Live from the Pathway Studios in Johnston proper. You are live from the Pathway.

And you're listening to live from the Path. We're coming from the Pathway Studios here in Johnston proper. It's good to be with you this evening. It is. It's the celebrated return of the blonde bomber, John Buba the third. John Buba? Yeah. The blonde bomber? Where did that come from? Hey. Your incredulity doesn't,

doesn't cover up the fact that you refer to yourself as the blonde bomber. Alright. Fine. I did it one time. I thought it would stick, but apparently, it's sticking. Here's the deal. As I said, that doesn't make any sense because you do not have blonde hair, and then he made an insinuation that he may dye his armpits. In fact, your your beard is red. Yes. Okay. How do you get blonde? I don't know. I just felt it it worked better because the red bomber sounds weird, and the brunette bomber sounds way too full of myself. The blonde bomber sounds right. Yeah. Here's what we got going on the show this evening. So there's a couple articles that that actually… It's interesting. I saw these throughout the week, and they kinda tied together, and it it basically has to do with

the place church infrastructure or church organization otherwise sits in your life. And there was a… There's an article that that Dan had posted earlier on on Facebook this week, and it basically had to do with kids… Why kids with amazing parents grow up and reject God.

And and then there was another article at the Gospel Coalition today, and this was less, you know, clickbait titled. And it said, hey, Christian. Polity matters. And I said, who doesn't wanna talk a a little bit about Polity? I don't even know what that is, Bitt. Neither do I. I I know what it is, and I feel like this is already turning out to be some kind of snooze fest. So why why are we interested in these things, Ben? So so it's it's interesting in… The the Polity article actually stood out at me, one, because there was an exclamation point on the title. And I thought, whiz bang. That's gotta be something. Punctuation. Yeah. Alright. Well, that sold it for me right there. Involved.

But it was interesting, the discussion, because it it had to do with, basically, rejection of… Modern day rejection of authority. And and how does that look then when we look back at the church body? And how does that shape how people interact with, a church organization? And what what really should we be looking for, or what was the Christian life look like when it comes to things like church church bodies, church organizations, what is a church, stuff like that. So the thing that caught my eye about that particular

article is someone had asked… Where is this at? Oh, you insist Christianity must be congregationally shaped, but what if I found solid Christian community outside of a local church? And his response was, I'd say you're a freeloader. And I thought, well, shoot.

So, anyway, that… That's what drew me into that particular article is that I'd say you're a… I love this article. I like people getting accused of being a freeloader, but I'm also interested in his definition of church. So, anyway, we'll talk about that. Dan… So Dan had posted this article. Maybe here, maybe we'll just fire this up because it it was interesting. It was why kids with amazing parents grow up and reject God. Is this based out of England?

I don't know. I feel like articles like this generally come out of England. Hold on. Let me see. It doesn't… No. It doesn't really say. It's probably England. They're known for their anonymity. Okay. Alright. What makes you say that, Mike? I don't know. I don't know. He has no reason to have said that. Stellar. Alright. Getting back to the article. There's a reason I didn't bring it up, Dave. Okay.

Here we go. This pastor dad couldn't figure out why his church friend's kids were walking away from god when they hit 18 until now. Dan, this is total clickbait what you've done here. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. So says Bob and Carol were an amazing couple. As a young husband and father, I looked up to them as role models. They were godly. They had a strong marriage. Every Sunday, their family sat together in church. They even homeschooled their kids. I hope that someday, Jana and I could have a marriage and family as solved as theirs. One day in passing, I asked Bob why he didn't attend the midweek service. Oh, that's our family night. I was impressed. We tried family night a time or two, but with small kids, it felt impossible. I wished I had the discipline these folks had, but I also thought, why not come to church and use any other night for family night? I also noticed they didn't put their kids in the children's ministry and youth programs. That was a little different, but these were awesome parents, and I could see… Sure see great value in having the kids sit with them at church. Time passed, and something weird happened. As Bob and Carol's kids went off to college, I noticed their kids didn't attend church. When my kids left home for college or work, they not only immediately found a church, but they got active serving in that church. I couldn't figure it out. I was such a lousy parent compared to Bob and Carol. Our family nights consisted dumping our kids in the nursery, kids' church, and later youth group while we attended the adult service. I was never able to pull off consistent home devotions. We sure weren't the model family. Why were my kids passionate about God while the kids in this perfect family were running from God as soon as they could break free? Bob and Carol could have been a fluke, but I've seen the same pattern over and over. Unnecessary hyphen. Great parents, but their kids leave the church. I didn't give it much thought until folks started asking me why kids never ran from God… Why my kids never ran from God. As a pastor, I wanted to help them keep their kids on the right path, but I had no idea what made the difference. I prayed and asked the Lord. You've probably heard family first. Don't get so busy with church activities that your family suffers. And while I agree with that, I think we get into trouble if we forget our family is just a tiny part of something much bigger, God's family. It's dangerous to separate our family from the bigger picture. The kids were seeing that their family gatherings at home had priority over gathering with other believers. It says we, my family, are more, excuse me, more important than we, the family of God. No one intended it, but they were being taught that their family was the center of the universe around which everything else revolves rather than God and his people being the center around which our lives rotate.

