stealing stuff from people while they're pooping. I mean, this is all boys stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Like, I just there there isn't it's a very shallow reading of the scriptures to to to come to this type of Here's the thing. It's what it is is it's it's a it's a pull yourself up by your bootstraps. It's an American thing. Political thing. Yeah. Right? Even even European thing. Right? We'll just put it like it's it's a political system that that looks at men like this. And so I think you are you're just pointing the finger in the wrong area. Right? We also we happen to be, especially

in in democratic societies, we tend to have these thought processes on on how how men are supposed to act. And like, we were mostly a Christian nation or or or, you know, at least pretend to be. And so like, I think it's coming with the political system, not the faith part. Like, I think it's coming from the political part. And so you you just got your finger up in the air. And frankly, as Christians, I'm willing to let this go. I don't care if a dude's over there crying at his grandpa's funeral. Don't care if I have a hard time with the dude's like, hey, I can't find my iPad. You know, if he's over there weeping it up, I'm like, look, man, you gotta pull yourself together. We ask a lot out of these firefighters, and you're over here falling apart over the iPad. I mean, I, you know, I think there's better things to spend your time on. But like, but still, the Aldi's was out of Bartlett Pears. I just wanted Bartlett's. I got there and the sale on the avocados was over. Okay. Now listen. I'll pull it together. My quarter's stuck in the return cart machine. I just want this quarterback.

You know, like that kind of stuff, you know, maybe that comes off as harsh and people should be free to live their lives as a weep or over the cart situation. You are, but I don't appreciate it. I you're holding the world back. Yeah. I mean, we once again, it's like, it seems really unfair because we go, that guy should have the freedom to cry. And and maybe he should. But you should also feel some level of responsibility where there's out there's people out there pulling their own weight, and you get to fall apart in the in the parking lot of the Aldis about the iPad or the cart. And, like, we're asking police officers to stand in front of dangerous people that we just wanna pull over. You know, something or, like, you know, there's there's there's people out there doing hard things that nobody wants to do. Right? You think there's anybody that's like, I can't wait till the day when I finally get to be, an embalmer, you know, that I gotta deal with all these dead, but like I just love it. It's a job that has to get done and it takes a little steel to do it. And so, like, I I think it's really unfair to push people off and go, we don't consider you important enough so you get to fall apart in the parking lot. It is we consider you important enough. We need you to join society and be part of what's happening here. Well, yeah. Because, like, if you think about it, it's a it's a lack of oh, this is gonna come across harsh.

It's a lack of community. Right? Like, community, we say we like, hey, we're all in this to if you just think about it as a community, you say, hey, look, we're all in this together. And then that guy at that point in time goes, yes, but not me. I'm in it for me. Yeah. And I'm I I don't have to pull my own weight. I don't have to try to show up and support everyone else. I want you fact, I want you guys to stop and everyone focus on me. It's kinda selfish. And, like, I get that that's not universal, and I'm not this isn't about you crying at your your grandpa's funeral. No. It's not. I mean, just it's in general, it just like, there's a reason, like, it's not just about you. I guess that's the broad point. Is that, like, it's again, it's too narrow of a focus on whether you get to let your life fall apart and you get to weep over to pairs. I mean, no one's got time for this. You're gonna drag someone out of their the rest of their day to draw attention to yourself because your pairs aren't in. Yeah. Or whatever other thing is going on. Like, yeah, you just gotta buck it up. Let so that other people can go about their business. I was I was reading an article on they were they were recapping last year, and it was the year to the COVID.

Yeah. And they call it the year of the do it yourselfer. Because of all the stuff that people had to tackle on their own that they wouldn't normally tackle because they wouldn't let a service man in their house or lady and whatever. And I've read in the article, like, maybe you had to fix your own fence. You know, maybe you may had to cut your own grass or maybe you had to come up with new recipes on your own because you couldn't go out to eat. I'm like, this is all standard fare of stuff people used to do a hundred years ago. Right? Everybody fix their own fence. Everybody made their own meals and everybody cuts their own grass. And so like the do it yourselfer, it basically means we acted like we used to, where people used to actually take care of their own stuff all the time. Yeah. And, like, it was it was a really weird article because we were celebrating

