live from the pathway studios in johnston proper you are live from the path my name is who's that guy who the guy that you're not showing oh sorry it's you dan you usually sit over there you told me to move you said it looks cooler over here i'm not saying it doesn't hold on i'll get this taken care of hey you're listening live from the path thanks for joining us here on this monday evening it's good to have you i'm man fist no one no one is going to refer to you as man fist you

should start it's just not going to happen hey uh i've got a good show for you this week uh so here's what we're going to be talking about um we're going to talk about dropping the effie dropping the f-bomb this is our favorite topic as a christian man i do like it uh because i i think it's uh in some parts it's it's very important in some parts i find it extremely petty on some parts i think it's a uh i think it's a revelation of the heart and where you are with christ in some parts i think

it's not a judgment like that at all that's why i like talking about it you sound like uh you're running for president i might i might run for president i'm completely for uh something i've been against i'm against it's it's it's a nuanced discussion and and it's interesting to me how far things can go on either direction of it so anyway we're going to we're going to talk about dropping an effie and this is this comes from another facebook discussion we saw right mike yeah yeah i did i was

surfing around and uh there was a a band that's a good friend of the show and they had posted some stuff and just asked the question and uh what had happened was is that a band called pod uh who is they're not a christian genre band uh but they're christian fellas and uh i actually respected them uh for quite a while you know with uh with the message they generally put out it's generally uh counter-cultural to what most of the other bands in their genre put out and uh they've released

a song uh recently that had the uh it had the effie in it and it's got the christian uh community up in arms people are upset said it was uh unnecessary unneeded and uh uh it wasn't the right thing to do uh to represent christ okay so we're gonna get to that in just a couple minutes other things going on uh we are on uh week 10 of uh of our uh going through the 50 proofs are you gonna are you gonna call me man fist or not i don't i don't think so if dan will do it i'll do it

dan i'm in okay dan's in i'm sitting right next to him i have to okay so we'll man fist me so so when you want to pass it over just say man uh back to you man fist go ahead i'm not passing it over yet and so we're gonna be on god is imaginary.com uh so here's here's a basic premise of this guy he's gone through and he's provided what he feels are 50 proofs that god is imaginary uh we're on week 10 so we're going through proof number 10 which is called watch the offering plate this one should

be tasty this is my favorite topic as well i like the fe and money those are my two favorite things to talk about uh so so we'll see where he's coming from on this one so far um god still stands uh yeah here's the thing uh 50 proofs sounds more impressive than say 50 conjectures or you know what i'm saying or or 50 ideas i've been thinking about 50 ideas i i didn't bounce off anybody i just posted you know i feel like like uh here's the deal like i when i have a great jesus moment like

i think i've come to some kind of conclusion or the holy spirit's laid something down on me i always run it by like three people to make sure that i haven't interpreted something that's ridiculous before you announce it to the world yeah i actually and actually i had one of those moments on the way in today uh i i was praying on the way here and uh you know i to be perfectly honest like i feel like i've been a little distant uh from from jesus lately and uh uh you know and i

just started praying some stuff and confirming some things and i'm like i you know i just uh just started praying some stuff and confirming some things what's that been you know what do you mean why was it playing god speaking back why was it playing back what i was just saying it's you talking okay so here's so so anyway i was praying and i was uh i i said you know i don't i don't know i don't know where i'm falling away can you know i just i need you to help me i you know and uh

i said i'm just gonna hang out here i'll turn the radio i'm just gonna hang out and not like a minute later my abs light turns on what's an abs light abs it's the abs light for your what you need for your analog for your analog brake system your abs are looking good oh oh yeah okay okay so now i'm like uh okay so either i have a legitimate problem or the holy spirit's talking to me you're saying slow down so i looked at my speed and i thought don't stop don't stop doing what or stop doing something

what am i doing i got a 50 50 chance what am i doing uh okay and then like my mind just starts racing right i'm making things up at this point right i'm looking at thing going abs a better servant i can be a better servant maybe he's saying you're an abysmal i did i do to the the pro way like mike you need to do better encouraging it then to the bad way like mike you're terrible i'm like i'm i'm screwing this up this is getting out of hand and then i thought what if i have a legitimate

brake problem and so i started checking the brakes you know i'm like well i seem to be stopping i i don't know what to make of this uh so i'm just gonna wait it out i i when i got here i turned the key off turned the key back on to see if it'd go away it didn't so maybe you just have a legitimate i'm leaning towards legitimate brake problem but very odd timing very odd timing something about see this is why i don't say the holy spirit talks to me in my car because uh i could be ridiculous

if you would have turned on the radio and there was journey singing don't stop believing i would start thinking there's some some dots connecting or something okay so there's so i have one other weird coincidence story which i it's it stands alone just like this one right so we were driving back from my in-laws for sunday dinner and my my i got my blue my ipod bluetooth through the car so you can play tunes you know yep and so the battery starts to die and uh and my my two-year-old

plays like three songs she recognizes what the album looks like and plays three and that's the only one she ever plays so the battery dies and she out of nowhere she goes na na na na na na na na na i said what's that mean and it's it's the song na na na na na na na na that one right and so uh she never plays that tune and i said i'm sorry the battery's dead it's not gonna happen she starts crying uncontrollably and i'm like we'll just listen to the radio turn it on wham it just

started on the christian radio station that's heavy abs freaky freaky radio coincidence something to think about something i don't know either jesus is after me or i'm making stuff up it's one or the other uh so anyway that's what we're hitting uh we're hitting number 10 those were good stories godisimaginary.com number 10 watch the offering plate also uh your chat advice on dear life in the path he also regrew my foot this week okay that's that's not true but that would have been more

impactful no i would like to see the video uh so anyway that's what we got going on hey just a just real quick uh to throw it out there if you uh if you didn't happen to catch the broadcast on friday we were out broadcasting from the manifest show at indianola community church and uh it was good it was good it was very good uh manifest was awesome uh it was good to see saved on sunday and double j and in full arena style action they did an awesome job uh you can check that out on the

