Live from the Pathway Studios in Johnston Proper. You are live from the Path. And you're listening to Live From The Path. We're coming from the Path way Studios here in Johnston Proper. I was born here, I'll die here. But we're not born here. We're not born here. No. Pretty close. I'm a I'm a man of constant sorrow. Alright.

Here's what we got going on the show this evening. So there were a number of you who did not complain about the show last week, and that tells me you didn't listen to it. You really should have. And so you're not being discerning, and you should change your ways about that. I'd yeah. Either that or you're not passionate enough to tell us when you are discerning, in which case both are problems. Let us know. We know we are we know you're rather not watching or you are and you don't care. Yeah. Just text me and say, hey, boova. Miss you, and I'll feel better about myself. Okay. Yeah. No. Whatever. I don't care. Alright. You're here's what we got going on the show this evening. There was an article on the Christian Post. It said the main reason people ditch god. What do you think it is, Mike? Have you read the oracle? No. Do you read for fun? No.

No. Can you read? How many letters of the alphabet can you name? Go. Stop. Alpha? I was gonna start with sigma. I'm gonna start with G. I don't know why. Why would I start at the beginning? I had it in my mind. In fact, I was in a discussion in the car with one of my kids a couple days ago around, like, it feels like the English, like The UK, United Kingdom English, they they don't like they don't use the z. Like, we use z for things that they don't use z for. Yeah. That's because they use zed. How do they represent sleeping? Well right. But they but, like, it's the same I don't know. I think they saw a lot zed zed zed zed zed zed. But, anyway, I like, I was trying to figure out, like,

when someone was putting these language together, like, is there one where they're like, we don't really need it? But, what what what tipped the scales? Like, what when when the s was available, what caused them to go, I think we really need the z? Do you wanna think Mike, do you wanna think about that? No. I don't care about this, Ben. You should ask AI. You shouldn't have spent any more than about three seconds on this. I've been thinking about it all week. I'm ask AI why English does not why English has both z and s

when they both could accomplish the same thing just with s. S can do more. It's because of fussy and fuzzy. Those are two different things. What about I'm feeling fuzzy. No. I'm feeling fuzzy. Somebody made the same sound a b makes, and they're like, if they don't go Ew. They would've And so they're like, we gotta represent that somehow. You also said different starting consonants with that, weirdly enough. Yeah. That that got real confusing. You went buzz and then psss. Like, psss. Where did like, wait a minute. Make make a b and an s sound. Psss. Do we have to work through what sound a b makes versus what sound b makes? Try it. Buzz. Yeah. And pss. No. Now make a bee. Now do a b and an s together. Okay. Alright. This is the right time to say, we're opening a Patreon account of which you can pay for extra content.

We're gonna move phonics. We're gonna move this to the extra part. $20 a month. Moob and Mike figure out how to pronounce a p versus a b. Okay. What my main what's the main reason people ditch god? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What do you think it is? I think I think it's people. Okay. You think it's be like, because Christians are offensive? Yeah. Well well, I no. Crap. I don't know. I would say that, like, people they people have set an expectation on what god's gonna do and what he's not, and he didn't make it. Okay. Okay. God's God's not meeting their expectation. Yes. Okay. But what do you think? I think it is people misrepresenting God. As in

they they claim the name of God and then are just rough people and are not doing anything alongside it, and so people lose faith thinking there's no chance that there's a god behind that kind of behavior or that kind of person. Right. If there is a god, he sucks because he's letting people tarnish his name. Right. Yeah. Okay. Fair enough. Dan, what do you think? I I think they will say it's because Christians are hypocrites, but in reality, it's just because they're rebellious. They don't they don't wanna be controlled. Be a rep. They don't wanna do it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. But they gotta blame somebody else. Okay. Okay. Alright. Let's check it out. This is by Robin p Shoemaker. She said, I've had a flurry of in your face confrontations over god lately. The most the most recent occurred at a funeral. A person at the visitation went on an extended rant that pinballed in every direction and included me being peppered with so many. How can you believe that I lost count? Then there's the 30 girl who bailed on the faith after terrible failed marriage to a person in the ministry who would turn out to be a moral failure, which included extra heapings of guilt thrown on her by the loving members of the church she used to attend. Last but not least is another woman raised in the the faith who now views Christianity as repressive and kicked it to the curb because of her sexual and other moral preferences. It's been quite the scene. A couple years back, I wrote an article on three reasons people reject the faith, and all of them were present in these latest encounters along with the ever present dislike of god's moral law. The first person had bad events come into his life that pretty much train wrecked everything. Although not aware of it, they were wrestling with the issue. Nobody cares. He was now nodding in agreement with aceus atheist Richard Dawkins who wrote, in a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces, genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt. Other people are going to get lucky, and you won't find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference.

Well, that's a hopeful. The second person had bad people coming to her life. She was locking arms with Gandhi who said, I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. The third person had bad morals well up within, well up within her life. She'd settle into the position articulated well by some fellow who said, I had motives for not wanting I liked it. I thought this was actually a pretty, spot on quote. I had motives for not wanting the world to have a meaning. For myself, as no doubt for most of my friends, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation from a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom. And so I think you can toss out sexual freedom if you had to, but any freedom. Like you it's it's it's easier if you toss out the sense of a moral good, it liberates you from the burden of failing to adhere to it regardless of whether that constraint is that you believe there. Yeah. That's being really generous with the word freedom. Yeah. Yep. When you talk with these three people and others in their same shoes long enough, you find that they may have different reasons for stiff farming god, but they all have one thing in common. As the guy at the funeral went on about why god couldn't exist, I noticed something interesting about him. He was furious. Same with the two women I described.

That's a strange feeling to have about something you don't think exists. No one gets that mad at Santa Claus because they don't get what they want at Christmas. Pastor Doug Wilson, who debated the late atheist Christopher Hitchens on multiple occasions, said that many atheists have two declarations. One, there is no god, and two, I hate him. On the one hand, the bible talks about the mind of the unbeliever being hostile toward god and the rage being directed at the creator, but there's something more going on here. The mindset is that we're not getting what we want and deserve and are angry about it. So that's the sum up. It's like all these things are people have an expectation. The expectation is not being met. There is creator god. If if a creator god exists who could have said it right, again, they either stink at their job or there simply isn't one, which is a very hopeless position. Like think of the ways that people were

reacting, the funeral person and the person who was married to the person with the moral failure, and maybe it's a religious crutch to be like, I have to believe that this means something or it matters to someone as opposed to someone mistreated me horribly. I am the recipient of a grave injustice and the world is indifferent about it. Because the same indifference that allows people freedom or what they believe to be freedom to do whatever they want also crushes people without any consideration or concern if there's no moral reason behind it. And so what a callous way to even think of the world. If we believe that to be true, you should lament that. You should lament that there is a quote unquote freedom that allows you

to not have to be bogged down by any sense of either personal or corporate morality because that same thing is spitting in the eyes of the poor, it's crushing the lame, it's more like atrocities go unborn because it's indifferent. That would be, that's a hopeless world. Yeah. Because not only is the definition of morality a floating definition, but it varies largely by your scope of perspective. Right? So, like, even if on a moral stance, like, you did what was best for your family, like, for example, like, the folks across the street, you were starving, and the people across the street had food and refused to give you any. Right? Like, you're like, well, on a on a sliding scale, if I just rob the people across the street from me, now my family is eating. That's what I I should be able to do anything to feed my family. That on its is a moral good. You know? But, like like, if you I I think, like, these arguments always they're interesting to me because they already come with a with a a lawyer a lawyer spin on them where they only allow you to look at it in one way. Right? Your freedom

your freedom to do whatever you want, obviously, has the ability and most of the time the consequence of impending on the freedom of someone else. Right? Your actions are not happening in a vacuum. So it's not like ultimate freedom is just flying around everywhere. If I say I have the freedom to do whatever I want, that means I can take this car if I want to. I can kill that guy if I want to. I can sleep with that gal if I want to. Like, there's consequences all attached to that, which means that the freedom that someone else was enjoying is now impinged upon because of my freedom. Right. And there's no if there's no moral good, then that's fine. Then there's nothing good or bad about it. It just is. Yeah. Right. And and I think that was one of the points they they brought up and said in his message mercy not sacrifice, Tim Keller talks about two atheists he knows who aren't married and are fuming over their single singleness. Not just distressed, they're mad. They've told him that others who aren't as good, kind, thoughtful, etcetera, as they are have spouses, and they feel that that is so unfair. Unfair? How do you get unfair from life if you're an atheist? Go back to Dawkins quote and tell me where fair is. Like, that's the thing. There's not a fair. There's not like a a sense of what is good, what is not good. And like, even as societies,

like, ignore a religious context, political societies or countries or whatever, like you're wrestling with some notion of like, here's the fairness that we agree to at a time. We agreed fairness in 1780 was that people of a certain skin color were two thirds of a person. And so, like, what people agreed to at any given time is not really a good assessment as to what is fair. But we but we base a lot of our our modern thought on that. Like, the that's why we believe we've evolved from things because of what we poorly judged as morality two hundred years ago. We're like, well, we're past that now. As we continue to poorly judge like the situations that we're in now, like, we we swing the other way completely, where now we say, okay. Well, if a if a 40 year old man falls in love with a nine year old girl, well, that should be his freedom. Right. Right? That should be morally acceptable because we've evolved past the point of trying to call balls and strikes on the way that people feel about things. Which is so interesting because, like, one of the values or virtues of the American system is that like we've provided a very

it's built in that there are ways to correct our errancy, right? That you can the people can vote and we can rethink and we can reapply and that the constitution can be amended and changed, right? That's part of its brilliance. But at that core, it's an admission that we are errant. That at any moment in time, even as a majority society, we get our morality wrong. Like we miss it. We give the vote. We take the vote. Right? Like say, oh, these people can cast the vote. Like think of the things that we've amended is a value to the system, but it doesn't support our trust in humans as a whole to say in general, we get things

right. Even though I think there's a basic image of God thing that like a lot of the morals bend towards, hey, we probably shouldn't kill other people. Although you'll argue over what's a person or not. And so it's just, it's interesting. The hopelessness that should exist in a world without a moral right. Now that actually doesn't even argue for Yahweh. That just argues for a moral right. It doesn't have to be the God of the Bible. It doesn't have to be the God that we describe. But like, it does present a situation where like it's just simply isn't right to look out of the world if you have no moral belief system or one that's personal to you

and to claim anything is unfair. Hey, as a matter of fact, take a group of people and go, hey, that guy didn't pay. They're not paying their fair share of taxes again. Like, what do we mean? What makes it fair? Not fair. Like your your opinion, same person to your to your early example, Mike would go. It's not fair that my neighbor has more than me. Well, I mean, there's all kinds of rational ways to justify. Maybe your neighbor worked for it. Maybe you didn't do anything, but your view of fair, not fair isn't based on anything except for the thing that you're feeling at the moment. Yeah. I I guess I I wouldn't I don't know that I would agree. Once again, I don't know that atheism is is huge of a problem as I thought it would be. Even I was just talking to a guy at work the other day. Like, it'll just it'll knock me off my feet to find out that the man is not an atheist. Right? Like, he agreed to he's like, yeah. I believe in a higher power, and he believes that it's it's not not what I believe. Right? But, like, the fact that, like, he even would take that on as a as a thought process in his life would just surprise me anyway. Yeah. But I I I really feel like most of the time when I find folks that have said, well, I don't have a relationship with God or I don't really believe God does this. Like, if they're just they believed one lie somewhere,

and honestly, they never actually tried following Jesus. They never actually did it. Like, they they heard the thought of it or they were the rules were impressed upon them and what what they thought were restraints were tickets to freedom, but they saw him as restraints. Yeah. And then they went out and then, like, they lived life however they wanted, and they said, I will never go back to those restraints. I'll tell you that. Even as the choices that they're making continue to bury them, and it has no outpouring of joy or peace, but they're like, well, this is still better than the constraints that I was either I grew up with or I thought that came with a life from following Christ. And, like, it just feels like you never actually knew them. Like, you may have known, like, a church structure or you may have believed a a lie from your grandma or something. Like, something along the line convinced you that god was not offering you freedom from both sin and, like, the the the tougher parts of being a human. You know? And, like, you thought it it was a a rule based thing to try to show that you were good enough. And, like, you feel like we we've nailed this in every sermon ever taught that that's not the deal, but it's really the set of cards that a lot of people are working from. Yeah. It's interesting to think about, like, how many