the the the the American spirit of of where we were getting back to. Like, we were doing this all on our own in our can do attitude. And I'm like, we gave all that up. Like, we had it, and then we gave it away. And then we reclaimed it and act like we found gold again. Like, everybody used to know how to mend their own fence. Everybody painted their own house. Everybody milked their own cow. Everybody used to do this regular stuff. And then somehow we got we just we drifted away from it. And then one year of a disease and we're like, man, I was back to fixing my own squeaky table. I can't I found a ranch or whatever and I turned it and it took that squeak right out. And like, this I mean, I I think we should be excited that maybe the homesteading thought is coming back into you, but the celebratory nature of something that is fairly innate seems way overblown. Yeah. Right? Someone took a drama gun and just started pumping it up and going, boy, we're really something. I remember thinking about that. The kids would read the Little House on the Prairie books. And, like, everybody knew how to build a house. Like, everyone went out there and they were building their own place. And, like, and and the ladies in the books were always just confident. Yeah. He just knows how to build a place. He knows how to build a stable. He knows how to take care of the horses. And I'm like, these are well rounded fellas who you could stick out in the middle of somewhere and go, yeah. I just I'll put a house together. We'll figure this out. And, like,

we're in a state now where some guy look at a hole in his drywall and go, yeah. I just Yeah. I have no idea. Just put them have to look that up on the YouTube. Yeah. I have to put the bureau in front of it until we get this handled. And here's the thing, because I I think YouTube's great for that as much as I have a pain for technology. YouTube is awesome for learning how to do stuff that you don't know how to do. And I think you should take full advantage of that. Yeah. And put some put some hands to tools and and some ideas and thoughts. I encourage my kids to do that crap all the time. My dad was making fun of me. For what? For using the YouTube. So you kids can't figure out anything without the YouTube. Well, I mean, if if I wanted to struggle for three days and not fix anything, then I would emulate what you're doing. But otherwise, there's a guy on YouTube that's got this figured out. I mean, there are advances in especially the way that we share information. Like, you'd be foolish not to take it in. Like having a library next to your house and never going in there to check out how to woodwork book. And then you're over there like a stubborn ox trying to build a table without asking nobody. I mean, that's just dumb. Yeah. And frankly, all the skills that got passed down from to folks a hundred years ago, your old man didn't pass down to you. Right? Like, there's there's other stuff in life going on. They he wasn't actually had you in his table workshop building tables for ten years. That's what happened. It's not really like, don't blame so much of the current generation, but, like, there was a break from, like, 1960 on where, like, they're just well, why would I pass that down? We can just go buy the thing. Yeah. And then I I mean, I don't think my dad listens to the show, but, like, mean, he passed on no discernible skills. Yeah. My father. Yeah. He didn't own if he owned he's got a drawer full of screwdrivers. I'm not sure I ever saw him use it once. I never saw him do any car work on his own. Like, never. I not even put air in his tires. I I I

don't think I I don't think I ever saw that. I never It's tires saw him done. I never saw him use a grill until after we stopped going over to his house. Like, Mike and I were probably 20 before I even saw him grill food. It was and it was just unique. It was a very like, and I had no idea. And then, like, I think Mike and I both ran into stepdads or fathers in law. Yeah. Fathers in law who, like, were were, like, used the screwdriver. They had, like, sets of things, multiple sizes of screwdrivers, and, like, were fixing all their own stuff. And boy, I mean, we looked ridiculous Yeah. Showing up to these places. Like, hey, you ever change the brake brake line out? I'm like, yeah.

I didn't. What is it again? Yeah. Where? I put I put tires on backwards. Like, think maybe a month after I met my father-in-law. Like, I for for some reason, I had, like, these nineteen fifties movies thought where where the white the white goes out, you know, so you have this cool looking fifties car. And, boy, I struggled putting this tire on for, like, twenty minutes because I insisted the white part had to go out. Turns out on this car,

it was just a two sided tire. The white goes in. And he sat there and watched me struggle with that for forty five And then my mother-in-law comes in and goes, the white side goes in, Mike. I'm like, dang it. He watched me do this for forty five minutes. Smoke four cigarettes, drank a beer, and said, watch me act like a fool for forty five minutes. The patience of this man is is amazing. And like, I learned a ton from that guy. Right? Like, wouldn't know half the stuff I know. Yeah. And he'd let me sit there and hustle it out for forty five minutes to look like a fool until until her mom came in and told me it did any different. It was awesome. Dan, do you feel like you're you feel like you got to, like when you think of traditional manly skills, do you feel like your dad gave you any of that? No. No. He didn't have it. No. He wasn't around. Oh. Well, okay. Well, then what if that's double fail. Yeah. Well, what about, like, uncles or anything? No. They they live too far away. They were like farmer guys. They were like the the picture of masculinity in my mind, but I didn't I'd see them, like, twenty minutes of a year, you know? Yeah. So yeah. No. Okay. I get all my masculinity from my mom. And do you and do you feel like She taught me how to grow a mustache. That's right. Thanks, mama. Here's the thing. I had strong ladies do it.