youtube channel if you go to uh youtube.com backslash the path online it'll be the uh our most recent video that is not live currently and uh and check that out it's uh it's very very good so uh i had a lot of fun out there broadcasting with those guys uh yeah the concert it was a good concert it sounded good looked good uh people at faithworks are always gracious always uh have us out give us a real big space and it was really cool so j had the new the new look he did he had

is that those uh foreign clothes on it was kind of kind of cool though he signed his own sunglasses you know what isn't there doesn't there have to be at least a little perceived ego to be a to be an artist i mean did you have to get up there and say i'm awesome listen to me otherwise no one will listen to you that's true i have never picked up anything of mine and then signed it and then said yeah that's what that's why you're not popular okay okay fair enough

that's fair double j is cool and you are not okay that's also true all right all right uh all right so let's let's talk it mike uh re-hit the premise on the fa okay so here's here's the now i haven't heard this song right i should have listened to it but i didn't it had the fa in it uh so basically they put p.o.d put out a song that was describing a non-believer's perception of of of christ and kind of of of where he's at where the whole world's at and even christians

in general you don't like the the message that comes out of the mouth that's totally betrayed by their actions right and so it goes just legitimate yeah which is legitimate like we often talk about that ourselves yeah it's without using the effie yeah it's it's an artistic rendering of where the society's at you know as a as a as it pervades to the way that christian culture works right and basically what it boiled down to is the guy saying you know we're all this we're all that

and you try to talk to me about god who the blank is that with the effie in there you know you know with someone's i think what it was trying to purvey is someone's frustration and someone's disgust that like you tell me that you have a god here and he does this and he does this and he loves me and all everything is great and i look at all the people who follow him and i go what you know this sounds like the really the way to go you know and so i think like i said i haven't heard the song

that someone posted the lyrics and i read them and i you know from the gist of what i think they were getting at is basically they were trying to purvey a non-believer's take on what the christian culture looks like and and you know they're frustrated and mad and don't understand how you can try to be selling me a jesus that obviously isn't working for you did you get the same thing ben did you read the lyrics uh no dan did you know i didn't only because i didn't really want to

read the effie i thought i just don't know i'm just not interested you just do it oh okay now i'm gonna have to put that in my face now i'm gonna have to pull up the discussion you have you gotta have the gist of why they're doing it to to be able to have any conversation i got that from the conversation i mean that they're trying to reach people for jesus and they're trying to reach be in their world and they're trying to be cool and relatable and all that good stuff i see i don't

know that that's what they were trying to do though i think that's what other people think they were trying to do i mean their whole their whole career that's what they're trying to do that's it's not necessarily just the song that's their that's why they chose their genre that's why they have their their style um they want to be just i don't know i honestly don't know much about about bottom other than i understand they want to be just these christ following dudes that happen to be in a in a metal

type setting which i mean we've ran we've had artists on the show that are in that same sure in that same boat yeah i'm all over that okay okay yeah that's why i think that you should what is a christian band or a non-christian band it's just like well i'm a christian plumber well you're a plumber right you just happen to be a christ follower i mean i don't know that when we throw those labels out it's a little confusing too it's like yeah i really only plumb for christians

yeah you know which is not true that's not true either it implies anybody's money well i i think people do that because it implies a certain thing about them yeah uh which is i'll be fair and honest and then if i rip you off i would hope you would do that yeah i know i know and in the christian genre that they're trying to say just so you know uh we're going to sing about jesus so if you're hoping for heavy metal and some of the typical things maybe heavy metal addresses uh we're not

going to and i think that's a mistake i think generally speaking that's a that's a mistake um if people are coming out to hear your message uh they'll catch on soon enough but i don't see you don't um i don't walk into the get and go and go i'm getting a chocolate milk by the way i'm a christian just so you know are you a christian manager i mean yeah i only buy milk from the christians yeah mike are you gonna come up with those i'm i'm digging it up give me a minute okay

okay so i i mean well it's it i guess it's tough to get on do you feel like dan maybe has the wrong idea of the of the of the circumstances mike i don't know is dan against it well i'm just going by what reading the debate on that discussion that's how i the impression i got most people felt that's why they were throwing the f-bomb in there was to be culturally relatable they're trying to reach people outside of christ they're saying hey it's their artistic expression trying to reach those

people blah blah blah yeah but i feel like they're i feel like they do that without the f-bomb anyway so i don't know that that was their only uh goal okay here we go let me see if i can get to the specific place where it comes out okay are you the one that's come to set me free because if you knew who i am would you really want to die for me they say you are the cursed man the one who hangs from this tree i know this is the one and the only son of god but tell me who the is he so tell me

so they're saying this is a non-believer asking the question yeah yes yeah yeah so here and they probably honestly would ask in that language which i think is is is why the lyrics are what they are no so the question is is there something to be put off about yeah that i am and and how but i'm not their target audience either but two things came to mind just in the whole thought of this one is in ephesians 4 it says to let no no obscene you know language come out of your mouth it's i mean

how and then everybody says well how you define obscene you know it's obscene it's an obscene word okay um and secondly we are called in peter to be to be holy because god is holy holy is set apart our language as believers is set apart so i don't go around quoting everybody that uses the f-bomb and say well i can use the f-bomb because i'm quoting so and so it's like i still don't use the f-bomb i say f-bomb or something you know i realize that probably would work in their song it makes no difference but

but i when you say f-bomb everybody knows what you really mean right so so why say it it feels like there's so many other words you could it feels like you uh like you falling into the same category as the as the that i used to get chastised when i was a eight-year-old kid because i said g's instead of jesus yeah euphemism yeah and they said you mean jesus and i thought no i don't i intentionally said i intentionally said g's because i don't want to say jesus yeah and i feel i i