folk I think to your point, like, there's a difference between, like, how many people running into who are, like, staunchly atheist versus people who would claim a belief in a god that is of no particular consequence to their life. Yes. Yeah. And and, like, I actually, to the the lady that married the the preacher, this is a great example. Right? Like, this also seems to be a societal change where your feelings

get to be more of the reality than actually the situation. Right? Because if you were to if you were to to to take a higher level view of what happened to that gal, is it terrible? Yes. Should it not have happened? No. It definitely should not have happened. But at the end of the day, a valuable, jerk store man, like, treated you very poorly. God didn't do any of that. Right? A guy that claimed to represent the teachings and the the ways of living that were handed down through Jesus Christ obviously did not believe in that, and he did whatever he wanted. And so, like, you get to be upset about it. You get to have your life shaken and broken by it. But, like, it I I I guess I don't understand. Like, you had if you had this relationship with god or believed in the things at all in the first place, it is the thing that rides you through those situations,

not the thing that falls as a casualty of poor human behavior, which is which is flat out, like, told throughout the bible, like, humans tendencies to not trust god and trust their own ways and continue on paths that that will otherwise destroy them that God begged them not to do for all the reasons that he offered his freedom for, and they will continue to do them. And then you're like, well, I knew this pastor and he was a jerk, and he was mean to me, and he cheated on me, and he ruined my life. Now, yeah, he was part of some very bad events that happened to you. But at the end of the day, when your life is in the hands of the savior, that guy just gets to move off to the wayside. Okay. That bad thing happened, and it did happen. But, like, it doesn't get to ruin the rest of my life. That guy don't hold that much power. Right. Right. I find that that I think that happens a lot. Like, I think we've moved feelings into the number one position,

and reality matters not as much. Right? And that's really hard be especially in the the day and age that we grow up in. Like, try walking up to a to a woman who's been cheated on and say, look. That's terrible. And I agree it's terrible, but, like, we I mean, we can't donate the rest of our life to this thing. You know what I'm saying? Like, we it happens. Sin happens. You know it happens. Earthly consequences are you're maybe you're not married to that guy anymore. Maybe you are. But, like, either way, like, it doesn't get to color the rest of your life as terrible. And, like, I think we talk about trauma a lot and, like, some of it is it are things that will shape your life in a certain way, but, like, I don't know that like, we've we're more leading on the side of letting it define your life. And and I think your savior gets to define that, and God always already says what you're worth and and and what he brings by following him through through peace and joy, and, like, you're accepting none of it. Right. Right. The article one of the things it also said is that people like, where people are getting angry c s Lewis spoke to this. The more you obey your conscience, the more your conscience will demand of you. And your natural self, which is thus being starved and hampered and worried at every turn will get angrier and angrier. And so like it was kind of the the thought around people get angry at god like part

one, I suppose, like, if you're left with a world of which there is no particular hope, like, you got your direct your anger somewhere because, like, realistically, there's no individual person or situation to direct it at. So you chose god to to otherwise do it. But then you're also left with the moral burden of yourself. This is why I think it's difficult to be someone who goes like, I believe in a higher power. Like, I feel like that would just be, like, nagging at me all the time. Mhmm. Like, I don't know enough about this. I get this nagging sense that, like, I'm probably not living up to it. It's a genie who may help sometimes and I'm comforted by that. But like, I'm also kind of it just feels like someone's on me. And and because this there's no personal definition to this god, you don't know what it wants. It's it's as arbitrary and, you know, as as a as a Greek god or as a Roman god. It's kinda terrifying. Yeah. I I mean, there's just unknown entity out there that's maybe watching me, maybe not, maybe cares, maybe doesn't, maybe it's gonna squash me. I mean, like, I I don't know. If you don't know, I I was I I don't know. Some social media thing the other day and then you somehow, you know, you read something, you go on a goose chase and you start reading comments. I don't know what started it, but all these people were talking about haunted houses in the area. And everybody's like, oh, yeah. My house is haunted and blah blah blah blah. And I'm thinking they were so nonchalant about about like, I'm thinking I mean, then you get into the whole okay. Don't think it's a a haunted thing. But it's like they believe it's a ghost. You know? And it's like you're just hanging out in your house and you think there's a ghost? I mean I mean, it's like mean, doesn't that kinda bother you? Like, I mean, I don't I don't know. The whole thing was kinda kinda wild to me. And then from my perspective, it like demonic to me. You know? And I'm thinking so you're just hanging out in your house with demons? I mean I mean, I don't know. Yeah. That's Gerald. Don't worry about him. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Someone thinks that they had a haunted cat, and I'm I'm like, what? A haunted cat? Yeah. That cat shows up, but it's like a spirit. I'm like anyway. Yeah. Yes. You're reckoning with a lot of things in that situation. I mean I believe in an afterlife. I believe in the the possibility that spirits don't pass on, and I also believe that cats have said spirits and have the opportunity to not pass on sometimes.

And Whiskers is still here with me. But yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But there's yeah. There's this generic higher power power out there, spiritual world out there that that that we're intersecting with once in a while. That would drive me insane if I didn't have some type of basis for that. Yeah. I mean, I think it would be it would be a bit terrifying to even if you were open to it, it feels like it's gonna upend your life. Right? If, like, this the kind of nebulous notional god that may or may not exist, like you can at least, I feel like it would nag at you, but you can dismiss it. But if you try to embrace the reality of a God that you otherwise rejected as being real, like again, Jesus changes everything. And so to the extent that you are open to that,

it's a reexamination of not only all the stuff that you've thought or believed in the past, but like, what does your next year look like? What does it mean to the things that you've have taught or not taught your children? Like, I do think there is an emotional barrier at times to reckon with the world that you've seen completely differently because then you have to re reckon with your life choices and you know, it doesn't need to feel that heavy but like I often think that there are people who have

you know, lived life in such a way that like the way that they, they won't hear it. They won't hear that they've lived it wrong or that they've seen it wrong because the consequence of coming to those terms is like a load. It's a load to rethink your relationships in in light of you being wrong. And I think it's hard. Do you realize the things that you have to believe about the afterworld to have these these hauntings? Like, just think about it. Like, in your in your in your perception of this, like, there is an afterlife. And, like, you have to go, okay. I don't know exactly how it happens. I'm gonna assume that it's like Casper style. Like, it's it's it's spirits with unfinished business here on Earth. Around. Yeah. But it turns out their unfinished business is to shut a door every once in a while. Yeah. Or maybe move a plate. Better. Yeah. Right? Or let the cat out. You didn't remember letting the cat out. Had to been the ghost. Right? Like, the unfinished business that kept this thing from moving on to its final resting place was small irritations at your place. Like, that doesn't make a lick of sense. Now unless, is it possible that that is part of the Satan is bound work of Jesus on the cross? That what? He used to be able to do more.

And so now Satan can only close your cupboards? The demonic activity is very restrained. So when God is a secret is here, I know I shut that cupboard. We had a gal show up to one of our prayer rooms once who had some definite demonic activity going on and was describing things happening, and it was like clearly, clearly demonic. She definitely the fear in her eyes told us she was seeing things in the room when we were there. Right? Mhmm. And and so we knew this was real. And we were, you know, we were reading scripture, we were talking, and and all she really the the the key thing is like, you want this gone. Right? Yes. Yes. Yes. Well, she was doing some things that that would open doors Yeah. To to the spiritual world. Like, you probably need to close these these these doors. You you know, you need to get some Jesus going on here. Hey. Just just curious, Dan. Can you are you able to share, like, what types of things? Things like she'd be alone in the night and, the music would turn on. There would be an in the couch next to her, like, like, the the seat would actually push down. Uh-huh. And and like she could feel the presence. Okay. Same as in her bed,

doors opening. I mean I mean, thing things that were Yep. You you know. What types of things was she doing that you felt like were opening doors? There there there were drugs and sexual things. Uh-huh. And and that's really I mean, an outright rebel a rebellion type of thing. I know God, but I I and I used to love God, but I you know, and I got a different thing now. Gotcha. And and we were explaining that, you know, you really need to clean the house, you know, as Jesus said. We're gonna we're gonna cast these demons out, you know, they're just gonna come back. I mean, you know, you you you've gotta are you ready to make a change? I'm not no. I'm not really ready to do that. So no change then. No. No. She did probably were in there an hour and a half at least and she finally she actually threw up and ran out and never saw her again. I mean, she she couldn't couldn't handle it anymore in in the room there. Pretty intense time.

But, you know, you think you see these spiritual things going on. Yep. And it was clearly fearful to her. Yes. So that would seem a right reaction to spiritual things to me. Right? Like, it seems odd that it gets to be like, oh, yeah. My house is haunted. And you're just like nonchalant, like, it's fine. You know, every once in a while, I think I see a shadow of whatever. And you're like, you I don't think people ever process the whole thing that they have to believe to make true the things that are coming out of their mouth. Right? Like, yes, I believe in hauntings, but you're so nonchalant about it that you have zero control over this spiritual thing that appears to be living in your house, like, do and but but, like, doing, like, low level irritation things. Most people are not talking about demon possession things. They're talking about, like, odd irritating stuff like, it moved my keys or something, you know, or, like, you know, whatever the cat and and, like, for you to believe,

one, that that is happening, you have to acknowledge that there's a spiritual life that you don't understand, and you need to try to figure out why this is even allowed. Second of all, if it is even allowed, like, it still has to have it still has to have a reason for doing what it's doing. Right? Like, if there's gotta be a thing that is that is orchestrating it. So, like, if if it didn't pass on to its final resting place, what is it even doing here? And and for its end result to be moving the dog bowl Yeah. Right? Like, you can't you think about that for a couple seconds and go, this is utterly ridiculous, or there's this whole thing that I'm just like it's a house of cards on why I believe this even happens. Mhmm. You know I'm saying? Like, it sounds so ridiculous when you think about it. Now the demonic thing and the spiritual world thing, like, the Bible speaks to this. Like, things that that, like, cause a fear or a complete anxiety within you or, like, you know, color the way that you look at life to the to the point that you don't see light in it. This makes sense. Like, this is a spiritual oppression, and the and the bible's clear on that. Right? And it can actually do some legit damage. But, like, these these lazy, like, spoon movers, I just I don't understand. I don't understand how you can put this together in your mind and be like, I was on page 86. And when I woke up, it was on a 114 That had to been Myrtle. She was in here flipping through my book. You know I'm saying? Like, it sounds so dumb. It's funny how, like, some of the reports of, like, evil spiritual activity, demonic activity in The United States is so, like, blase and lazy. And then again, parts of the world, go to the Haiti, The Dominican Republic, parts of Africa, parts of Asia, and like, these are actual like, things that you would more expect. Yeah. Terrifying. I was gonna share this with you guys, I don't think I ever did. Like, it was recently in Minnesota. It was a library. They they held a demon summoning ceremony.

So who did? The church or the demon summoner? Some group was at the library as a public library. I I I'll have to find that and send it. But but The public library doesn't want public programs. I mean, you know, I I don't know. But they they think we're just not we we we could be more friendly to the demons, and we we just don't understand them. Oh, for heaven's sakes. And and I thought we're gonna see more and more stuff that that that we've been discounting as probably not real or, you know, we're just gonna see more and more stuff. Yeah. Just imagine going to a library and seeing a, like, a flyer up on the cart or, like, the the the wall that says come on out and be a part of the sons of Beelzebul. It does like, once again, like, what's the the story? The sons of a Skwas. Yeah. Squeevous. Mhmm. Or whatever. Oh, yeah. Squash. Right? Where they where they, like they thresh these dudes like freaking wheat. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And, like, if you think like, in my mind, I'm like, they find us so unthreatening that, like, there's no threshing there's not even needed. Right? They're like, they're destroying themselves. Why would I even have to thresh anybody? Right? They're willing to go to a library and and, like, have a a friend's outreach program for demons. And they're like, we got no examples to make care of. These ones already belong to us. They're idiots.