Strong ladies do it. Hey. So interesting. Oh, we'll finish out this article. So he says, this was the context. He said, very often, the tough talk of Jesus was against male religious leaders who were committed to abusive forms of leadership. Now, here's the thing. You're skewing it. They're all dudes. It's not like he ignored ladies. They just all the leaders happened to be men. And so what you're trying to provide as context is actually like, I I it's skewing it a bit. It's Jesus was against forms of it's not even abusive leadership, really. It's unfaithful leadership.

It's people getting caught up, like, narrowly for what felt like human kingdom stuff, and abuse of their own well, I see, I don't like the name of abuse, but, like, it's it's asserting their own power and influence over people improperly. May I maybe you can call that abuse, but, like, I just like, when you highlight male, I think you're trying to it skews the story a bit, because there were no ladies in those in those leadership times. So, like, you could have just said leadership. It's the same. I just feel like he's he's tilting the story a bit. Mhmm. But to make the case that it's it's a masculine problem. I think it's a leadership problem. I think I think there's lady leaders who have the same bent, who are, like, who have the same risk of leading for human in religious context for human aims.

Women are not exempt from that. So I anyway, back to my uncle. He did not live his adult life as a person of faith. Oh, this whole thing was credited as if he was a Christian male problem. He wasn't a Christian. In the final months, though, a cousin visited him. He was now a weak and lonely man. In that visit, my cousin asked him if he would like to pray and asked Jesus to embrace him in love. My uncle said that he would, and they prayed together. When my cousin told me that story, I wept tears of joy. Okay. That really tied up. I mean, what are we this is gonna sound terrible and really callous, but, like, what are we spending our time thinking about, fellas? I mean, your non Christian uncle

told you a non Christian idiom of how to behave. You let it impact your whole life. You got to know Jesus towards the end, is great, and you tied it up with a nice I wept bow. I mean, what are you trying to get to going public to to to learn from this? It's okay to weep as a man. I mean, you can just say that in two sentences. Like, knew that. Jesus said that I I wept. In fact, multiple people in the Bible wept. And, like, that's an odd thing to even include.

You know what I'm saying? Like like, think of John tells us that there's a bunch of stories of Jesus that didn't make it in. I wept was in there. It must be kind of important. Again, some of the notions of of when we say, like, David cries out, like, these are laments. These are like the prophets too. Like, I I just I don't know how you could have possibly read scripture and not come away with. It's alright to live the full suite of emotions that the lord has given you. And so, like, hey. Yeah. Right. Like, that's the whole point. Hey. Someone who's not a Christian told me something unbiblical, unbiblical, and I let it dominate my life. Okay. Well, stop doing that. Yeah. Maybe, you know, get some better advice. Read the scriptures first. Run it through, mister Berean. Yeah. Get some friends who would be like, hey, man. You gotta let this go. Can I can I cry at my grandpa's funeral? Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. David said he filled his couch with tears. Yeah. That's a lot of tears. That's yeah. To fill a couch. Tear couch. That's that's And he's at a king's couch. It's not no little man couch. Mean, it's a king's couch. Yeah. I mean, just yeah. I mean and and I guess that's the thing is that, like, this guy painted it like we have a Christian culture problem.

Do we? I don't know. No. It doesn't look like it. I was speaking of Christian culture, something that I thought was ubiquitous. Everybody did this. And apparently, Everidge is not. It's just like in Christian circles, maybe. I don't know. I was telling a guy that I work with that my wife was bringing some lady who just had a baby a lasagna.