feel like that i don't want to go too far with that i don't think that's exactly the same apples to apples but i feel it's getting close i think okay here's here's my issue on it right i'm not i'm not offended by it but i don't know that that makes it correct uh i feel like they when you try to back it up and you try to say that you know i'm trying to to relate to a culture uh you know where that language is relatable right i feel i feel like it goes back to jesus didn't talk like that and and

it's easy for people to say well what would jesus do and people like me you know but when it boils down to it uh you know we're christ followers not like uh christ buddies you know like we follow what christ does and and and christ jesus reached out to a culture that didn't recognize him didn't have anything to do with him like he hung out with tax collectors and and and boozers and he hung out right he hung out with everybody yeah and he did not become a tax collector a boozer and and i'm you know i don't

know what kind of crass language he'd use he said brood of vipers which i'm sure was pretty sharp baby snakes sharp back in the day that means hey yeah you mentioned baby snakes i mean very offensive but not like a swear word well but but i mean relatively why not well i mean what what what what makes you confident that that is not that that that is not on the same level because i mean you're right like you kind of you kind of pass it off but like the distinction about what is what is

culturally offensive or not is ultimately relative and so like you are allowing the culture to define what is what is derogatory what is a swear and then then then following up with judgment on other people as christ followers based upon the culture's definition of what is offensive for example if you look at isaiah you you call someone a used refer to something equivalent to a used tampon right dirty menstrual rags you tell me that's offensive i you couldn't say that now and have it not be offensive

but it was about it was the appropriate distinction it captured the exact image that isaiah that was that it was going for it's offensive but not necessarily like bad language but like a sin well but but but what sinful word okay but what what's what's the distinction like culturally who decides what's bad language and what is it i yeah i think what ben's trying to say is like if the culture defines what is obscene or not and then you say so the bible says you should abstain

from obscene talk as defined by the culture right but even our culture would define the f-bomb as obscene that they would do the same the saying using referring to something as dirty menstrual rags i i think would fall into the same category just because now you don't think so right maybe gross and ew but but not i i i don't think so because it's like think think of what the what the f-word describes is the same i mean it's the same distinction it's like that word in itself doesn't mean

anything except for it's a connotation as to what it is and the only reason that i care about this distinction i this gets very dangerous because people will try to make the same distinction i make here because they want license to swear right and that's that's not what i'm getting at i i think ultimately your language is is in the bible will say is it outpouring your heart right like what comes out of your mouth is reflection of what's in your heart but the the distinction is is are you starting

to make judgments based upon cultural distinctions not biblical distinctions and and ultimately like does it i don't know that it matters i don't know if if a song like that is that word in itself is it sinful is there something that is an outpouring in that person's heart that they don't love christ or not follow him clearly because they use that word in the context that it was used i think that's a real leap the people that you're that are offended are the people that are following jesus already that's

actually true like the yeah that's true i mean there's there's it's not like they listen to it and the guy hears the here's the obscenity and goes well that guy doesn't love jesus i'm sure of it you know what i'm saying it's only people that already know jesus that go hey hey but at the same time uh you you've been in the firestone plant i have i've been in the firestone plant you go in the break room and the f-bomb is about every third word or so okay i mean it's just it's just part of the

language like oh you know and and i would go in there and and and i just you know it was just like wow that's not quite like it is at the church office okay not quite all right now if i walked in now and i got to engage in conversations with people in the break rooms before and and let them know hey i'm a pastor blah blah blah so they got they kind of knew where i was coming from and if i walked in and i wanted to relate to the firestone dudes and say hey

you know they would have they would have been like they wouldn't i mean they don't even think about it when they say it because it's just part of the language they're not thinking oh this is a dirty word but if they heard me say it because they know like i'm holding my bible because i didn't in the firestone you know i'm saying because they said like dude you know they're doing that to judge you though yeah i mean ultimately that's right so someone who was looking to say uh either you're

not a good pastor or like one of the so what you don't want right is is you don't want that that was that was that's where i'm actually concerned is is a the example as if my heart is within my heart that follows christ i'm vulgar right but words mean that don't mean much to me like i i don't i'm not generally offended by swearing um i i think like what has come when it comes out of my mouth now is different than what came out of my mouth five years ago but it's more consciousness of what's around me

than than frankly anything vile that i think is within my heart um i i think it um i what the one thing that i was i think a little concerned about is to give the impression sin that god provided the laws in the old testament and identifies our sins so that we can recognize the gap right so that we recognize that we're not god and we cannot attain perfection we we rely on his grace for that and so if you take away the comparison if you call something um this i don't think this is a great

example but if you call something a sin or not a sin that is a sin you've lost that distinction and and so i i think that's where i'm a little bit leery now i think you can get to when i look at language i don't know that i'm ultimately all that concerned about this if you see someone that identifies with this and say you know what that song is talking about me i have that exact question and frankly that's how i put it i recognize this and he recognizes the the the position behind the

words you know and that guy's now sees well here's a guy that's asking the same question and then he's got to where he loves christ you know how did he get there i don't understand how we can come with the same question same perspective and and still and he loves christ and i don't and and he pursues it that way three years from now i you know that guy's not not going you know it's okay to say the f-bomb i love jesus but i think it's okay to say the f-bomb because i heard in this

tune right i think it's a non-distinction to me yeah well here's the i think now that i thought about it a little bit i i think where it boils down for me is is if you chose to use the obscenity to try to bridge the gap between your culture like like jesus following culture and the culture that exists that's a poor decision that's a poor decision because god works however god wants to work right and he doesn't work outside of his outside of his predestined uh rules for everybody you know i'm

saying like he's asked us to be holy and set apart and he follows those distinctions because his ways are perfect and so it's not like he goes put the effie in there so i you know so so i'll look cool in front of the so i'll look i'll be more appealing right god doesn't he doesn't do that right the gift of salvation is pretty appealing without obscenity yeah now on the other hand a guy that writes a tune like that and is trying to encapsulate the exact feeling of what somewhat like just just the total