And so, like, it seems like like some of the spiritual things that we talk about that happen in other parts of the world and don't tend to happen much in The United States or Western culture. Like, it's for the same reason that, like, it feels like Jesus says you the only sign you're gonna get is the sign of Jonah because the rest of them are wasted on you. Yeah. There the the rest of the there's parts of the world where they're fighting a war. We're paying laser tag. Yeah. Yeah. Like, that's what's happening. Yeah. Because, like, people are always begging. They're like, if god would just show up, if god would just show up, if god would just show up. And, like, Jesus speaks to this. He's like, I could totally show up. Yep. And it would not mean a lick to you. You'll still miss it. It would not change a thing in your estimation even if like, you're trying to trick me. You're, like, basically trying to peer pressure the lord into going, if you do this thing, then I will totally believe. And god goes, yeah. I hear you saying that. You don't actually believe that because you won't because I know these things. And that and that goes to to Dan's point on the story of the of the prayer room is that, like, this this person believed that demonic activity was real. Confident. Like like knew it. Like you knew and and but when faced with here's what it means to otherwise to get this to go away and you go, nope. What other sign do you need? Like, you're seeing the things, can tell, you can feel it in the room, you can tell that there's something going on when people are praying for you and like, you got everything you need and she goes, no, I don't wanna give that stuff up yet. And it is one of those deals where, know, obviously, I'm pretty skeptical of whole thing. Thought, oh, okay. You can pick up all this stuff from the average movie. Sure. You know? And at some point, there were two or three of us where look something happened. I don't remember now. It's been long enough ago. Yeah. We're like, okay. This is the real deal. Right. I mean, there was there was terror at a certain moment when before before she ran. Yep. And it's like, okay. This was there was something behind us going on that we couldn't see. Yep. And anyway yeah. Yeah. And by the way, that was an art center or an art whatever. It's not a Oh, not a library. Not a library. Yeah. Big difference. That's better. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. The the art is more intense. You're listening to Live From The Path. Thanks for hanging out with us. I don't even remember what we're talking about. Well, so we started talking about Demons? No. The the thing people were They brought us astray. The key problem of an atheist. Like, what their core thing is. Their key problem was demons. And then we got into we got into demons at the library. Like the like the plot of Ghostbusters one, really. Yeah. Demons at the library. Hey, there was another article I saw. So Boopa's got some ask the pastor on Proverbs. We're gonna get to that here in just a second. I this was interesting. I Dan, I think you you probably saw this because I think we've got some mutual friends who would've shared this, but there was an article that came out by Bob Russell. Oh, Bob Russell was a

pastor. I love Bob Russell. I think he's a great fella. But he produced a post and it says it was about when the church endorses drinking. And so he says a recent invitation to a church, a small group was titled bible and beer. Another church group invited members to join them for a tour of Kentucky's Bourbon Trail. These invitations for church sponsored activities illustrate the dramatic shift that has occurred toward the use of alcohol since I started in ministry sixty years ago. Now I'll be honest with you. This has the this has the a bit of the flame like the one we talked about last week. It feels a little bit like, oh, here are the challenges or here's the thing that was true thirty years ago. People used to keep keep gin in their cupboard, and that was it. I want you to I want you to hear Bob out and remind me that that I like, I will he's awesome. He's a he's an excellent fellow. However,

here's his description. Sixty years ago, was customary to see a sign over a liquor store that read closed election day. Most state governments maintain a prohibitionary ban requiring liquor stores to be closed during polling hours, blah blah blah. They know drinking numbed the mind, and people needed to vote with a clear head. Sixty years ago, was illegal to sell alcohol anywhere on Sunday. In most states today, the sacredness of the lord's day is completely ignored, and alcohol flows freely the entire weekend. Sixty years ago, most secular colleges and almost all church related schools had rules against drinking. Now authorities ignore the problem, and the label of party schools considered an asset to recruiting. For the past sixty years, the University of Kentucky had prohibited the sale of alcoholic beverages at football games. It has been under consideration considerable pressure releasing to lift this ban as being too restrictive. Sixty years ago, it was considered improper for a woman to be seen drinking in public. At But sporting events today, it's not unusual to see a young woman climbing up the arena steps with a beer in each hand. Sixty years ago, it was inappropriate for public school teachers to drink. In fact, the public consumption of alcohol was considered grounds for termination. Yet today, there's often an open bar at educators' conventions.

Sixty years ago, most pastors preached against alcohol consumption and pleaded for church members to abstain totally. Unfortunately, in their zeal, some erroneously insisted the bible forbids alcohol, often quoting Proverbs, blah blah blah, while ignoring passages like Psalm one zero four, which was wine gladdens human hearts. Today, in contrast, the pendulum has been swung so far in the opposite direction that many pastors and church officials themselves are comfortable with being social drinkers. Alcohol is served at wedding receptions inside church facilities, and church groups serve alcohol during bible studies. Church policies against staff consumption of alcohol are winked at or repealed. If someone expresses disagreement with the church's weakened stance, they are flippantly dismissed as too legalistic. Why has the attitude toward drinking changed so drastically? I guess, do you guys have any thoughts on that? Like what's shifted here? Because that is a significant

The question, like it's a societal shift for sure. Right. How much of that is the church shift is maybe the same question, maybe not the same question. I'm not sure. Like the question is how much of that was actually driven by biblical standard versus just things that are shifting in the society as a whole? But I don't know. Did you have a thought about why that has shifted? I can say I was in the transition period because I was I was I can I can I know exactly what he's talking about? I remember alcohol not on Sundays. I remember I mean, like, there was, like it was covered in the in the grocery in the stores. It wasn't even in the grocery stores. Right. Oh, wow. I mean, it was like, yeah, you just didn't. You couldn't do it. Yep. Not allowed. And and it was definitely in the church a huge taboo. I mean I mean Yep. Yeah. No no smoking, no drinking,

no dancing and cars. Dancing. You and footloose? Footloose was real. Right? Yep. And and it was really my generation kinda came going, but it's not really what it says. In the scripture. And so I'd be like, mean, just don't get drunk, it doesn't say you can't. But usually

we kinda kept with however there may be people in our congregation that struggle with alcoholism and for them to see me with one gives them permission personally to have 12. So I went a good twenty, thirty years not touching an ounce of anything. And then kinda finally softened a little bit because biblically,

you know, well, like I said, it just says don't get drunk. Yes. You don't Right. There's just no wisdom in it. Yes. Yep. He says some pastors justify the change in attitude to being more spiritually mature today than church leaders of sixty years ago. I think that's wrong. Anybody who says that is that's dumb. There's no reason to claim a maturity.

There's a good, to Dan's point, there's a good caution in it. There's a recognition of how your behavior impacts other people. All things that feel legalistic, I think probably can be done for good intent and in some cases are perfectly fine. The question is like, did you become someone's jailer on the process? So yeah, think that would be wrong if that's their perception. But he provided so here's his follow-up though. He said,

because I follow the principle of speaking where the Bible speaks and being silent where the Bible is silent, and that's where you end up with people who do non instrumental, So it's a little bit strict. I do not make alcohol consumption a test of fellowship. However, I'm not convinced that today's church leaders' more liberal approach toward drinking is a positive change. Now here's his examples. For instance, one well known pastor recently excused his moral on the grounds he had a little too much to drink at a church party. It's not an alcohol problem. I mean, it is. Right. But, like, the fact that you would find that justifiable is less of an alcohol problem. It's more of, like, it's a hard issue. Like, you shouldn't be leading people if if if you believe that is a viable excuse. Yeah. Because it's not you leading anymore. Yes. Right? Like, I mean, by the time that you're you're drunk, you're not firing on your on your capacity anymore. Right? Like, it is almost a different version of you that's that's speaking.

Yeah. And, also, the alcohol just I think it just loosens lips. Like, it it doesn't come up with new thoughts or new actions. It just it lowers inhibitions to do things that you were already intending to do or were were were stopped doing in the presence of clear mind. But when, you know, you you're in the presence of that kind of alcohol, it it, like I said, lowers his inhibitions. Yeah. He says, at another church, one member complained that an elder regularly served communion while under the influence.

Who What? Who's this drunk fellow? That's a Sunday morning drunkard? Like, again, this guy's next level. Also, what is under the influence? Like, I had I mean, I really don't care. It's still pretty rough in in any situation, but having a beer and going to church is different than I was at the bar all night and still drunk from it, and now I'm serving communion. Maybe they were smelling cheap cologne and assumed they'd been drinking. Yeah. Yeah. Mean They smell like brute. I'd straight up killed a couple people for offering unauthorized fire, like still fire to the lord, but not the fire that he had asked for. Drinking. Why alright. And then these fellas, like, I don't know how that doesn't come out to be, like, astronomically terrible. Right? Like, you're basically filling a Levitical role here serving this communion,

and you've not even tried. Right? You didn't even show up to try to take on the responsibility that the church has given you. Yeah. The the elder regularly served communion. Why is he still serving communion? This this should have happened one time and said, Earl, we love you. You're no longer allowed to do the communion. Yeah. So these examples I think these are terrible examples, to be honest with you. Like, they're I we'd like they're they're one off situations of which someone should have dealt with. The guy shouldn't be leading a church anymore. I I actually don't care that he I I mean, I care that he had a little too much to drink. I don't know what his indiscretion was. If it's as bad as what I think of their meaning, then he shouldn't Yeah. Here's the thing. There's a there's the reason. Like, you look at it and say, look, the guy made an offhanded comment, right, or whatever at a at a church function. And, like but he made five other decisions that put him in that situation. Right? And so, like, can I can I if someone says, hey, man? I was drinking a little too much and I said this stuff or I did this thing. I'm like, yeah. I get it. Like, I get how that happened, but you also made five other supporting decisions that put you in that situation. Yeah. And so this was not a failure, right, on on the amount that you drank. Right? Like, one, you over drank at a church function. That was foolish. Right. Second of all, you put yourself in close proximity to another woman, that ain't your wife, while you were drunk at a church function, which you should. Like, it's a cascading level of poor decisions, which means that you weren't leading

with the joy that god had offered you. You were leading with your attempt to grab something for yourself. Right. That's what pastor. Right? It wasn't the church leader. Right. So, I mean, you can even go a step beyond that and just go, how many jobs are out there where they say it's okay to drink before going to work? He was working. He's the pastor. Yeah. I mean, everybody else was there as, you know, hey. Church function. He's like, dude, I don't care. Yeah. You were still a pastor. And then that's it. Like, that's that's pretty the bartenders gotta keep it tight. Right? Right. Right. You gotta you gotta take one shot of alcohol, and then the next five times somebody buys you a drink, take a shot of water. Yeah. Yeah. I just like, these feel I I there's a danger in it. There's totally a danger in it. And, like, moderation is super important, and, there's some people who shouldn't do it at all, and you have to be discerning about it. But like, I actually don't see how this is significantly different in some ways than

the number of pies you ate. Like like, either one of those things is capable of causing you physical harm. Yeah. I'm sorry. I touched that woman on the high note. I was all jacked up on peach pie. The blueberries got to me. Well well, I mean, we've had some mega mega pastor guys who who kinda went down because of the alcohol. Yeah. You you know, and and it they couldn't stop. They they were running that's part of the symptom there is you're running out to alcohol rather than to God. Yes. And and and so there's some other things, but nonetheless, are you're running to alcohol, which hinders your ability to think. The thing is is it owns you. That's the problem. Right? Like, it was there as it's given to you as a gift, and, like, it's not like God is unaware of the effects of wine on people. Yeah. Right? Like, he's totally aware of this. And so, like but when it starts to own you, when it starts to be the thing that's making your decisions for you, decisions that, like, you wouldn't normally make without it, then it's not adding to you. It's driving. It's running the car. Yeah. That's the problem. That's what we're pies won't do that. It it it'll still it'll run you, but it won't.

It just depends on who you is. It's just if you're diabetic. Sometimes it's those peach pies wanna get you. Yeah. Hey, baby. Do think I got another piece of pie. I do think this made me think about a conversation we had recently when we were talking about spiritual disciplines in that, there is a I I I think I want both. I want to be able to fight for non legalism. Like, don't don't set 10 fences in front of something. Like, the church is frankly has always been involved. They've been involved in alcohol consumption. Jesus was a wine producer.

Like, I like, don't we we over crank on that one. But, like, it just in general, like, they weren't afraid of alcohol. And frankly, like, oftentimes, again, you take middle ages, the church is producing alcohol because it's safer to drink than the water. Yep. And so, like, I I I I just wanna be careful that you don't over crank on it. But even if you didn't like, even if it was okay to do it, just like even if you don't have to read your Bible every day, it doesn't mean that there isn't, like, total wisdom in one abstaining or two, like doing the disciplines every day because you want to, because you're you're conscious about it, because there's a thoughtfulness around it. Like, I just like, personally, I'll say I I didn't I I don't like I don't like the way alcohol impacts people that I love. And not even just because, like, sometimes because people are, like, just flat out stupid, but I'm afraid they're just different people. I don't like interacting with people who I know very well.