Suddenly, all made sense. No wonder these kids wandered away from church, which almost inevitably leads to wandering away from God. Church, gathering with the people of God was optional. A nice thing to do once a week as long as it was convenient and didn't conflict with family or other plans. Off at college, they saw no need to get connected at the local church. The the… They were busy with their lives, their schedule, their priorities. Alright. What are your thoughts so far? Is that… Do people walk away from God because they are not involved? Well, Dan, so so you had some some response to this, on your Facebook post.

Mhmm. What what, what is the right way to understand what the… What this guy is saying, and is there a way that you can take this wrong? Well, what resonated with me the particular article, I'm not saying I like necessarily agree with the whole thing. I think, yeah, yeah, you know, just thought there was a good food for thought. Yeah, I'll post this on there. Yep. Mostly because I've had so many conversations over years where

parents grew up or parent their children grew up and parents were like what what happened to to my kids? And most of the time they were families where

church wasn't really the center of the life mostly because really God wasn't necessarily the center. I mean, were religious people. They attended church, but it was more important for them to maybe have their kids involved with educational things, camps, and things like that. Yep. Sports. A lot of sports. Lots of sports. And so all of these kids became closest

friends and bonded with people who were in their sports teams. Mean, that's not that that's not bad. Right? My kids did it too. Right? Yep. But we had our limits. We all… We always emphasize that, hey. That we are we are the church. We are the body of Christ. You know, this this is where it's at. Your goal on that sports team is to get those people to Jesus. Right? You know? Yep. I'm pretty sure these other families probably didn't emphasize that.

Anyway, so so it it mostly just resonated with me because I… There's so many kids that grew up without having the community of the body of Christ. And and so if it's an event oriented thing to them, it's a Sunday morning. We do it whenever. It's optional. It's whatever. And then they grew up, and I think, well, I don't need that. I have other things to do. Right. And they just kinda fall away from church, fall away from Jesus, fall away from their faith, everything. Okay. Okay. So so if I… Just kinda thinking back on… So there there was a little bit of reaction as I was kinda reading through how people kinda reacted to it. So I think they they may have looked at it differently than what you were trying to say. Because I think Yeah. Yeah. I think it was loaded to the to the extent that they felt like what you're saying is is that you have to invest in basically mini events. The church… The… Specifically the church activities, not so much focused on whether you're creating community with other believers, but specifically

the church as an organization or, like, if you're not if you're not in youth group, why the why the parents attend the the service or whatever,

that is why people fall away from the churches because you weren't involved in the many activities where there's probably a… It sounds like there's an area of which… The problem is a lack of Christian community. Like Right. Functionally regardless of in in what way that shows up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whether, you know, it might be for youth group. For a lot of people, it happens for youth group. Other people, it might be… You get to college. It might be the campus ministry that that they just hang out together all the time. They just commune together. Whether they attend church on Sunday or not, their their biggest growth period might be during that time of campus ministry. Right. You you know, so I don't know if I was… Like I said, I didn't fully agree with everything you said. Like, that's not the secret formula.

But people who don't follow it, who is not a priority, it's not hard to see a big fall off in that faith. And I think that makes a lot of sense. If you think about, if your family is the main root of which you can… Your relationship with God is rooted around only in your family, and then you are separated from that in any in even given circumstance,

and your faith is either not your own or doesn't involve in a faith… In a community of believers, and you lost that root. I mean, it does make sense that you've you've lost kind of anything that ties you to that. And and so understanding the, I don't know, the the size of God's people outside of,

your direct family only, that does bring with it some risks of of basically not seeing the full picture of God's people and then, having that easily missed or moved around once you're taken out of the environment when you're explicitly only surrounded by families. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. My my my daughter went to college this this past week, and, her music program decided to call a meeting on Sunday morning.