angst that that and the anxiousness uh from that perspective i don't think i have a problem with that i i i don't like if if you're if it's a novelty and you think this will really bridge the gap between them and jesus that's a poor decision right the holy spirit bridges gaps uh god the father softens hearts and jesus christ saves people that's it you know your your words are inspired by them to talk to others about uh what they've what he's done and uh and and the life that's there for you and well

in that regard did did did the holy spirit inspire the effie well it wouldn't that beg into question like if if you've gone out of bounds of something that you don't think god himself would have done yeah yeah i don't think so you think god was against the other pardon me what do you mean i i i don't think he would have been said hey let's use the effie here that'd be great it kind of goes against his now here's the thing you know i don't think i don't think your lyrics are relatable if the guy

goes you know who the heck is that you don't say oh that that song speak to me it represents how i feel you don't say like it's it it's funny doody ish no it's kind of here's it's phony it's phony like if you want if you want it to be if you want it to relate to the person that you're trying to relate to they'll they'll see you coming a mile away you know i'm saying if you say things like screw you dude you know i'm saying they'll see you coming a mile away and they'll give up on you but like

but but but but i would agree like you don't uh we we hit this every time right the ends don't justify the means the means have got to be pure like you you do your best that the the means have to be in the straight line you don't you don't save you don't try to evangelize the people by sending to get there that's not how it works but that's kind of like someone had said well why don't we talk about something really important like human trafficking yeah well what what do you do do you go

up and say okay i'm gonna get me i'm gonna have me a few uh children sex slaves and i'll go ahead and pay for their services and take care of that because i really really reached reach the pimp and uh i can relate to him i've said hey i liked i like jolene right if i can get to the pimp it'll spread easier i gotta go to the pan jesus will understand if i have you know a few children that doesn't make sense it's a very it's a utilitarian thought like the thought that of of utility where we're able to accept

some bad if ultimately the broader benefit is good it does not work that way with god right you don't get to take shortcuts and do the wrong thing because you think it will produce the right thing eventually uh you you always have have the moral target of doing the right thing um yeah so i you know ultimately i don't know that it bothers me i i don't know i i'm not willing to to say that i think it is inherently sinful either um i think it all depends on the heart of the guy that wrote it

um and and i'm not in a position to judge where his heart's at i'd say that's that's probably the most culturally obscene word we have i mean i wouldn't have a problem saying hey who the hell are you okay hell's a real place blah blah that's a you distinction and or it's a cultural definition that's such a flighty thing you're right you're right you know what i'm saying that's like sunday i said something like oh what the crap okay 50 years ago i'd be running a town like that in a church

especially you know you said what the crap yeah something like that i can't even remember what it was like oh it's a good thing we're in 2012 you know and because in some people's world that's like you know really terrible awful awful word and because it's a euphemism for poop excrement but the human excrement excrement makes a makes a an appearance in in uh ezekiel yeah yeah it does i'm saying sol took one and deuteronomy that's right sol did take one i guess what i'm saying is

is the bible doesn't shy away from something that like where we have words that otherwise people would consider the words vulgar but the words are considered vulgar because the act is considered vulgar you know i'm saying like it's it's it's just a different variation of something vulgar and we've chosen a tier of which words we will accept poop crap s-bomb yeah i don't know if the act is vulgar as much as there are certain slang words that you only use in the context of vulgarity rather

than hey sexual intercourse is a great act between a husband and a wife nobody goes you know it's it's you know i kind of like the act as a matter of fact you don't personally create the connotation language is a tough thing because it's not a oftentimes it's not a biblical distinction right yeah right it's a you don't want to you don't join you don't join the culture or subvert holy living simply to engrace yourself with the culture and then try to change them to

christ right that doesn't work i don't know that that that things are implicitly vulgar this f-bomb in this tune um from the perspective that it's coming from does it adequately represent people's view of god probably it's probably a legitimate um reflection of how some people look at god and say what was it where the f are you or who yeah who right who the f yeah right so is it an adequate representation yeah art artistically yeah i think you can you can try to honestly represent the

culture but if the culture is is sinful um depending on what medium you're working with yeah i think you're gonna run into problems because to adequately represent the culture you then have to debase how you speak what you show what you do you know right here's the deal the culture will just put the profanity in there anyway like have you ever heard margaritaville at karaoke seriously like it wasn't in there you know they'll put it in there if they want it in there

they'll put it in there you probably just left it out uh i tell you what the the other thing that kind of uh the one point that uh bothered me a little bit about that discussion is there was someone who posted uh as a reply to it like uh you know they said this is just a small issue why are we always fighting over something so stupid um who are we uh to nitpick another christ followers actions and blah blah blah i'm like we're the people that's us right if you're nitpicking people

who don't follow christ you're wasting your time it's your job to hold the people accountable for those representing jesus accountable uh the people who don't know christ yet you just love them until you can't love them anymore and then you let jesus love them until they come to know christ you're not holding them to anything and so i think they got that backwards like they're like you know you can't nitpick people like like because they're on our team we shouldn't roast them and like as soon as you

decide to follow christ you're beholden to a set of rules that you should expect that other believers are going to hold you to well at least when you put yourself out there as a leader in the industry saying i'm a spokesman for christ then there's a little accountability i mean well and i think it's kind of a chicken-hearted move to say well i'm not a christian band so i don't have to do that yeah yeah that's lazy yeah that's lazy and i i get what you're trying to do you're trying to get

away from people associating you with michael w smith you know okay i get that you know but uh you know here's the thing like it's it's it's just like we always talked about right like uh the way that you live it shows the love of christ to people way more than what comes out of your mouth you know i'm saying and so uh the way that you carry yourself the way that that you don't back down from christ and the way that you you know put out the gospel just by the your actions uh show

jesus way more than the phony words that people have heard for thousands of years of people who say they love christ and act terribly and so i you know i i think there's i think there's if when you all boil it down everybody's got a chip on their shoulder no matter what side they're on right the people who are saying look the church people are too religious and too judgmental and they they they don't do this and they don't do that and they block the forward movement of christ