Mhmm. And he said, What are you talking about? Why is she bringing her a lasagna? And I've I've grown up in church my whole life. Right. I thought this was just a thing that I Yeah. This just makes perfect sense. You People have want Tuesday, you want Wednesday, you want Thursday. Yeah. And apparently, he was unaware. And I talked to several other people. And they were also like, yeah, I don't know what you're talking about. And then I talked to the guy who,

also goes to church, and he's like, yeah. And you show up and you clean the lady's house and you have time out to check up on her. I was like, I did not realize that this was just a a church thing. Actually, I guess I didn't either. I just assumed everybody, as soon as you had a baby, people were like, we gotta get some meals for these people. Yeah. Was what I thought. Through the years that people were, like, quite shocked if we, like, hey, can we bring your food? They're like, well, I guess. And then we bring them food. They're like, woah. This is crazy. Yeah. Yeah. They're impressed with them. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, yeah. But, you know, it's not even it's just a baby. You have it like an operation or something that happens. He's like, man, I'm gonna come over to your church with the cast on and get some free stuff. And we'll give it to you. Said Here's the thing. It's like, we got this thing whooped by now. We deliver pans that you can throw away. We bring silverware with us. You know, because we don't want you to be washing a bunch of dishes on our behalf. Yeah. I mean, we got this thing figured out. Yeah. If if that's the thing that gets you in the door, you feel like these Christians will give you free stuff and take care of you. Hey. Yeah. Show up. Do you want you want me to bake we should bake some, like, carrot cake or whatever and say, hey, I kinda mentioned that you I had a friend who was in a cast kinda half joking around, and these good fellas showed up and said, hey, we should take this to this guy. Yeah.

Yeah. He wants to take advantage. We're gonna give it away. Yeah. Yeah. We will. Okay. People can't steal from you what you give away. Hey. You've been listening to Life in the Path. We do appreciate you hanging out with us today. We've said a number of potentially offensive things to you. If it once you get done crying about it, you can give us a call or text (515) 517-0085. That's (515) 517-0085.

I think it's funny. We just got done talking about the risks of some of the domineering and teaching of of Mark Driscoll to Marth Hill. And then we ended up with, hey, just buck it up, Charlie. It's okay to it's okay to weep, but you also don't be a burden on people around you. I I stayed by it. I'm I'm sure. I I I'm only apprehensive on that conversation because I feel like I'll say it in too strong of a way and people will be offended. Yeah. But, like, it's not unreasonable to ask you to be part of a society. You're in a society. Right? That that's just the truth. Right? You're part of a community of people. Yeah. And, like, most people aren't coming after you because they're they hate you or disappointed in you. They're coming after you because they see more in you than you see and go, look. You just don't have time to live a joy filled

life by crying in in Aldi's parking lot. I'm just telling you, people with a joy filled life don't do that. So let's emulate people that do, and let's get up and and and move on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Go ahead, Mike. Dear life from the path, my husband and I disagree about our arrangements after we pass away. Mhmm. I would like to be cremated and scattered at a location with wonderful memories, like where we honeymooned. He wants a full funeral and to be buried in our hometown two and a half hours away, where we have been living for almost twenty years. What a scandal. I don't have a lot of love for our hometown, and I'm estranged from my family. When I asked why he would want to be buried there, he joked that his kids won't come to visit him wherever he is, so at least his high school buddies can come to the cemetery, drink a beer, toast him. I do not want to waver from being cremated.

I feel the land is for the living, but I also worry it would be regarded as odd not to be in the same plot. Now I joke that I hope I die first because I don't wanna have to honor his wishes. Wishes. It's not a joking matter, though, and I appreciate advice about our disagreement. No. I I this feels like a joking matter to me. Yeah. I'm sorry. You would've got me dead. I mean, yeah. The the main your main point was is I feel like people would find it odd that I was not buried in the same plot as my husband. I mean, who they gonna tell that to? You're not even around to be offended by their offense. And they're not coming to visit anyway. So Yeah. You didn't say they're not coming? Like, I I I it would matter to me more if, like, if my kids or something felt strongly