And, she, texted me and said, hey. I'm skipping that meeting and coming to church. And I'm like, you know, I mean… And and then it wasn't because, like, she couldn't miss the event of Sunday morning. It was like, this is this is her family. This is this is who this is who she connects with. You know? And it's not her fault they called the meeting when she connects with her body. Right. You know? So I was like, wow. I mean, there was no pressure on me. You know? I I didn't like saying, no. Don't don't don't be going to college meetings. You know? I mean, that… That's that was totally on her because it was that important. That was more important than What… Whatever the meeting. Whatever the meeting was. Yeah. And and we raised her that way. And it's hard to distinguish in a conversation. I mean, like I say, it's not the event. It's not like,

oh, if you don't go to youth group, you're gonna burn. She didn't go to youth group, like, her whole senior year. Yeah. Because it it… Like, basically, youth leaders said, hey, don't come. There's nothing for you. Is that… Oh, okay. You know, so she didn't, but she still had community with believers Yeah. And grew and and… You know… Yeah. Mike Mike, is there anything that jumped out at you in that article? Well, kind of. I mean, like, there's a fine line with what that guy's saying. Like, you tell people that, and the church offers a wide variety

of activities for a wide variety of people. And and some of the way that he… The, you know, that he's talking makes it seem like you have to attend them all. And like, I mean, we do we do all kinds of stuff at this church, and they do all kinds of stuff at all churches. You know, they have they have ministries up the wazoo, and they have activities for you to do. And, like, I would not know my family if I attended all of them. Like, that's just outright foolish. Right? And and, like, when when we first came to this… Came to the the place that we're worshiping at now, they don't do a Sunday night service. And I was so relieved because I because I grew up going to a Sunday morning service and a Sunday night service, and I'm like, you know,

I just I I just appreciate the family time on Sunday nights. It's just nice, you know. And, like, that's a time to, you know, commune and get together with my family and my community, and that doesn't mean that it's not Christ focused. It just means it's not at this building. And so I think it really does have to do with the community that you surround yourself with and and the activities. If if this is the only people at that church building, if if that's the only time that your that your life gets centered around Christ, you got some other issues anyway. You know what I'm saying? You have some things to work out within your life anyway. I spend most of my time talking to believers outside of Sunday morning. Right? They're my friends and the people that I that I see during the week that I help move, that I help break their lawn or help them roof or… You know, and like I spend equal amount of time with people that don't know Jesus

running off a fuel that I got from when I talked to the guys that do. You know? And so I I get what he's saying, but, like, it it does seem to go back to the straw man that I find that the the Sunday morning event. I think Dan kinda nailed it. It's not necessarily the event. And so, like, if you have to miss church every once in a while because you gotta go out of town because your grandpa died or something, like, if you have guilt about that, there's something wrong. You're not looking at this thing right. You know, you're you're feeling this incorrectly. But if you if you really choose to go over some things that come up, you know, because that's where your family is and that's where your community is,

that's probably the right heart of it. You know, if there shouldn't be any guilt attached to it or I I don't know. It it just seems an odd dichotomy. Like, I feel I feel what he's saying, but I don't feel exactly what he's saying. It's a… Go ahead. Oh, they… There's something about this article that really kinda rubbed me the wrong way when you were first reading through it. It was just the way that the guy's talking about how, the kids became in college and and, fell away from church, ergo, fell away from God.

And and just kind of the the direct correlation between the two kinda threw me off a little bit. It was just like they're not exactly the same thing. It's it's not that, you know, you can just exchange one for the other and say that if someone has… Is missing this, then they're also missing that. It's it's not that church is God, but, the more I started thinking about it, the more I realized that for… As parents are are teaching their kids values and and showing them, hey. This is what's important to us as a family, and and this is really where kids learn their values is from their parents and from the choices that the parents are making. And when parents prioritize the church, it's it's really the pursuit of God is what the church is about. It's people who… If you want to to go and learn about God and and go and be in the presence of people who are trying to discover God and trying to follow God, then church is where you go.

Now it's not the only place that you can go and talk about God. I mean, I… I'll, you know, I'll talk with people about Jesus at work, and I might be a little annoying sometimes. But that's that's more the tangent of work. When I'm at work, I I mean, the main focus of what we talk about is work. So where do I go for a discussion about Jesus? Well, I I might be able to put him in on the sidelines at work, but ultimately, if I wanna go and and learn about Jesus, where do I go?