because of their religion religiosity you know and then the other people are sitting on the other side going you're getting too involved in the culture and you're not holy and you're not set apart and you're not doing this and there's a lot of infighting between people that follow christ you know and and there's there's a middle there and when it all breaks down i think it has to come to a humble following of christ to realize that you don't set the culture and you also don't set the

rules you know you are to hold people accountable who have said they love jesus to the bible standards and not your own make sure it's the bible standards and not your own and that that covers that gets riddled riddled a lot of a lot of that conversation well and i think i think this um this broad thing does have does have some roots culturally in um christians being obstinate holding on to whatever whatever jesus looked like to them when they found him and then it just sticks there the type of music

they listen to the type of clothes they wore the type of jesus don't love people who don't know lawrence welk if you ain't heard of lawrence welk there's no way jesus is except right the culture has gone downhill since lawrence died um good old larry welk so you know like in fact we i was talking about this with a guy at work today he was um i sent him a clip of uh of manifest because we were broadcasting from the manifest show on friday and i was like check this guy out and so

we listened to him and he said that guy's a that guy's a christian rapper i said he is a white canadian christian rapper think on that for a while you tell me anybody but jesus could do that i don't know that sentence ever been uttered before in the history of life except for when jesus said it and said hey manifest this is what you're gonna do uh but but the but the discussion was he's like um what i said was is people don't have an excuse used to say hey i do i do christian music right

and you could basically assume what it is and a lot of christian music even even 10 15 years ago or even five years ago to a certain extent was not culturally relevant like it didn't sound like other things sounded um it was it sounded like three years behind production quality like type of music where it was going okay so so within the last you know five years and in upwards of 10 you've started i don't think you have an excuse anymore you can't go hey man i like i want to

listen to christian music but it doesn't sound like the music i like i don't think that's i don't think it's true no no um but but that goes back to the thing we started with watch i don't know that it makes sense to even say i'm a christian band or i'm not a christian band i play music dig my message yeah you know i'm saying like there's no reason to segment yourself out so only christians can gather and enjoy you i i grant that it's encouraging christian music exists for some people as

an encouragement as a reflection of god's god's glory that's awesome but like i don't see any reason to cut that off and say i only play music to christians and i know they're not doing that intentionally but when you label it that way i think it ends up doing that i think maybe part of their thought is that um it is an encouragement it's nice for me to have a station if i'm in a whatever mood and say man i just need some jesus music i can i can hit the number and i know i'm not

gonna get the f-bomb i know i'm not gonna get you know hey take off your pants and do whatever it's gonna be what the crap i don't listen to this stuff i don't know what they say i know what they're getting at though hey take off your pants i'm tired of all these metaphors just take off let's just get to it okay actually that's pretty much the songs that come out that's what i'm saying but they're pretty straightforward so i pretty much know if i hit a certain channel or two

that it's going to be jesus i also have a risk it could be corny jesus you know but but i found a new channel that uh i really like and uh so far i haven't found any corniness it's not like this two songs they play over and over again and then stuff from the 90s it's like all pretty current stuff so yeah you know actually i thought i found a hard rock christian station in northern iowa when i was up there doing some work and uh it turns out it was just a hard rock station

uh the songs were just speaking to me as if i kept listening to the message i'm like this is a christian hard rock station where's this been like i really loved it i agree i won't fear the reaper i won't be bullied bad moon rising that's it that's got to be a jude uh so yeah it was definitely not a hard rock christian station but then i thought you know what uh uh jesus talks to me for whatever you don't say like i found the message very empowering

uh but anyway so where so where we end up on this thing man yeah so tell us what we think here's what i would say generally speaking um uh i i don't think this should be like ephesians 4 is clear right you shouldn't be obscene okay right um i i think it's almost always a mistake almost always mistake whether it's whether it reflects the culture correctly or not i think it's almost always a mistake um long term i get it like i get it if it's an actual accurate reflection

in this particular lyric of the culture um i i think it it all focuses between that guy and god it's his heart right it's not ultimately it's nothing else it's between that guy and god whether whether that whether that word is vulgar and a reflection of a vulgar heart that followed the or is it is it something else um i think the real danger is uh is dying on the hill about it i think the real danger is reflecting to the culture like if if there's a if there's something like that like a

lyric like that that reflects a culture that doesn't believe in god and they see from a christian perspective that really we're going to spend a lot of time on that particular thing we're going to die on a hill whether there's an organ in our church we're going to die on a hill as to whether this particular word is the end of all people loving jesus oh you know what i'm saying i think that is the danger is how you handle something like that dang it i think have we done that i think i think

you whoops you need to handle it with truth but also grace i think you you can you can look at that and and like because a guy used the effie it doesn't mean he's in hell forever right right could have been a mistake uh could have been intentional and he just thinks differently about whether that's obscene or not um you can pray for the guy and you can hope that that whatever's in his heart is accurate however i i think you run the risk on reacting to this in a way in the way that we

react to the sins that we're offended by the most generally the ones that we're also guilty of and so i think that's i think that's the danger and i i think uh i think you need it so it's certainly okay to have honest discussion about it but make sure that you're not dying on a hill about this particular that's true now do you think that their message has been watered down any you or you know it has been not been reinforced because of the negative reaction from the christian community right

like the subculture like the culture looks out and then and they're a fairly popular band with people who aren't christians too you know they put out one song with the if bomb in it and everybody who claims to follow christ comes down on them hard that's probably not a real good endorsement to follow jesus is it right right you know i was actually more offended at today i'm not offended by anything i always this sounds like a good word to use on facebook today there's a couple guys uh arguing

over salvation you know at what specific point does someone become saved they're going back and forth blah blah blah and i just wanted to put in there hey guys while you guys are fighting about this this really idiotic thing uh i'm gonna go talk to my neighbor who doesn't know jesus right you know now i'm now i'm engaging in a debate i'm not gonna give him my time you know i think christians sit and argue with all kinds of stuff that that really is irrelevant you know i if these guys