that they would wanna go visit a graveside. Like, it's irrelevant to me. I don't want them to have to pass my around and swap it out every, like, fourth of July. Alright. You get dead this year. That seems awkward. Yeah. So, like, I mean, I'm more open to whatever they think, but I past that, I don't it's not you I don't know what being estranged from your family has to do with it. Yep. Now they're not coming anyway. A hundred years ago, you used to bury people at your own house. Now you can't do that. Gotta put them in a public cemetery. I think, hey, there's somebody by my house with a gravestone on it. And what I it occurred to me just within the last month that, like, maybe the body's not actually there. Maybe they just bought a headstone and put it on the they got, like, a a cardened off graveyard and everything. Yeah. But just with one grave in it. I bet it is. I I got some friends who did that, like, just like in the last five years. I can't remember when it was. Grandpa died and took him to their farm, and they have their own little graveyard there, and they hand dug the grave, and they buried him. Yeah. Like, I didn't know you could do that. Yeah. Do you just gotta get well, actually, I guess I did know know that, because it depends on where you're at. You may have to at least record it. Oh. And tell them that it that, like, that there's a body there, so that it doesn't freak people out later on. Right. But like, there's all there's certain things that we feel like are part of the process that you don't actually have to do. Like, if you're if someone dies let's just go with a natural death. You got your your grandpa or something in your at his house and he passes away, like, you don't have to call the coroner.

Like, they don't have to come pick up the body, like, right away. You could you you could have a body in your house. Now it runs some risks of what people are like, how long has this been in here? Yeah. But, like, there's there's people where, like, they just I know we sometimes you don't get time to process stuff, because you're like, well, what are we supposed to do? What we call authorities? What authorities do? They come take it away. And, like, there is some processing that some people that some this is for some people. Some people, it's This is not they don't wanna have anything to do with it. But, like, it's just things that we feel like, oh, that's what you have to do. But real I mean, you could. You say, hey, the guy died. We're gonna he's we're gonna But you can't transport him yourself. You can. Yeah. Yeah. The, the we in college, they had a,

a guy I don't know. It was like a, a class about, like, the inner workings of of church leadership or whatever. And this is some guy showed up from a local church, he's like, Yeah. So when I go over, you know, the funeral process with people, I just wanna let them know all these things. So, you know, because the the the funeral industry is such like a high dollar industry. If they wanna save some coin,

here's some options for them. I like this Missouri pastor down here. Here's how you do it on the trunk. Exactly. He's like, you know, if they pass away, you don't actually have to call anybody. You can just load them up in the Buick and and take them on down to to the to the funeral home if you feel like it. Really? Yeah. I'm gonna make sure these things are explicit. I mean, I need to check the Iowa law, but like, hey, kids. You put me in the Buick. Yeah. Do not spend a dime on it. I wanna sit in the front

Buckle me in. You weekend at Bernie's me. I'm alright with it. And don't take any fast turns. Otherwise, it's be real awkward for a bit. But part pardon me. Yeah. Maybe whipped out the like, he had a a grind. I can't remember. And he's like, he he had a, like, a angle grinder there. And he's like, you know what's gonna happen? And he turned on, and I was like, what is going on? Boy, now I'm less hesitant. I'm I'm a little bit more hesitant to follow his directions. Yeah. We're gonna have to look up some laws. Yeah. Okay. Back to this lady's problem. You and your husband disagree on burial. I mean, I feel like I wouldn't fight my wife if she wanted to get buried. I think I would if I was the remaining spouse and that's what she asked for,

whatever. Well, but but but she wants to get cremated. Right? It's the opposite. Like, I'd like that is I don't know. This is probably not right. But like, it seems just it's more destructive. Like, the less destructive path seems like a path of compromise. Oh, to just go ahead and say, well, I guess I'll I guess I'll be buried next to you. Yeah. Like, guess I don't understand why you would be ardently against it.

I don't know why you carried away. Yeah. Yeah. My I mean, my decision, frankly, is made based on financial reasons and not having to burden my kids with some ridiculous funeral or ridiculous burial. Right? The funeral, go ahead, spend some money, have some good food there, and do whatever you want. But, like, the actual burial portion, the the nuts and bolts of it, I you know? How many people go and visit gravestones anymore? That feels like a real old people thing to do. Yeah. It feels like an old people thing to I don't know. Like, I like, I suppose I guess we used to do it, but I mean, I haven't done it for probably ten, fifteen years, I guess. Yeah. I'll go, like, on Memorial Day to, like, the Veterans Cemetery. My dad happens to be there. But then I feel bad. It's like my mom's across town. I don't go visit the mean, I'm Oh, right. I'm not really doing it to visit dad. I'm doing like, okay, it's a it's a veteran thing. Right. Under the vets. Then I yeah. So I don't I don't know. Yeah.