And then, like, when I can tell that they're not the same person, it just makes me uncomfortable. Like, who am I dealing with here? I don't even know if I like this person even if they're not like belligerent drunks. And so, like, I I like I I I have no idea what it feels like to be drunk. Like, I've not ever tried. Well, maybe I tried once. I couldn't even do it. Like, I don't even like I don't like this good enough. But, like but, like but but then again, like, there are some I had okay. I'm a tell you a quick diversion story. I was up in Minneapolis for work, and it was, like, snowing outside. It's cold as nothing. And, like, the only place that was open because this was, in the middle of COVID. There was some sort of, like, German bar open. And so I went there and I think I ordered schnitzel or something and they had this like apple cider hot brandy. And that was the most delicious thing I've ever tasted. Like on a cold night that, I mean, will warm your bones. Delicious. It was it was I was it was work okay. My boss told us, it was work money. I thought, like, everyone buys booze. I don't. But I thought, heck, man. I'll try this thing. And, like, I you don't drink two of them, but, like, I probably drank half the glass, but it was great. It was really good. And so I thought like, is there a way to do this well? Yes, probably.

And so like, I'm less concerned about the two examples he gave, but I did think this is where I, like I I know what he's trying to protect. He said at the end of the article, he goes, you know, I made the decision to just abstain and I've never missed out on anything. And I I get that it's not a one to one comparison, but, like, you really could say the same thing about the peach pie. You could go, look, I just abstained. What did I really miss out? A few peach pies here. Like you could pick all those things and lead a very like non leaven bread way for life. And it's probably God honoring, but I'm not sure it's necessary. And that there's no like, it's not it's not holy necessarily. It just is something, and I don't care if that's your choice, but I don't know. Bubba, what are you gonna say? So I

made the decision alongside my wife four years ago Mhmm. That I was gonna quit drinking. And so I'd never had an alcohol problem systemically. Like, I never had a really big like, there have been times when I've been drunk, and I've gotten drunk through depression and have been at parties, done stupid stuff, whatever. But it was never really an issue with me as much as peach pies are, admittedly. Yep. But we had a conversation where before my wife and I got engaged, she said, you know, I have one thing that I want you to do, and I want you to stop drinking because

every once in a while, like, when I was smoking a cigar or when I was, like, smoking the pork shoulder or something, I'd have a glass of whiskey or bourbon. Just to be clear, those the definitions of smoking are too different in that situation. Yeah. No. I rolled up a whole pork shoulder in Cuban leaves, and I would smoke the thing, and it tasted delicious. Tell the AI to create that, Mike. Yeah. So smoking in in both situations, smoking a cigar or a pork shoulder. Same. Same same smoking. Verb is the same. Yeah. I I would have a glass of bourbon or something. It wasn't like I wouldn't drink a bottle of bourbon. I would literally have a small rocks glass with, like, two fingers of bourbon, and that was literally the extent of it. But she had brought up to me that

she had seen atrocities at the hands of alcohol. Mhmm. And her time in Africa where she saw families ripped apart by it. And in third world countries where it's like I mean, same as here. There are plenty of situations where families are, I mean, destroyed Yep. Because of alcoholism. Yeah. My family was was very hurt by alcoholism. Like, my mother was an alcoholic from the time that I mean, her whole life, but as as far as back as I remember as being, like, nine years old when I really found out about it, and it ruined. I mean, literally led to her essentially, well, it led to her suicide. I'm a firm believer in that. Right? And so she had asked me as saying that this is not something that I feel is a problem where, like, it's a sin issue between God and I, or it's a it's a problem between Gian and I where we, like, I was getting drunk or anything like that. It was literally just a situation where, like, we recognized the potential

Yep. Of of how awful that can be. And so we both made this like, she has never touched alcohol in her life. Yeah. And I have not done so in in about four years now. Actually, I take that back. She ordered a Nojito recently from a place. Yeah. And they they did not hear her correctly, so they brought her a full full strength, a mojito. Oh, yeah. And she took a sip of it and went, why does this burn me? Like, why does why does this hurt? It's a midgy fire. And she gave it to the person that was with her, and they go, yeah. This is great. And they go and she goes, oh, it's obviously alcohol then. Like so she's tasted alcohol now at the at the hands of Ruby Tuesday, I believe. Uh-huh. I knew it. And yep. Right. Exactly. But it the the fact of the matter was is it was not it it like you said, it was not a situation where it was a sin natured thing. It wasn't a situation where it was like a holiness problem between God and I, but it was recognizing the potential that I have as a very highly addictive personality. I tend to run to substances before I run to my God. It was just it was an unnecessary thing that I was allowing, and I I went absolutely. That's fine. I'll never drink the rest of my life, and and and that's a thing. And so it's just it's interesting because, like, with this piece, there's a legalistic nature to taking it in. There's a way to look at it that's biblical where it says, you know, wine was a thing in that culture. People drank it all the time. It wasn't a problem. There's a level where it could become a problem, and that's that's where we need to steer clear of. But there's also perspective of, like, if there's a situation where you think that there's any possibility of not being able to handle it, like, you could be legalistic,

and it doesn't have to be a thing where it's like, this is how I define god's, you know, instruction, but it can certainly be a way that you define yourself to make certain that you're putting up certain fences to cover. Like me, I stay away from as many food situations as possible because I know it can be a problem because I will spiral and run away from god god and run to them as my master. Yeah. It's not a sin as it was I mean, obviously, god made us running on food, And so like we have to have it, but there's a level that you can go too far with it. Yeah. And I do think like and it's just such a hard the spirit's gotta guide this kind of thing. I it's just contextually. I I I would be cautious if you're like, hey. Let's do the bible in bourbon because people need to know that god's coup. Yeah. That's weird. God's coup. And, like, I I may not even care whether you sip a bourbon and read the scriptures at night, but, like, there is a difference in, like, hey. Am I trying to attract people to god by the things he's not more that there is no moral law for? Now they get, oh, well, god's kinda cool. Maybe I'll be open to him him being lord of my life. Like, I I I guess I'd be cautious

if that is how you're thinking about it. Not because it's not even not even not true. It's just that, like, I I don't I don't know. I don't like that. Mhmm. I like it. To bring in something that may mean nothing here, but, like, just because it's I'm interested in thoughts on this. Alcohol was a very different thing back then. Like, they didn't have distilling they didn't have, like, alcohol that was 35% alcohol by volume. It's, like, six to 8% fermented grapes that gets wine. And so, like, it took a lot more alcohol back then than it does now Mhmm. To get to a drunken perspective. Perspective. You would have to really be hitting wine constantly over and over again to really get to that point, and to your point also, like, for a while, mead became a thing because it was seriously the cleanest thing to drink because I mean, through that fermentation process, it was cleaned. Is there any perspective of, like, we take we take the thought that, like, alcohol was okay in the bible, so it's good now very differently because if you're drinking a glass of vodka,

it is a very different thing than you drinking a glass of wine. You'll get hammered on a glass of vodka. A glass of wine will get you like, okay. I feel something because there's literally a chemical poison in my body right now, but it's not that big of a deal. Like, is that any part of this conversation, or am I just being a nerd bringing it No. I think there is a relevance to that. Like, there's the one think of it this way. Think of the wedding at Cana. Right? Mhmm. What is the highlight? The festivities or the booze? The booze supports the festivities. Right. But the festivities is the deal. It was freaking vodka. It's booze it's booze forward. Yeah. You're saying I want a vodka. It's booze forward. Yes. Going to the bars is not about the festivity. It's the fact that I can get access to an $11 Crown Royal. Right. I'm here to drink alcohol. So, like, there is a noticeable difference between, like, Bourbon and Bible as a group of dudes to try to attract people to get there and, like, Bourbon and Bible at your house by yourself as you wind down at 09:30 at night and you're like, I'm taking in the Colossians and Yeah. I'm gonna I'm gonna drink this whatever. This is the full thing I do. Like, I just don't have any problem with it. Like, zero problem. I I think I think this is where, like, you're ins we're inserting the word legalism where it doesn't actually even belong. Like, we're not talking about legalism as it pertains to the Bible. You're talking about legalism as it pertains to the church you grew up in or

or something. Right? And he wasn't even legalistic by that. He didn't judge anybody who did it. No. But he was also a pastor of a church of, you know, 20,000 people and it's like, I got 20,000 people looking at me. If I'm posting on social media with me going, hey, Bible and bourbon, baby. You know, he just wanted to stay away from my Yeah. I think the thing is is like all that stuff is really hard because like in the right context, all these are beautiful gifts from god. Right? And so, like, you could legalistically say, hey. I don't wanna have sexual temptation. I won't ever leave the house. I'll just stay here all the time. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like and because that's basically the protection you'd have to have. You'd throw away your phone, your TV, any connection with the outside world because of, like, what god put together, like, a sexual relationship. He's like, this is a gift to you. Right. And it's a great gift, and I want you to enjoy it. But you there's a temptation to use it wrongly. Right? And so, like, the legalistic route as it keeps get throwing in there is, like, to abstain from the rest of the world because one small thing might happen and we don't live that way. Right? And the same thing comes true with alcohol.

It's like, there's the the legalistic route of saying, look, I won't ever touch it because it could possibly be a problem to me. I think that's pertinent and that's not legalism. That is just good decision making. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Not it's not like you're you're some kinda horrible law enforcer. You're just like, I don't know. It's the same reason that, like, people don't do a lot of things. You know, to say, look at that. It just it might get me in some trouble, and I'm just not interested in that. I like the thing that I have now or the thing that I'm striving for more than the thing that you're offering. I did the way and measure, and Mike Pence says, I don't go out to eat with women by myself. He did a way and measure. He's not a legalistic jerk. He's just a guy that said, I love my wife. I love my marriage, and I love the situation I'm in, and I just don't like any of this other stuff clouding it up. Mhmm. Yeah. And I think that's completely right, and there's just no I don't well, I guess what I'm trying to get at is It's not legalism. Sometimes it's just good decision making. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I don't do a Hardee's ministry because that would be a problem for me where it may not be for you. Yeah. Yeah. Should we meet at the all you can eat breakfast buffet? Booboo goes, no. You know what? No. It's probably not a good place for me. I'm not meet you a straight club, and I'm not gonna go to the old country buffet Yep. To tell people about Jesus. I will go to the Hy Vee salad bar, though. Yes. I wish they would open that old country buffet back up again. Oh. I love it. Think about your relationship with food You don't have how much you want that to happen. And then you look over here, and you think about how much I want that to happen. Isn't it better that I do it than you? Yes. Agree. No. I'm saying it. At the level of want. Done. Also, I like just to tie a bow on that. Just realize that we're talking about this in a perspective of people who are

leading other people in in ministry. Right? Like, that is a different conversation. It's not wholly different. It's not completely different than regular old Joe Schmo taking an alcohol. But, like like, if you if you have a like, if you drink on a regular basis and it owns you, we're talking about you. This this is a problem. You're following it around. If you drink on a regular basis and it doesn't own you, no one's looking to put, like, Jesus guilt on you about that. Right? Like, you know whether it owns you or not. And on your better days, you'll be like, honestly, I think that might own me a little bit. Well, yeah, that's not what we're after. You're trying to get joy and peace from something that can't give it to you. And you've tried it the same way for years, and it continues not to work. And you're like, maybe this time. And it just doesn't do it, and you know it. And so, like, once again, not legalism, just good decision making. Yeah. Yeah. You know, after after not drinking for well, over twenty years, we introduced it into our home because our children were getting older and I wanted them to see a balance. Oh, okay. So didn't want to be like a taboo. We're scared of it because I wasn't scared of it. I just chose not to. Yeah. But they didn't know my you know, I just want I I wanted them to be able to see because, you know, I was obviously they were getting to the point where their friends were drinking and doing stuff and Right. And I'm sure it was offered to them and all that stuff. And it's just like I wanted them to see you can do it and and in a disciplined way and just and you control it. What are you drinking, Dan? Are you like, are you beer, wine, or Just beer guy. Or liquor? Just beer. I don't know. I I'm kinda ignorant, honestly, on this stuff. Like, I don't I don't know how to it's easier to say I'll take a beer rather than, you know, I don't know the names of stuff. Two fingers of buffalo trees. Here's the thing. I actually I was talking to another guy a couple weeks ago and said, like, I'm super cautious about not getting involved in in, like, fancy beers and drinks because, like, I I'm so the guy who will buy all the new things at the gas station. And do you know how long it's gonna take to get through all these variants?