throw the up bomb you know hey that's on them i'm not worried about it i'm not gonna lose any sleep over it i think it's it doesn't impress me maybe it's not the best idea they probably still love jesus uh maybe i don't know if they do i don't know them uh i would look i would look at the lyrics and say that they probably don't that much you know they might love them but don't follow them that closely that'd be my my judgment but but then it doesn't affect me at all i don't i don't you know

it's like i'm not gonna worry about it i'm more hopefully as a believer i'm more worried about the dude who's right next door to this building who absolutely from anything i can tell thinks uh jesus just he probably would say f you that jesus you don't like it you know like the song uh who who the f are you you know and i was like that's the guy i need to be somehow invest my time with that my energy and that not like well i'm gonna make this other preacher guy really upset i'll prove

him wrong you know how about if i prove someone that jesus loves him i feel like we should quit our talk show maybe we're just we're only an hour a week we're only wasting an hour of god's time there's obviously no energy involved here and no thought so due to the quality of the show jesus has allowed us to continue you guys really aren't making waves either way jesus checked out six months ago we said crap you guys are harmless yeah i think if you're your first reaction to be pray

for the heart not to chastise the action i think you're gonna you can attempt to identify actions that are inconsistent with holy living um and deb make sure you're demonstrating it holy living on your end and and you're answering with truth but like you know actually now that you put it in that perspective though like if if you would let's just say you had put a random post that synopsis the whole thing on facebook you just came out one day and you wrote do you ever think that people who

don't know jesus think who the is is god i certainly would have had a conversation with you about that i probably would not like like as as your brother and actually as a as a as a guy that's you know part of your life and involved with holding you accountable for the way that you love jesus i certainly would have called you and said what what's that about what were you thinking why did you put the fa like like and you know we're putting in a context where we don't know the guy if dan had

done it i'd have called dan and said dan what are you thinking what's that about yeah i mean we certainly i mean we'd had a conversation it's my artistic expression i'm trying to symbolize the culture to all my preacher buddies because they won't stop arguing hey so let me ask you this are you offended by the statue of david the nude statue of david sure that it's not like david's you know it's not a self portrait or anything that'd have been embarrassing oh look at this sheba comes in and goes what the

crap are you doing nothing the lord does good things gross so honestly i think all all of the uh religious quote art is a little silly back from the the centuries you know uh so i'm offended by all of it it's like really he has a halo come on it's like it is kind of shadowy it is weird like oh half of the the like the the popular religious art from 400 500 years ago even a thousand ago people are naked yeah angels are naked david's in the bare butt naked the way i look at it it's still porn

you know that's true i mean how can the archangel michael really fight anybody with half a toe gone you know unless he ripped it off in anger that's different uh just see some scratch okay that's i mean that's hulkamania style that's that's all right when i was a kid i used to go to merle hay mall just so i could see the guy on the tricycle with everything hanging out going oh it's still there i mean did he have a twig and berries oh yeah i did on the tricycle yes sir i never noticed

that i'm sorry i did every time and i'd be like why did they put that there are you serious don't they know children like me are here he's got boy parts i've never seen such a thing i don't understand see you know i cannot put my mind in the head of an artist who's who's putting a guy like that together and he's down there sculpting the man's business yeah i'd say like like does it does it really take away that's about right this is before he got those pills on

the internet but you know here's the thing is this might be getting vulgar never mind okay okay real quick uh like his only model has got to be him right so that's it's got to be his otherwise he has some other guy to come in well actually i think in that culture they all kind of hung out i mean that's why they never circumcised or not i mean it was a big deal it's like hey timothy you better get circumcised because see everybody complains about today's culture but there's

there's no bad business taking a route i mean it was open bathrooms as a hey with us oh i see your fully clothed dudes i will take today over over previous cultures today what thank god for quakers i like dan's like his perspective on how they greet each other uh hey they're a bill i mean been jewish long well obviously there's something going on there or why would he have a full-grown adult to go get circumcised because people are going to know oh maybe they ask are you allowed

to wear the hat did you have to wear the special hat if you're not circumcised he's yeah that's true he why would he say it's not like everybody just checks all the time maybe they did boy things i don't get from the text my bible study is like i gotta get that study about all right you're listening live from the path we're talking about uh uh you know vulgarity and music here's the thing uh prayer solves everything christ uh jesus christ is lord pray on it love jesus witness others and try not to

drop the epi yeah let's start there and move on here we go uh we're moving uh godisimaginary.com uh we are in proof number 10 walking through the 50 proofs uh proof number 10 called watch the offering plate have you ever thought about the offering plate in church if god is real why do they have to pass it if you read these verses in the bible you can see that god claims to be extremely powerful and willing to answer prayer and he provides uh again his attack on prayer

and there was a number of verses and he says consider this why don't the ministers and deacons of the church gather together every sunday morning and pray to jesus for the money they need why doesn't jesus just answer he's answer their prayers why do churches have to beg for money from mere mortals when there is an immortal all-powerful god who should provide anything they ask for here's what god is saying pray to me for anything and i will hear and answer your prayers i say it in

dozens of places in the bible but i like the way i say it in mark 11 24 the best therefore i tell you whatever you ask in prayer believe that you have received it and it will be yours anything you need money love happiness you name it i am here to provide it for you now there's just one thing i need in return i need your money i need lots of your money the bible specifies that you tie 10 of your income to me but think of it as a starting point feel free to give more because even though i created the

universe and everything in it and even though i will give you everything you ask for in prayer i can't give a cent to any church ever when they pass the offering plate at church be sure to give generously this of course is ridiculous the reason why they pass the offering plate at church is because god is imaginary this one's not even rooted in any fundamental fact he misses the complete point altogether of the offering plate yeah god does already oh he owns every dollar he owns everything