I I think it's less common than it used to be. Yeah. I I I mean, there's not a biblical principle here. Yeah. So I mean, bury or don't bury or cremate, don't I I suppose I mean, if unless it's a financial matter to you, I mean, agree to get buried next to them. I don't care. I mean, what does it matter? That's kind of a big a big thing like the previous generation before me, there was a lot of people who thought maybe cremation was anti biblical. Oh, yeah. The pagans do that, you know, and Yeah. You're sacrificing a body. It's like, I don't really think that's the intent, you know? No. There's power in the blood. And when you're dead, there ain't no blood. Done. Commentary one time, some guy arguing for anti

cremation, and he's like, well, how are you supposed to get a new body? Yeah. Yeah. This is his argument. The Lord's caught in a caveat, but you burned the body. Now what do I do? Way to think, Nathaniel. That would be weird. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't agreeing with the I didn't write the commentary. Right. The Lord goes, I formed man out of dust, but now they've turned themselves back into dust, and I my hands are tied. Yeah. I did. I've been caught. Oh oh, wait. I said to dust that, well, no. Shoot. Now I'm really in a conundrum. What's the thing about, you know, bodies that have been sitting around for a hot minute Right. Or not cremated. Or guys who fell into a volcano. Like, how

about the dude that is eaten by cannibals, and and your your stew, and you've been eaten by a whole village, then one of them gets eaten by a shark, and now it's been pooped all over the ocean, and it's like, you're everywhere. It's like, what what happens then? Boy, what a turn of events. Sorry. Sorry about that. It's like the woman in the shoe. I'm just saying. Whose body gets resurrected? Yeah. That's right. The jurors of the cannibals. This is a this is the this is that pharisee question on who's who's she gonna be married to. Yeah. I it I think you're if it really doesn't matter to you, let's say, like It does matter to She wants to get cremated on principle that the land is for the living. You will eventually be dust in a coffin anyway. The wood will eventually rot. You're just you're literally just saying it's gonna take longer, and he's going for the

or you're saying you want the instant. I wanna be dust right now. He wants the fifty year process. Okay. Now hold on, though. Like, her frame of mind is basically saying ice belongs back in the ocean. I mean, you gonna your one woman crusade on this is gonna do any good? Because cemeteries already exist. Yeah. The space is already there. Right. Right. It's not like they're having to dig fresh earth for you away from the national park. Right? Like, the cemetery is already there. That's right. Move the move the oil pipeline. Gretchen needs a place to be buried.

Yeah. I think either one of you one of you should just bend. This is marriage, friend. Somebody's gonna have to go. I'll just do what you're doing. The one who is least attached to the problem. Yeah. My buddies can come by and toast me and drink a beer. Like, I don't give a crap about this. He's just being hard to get along with. Yeah. He's just a feisty old man in his long johns. I don't know. Dan, what what are what are your plans? Are you what do you think? Are you gonna cremate?

You know, I I've always I've always in the last twenty years have ever said cremation just because it's cheaper. And and I don't know. Lately, I've kinda thought, maybe I don't want to. I think my wife wants to cremate me. She wants to watch me burn. That's different. There's something cathartic about it. Yeah. Actually,

don't think she wants to be involved. But I don't I don't even know why. I can't even say why lately. I've just been like, I don't know. I I I mean, ultimately, I don't care. You know you know, but but I I be around, you know? Would you still are you still playing on a headstone or something?

Probably some simple little thing. Any anymore, you can't just get the big monsters unless you're in a special area Yeah. That cost more. So it's like, yeah, we'll have some little thing on you walk on, you step on it and go, oh, I guess someone's there. Sorry, Dan. Oops. That happened. Is that shark poop? Shoot. That's another guy. How much does a mausoleum cost? Oh, bet mausoleums are gotta be $20. Wouldn't you figure? Oh, like the big single one? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I bet they're pretty Can you can you dig catacombs in your own place and use it as a crypt? That'd be cool.

I have a little bit of land. I are are all cemeteries public? Can you have a private cemetery? There's lot of cemeteries where you're only if you're a Jew, you can you can be buried there? I mean, could I could I, like, section off a couple acres of my land and say it's my private cemetery?

And then people pay me to bury people there? Yeah. That wouldn't bother me one way. You basically wanna be a cemetery owner. That's what you're saying. Yeah. Is it wrong to profit off other people's death? They're gonna buy it anyway. Right? And they're waiting on the town to come by and weed whack it. I'll weed whack it with care. I don't know. Yeah. I don't want no cut cut cut rate funeral services. Well, Michael will take care of this. The the cemetery's hired lawn landscaping companies. Oh, yeah. Okay. That's true. Alright. So we have no advice then. Somebody's gotta bend here.