I'm like, I can't I can't be involved in it. No. No. I have to do like, I think I like this hot cider thing. I think I'm I can do that. But and whatever the Irish cream is. What's the? Baileys? Oh, that is delicious. That is it's a you put that in things. You should you should drink it straight. Drink Baileys straight. 800 pounds of glory. Sweet. Anyway Sweet moats. That's it. The stuff that pays off into Guinness for a bite Irish car bomb, man. That's crazy. Candy. Okay. You're listening to Life From The Path. Hey. What I don't know. Here's the thing. I think you could fall there's not even two sides here, but you could fall on either side of that, and I could be like, yep. Could be. Like, which I think is the which means you just take the whole thing incorrectly. Take it in rightly. I was gonna say. Yeah. And so I just I I would be cautious by by if you feel like personally you land so heavy on one thing, it's okay if it's true for you,

but don't overprescribe your personal context on the things that Jesus has said and that the Bible otherwise directs or doesn't direct. Your context may be different. If you like we talked about last week, if you want the Bible to be a rule book, you're gonna read it differently than taking it in for what it actually is, which does include some moral guidelines, but is not the same thing as list of dos and don'ts. And so just read it in a healthy way. You listen to Life From The Path. Bubba, you gotta ask the pastor. So in my Bible reading the last week, I finished

Job, because we talked about Job last week, and I made my way into Proverbs, And so I am I think I did 11 through 15 today because I'm doing about five chapters a day, which is a very interesting thing in Proverbs versus some other books because, like, if you're getting five chapters of a story, that's one thing. If you're getting five chapters of Proverbs, you've read roughly 285 sayings. Yes. And so I I might have to I might have to revisit that as I continue through because I'm about halfway, and it's just been like, okay. I'd I I'm not I don't think I'm paying attention to this the way that I should be. But a question popped in my head as I started reading through Proverbs of

why is this here? Because I don't ask that question when I'm justifying any other book, like, including Psalms and Ecclesiastes and and Songs of Solomon and stuff like that. Like, I just don't find myself in a place where I'm going, why is this even here? Like, you've got your history. You've got your identity pieces of who who God is. You've got your pieces of what is the kingdom through Christ and what is living in the in the church and after Christ that gets through the New Testament, things like that. The I but here, I've got 31 chapters that are wise sayings and personifications of both wisdom and folly,

and then, some stuff at the end by Lemuel. And it I'm just I'm just wondering, knowing that that Solomon was at least the the curator of a lot of this, and the originator of a lot of it, knowing that Solomon prayed at the beginning of his reign for wisdom and very famously received a large amount of it, as he asked God for it and then does this piece.

But why is it here in my Bible? What is it telling me from the perspective of, like, what am I learning about the identity of my God through these sayings? Because there's a lot of them that do make sense about, you know, the beginning of wisdom is the fear of the Lord, and it goes on to explain what the fear of the Lord is through practical nature, and then some that talk about how to be not a sluggard in your daily dealings, and then some with how to handle accounts correctly or how to handle fault from a neighbor correctly. But like, if I'm thinking right now where I am,

what am I supposed to get from this as it pertains to my God? And then in the context of when it was written, when it was compiled, and when it was, you know, placed to be a a book of sayings for for Israel. What were they getting from that? It wasn't meant to be just things to ponder. Was it another thing where it's like this is not necessarily a legalistic book of laws like the covenants that God set for his people, but generally, hey. Do you wanna figure out some ways to be right and and and good and wise? I think that this

was Solomon, we'll say God, putting out tweetable tweets before Twitter was cool. Short little clips, right, or memes, think think just of a picture in the background of a woman on a roof with a leaky faucet. You're like, oh, yeah. Yeah. And it was just little I mean, why do we do memes today? Because it's some little clever thing and you're like, it sticks with you. And hope, you know, it doesn't mean you've maybe radically changed your life on it, but it might give you some direction and and some wisdom. And and that's just a collection of all these memes that he had on social media back in the when was that? Around 2500? I don't even know. I haven't I haven't done my dating lately.

1,100 or no. Even there's farther along that. Yeah. BC? Yeah. So anyway, a while back. So it's it's it's Yeah. It's a first generation memes and and It's essentially what they would have had sitting on their desk of the the cat hanging from the from the tree. Hanging there, baby. You read stuff today and he'll say he'll treat this, you know, and then what did they say now, exit? I don't know. And so, as you know, well, this is why I'm asking the pastor, as it pertains to like,

is this a similar book to, like, reading the prophets among the people? Like, was this just passed as as as, like, excerpts that someone would say or, hey. This is a wise saying of of of Solomon and Proverbs. Like, what How is this used practically by by Israel? Like, what are they doing with these things? Yeah. I think I think that is the right way to think about it. And, like, I like, the the the the troublesome question is, like some of these bits of wisdom, you're like, oh, I don't know about that. Yeah. It's it's super interesting. Some of them, like, I think there's a cultural thing there that I'm just not getting. That don't seem right. And so here's here's actually let me let me ask you a question back. Yeah. Please. Style. Why wouldn't it be in the Bible?

And that's, appreciate you asking that because that has been, as I've thought about it, the flip of it, of what am I, and it actually goes back to the conversation we were just having of like, am I reading my Bible? Am I looking to it as a legalistic list of do's and don'ts? Mhmm. If I am, then Proverbs feels really weird. Other than well, if I am, it it makes a lot of sense because it's like, well, this is the extended do's and don'ts. You've got the law, and then you've got well, make sure you're not a sluggard, and make sure you're not all these things. But, like, if I'm not thinking of it that way and I'm thinking about my bible as an expression of the living word of God as he allows his identity to be shown through these books and through these writings and the living word, right, I I I struggle with that even more then because, like, I just I don't know how to take these in. Okay. So so a couple things to ponder. I would actually one of the books you mentioned is even more difficult. Like, what is Song of doing? Just like love poems. Right. Is there anything in there that tells me something that I otherwise did not know factually? No. No, I don't think so. No. It's a core piece of theology that you can tie back to However, Song of

it upends how you think about God, like the character of God and how he sees his relationship with the world. Like it fulfills us something that like we would be, it feels scandalous to even think about for God to relate to people in that way as a picture. Right? And so it does, it tells me something. Right? Yeah. So again, a Song of Songs is not it's not a rule book at all. Like, it's not telling me any it's not saying do this, don't do this. Like,

we'd like to go, oh, I'm supposed to delight my wife's breasts. Okay. I mean, go ahead. But like, it's not a rule that says if you do not delight in them today Exactly. Yes. It's a problem. So I also want you to think about, think now move to the Psalms and think about David's imprecatory prayers. What he's praying against, bash their heads on the rocks. Is that the word of God saying what David said is correct? You should pray that people have their heads bashed on the rocks and their children killed and whatever. No, it's again, the Psalms are not necessarily,

are not always a prescription on this is right. It is a reflection of things that David is praying. And his relationship to God. That's correct. And oftentimes you'll see things that are happening. And this is where people that contest with the Bible sometimes contest with it wrong. There's plenty of things you want to haggle with God about. Go ahead. But sometimes they're like, it's in the Bible, I can't believe God affirmed that. I'm like, I didn't affirm that, it just exists. It's a thing that happened. And so like, I am not uncomfortable at all looking at the Proverbs and going, God gave wisdom to this man. They collected the wisdom of this man. Some of that wisdom, I don't have any particular reason to go, yes, God ordained that wisdom. Right. God ordained, it is collected.

We do have a vision of how Solomon sees the world. Some of the things the way that Solomon is talking, you actually get some you get some deeper wisdom by watching him the things that you know that happen in his life. Right. That's what they say. Yes. That have nothing to do with the relationship with God necessarily. Yeah. Right? Right. Now I also don't have a problem with practical wisdom being available in God's word. Are we not living do I not have to live a human life? Do I not run into human circumstances and problems and things where, like, if another man who has gone through some of these things has wisdom in how it's like, what's our show? Is that now we're not scripture. Right. Like, you wouldn't you would go, oh, well, that's interesting to hear how people facing these same types of things have gone through it just like it's interesting to see ways that David has done it without otherwise having to say it's god's prescription on how it is to be done. Right. And that's fair. And I think that that one of the pieces that I was trying to think through was we have I mean, there's there's accounts in, I mean, Chronicles and Samuel and Kings that talk about books that are not a part of the Bible. Right? Like, there there are are accounts of wars that are happening and kings that are going on and things like that that are talked about within biblical scripture but are not considered to be a part of biblical scripture, and as I'm thinking about that, knowing that this is not the sole source of literature

culturally or within the world at this time, As a matter of fact, it's a very small sampling of what actually was was either passed on oral history or was being written and compiled. Why is it that that something like this made its way into what essentially I'm gonna call the final cut of the 66 books that we consider to be the holy scriptures of God Mhmm. Versus it being something along the lines of, oh, but did not did Solomon not speak to that within his book of of Proverbs or within the compilation of his wise sayings? Yeah. But then have it be an extra biblical thing that is a cultural and societal writing or compilation of sayings that exists that wouldn't be a part of of the holy text that we consider to be the the compiled bible of the 66 books that we have. I I don't know that it's a necessary distinction. That's That's fair. Right. Like, what do we have? Like, the the the Torah for what it is is it's largely historical documents Exactly. Right. About god's interaction with people. It tells me things about people. It tells me things about That was not originally written down at all. Right. Right. It's an oral history. Right? Could you chuck that off and say or actually take first and second Kings, first and second Samuel Samuel. Right? Chronicles.

Could you go, well, this this is history of Israel stuff. Of course. Most of it is. Could go through the whole book of Samuel and there's there's not actually a there's there are very few things in which you meditate on and go, this is for me. Right. Yes. These are battles. God, will you hand them over? Yes. He will. God, will you hand them over? No. He won't. Yeah. Is this person selected by God? Great. Did they do something awful? Yes. They did. Right. It's a history that So it's interesting. So think of it like if you were to follow God's people around for a thousand years and every once in a while you took a Polaroid. Right? Right. Yes. Right. Is a cataloging of an interaction between goddess and people of which we are made privy to. Do I this is this gets interesting. Is that, like, are some of the book of the Jewish wars or, like, the book of the was it Jasher or, like, whatever the other things that are that are mentioned, are we missing it? Should I think that my scriptures are incomplete because it's not there? No, because I think not

because it may not be very, very similar to second Chronicles. God did not make sure that that was retained. Right. I don't care. Yep. Right. I don't know. But but we shouldn't necessarily think that they are of a wholly different substance. That book of Jasher may be the exact same thing as second Chronicles. Mhmm. It's a picture of God's interaction with his people. Right. Largely through Jewish history. Oh, he he saved something. He made sure that the church had something as a reference. I don't feel like I'm missing something but I also don't have any reason to believe that like those books are wholly different as a thing that they're trying to solve. Right. Right? And so, but do I trust that God made sure that when we look at something that has been codified and that we're working with the same thing,

do I trust that God handled that? Well, if I trust that he led the person to write it, the information to be retained, then I trust that it's been codified in such a way that sweat it. Yeah. But I think we gotta be cautious about overprescribing. Did second Chronicles fall from heaven? No. No. No. He had people remembered over hundreds of years and then a dude wrote it down. There was a giant kingdom that was keeping track of the things that was happening. As the kingdom was being established through all of these battles and all of these pieces that were were essentially coming from god's chosen family and people as he was revealing himself to the world and and giving them his name to carry and his standard to walk with. Yeah. Yes. Agree. So so I think it's it's it's actually a very interesting question because, like, you we should be able to probe that because what I'm saying, my my life should be based upon this giant book. Right. I think that's ultimately a little bit wrong way to frame it. Like, it is a revealing. It's a revealing of God's interaction with his people. It's a story of him, his creation,

how he interacts with it, its redemption. Not every story is a prescription on how you should behave. Not every story reflects humans in the way that they should. But I'd say there's a good chunk of the stories that are in those history books that God is not even particularly condoning how people have behaved. Right. Right? But it is what happened. Yes. It reveals how people think. Well, when I was thinking think about those the stories Twice, twice someone took a vengeful act on David's behalf.