he owns there's nothing he doesn't own except me and that's a that is my way of of showing how much of me he owns you know how much am i willing to part with with with my stuff it's it's a heart and it's totally connected to the heart yeah god doesn't need money no he's got it and he'd have every cent i've ever had in an instant all this news stopped my heart and it gets passed on so let's let's hit a couple of questions right first one was why don't the ministers and deacons of the church

gather together every sunday morning and pray to jesus for the money they need uh that does happen yes it does i just have lord you provide for the needs of your church so uh he asking why that doesn't happen do you pray specifically for cash or does that feel wrong i pray for resources like that god would provide the whatever it is we need to do the work that he needs done and he says just because he says ben dan just ask me for cash just say i want cash it's he's i need cash money here's

the deal is is the currency is irrelevant to god right it's how it's it's it's how humans do business but it's not how god does business it's not like he hands out 50s he it's not like he doesn't are irrelevant to him it's not like he doesn't know that you use 50s to buy things so he's not an idiot but i guess i don't know how you do things down here but i'll just provide random stuff but when you say like god obviously doesn't need the money even if you ignored the fact that everything belongs to

him anyway the like money paper currency is irrelevant to him it's just the agreed upon system of which in america we've decided to trade goods it is is agreement between people and people not people and god you know what i'm saying so like i like it's just it's it's raw it's weird to think like jesus send me money as if he has stacks he doesn't deal in currency so i think i think the base assertion is wrong but when you say why doesn't jesus answer their prayers why do the churches

beg for money from mere mortals i don't think that's true like churches aren't begging they're asking you to give because god like as a as a response to god in a heart for god we don't want your money yeah like ultimately if we'd have to beg it out of you and say give it give it give it like you didn't give for the right reasons uh we don't want your money and frankly god doesn't either like we don't want it because god doesn't want it in that circumstance and some churches though

probably do okay you know but that means they're wrong yeah right they're incorrectly using scripture and and offerings right right so i mean i suppose this is could be a true indictment for people that are requesting money from people in an unbiblical what happened to this guy what happened what happened to him he got to screw somewhere how did he end up this way so here's here's prayer a lot here's some of the stuff he hates prayer yeah he's he's he's not had

his list answered the way he liked well yeah and you can see that reflected in remember here he said here's what god is saying he's he's putting the words in god's mouth here we go pray to me for anything and i will hear and answer your prayers we've talked about that that's not true god is not here to serve you you are here to serve god well he will answer them he just by now answer how you want well but i think that's what he's saying is that when i answer your prayers meaning i ask for x and

and you give it to me because that's what he said when why did church have to beg for money when you should just ask god and he'll give it to you he'll provide anything you ask for yeah he's looking for a genie yeah yeah he doesn't want a god he wants a servant someone to serve him uh i say it in dozen places uh anything you need money love happiness i am here to provide it for you that's not a proper reading of the book of the scripture i that's not anywhere um now there's just one thing

i need your money i need lots of your money uh bible specifies you tie 10 but think it was a starting point feel free to give more uh even though i created the universe and everything in it and even though i will give you everything you ask for in prayer not true i can can't give a cent to any church ever god is ultimately providing like like if it's if it if god owns it all anyway he is the provision to which the money came whether you give it or not right so like it's it's from the wrong

perspective to begin with when they pass the offering plate at church be sure to give generously uh they pass the offering plate at church because god is imaginary um here's he provided an addendum here it says understanding the rationalizations a christian might say god does answer the minister's prayer he sends people to give money to the church you said that boy he's got you pegged he says if this is the case then the people are puppets and god is stealing their money by forcing them to give

it to the church awesome the absurdity of that situation is obvious uh that's not true god did not send them to give the money right like they're still giving it as a reflection of their heart to god yeah i i've often asked god to make me his puppet i would love to be his puppet and just a mindless little just just stick your hand up me and just do it just do what i want i can just do what you want to disengage if it doesn't work it never has it'd be funny if he made you have to be a real

duvas i am dan i'm going that away you asked for it hudson don't tempt me this is one of the challenges of of someone who like this this sounds this is really great if you start your life out as a christ follower as an adult and from from day one you plan your life around the tide it's harder when you've been away from christ haven't known christ and and in our culture you you you fill your life up with with you know if you make a hundred dollars

pretty much our society spends a hundred and ten you know it's just how we work yeah and then all of a sudden you become a christ follower like whoa wait a minute i've got to pay back all of those extra tens um because i spent all my hundred plus borrowed ten and and now i don't even have i it's it's it's a challenge for people so often i'm like i'm talking to new believers i'll sit there they'll be like well there's no way it's impossible i mean it's not even that i i don't want to i want to

uh but then they'll take my house away you know well you can sell your house you can sell you know you do whatever or you can just say here just take it one step at a time start with one percent you know what what are you willing to give god um maybe you don't need to have pizza four times a week have it twice a week you know yeah maybe there's something you can cut back until until you get your finances under control and the longer you're in the workforce you're making more money that

kind of stuff and instead of putting that money towards new cars and jewels and vacations maybe that goes to god and as other things pay off it all kind of balances out you know sometimes it takes a little time to work into the whole tithe which is kind of frustrating i think for for believers that are trying to wade through this yeah uh so uh so where are we at like obviously not proof that god is imaginary no and and listen if you if you love jesus and uh there's there's a

bigger conversation to be had about uh uh tithing and offering and giving and stuff but i mean like as far as a non-christian is concerned uh the his facts are completely non-biblical and they they've put an air of pomposity to god that he doesn't have because if god was a pompous arrogant god he would have nothing to do with this like there's nothing but love there and so um yeah it's he just has he just has a poor perspective we really should just start praying for this man

i feel like uh you know like i mean it's i like to disprove what he's saying uh because god's a great god and all but uh maybe from discussion earlier maybe we should really make a conceded effort to pray for this gentleman yeah he's yeah he he just has it he just has god wrong and and likes to reinforce that because it reinforces what he wants to believe about god and about people that follow him yeah um and i suppose coming from that perspective like you're always going to take the