Yeah. Well, yeah. I guess, for for because she's the one that wrote the letter, my advice is you gotta bend. Yeah. Like, what do you care? Or or Splitsky's. I don't I don't know if it matters. Like, just keep good, I don't think anybody's gonna be dependent upon your family history, only whether you got two grave markers next to each other. And put me you know what? Get one headstone that says so and so, both people. And then if she goes first, cremate her, and then hold on to her ashes until he dies and put it in the coffin with bang. Done and done. You both get What if he marries another lady? This could be awkward. Right. Then you got three in the tree, you know?

You know I'm saying? Yeah. I I was I was looking for that as a complication. Either way, I mean, it's What if he marries two ladies? It's a small bag. Either way, he yeah. Shit. They can bury the second wife right next to him. She's going in the coffin with him to show their everlasting love. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I think that's fine. Which apparently is is on the rocks because of the small disagreement on how two unconscious dead people might preserve like, perceive the the burial. Yeah. This is a nothing burger with a side of mayo. You gotta let that go. Okay. Here we go. The

secular advice is, your last wishes are as important as your husband's. Stop worrying about what quotes people might say if you aren't buried together. If you predecease him, make sure your last wishes are in writing and hope they will be respected. If he dies first, carry out his last wishes. If he believes his old high school buddies will make a pilgrimage to the cemetery each year to toast him, suggest he leave enough money to pay for the six packs on an annual basis and identify a cause to which it should be donated in the event they fail to show up. Hey. Yeah. Thanks for that. Make sure the cat has a fluffy bed in the corner of the living room. That's ridiculous. Yeah. I missed it. Yeah. Okay. You wanna read one more? Okay. Yeah. Do We're gonna go. Okay.

Arizona. Here we go. Dear Life from the Path. I've been seeing a wonderful man for seven months and spend every weekend with him. Too much. We live 45 miles apart, but it works for us. He has a group of friends, five ladies that he spends a lot of time with. He dated one of them for a year before he broke it off, but they remain friends. I have met the group and while they act friendly, I get a proprietary vibe from them. It makes me feel extremely uncomfortable around them and I've told them so. Am I looking for trouble where there isn't any? Should I just ignore the fact that his friends are all women? He has men friends too, but it's the girls he is closer to. How old is this dude? No. No information. You

think he's a geriatric scandal? I don't know. Yeah. I mean, I would be cautious of it. I don't know that you made it I mean, you're not certainly making things better going, hey, this feels proprietary, and I want you to know that I feel that way. Like, I don't that's not gonna help. I mean, I feel kind By proprietary, you mean exclusive? Yeah. Against the unknown? Exclusive? No. Yeah. Exclusive is probably the best word. Right? Yeah. Like like, she shows up and it feels like she's the seventh wheel. Yeah. I mean, that's his fault. That's his problem.

I mean, she's like she may feel like that anyway. Just in general, she feels it may not be them acting that way. But, like, if it's a reality, like, are actually acting that way, then, I mean, I don't know if I'd continue in the relationship. What's the forty five minutes have to do with this? Yeah. That's not very far. No. Agreed. I'm just thinking, like, in my adult life, I can't think of, like I'm trying to figure out, yeah, I hang out with seven women.

You know? I mean, like, don't have seven anybody. Yeah. Right. I just, like, hang out with all the time. I mean That's a well, yeah. Is it more concerning that they're all ladies or more concerning that he has to have such a large group of friends Yeah. Around all the time in a group. Or or is she exaggerating a little bit? It could be either. I I don't know. You you know, it's like, what what but it's just the whole story is odd to me that that he's just yeah. Yeah. Our advice you just just break off with this man. One, because either you're not suited for whatever regular situation is going on, or two, he's weird, irregular, and you're not suited for that either. Either way, I think with this opening gambit, I just don't think this is a fresh diving board to start off on. Yeah. Like, so what would you do, I guess let's ignore the fact that they're ladies, at least for now,

if if your friend group as a whole felt exclusionary to the lady that you were dating? Get rid of the friend group. Yeah.