I killed the guy who killed this guy. Or the guy remember the second dude, Saul says kill me and the guy does it. And then he tells David, and David goes, what were what were you thinking? Yeah. And then he kills that guy. Right. And you're like, well, I mean, Saul told Saul told him to. And so, like, these are Isn't this Armbrun? No. No. Armbrun killed himself. But here's what happens, though. Like, you don't get the voice of God that shows up and sorts it out for you and go, you know David was correct. He should have done that. Or like Like a Morgan Freeman narrator there. Right. Or David should have taken it easy on this guy. He was just doing what his king told him to. He doesn't show up in the narrative like that. No. And so if the Bible were like a prescriptive moral code in all the places that we're looking for, I would have expected God to insert himself in places like but he doesn't. And so it's weird because like, if you're hearing me talk about this, I'm trying to make the case to you that scripture is not as easy as you think, but it's also not as complicated as you're gonna try to make it be. Like, it is what it is. It is a preserved codification of the interaction between God and his people and God and humanity as a whole over time that reveals things about him and about us. You should accept it as that. But like anytime we try to box it at any further than that, I think you start to run risk. So let me ask you a bigger question then, if it's okay to do so, because as I've tried to understand my Bible and have tried to understand scriptures like Proverbs and like Song of Songs or Song of Solomon or whatever it is, I think one of the questions that I've always asked myself and I've I thought was trying to be an an astute studier or or being studious as I as I go through and learn about my god

has always been the question of where is Jesus in this text? Mhmm. Mhmm. And not necessarily from the perspective of, like, I don't see his name, but I should feel his hands here. Right? Like, don't I don't feel necessarily that far from it, but, like, as as I'm understanding the the the larger narrative of my bible of creation, fall, God redeeming people through a long woven story of a peoples that he decided to be his his bear his name. Right? Then through lineage and, I mean, persecution and and exile and all these different moves, prophecy, stories that that lead towards this Jesus that is the fulfilling of his his

ultimate covenants, all of the ones that he decide that he put upon us. Yep. And then this Jesus taking on all of the curses of each one of these covenants so that God can redeem the relationship with us, and then how do we act as people in the kingdom after that redemption has happened? Mhmm. And after that that that covenant has been fulfilled, the curses have been taken on by Christ, we were never actually subject to the consequences that for generation upon generation, God said you will be subject to the consequences. How am I to take a book like Proverbs or Song of Songs? Mhmm. And and am I even am I asking the right question in looking towards how is this leading me to God? How is this leading me to Jesus?

Am I asking that? Is that a wrong question to ask? Am I circling the right thought? Am I you know, many other things. Yeah. And then you feel free to jump in whenever you want. But but like, I would say not I think we misunderstand scripture if we're looking for salvation in every piece of it. Fair. Okay. And which is interesting because like, have the I have the ESV study bible and it's got at every part of the introduction of every book, it's got history of salvation. Oh. And so but they they it it it stretches. It's stretching on proverbs. It's stretching on imagine. Yeah. Yeah.

Here's what I think is true though. It's it's it's cyclical in my mind or or at least bidirectional. People, I think if you started with the old Testament, contextually, it helps you understand what Jesus is doing. Right. Right? Does it mean that every story has Jesus in it? No. Does it mean that every story is pointing you to your need for rescue and salvation? No. Because God is not complete. He's not impractical. He created you to live on the earth. His whole focus isn't to have his relationship with you just so it can be somewhere else outside of the earth. Like, he created a good earth that he said it was good. And so like, there's a practicality to it that I think we obfuscate by looking for salvation at every reference. It's just not there. However, I would also say that like, contextually, if you started with Jesus,

you understand it's like his need, you understand what he's doing, like, you understand it deeper of what he's after by watching the human struggle in his absence. Right. You know what I'm saying? And so like, I think there's a right thing that goes, how does, in light of Jesus, how do I understand what I just How does it shift and change the things that Solomon is struggling with? Would it be different with the knowledge of Jesus? Would it shift? I think it's a healthy exercise because it helps you understand Jesus But I do think it is too narrow

to look for Jesus under every rock and under every verse. I think it's not particularly helpful. And I think actually it sometimes covers up the things we're supposed to understand about humans or even about the direction of Yahweh's interaction with his people because stands on its own, right? Early Jews know, they understand Jesus because they understand the real testament. So not to overuse the word, but it's a privileged position to go, Jesus is under every rock. I think as a fulfilling of the narrative, it reopens and deepens what you read, but it doesn't mean that it's hiding everywhere. I don't know, Dan, what are your thoughts there? Well, I think I think that the idea comes from an overly cleverer preacher trying to put Jesus in every text. Uh-huh. I asked, you know, Jesus is in Genesis, blah blah blah, know, and then they go through the thing and then he's just like, I mean, yeah, but no. I mean, I mean, everything Ben said. I mean, I mean, it's yeah. Yeah. And I've fallen into that. I've definitely been in a place where as I'm teaching, I've tried to be like, where are we finding Jesus in this piece? Where I mean, there's years ago. Now I would look at that and go, I don't really know if that's the important narrative that I I thought it was at the time. Yeah. Like, some people say Song of Solomon is all about Jesus, and I'm like, no. No. It was a guy who was married and just with boobs. I mean, it's a you know, it's He was excited about a a a beautiful relationship that god allowed him to have through He great doesn't have, you know, 900 of them. You know what mean? He's

Is that right? That's the truth. Well, so like, so take for example, the guys from the Bible Project will say, we believe the scripture is a unified story that points to Jesus. I agree with that. Yeah. Yeah. Right. And I think that's still fair. But that's not the same thing as every, you know, cut up section in every chapter of a book go, how is Jesus in here? I'm like, he's not. In fact, his absence is a real problem in this area. God's not even mentioning That's a that's a very interesting way to put that. Yeah. Absolutely. Because, like, you I mean, you could get caught in some serious, like, lengthy position or parts of your old testament where you're like, is I mean, I appreciate what's happening here, but we're on, like, chapter three Yeah. Of, like, straight, these are the singers, and and, like, these are the ones who play this instrument and stuff like that. And, like, naturally, there's a there's a larger narrative of, like, what did that mean culturally from the perspective of these are god's peoples, and this is the stuff that they're doing as a part of their daily life being within this this group of people that are identified by Yahweh, right? But like, I don't know if I'm gonna read through a list of and go, man, Jesus really is present here. Flutists.

Flutists, whatever. Sorry. Here's what I would say. I I was just making a flauters joke, like the Mexican like, you know, Mexican food. I'm the only person here you don't explain that. I love me a flauta. So so here's what here's my my encouragement to you is, like, you're gonna find, not just you, but, like, in general. Got it. As you as you go through your scripture reading, you're gonna come across the lens every so often and you're like, wow, that really opens up the place. You should embrace that, but embrace it as a yes and to steal from my boss at work. It's a yes and. Yes, do these things point to Jesus? Yes, And also probably something else. And, oh, wow. I've never thought about curses. It's really blowing my mind. Yes, maybe. And it also probably points you to Jesus. And it's also a lesson in human ignorant behavior. Like It has to have context in that piece too. Yes. There's one key that unlocks the depths of scripture. You're gonna find lenses that are just gonna keep making it deeper and deeper and embrace that without making it feel like it has to be so singular and restrictive. I think there's no reason to box God in and box scripture in that way. Be open to like,

I was looking ten years ago, I was thinking about this and it blew my mind. And then now I saw this and now it's reopening up like, yes. And still the other thing that blew your mind and something else five years from now. Praise god for it cuts like an onion. Yeah. Absolutely. It's like the world was created in California. And ever since California went down the tubes, he says god says, I'm gonna I'm gonna have you start driving this car tow towards New York. Right? The the arc of the of the of the trip is to get you to New York across the whole United States. Ticket to ride. Yeah. 10 trains. You're gonna ticket you're gonna ticket to ride to The United State or all the way across The United States to New York. Yeah. And that's where the vindication is gonna be found. But along the way, you're gonna have to go through Idaho and Montana and Iowa and whatever. And, like, it would be a misunderstanding of the trip to go Iowa is a long road to New York. Okay. The mountains the mountains found in Montana are the mountains of New York. Right? Like, you've basically, like, boiled the trip down to its end and what it's pointing to, and it's all good and right because that is the direction Right. You still have take narrative is pointing to. Yeah. Like, we have a fall where humanity couldn't cut it, and and god says, I have to provide a rescue. So, like, this is the road map to the rescue, but that does not mean that god is not present and there's not things happening and, like, even even the the rest stop in the middle of of Illinois can't stand on its own as being significant. It's just not the the the overarching direction. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Good. Okay. Okay. Alright. Asked and answered. Let's hey. Do you have any questions for ask the pastor? Hit us up at the Live From Path complaint line.

Okay. The Live From The Path complaint line. I thought of some quick some quick questions. Okay. One, did god ever actually talk to David? Did God talk to David? Yes. Well, there are places where I think it's ambiguous because God would say like, he would ask the ephod. He would ask the ephod or he would say, God, will you deliver this to me? And God's it'll say God's response was blah blah blah, but it doesn't particularly say Through a prophecy. How he answered and what way he answered. Yeah. Okay. Are there any are there any not proverbs. Yeah. Are there any proverbs that

directly go against biblical law? There are yes. I'd have to look. There are proverbs that well, that are at least contentious with each other. Yep. I'd have to I'd have to look it up. Maybe let's pick that up like contentious proverbs for 200. Okay. Next week. Yeah. I can do that. I'm literally reading it every day. So Also, it it occurred to me that, like, we were talking about lenses that, like, the book of Proverbs, anything involving David

and the Song of Solomon all provide, like, very different aspects of of places that you like. If you're if you're just reading the Mosaic Law, it's very dry. Right? Like, it's very black and white. And then the human experience is not that way. And then here comes, like, David. He's a highly emotional character. Right? He has huge swaths of up and down and and laments and celebrations and whatever. And, like, here comes this character that you like.

Up to that point, it was basically stories like, here's here's what happened. You know? And then, like, David seems to bring in a lot of emotion into it, and and, like, that's a lot of the Psalms are that way. Mhmm. And then the Proverbs are like straight wisdom. It's not here's the law. It's here's the interpretation of what the output might look like in your life. Right? And so, like, here's here's how that would start to to filter through. And then you get, like, the Ecclesiastes guy who's, like, kind of the same vein, but he's kinda It's all smoke. He's a real downer. Like, he's a real critic of things. You know? But, anyway, like, if you start, if you put all those books together, like, especially in the way that they're presented to us, like, it is a very it just brings a very dimensional way of Yahweh's interaction both with the world and then the human experience living on God's creation, like, of how it's just got a lot of depth to it. Yeah. You know, like and without those books, I don't know that you would have the same

like like, sometimes, like, you feel like even as you're walking as a Christian, you're like, it shouldn't be this way. I shouldn't feel this way. I shouldn't feel so dejected or so frustrated or so, like, my life is not going the way that it should. And then, like, you have the biblical example of David who's, like, I'm calling your name and you are nowhere to be found. Yeah. You know? And, like, it's almost like a small bolster of, like, well, David struggled with the same thing. Yeah. Maybe I'm not so far out of line here. You know? Like, it needs to be corrected. Like, the course gets corrected throughout David's life in in most ways, but, like, still, like, without those words of comfort or wisdom in there, like, you're just missing on, like, a huge part of god's character and your your own where he's saying, look, I know you're gonna struggle in this way. Like, a guy after my own heart struggled in this way. Yep. So be comforted, son, that I know that this is part of the the fallen world that you're currently living in. Yeah. Okay. You're listening to Life From The Path. Again, if you haven't asked the pastor, it's Life From The Path. Bob Eisner complaint line, (515) 517-0085.

You can call or send a text or an emoji or an animated GIFY or however you communicate with the world. We we can we can take it in at the Life From The Path. (515) 517-0085. We'd love to be able to hear from you. Let's Mike, let's give out some advice. Don't send us a Giffy. Send to me a Giffy. Okay. Ready? Dear life from the path. Hello. My husband has, for years, felt the need to talk filthy and ask sexual sexual questions of other women. Woah. Of other women? Me something terrible. To them? Yeah. He's upset that I ruined his, quote, fun, and he insists he isn't hurting anyone, that he likes to to he likes being the life of the party. We have fought over this for years, and I'm exhausted from it. I told him I don't see the need for him to do this, and he continues to tell me I need to quit being so unreasonable. I don't know what to do, and I'm ready to just give up. It doesn't make me love or respect him. I actually loathe him when he does. Please help. Repelled in Iowa. Oh, god. In our own backyard, boys. This is happening here. Oh, dear. Okay. So this fella's making, like, sexual comments towards other ladies at parties? He's the perv of the party? No one thinks he's the life of the party. No one everyone thinks he's the creep of the party and wishes he wasn't around. This is where Bob Russell has the thing nailed. This guy's drinking.