the easy answer which is this is this is fake it's false it's not true uh it's a shakedown it's a tired you know it's a shakedown i knew it i mean the the thing that really stinks about about some of these is his perspective is not completely false in all cases right like he probably sees certain people that have tried that is that have said they were representing christ and and are doing this thing and are filthy people for money are taking money from people who are who

don't have the right heart and like are guilting them into giving or whatever um you know and so so what but but just because they're wrong doesn't make him right i mean that's it's not implicit that there's only two answers like there is a right way to do it just because they're not doing it correctly doesn't mean god is wrong or that people in general right and like that's that's basically the whole premise of god as imaginary.com is is like if i see one group doing x and they are incorrect

then the only possible other answer is that god is not real yeah right because how could someone who claims to follow god uh act in such a way well a they're a sinner uh b they could be lying in general to take people's money or manipulate people or great or gain some sort of power or uh over people or or influence or whatever i mean all that's possible because uh a sinful humanity does things like that i mean it doesn't really surprise me yeah in fact people should find them more relatable

like that guy looks like a scumbag just like me hey i'm a scumbag too hey how much do you give all right ready yeah well i we got like we can fit one yeah dear live from the path my wife and i have a friend that's in quotes who is involved in a charitable organization that provides donated items to people in need via community giveaways over the years we have given various items to this person to use in these giveaways however we have noticed that some of

the items we have given her are now showing up in her home and clothing we donated is being worn by her family members abby live from the path we donated because we believed our things were going to those in need are we wrong to be upset that they have been kept for her family's use we are considering no longer giving our donations to her she is a wonderful person and we're hesitant to confront her with our concerns but we are left feeling our generosity was abused how should we handle this

sticky sticky i don't think it's sticky why i don't think they should have taken it really yeah yeah now listen we used to go down to grandma and grandpa's house in nebraska and they ran a food pantry yeah and every time we went down there we came home with food from the food pantry loaded up the we were legitimately poor yeah but there's people poorer than us there's always someone poorer than you so where's the line stop what kind of undeserving jerk shows up when there's

poorer people but i think if you're going to be the mediator of accepting gifts it's just it's a matter of prudence to not be the person that shows up wearing it yeah yeah i think it depends on the the premise for for what are you telling people you're raising money or food or whatever for is it for generic poor people than anybody who's poor it works we had a situation like that once where someone was raising stuff for a reservation and then someone

later on said hey it seems like a lot of that stuff's still hanging around in their house you know it's like that's kind of that's not the reservation you know right um so that was a pretty clear you know violation violation um and maybe it it ultimately got there i i don't i don't know but but yeah i'm kind of like if you say you're giving it to someone else you gotta give it to someone else yeah i mean like it would be different if you showed up to their place and you said

hey i'm gonna i'm gonna we're collecting stuff and i'm probably gonna keep some of it no one ever says that that's what i'm saying i i i think and there's just a little bit of even if it's unintentional dishonesty there because it implies that you're collecting to distribute not collecting to keep yeah you didn't say hey can you help me out say hey we're collecting to help other people out and be a little bit because that one's pretty i like that one yeah i mean

it feels kind of levitical to me i don't know why i feel like you they're running the organization they're giving they're they're they're giving away they're taking it in they're giving it away they're giving it in you know it's not a jesus thing is it it's just like we're just distributing yeah i don't really have a huge problem if it was a jesus thing i'd say like oh you're you're you're that's rubbing pretty close um but if you're generically collecting things hey we're

collecting food for the food pantry and hey we're kind of hungry and you ate one of the raviolis one of the raviolis i i personally wouldn't do that they wouldn't be able to identify that the can of ravioli as i said like let's say the church let's say the church was running a food let's say our church had a food pantry it was well stocked and uh you know the three of us had worked there all day you know and and it was time to finally go home at 10 o'clock at night and i grabbed a box

of crispix and i left problem i don't know i don't think that's a problem i guess i don't think that's a big deal i i maybe i'm concerned like from from like clothes and stuff people stuff that people can see and this seems wrong because i'm saying like if they can't see it it's not a big deal but like i think you're gonna have problems from an image perspective if people think that you're just taking stuff off the top that says hi my name is brian thompson that was like the

kid's old shirt that'd be really that'd be really obvious you figure you gotta be more stealthy than that at least i think i think because it implies that you're picking the good stuff off the top yeah you know i'm saying like and i i'm getting the rest i deserve this i'm going to pick stuff up and like people can just insinuate a lot so for the the health of people continuing to to donate to you so that you can help others i would just not do it like if it to protect that go buy a shirt

yeah or say hey do you mind if i look through i got i could use a couple things even the food thing though like we have a little food pantry here it's never occurred to me to like i would never grab something as a snack now that's because no one donates good food there are three boxes of girl scout cookies in there i'm assuming it's for the food pantry i don't know i saw them today i'm like i was gonna ask about those i don't know no they just showed up so i'm assuming since they're in

the food pantry area there was four i took one no i didn't do that but it would never you know i would i've before been like even really hungry thinking i've looked at it just doesn't think i should have that i think well i should run home and get something or run to the store or quick come and goes up the road like i'm maybe my mind's not right because i stopped by this ministry center intentionally during the week to grab a soda because i know there's soda in the fridge well the soda's not

especially for poor people that is intended for for people hey come here hang out grab a soda that's what that's for that's actually what i do so yeah the youth group thing is for them that was long before they ever existed so it's not even a youth group thing it's for hey you're gonna come in here hang out you're gonna talk it's working i stop in here intentionally to grab a soda and talk to dan there you go yeah all right you've been listening to live from the path thanks

for joining us uh this week we'll be back next week normal time 10 to 11 uh boy and it's just a few short weeks until the spirit midwest music festival do we have any musical guests uh i don't know about that man yeah we couldn't keep mine here before for the spirit midwest yeah i don't know about that off to double check the schedule see what's going on double check so anyway we will uh we'll see you next week thanks for listening to live from the path