Yes. Right? I would do. Or or like or like at least the the my interaction with the friend group would significantly decrease Yeah. Because my lady should never feel that way. Yes. Especially it's only weekends. It's like, hey, friends. We got Monday through Friday. Yeah. That's right. I mean Well, when a lady comes to town, we're going out to dinner. Weekends are for Wanda. Yeah. Yeah. So

so I don't know. He thought that three and the tree thing was funny I'm gonna I'm gonna roll over here to the right. No. So Well, you said something earlier. So I'm feeling giggly. Yeah. Yeah. So so I would say, yeah, that that this is a relationship relevant item to the extent that, like, you've said this out loud. I don't again, I'm not sure how to said it to the group. This is a this is a problem with your fella. Yeah. This you shouldn't be feeling this way. And like, if you're being hypersensitive about it, be open to the to some feedback that says you're being hypersensitive to it. But I would say that like

yeah. This this could be it shouldn't be that way. Yeah. They should feel exclusive to you. And if he's like he's Hefner over here feels like he gets to have relationships across the board because of his age, then he's the wrong guy to hook up with. Now listen, I'm this is gonna be an odd caveat for me. But like, I'm just telling you that dudes don't take in the world in a full capacity like you probably already think. And so should at least give him a chance to address it. Mhmm. I feel like if you care about him, if you feel like it's going well and you're starting a relationship, I say, look, man, I feel really out of place when I'm here and all your friends are here. And he's either gonna go, no. No. It's not a big deal at all because he's a jerk, or he's gonna go, I had no idea. I why why don't we work on spending some time alone together? We don't have to hang around with all these people. You know, whatever. If I you know, if you're if you're waiting for him to to intuitively know that you're feeling this way, there's a strong possibility he's just he just ain't taking it in. And so I'd at least give him the chance to to rectify it. Give him a a heads up. This is how you're feeling. You can't be mad at him for a thing that he didn't in intuit.

I yeah. I don't know. I maybe I I realize that's unfair, and you would expect more from a guy, but, like, just honestly, they don't take in the world into full scope that you do. Right? They barely pick up on small, you know, visual and or verbal cues. You pretty much gotta lay the whole thing out, and tell them the whole deal, and then give them a chance to to rectify it. And you go, dealing with these fellows are exhausting. I have to tell them everything. It's it's one of the downfalls of being the dust. We just we just don't they just don't do this well, and I'm telling you, they're not doing it on purpose. They just lack the capacity that you feel like a common female would have. They just don't they're not taking it in right. So anything else?

Secular sins. Yep. Some men relate better to women than they do men, which may be why your gentleman friend is closer to these women than his male friends. They may be admitting a quote's proprietary vibe because they feel threatened and fear you will steal him away. I don't know where this relationship is headed, and neither do you at this point. So for now, ignore the quote's vibes. Be warm and friendly to the women, and concentrate on what you have going with him. And please write me again in six months, so I I may let my readers know what happens. Yeah. Just chill out. I don't think that's no. I disagree. I think you should tell him. Your feeling should be validated. Right? It's important enough that it's causing you concern. I'd bring it up. I mean, what are you talking about here? You trying to date a guy, or you you look at a married man. Right? Like, you're you're trying to partner with somebody throughout life. If you are, just tell him. Like, give him the explanation. Say this is where I'm at. Yeah. Marriages be a lot better. You just open communicate these things. You're feeling frustrated with them? Tell them. Yeah. Yeah. I guess to that end, if you're if you're gonna say something, don't give them an ultimatum. Don't Right. Don't insist he's doing something wrong. That's right. Just say, I feel this way. Help me understand it. Let him respond. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Alright. Hey. You've listening to Life From We do appreciate you hanging out with us again tonight. Hey, baby. If you you need some advice and you're super desperate, you can give us a call and use that complaint line, and we'll be able to we'll do our very best to help you on the Dear Life The The Path. So that's a (515) 517-0085. Call or text (515) 517-0085. We would love to hear from you. Also,

take this time this week, if you listen to Life From The Path, to leave us a review on your favorite podcast app. I don't think it actually does anything, but it does give us the warm and fuzzy. People say it does. Yeah. I don't I yeah. I'm just not sure that's accurate. Okay. But anyway, we do we do we do enjoy it because it's a it's a way that we get to hear from you. And if you're displeased with it, hit the one star. Just be honest. Anyway, thanks for hanging out. We do appreciate it.

We are planning on seeing you next week. In the meantime, be faithful in means. God will hand to the ends. You've been listening to Live in the past.