Yeah. He talks filthy and asks sexual questions. No. He's impressed. No. Okay. Stop it. I've met a few fellows like this. Uh-huh. Alright. They're gross. We're talking to you, Chad. Yeah. Chad, you're gross. Not you, but we're talking to a Dan. Mhmm. Okay? Not not the Dan in this room, but there's a Dan. Okay. And I wish Dan watched this show so he could know that I'm talking about him Yeah. Admittedly. This is you. There's Dan Dan, I'm talking to you. You're terrible and creepy, and nobody likes what it is. Yeah. And, like, I don't know. I'm interested. It doesn't really matter that much what the person's age is that does this because, like, I don't I I've only met

that kind of social creepy person that's either, like, 60 fella that, like, I don't know if he was, like, military guy or or whatever surroundings, like, what whatever you wanna call it, or, like, creepy college dude that, like, is this way as well. Yeah. But, like, creepy college dude is definitely not harmlessly doing this for sure because they're just trying to see how many avenues that they can walk down. Creepy old guy may just be trying to relive a life that he used to live of, like, promiscuity or whatever. Regardless of the reasoning,

everyone is uncomfortable by it. Yeah. And the people that aren't uncomfortable by it and are buying into it are hurt people that they think that that's the only worth that they have. That's the bigger deal for me is the fact that if you can get people at this party to buy into your filthy talk and being gross and blah blah blah. One, they don't respect themselves. Two, they don't respect you. Three, they don't respect your marriage. And they're lying to me. Yeah. Yeah. And they're and, like, it's it's all it's all it's all all it's it's all It's vapor. It's it's like The guy that that shows up on the news once in a while who, like, thinks it's really a good idea to take a picture of his penis to send to some girl, and then she's like, I don't wanna see that. Right. Like, what makes you think I wanna see that? I I mean No part of that geometry makes me happy, buddy. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, no. No. They wanna see this. It's like, no. No. They don't. Don't wanna hear to the world. They don't wanna see your pictures. They don't wanna they just stop it. Unless they're a medical professional and you are showing them that you have a problem, stop it. Yeah. Yeah. And even in that situation, it's most likely not that. Yeah. And if you know a friend who's a nurse, that's not an acceptable situation. Go to the doctor. Know? I feel like dudes will definitely do this. Hey. Do you see some something wrong on here? Does that look look different to you? Oh, so you think it's alright? Yeah. Okay. No. That's perfect. So here's the problem, though, is, like, he's not saying, hey. Is this acceptable? Everybody seems to love it. His wife is asking what to do about this dude. She obviously can't do it. She's tried. But but I mean That's the yeah. That's the sad part is the fact that she's had this conversation multiple times to the point that she has to she has to categorize that she loathes this person because of this. Oh, you do. It's not a livable offense or anything. You but but you maybe just don't go with him. You'd stop going. That first order. Wait a minute. You said it's not a what offense? You don't leave the marriage on it. I said leaveable. I got what you meant. You know what I meant. Yeah. Mike, does this feel you're making a face, Mike. Do you feel as though this is a leaveable offense? Is there a contention amongst the divorce? Do want me to say it that way?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm a yeah. I'm a have to think about this. Because here's the thing. It's like there's zero honoring Yeah. Of that woman in that marriage, and I get that. And, like, that is a line I I just have a hard time believing that he's not engaged in other things. Like, I just that would be wants to be. Yeah. I think he's just a loudmouth perv. I mean, he's he's super sincere. He's probably suit like, hates himself, and this is the avenue that he he evolves in. Rodney Dangerfield. He's a pervert. There's a 100 reasons why someone could act this way, and not a single one of them is justified. Yeah. Rodney yeah. Right. Right. So this is hard. Right? Because you can't give out generalized advice because it depends on the players in the room. Right? So, like, this situation came up in our group of friends. Like, I think we would just go, I'll go talk to them. Right. It's no problem. Yeah. Yeah. We'll go we'll go straighten this out a little bit. At least have at least we get to say everything that you're afraid to say or don't feel like it'll create a situation. Like a good strong friend in your life that goes, look, man. The the this is ridiculous. Let me ask this. Okay. I I feel like this has came come up in advice before, but I don't remember where we landed. Is it inappropriate

for the wife to approach one of his friends? That's what was wondering. To ask for help. Yeah. No. Or even get the whole group. If if it's an intimate friends together, just say, hey, guys. Can we just be honest here for a second? This is this uncomfortable? Yeah. Embarrass him. I mean, he's not listening. Let but you gotta be they gotta be honest. Yeah. I I think I don't think I don't have a problem with this actually. I think if I was doing something and I I like I was being stubborn or pig headed and my wife went to one of you guys and said, hey. Can you talk I'm this I'm struggling with this. Can you go talk to Ben? Would be like, if I was in my right mind, I would be okay with that. Right, yeah, course. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Would agree with him. Even eventually you would be, even if you're not in your right mind, you would eventually go, yeah. You're right. Yeah. I mean Yes. That's right. Yeah.

In the presence of a church community here, this gets solved by church fellas talking to fellas. Yeah. In the absence of that situation, it sounds like you can talk to friends and ask them to cover that piece and go, hey. Like, you know, Don's doing some creepy stuff. And, like, he I've tried to talk to him many times, and I just I hate it so much. Does she listen to me? Does she talk to the wives or to their husbands? That's the question. Like, hey. Talk to the wife to talk to their husband? Or I wouldn't have a problem with my wife going directly to one of my friends. Yeah. I I think it's it can be risky. Yeah. Of course. It wasn't embarrassing for her too. Right? Like, this embarrassing that your husband is acting like a complete Yeah. Yeah. I the I'm I'm caught I think that's a good question. I'm cautious there. I I think maybe it'd be better to do again, if you said for what look, I'm not coming anymore. And here's I'm not coming to the parties when you're acting like this. Here's exactly why I'm not coming. You're embarrassing yourself. You're embarrassing me, and I'm not doing it. If if that does not have any reaction, I think it's okay to stage what if in effect feels like an intervention. Right. And and let the rest of his friends and speak to it. And frankly, if they back him, you're just kinda hosed.

Like How do the husbands not know about this? I don't Aren't they hearing it? Is it maybe I think they talked to the ladies. And so it's It seems like that's the deal. Yeah. That's what I took from him was that he was like punch bowl. Hey. I don't like, more punch. Women that are not associated with what I was about to say too. Yeah. Exactly. Could just be ladies at a party, and he just goes up to him be like, what's that mean? Notice she went with the slim black dress tonight, baby. Yeah. Yeah. I just I mean, I can't imagine any husband worth the salt would allow some loud mouth drunk to, like, start yapping off. Right. Cutting off the crap to the wife. Yeah. Yeah. I here's the thing. It's he's probably long overdue for a whooping. I don't know how he's he's avoided one all these years, honestly. I I don't know that, like, he far as the advice to the wife goes, I think you're right. Like, I to navigate this well, I I I would normally like, if I wanted to go talk to Ben's wife, like like, it was just gonna be her and I talking, I would just text him, hey, man. I need to stop by and talk to your wife for a minute. Like, I do that all the time. Right. Like, every random person that I'd like, if I need to talk to, like, another female, like, on their own, I I always just text her. How about your wife? Yeah. I mean, just and and I I just think that's just a a built in whatever. Like, what I there's nothing wrong with that. So and I think you can have the conversation and to not, like, gossip or, like, have to unnecessarily embarrass yourself in front of bunch of people. Right? Like, I think that's all fine. I just think you'd I mean, it's just good practice to give a heads up. Yeah. I would say that, like, don't feel like you have to. You do not have to dishonor yourself because he like to match his dishonoring of you. And so it's perfectly fine to not go. It's perfectly fine not to go down to his level. I think you gotta be cautious not to be overly punitive. Like,

it's he's a child. And so Right. Without being, like, I don't want you to dominate over your husband, but you do have access to your man in a way that no one else does. And so, it's okay to be very clear with your spouse. These are the things that I, like, I love about you. I enjoy. Here's the things that I do not. Your spouse should be able to refine you in that way. And so try not to punish him outside of the bounds of the thing that's causing the problem. Like, if he goes to a party and that you didn't attend, the punishment was that you did not attend. You don't withhold sex and sandwiches for the next two weeks in consequence to it. Like, I I would be careful that he doesn't cause you to stumble because he's being a moron.

However, I think it's perfectly fine that you can guard yourself in such a way that says, I'm not going to follow you down this crass and ugly hole. Secular's advice? Boob is pondering whether she should withhold sex and sandwiches. No. Not at all. Okay. No. I At least not sandwiches. Yeah. No. Definitely not sandwiches. No. It's it's it's interesting because, like, as I'm trying to think through what I would say to this person who's asking us for advice, my advice to someone that's not in the church is very different than my advice to someone that's within the church, right, that has a relationship with Christ because

the from the perspective of I have a relationship and, like, my my father or my my husband and I are are are Christ following and are within the kingdom of stuff like that, there's really two offenses here. There there's the offense between you and your husband that is is important to talk about, but there's also the offense between your husband and his father, his king. Like, that's there's a sin problem here as well. It's not just the affronting between you and him in the relationship. There's a there's a disconnection that sin causes that that is also a part, and to be not necessarily harsh, but trying to be truthful is more important. That is the the disconnect between him and his god than the disconnect between you and him, And, like, that's the thing that needs addressing for sure,

whether that's by you within the marriage of being open to your husband and recognizing that, like, hey. Like, this is this is a problem because there's lustful sin and desire behind this that we need to talk about on top of the fact that you're dishonoring me in our marriage, and then also bringing that to a church community to go, like, not only am I being affronted as the wife of a man who is very clearly lusting or whatever realm you wanna call it when it comes to these kind of lewd comments and things like But, like, there is there is a person who is who is who is openly sitting and rebelling here that needs to have that brought to heel as well. Mhmm. And that's a bigger part of the conversation of you may not look at me and go, this is super important every time that I tell you I don't want you to do this because it's making me uncomfortable, but you are sinning against your God openly, and that's the more important piece that you need to get your heart to align to. That's what you need to bring to heel, and that's what we need to keep most certainly focused on, and hitting that like a friggin' I mean, a comment to it with prayer and with with running to God with this kind of stuff because this kind of sin is I mean, it's just poison. 's absolutely internal poison,

and yeah. So that's that's what I was pondering to say. Segler says, mhmm. It's sad that your husband will continue to do something he knows embarrasses you. You can't change him, so it's time to change the way you react to his outrageous behavior. Try ignoring him and distancing yourself when it happens. It would be interesting to know how his questions affect the women he's asking. Do they consider him to be the life of the party or just a possible drunken boar? Because you have already talked to him until you're blue in the face, start talking to them. Perhaps if you present a united front, he will stop. Okay. I did think the the the reason I was laughing is I thought of the situation where he goes up and tells something crass or something, and then she just hands immediately hands them like a card or something that says, can you fill this out and tell me just just fill it out. Do you feel like, your name, first name, and do you feel comfortable? What was your reaction to that? And just, like, follow the guy around and then just continue to build evidence next to him. We'd like to report this. Yeah. You're creeping him out. Hey. Oh, I heard what he just said. This is my husband. He's I'm embarrassed of him. I thought that was crass and wrong. Can you fill this out real quick? I just I'm collecting evidence. He doesn't seem to believe this is a problem. That's bullcrap. He knows it's a problem. Oh, of course, he does. He thinks it's hilarious. Right. Right. Exactly. Right. He thinks Either that or he's just freaking cast in a wide net trying to make something happen or trying to feel something and be fulfilled with this. I I think he wouldn't be able to handle it if something happened. Agreed. Yeah. Yeah.

That's that's that's the most of the most of the dudes in the world Yeah. With their braggadocio stupid comments. Yeah. And then if a good looking lady turned for five seconds and goes, okay, man. Let's let's get together. You're a dog chasing a car, and you have no idea what to do when you get it. He'd wet himself. That is a number one that is a number one cure for me if I'm having, like, a problem someday, and I'm like, hey, baby. You know, I think, okay. What if she says yes? I'm like, well, I'm I have no intention. I mean, like, no. Yeah. So I kinda like, oh, never mind. No. This is weird. Yeah. Horrible. How dare you, Jezebel, get away.

I'm married. I that's right. I know what you've birthed Babylon from. Get out of here. I'm not attracted to ladies who would respond to my catcalls. Exactly. I just like to assume you all love me. My life is an ironic conundrum. That is funny. Right? Because, like, so many dudes who got like, they talk this big game. They're like, they're not only looking or, like, fantasizing about things that they were never capable like, would never cross their paths, but they're also imagining themselves as a different person actually doing it because they have zero, like, swagger doing it. Suave grabbing the lady in a Fabio book. Like, it's not happening. I don't know how many times that, like I don't know. I get a new pair of pants or something. I get a haircut, something like that. And I I get put on stuff on, and I look in the mirror, and I go, oh, well then, that's that's humbling. Yeah. I really I really thought these three things that just happened might have really upped this game, but it did not. See, my problem is is I don't go, oh, crap. That didn't work. I go, this is what the lord made today. Yeah. You'll hide your wives.

Old boys need the house. I get a haircut, and I'm like, oh, lord. You put some some pizzazz on it today. That's what you did. Okay. Last one. Yep. Dear life from the past. My daughter is the youngest kid in the neighborhood, and a girl up the street treats her horribly. Mhmm. She calls her a baby, tells her she's not a person, and sends her home when everybody plays at her house. The other kids are friendly with my daughter, and when they come to play at our house, the mean girl comes too. She's never mean to my daughter when I'm around, but I don't think it's right to let her enjoy our pool and games when she won't let my daughter play at her house. How do I ask her to leave without seeming like a bully while allowing the other kids to stay and play? The other mother is of no help. Okay. This is weird as it juxtaposes against the previous Yeah. Set of advice. Yeah. Because the question is, is that, like, dirty old craftsman,

you have a reckoning and you say, I hold you accountable. He's no better. Yes. An eight year old child. The question with this girl now, I mean, if if if if the description is being believed, she obviously has control of it if she doesn't do it around the mom. But it doesn't mean, like, the type of kid who's, like, cruel in such a way and manipulative about it and to a mom who does not from a mom who does not care, that tells you something. Right. And so like, I I just it is my belief and this is a little bit of Ben's twenty first century to 20 blindness here. But like, I do believe people will live up to your expectations of them if you can encourage them to do so. Like most people

are far more inclined to live up to a good version of themselves that you seem to believe than they are to be rightly rendered and judged upon and expect to bounce back under their own accord. I just I I think that's true with people who don't have nefarious intent, but who are products of their environment or ignorance. Yeah. Those people will live up to your to like, it's just I don't know if you guys ever had this, but, like, someone who just seems to see you in a light that is way better than, you know, like, you know, you're like, I'm not that. I know I'm not. How have I fooled this person? But when they're in the room,

you tend to live up to the thing that they believe about you. You you like, oh, he's such a nice boy. He always compliments. And then you walk into the room to this lady the next time he's here, and you're you find yourself complimenting things better than you would two hours ago because someone thought up of you. That's my marriage. Yes. There it is. In this way, in this way, you act like a real raccoon in here. It's because we're not doing the same thing. Yeah. You guys don't hold me to a higher standard. You normally break me down. Yes. Okay. Alright. It's not working, Mike. We gotta change our ways of movement. We're, like, fifteen years into this. Anyway The only yeah. Oh, has this changed the way we talk to the perv then? No. No. Absolutely not. No. Because Well, then whatever. I'm trying to think change the way we're gonna talk to the perv? It's possible both my daughters had situations like this, but they were kids at school, not anybody in the neighborhood, which may have changed what I would think. Because at some point, I thought, you know, this is just this is called life. You're gonna work with people who are, you know, jerks. You're gonna I mean Amen. You just learn to get along, and and you would gotta ignore. You gotta ignore them when they're calling you a not a person or all the stuff. You don't have it means you don't have to hang out, but let me know if they're best quickly in that list. What's that? It escalated so quickly in that list. It was you're a baby. You're not a person. You're not a person. Well, you're a baby non person.

But, you know, so somewhere that you gotta toughen up yourself so you can learn to live in this environment. At this then I'd bring them invite them all over, and I've had them watch Mean Girls, like, every day, especially the last scene. And just this is what happens to the mean girls. This is what happens. And then maybe I'll This be could be you of Dan. I I own a bus. I Did someone get hit by a bus of mean girls? Now I don't wanna ruin it. Okay. I'm not. Okay. Is there any so is there any situation in which you was you feel it's appropriate for the parent to step in and talk to this girl? I think that would escalate things. Yeah. No. That's gonna make it worse. They don't care about you. Not like that. Right? I think to Ben's point, like, you parent them like you parent your own kid. Right? So, like, if they start acting a fool and mean, then, like, it's all it's all about controlling yourself. Right? Like, not being, like, blown around by the winds of of of small children or even bad parenting, like, that lets you get caught up and match their energy of ridiculousness.

Yeah. Right? So, like, when someone says, hey. Sandra says that I'm not a person. Are you a person? Yes. Well, then Sandra's not right. Yeah. So I guess Think about that. You know? Or, like, she comes over and, like, maybe she behaves herself when she gets there. Or maybe when when they all pile in, you say, look, ladies. I need to talk to you real quick before we start the day. Look. The general rules around here is, like, we treat people with respect. And so if you feel like you can't do that or I noticed that you're struggling doing that, I'm gonna ask you to rethink the way that you're acting. And if you can't fall in line with it, then we'll just have to ask you to not hang around until you're ready to to give it to program. You know? And, like, if you set the expectations on the way out in a calm, concise manner, not run over by your emotions or your Yeah. Perceived hurt from your daughter. Yep. Right? Like, that's how you would parent your own kid at the situation. Love them enough to treat them like one of your own kids, and I get to leave their mistakes at the door. And then you get to deal with your daughter and, like, the way that she talks to them around their friends or around over at her house, like, whatever. Like, we gotta stop feeding in to, like, this righteous indignation about everything. Yeah. Right? Some things are just things, and you go, look. You're obviously not a baby, and you're obviously a person. And so, like, I like, she's trying to make you upset. So, like, you can either take the bait or you can go, well, I mean, until she's done, like, degrading me, maybe I don't wanna hang over there anyway. You know? Like, stop trying to be upset about everything or find little mini justice. Like, some things are just not what they're supposed to be, and we just move on.

Yeah. I'm sorry, Mike. I wasn't laughing at what you're saying. I was thinking to myself how funny it would be if secular's advice was to go beat up the mom. Mike, since you can't hit the kid, go beat the crap out of the mom. Go find Janice. Give her the old The unhelpful mother. It's especially true with kids. Like, this situation like, there you get to start creating boundaries for adults in your life that act this way. Like, because they're they're destructive, and they can actually tear whole cities down with their behavior. Mhmm. But kids, right, I I mean, if you obviously can look and say, this house, we're we're better parents than everybody else. We know how to raise kids. Well, then raise that one. Right? Help that one if you've got this all figured out. Right? Actually, I think that's there's a good encouragement in that in that, like, if it's your house and your family and people are over, like, it's totally fine. You may be giving them something that they never get. Yep. Someone who cares enough to say, hey. I'm not gonna let you harm yourself or harm others or act like a buffoon in here. Like, I the the presumption is is that the kid's gonna stomp their feet and get mad and steal your liquor and go home. And maybe they will. But, like or,

like, they're you're treating them like a human being. Hey. Like, I'm gonna I care enough about you to interact with you in this way. I don't know that I ever really like, I'm pretty loose with kids in general, but, like, I really don't care who your kid is. The kid is at my house And, like, I people tend to come over and start teaching my youngest kid bad things. It's funny. Things that you let not like like terrible things, but things you laugh at when your parents aren't around, you get the little kid to do it because he's the littlest one around anymore. And, like, okay. My kids do the same thing. And so I would say, hey, man. Don't don't pervert that kid. He's still innocent. You knock it off. Go talk about something else. I probably said that to every set of kids I've ever met who's been at my house. Hey. Don't pervert that kid. That's not good stuff to talk about. Go talk about something else. Yeah. Okay. Like, what do I have no reason to allow people to act foolish. But, like, to Mike's point, like, I don't not mad at your children. I'm I don't feel like, show them. Take that kid. I'm just like, it's the same thing I would say to everybody. And, yeah, you don't don't hold a vendetta against a child. And but but feel free to guide them in the ways that are right. Yeah. Where you need to correct is when you see say the phrase, I don't think it's right to let her enjoy our pool and games when she won't let my daughter play at her house. That's not the point. Like, you're gonna you're gonna try to teach your daughter how to do life generously and correctly, and you just as well teach that other kid too while she's over at your place if you feel like you got this nailed. Yeah. So, yeah, I would just you need to look at that kid way different. Yep.

Segler says, I I assume the other mother is aware that her daughter refuses to allow your daughter to play at her house with the other kids. Because she hasn't intervened, the ball's in your court. Teach your daughter a lesson in assertiveness. The next time the bully shows up, your daughter should tell the girl she's not welcome and why. I to be honest with you, I'd let I'd put it in my kid's court and say, what what do you want me to do here? Right? Do you want them to come over, or do you wanna tell them the what fur? And if they say, we're gonna tell them the what fur, then I'd have to then it's a teaching moment with your kid. You go, okay. So you can do that. Like, it's an option, but let's look at the situation that she's in. Right? Let's let's look at at at her behavior and and why you think she's acting the way she is, and then let's see if we we still feel the same way. Because, right, if you're asking me as your dad, I'm leaning towards let's invite her over and and love her well. And we won't let her get away with stuff here, but, like, let's invite her over. She can use a pool. Yeah. I think it's okay to accept that, like, that is often the case. People, depending on what environment they're in, they they tend to adapt to it. If you run a I don't even wanna say a tighter ship, but, like, one that demands that people treat each other well and she can do that here, what does it tell me? It tells me that other environment isn't serving her well. And so what do you learn? Like, what do you teach her? What do you gain positively for you and for the world by saying, you know what? I'm gonna cut off access to that good environment. Why don't you go to punish you, go to the place where you're the biggest jerk and sit in it over there? Like, it's not your job to rescue the whole world necessarily and and, like, reparent everybody, but for heaven's sake, man, they're walking right in. And especially at the age that you're talking about, like, we're not near as worried about this. Find me when they're, like, early teenage years or whatever, and some people are starting to borderline creepy or some people are borderline violent. Like, it's a different discussion. But the discussion that you're having, I I I don't see any risk here. Yeah.

Alright. You're listening live from the path. Maybe you disagree with that. I don't know. Have you run into situations like this? As con contested things between you and the children of the neighborhood and other parents who won't cooperate. What have you done? It's always the kid where you're like, you never go, I don't understand it. That house is just such a warm welcoming environment. It's never that guy. No. Like, it's always the one where you're like, yeah. I don't know. Right. You understand it. You got some sympathy. You're like, you know what? I've met your mom. I get it. Like, I I totally understand. Always is. And so, like, honestly, once again, like, it's not legalism. You're taking in a whole situation and going, what's going on here? It's just putting a little thought into it is all. Yeah. I I you know, it's the same thing you would wanna do for your kids in general. Like, you give them options. Hey, man. Here's the terms of which you can come and enjoy the place. You accept the terms or not. If the answer is no, well, then you can't be here. Like, you can't bully other people here. You can't mistreat my kid here. You can't steal my liquor or non alcohol the old duals or whatever it is you have. Like, that's not allowed. If you can abide by those things, enjoy the pool. And I think nothing of it. And I don't not gonna, like, I got my eye on you all the time. Like, welcome. This is what happens when you abide by the rules. Yeah. I think I think it once again, I think it's the the theme of the day for me is, like, it's putting your your feelings or perceptions as if they're the only person that gets to drive the car. Like, you're hurt on your daughter's behalf because she's being mistreated at somebody else's house. Yeah. As a parent, that sucks, and nobody wants to hear that. Right? But, like, you have zero reason

to put your vindictive emotion in the driver's seat against an eight year old girl. Right. Right? That just don't make any sense. Yeah. What what people intend for evil, like, give them the old Jesus judo, turn around and use it for good with more power than what they started at you. Like, it changes the world. And, like, through through Jesus is you're capable of doing it. And so I I think it's the time to to make it happen. You've been listening to Life From The Path. Again, if you got any comments or feedback or questions for us to show, hit the Bob Eisenhower Life From The Path Complete line five one five five one seven zero zero eight five. Call or text. We'd love to hear from you. We will, I don't know, fire up a show sometime soon. I'm sure, in the meantime, be faithful in the means. God will handle the ends. You've been listening to live.