Well, church. So I… I'm gonna go to find people who are also pursuing God and and trying to learn about God and and trying to explore their faith and and whatnot. And church is a place where you do that. And so, as parents, if we're prioritizing that and saying, hey. This is important to our family that that we go here, then the kids are gonna pick that up and say, yeah. I I also want to pursue God. I I want to learn and and hunger more for God and and see what he's like. And so, you know, it's important for them to be in a community that does that. And it's not the only place that you're gonna get into discussions about God, but,

you know, that's what happens at church. Yeah. And it's it's interesting. Like, it seems like… I mean, this is probably the nature so that you click on the article. But, so like kids with amazing parents, like, you're… Description says, you know, they were godly. They had a strong marriage. Every Sunday, their family sat together in church. They even homeschooled their kids, and I'm like Mhmm. Those aren't implicit virtues. Nor are they biblical markers. Yeah. Like Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I I I… We homeschool, but I I don't I don't look around and be like, we're we're pious and amazing because of it. It's just a choice we made. And like, their family sat together in church. Here's the thing, is if they're consistently at church, this would actually be counter to what he's talking about. Mhmm. Is is like, it it seems more that what what he's calling amazing parents may just have a little bit of a checkbox item going on. You know I'm saying? Because I I think I I could not attend any of these special, let's say, non Sunday things that are going on. But, like, if I'm hitting every Sunday and we are engaged and dialed in and talking about Christ at home and hitting this a weekly event with believers, which frankly, you know, some people don't even get that much.

You know, I I don't think you're running into this problem. And so, like, we may have mislabeled our our our amazing is we did a checkbox to say, here's the actions that people take. They must have been great. When there there seems like there could be something missing because I I… I'm pretty confident I can find people that, you know, maybe they attend this this church event, you know, twice a month Mhmm. And are still not running into some of these problems. And and it's not to say there's not variables that otherwise cause this. Right? Like, I mean, that's a heartbreaking thing to follow Christ and see your child choose not to. Mhmm.

I'm just… I I wonder if even our our… His description of what makes these parents amazing is a little bit shifted. It has a bit of a pharisaical vent to it. I I think that's what kinda threw me off at first was making that equation of church equals God, and that's something pharisees would do. Yeah. And so it… It's real easy to get into this mindset, and you start worshiping church and church activity and and church like that. And instead of just saying, hey, church is just a group of people who have had this amazing encounter with God, and they're responding. And and they're trying to support each other and trying to spurn each other on and and say, hey. Let's do more of God. Let's let's have more of God in us and and not so much, you know, this idolatrous thing. Well, there are plenty of people who've gone through all the youth groups and and bible camps and everything and grew up and then said, no. No. I'm out. Yeah.

It happens. And and my kids sit with me on Sunday because if I don't have them sit next to me, they will run amok. Right? That's just because I am a parent. I've been one of these kids. I can't just let them sit wherever they want. They'll make a bunch of noise and stand up and sing and sit inappropriately. Right? Like, the kids sit next to me because I'm in charge of making them not disturb other people. Yeah. Some of the strongest believers that I've met that have have, a faith in God that I I appreciate and I admire, Their parents did a good job instilling in them that that God does not just exist in the church building.

God exists throughout their week and throughout throughout the time that they're there. He's there constantly. It shouldn't just be something that's like we've talked about multiple times, the event that's on a Sunday morning or the event that's on a Wednesday evening or something that you have to go to. God isn't something that you have to go drive as a family to go to, and then when you leave there, you are leaving God there. That that… That's not how it works. Here's the rub, I think. It is we have to have the events because most people are lazy. Agreed. The families aren't just idling their children. I'm not putting down the event in any way. The event is definitely important. That that that's the the rubbing that's putting the balance. I'm sorry. What? I'm 50 on boobah. I I I… Yeah. A little bit. I I don't know how I feel about that. Mean, have public schools because parents don't wanna train their their children, you know, to… In math. And we have Sunday schools as parents don't wanna… So wait a minute. We've taken the worldly example and gone, hey. Let's do it. We

we send our kids to the professional… Hey. I sent my kids to a public school. My my wife works in a public school. I'm not down in public schools. I'm just saying we do that because we don't wanna do it. And we send our kids to Sunday school because we don't we don't… I don't I don't wanna answer the God question. Now hold on. Does that mean that the people that are attending the events is not necessarily that the people that need to know Jesus are lazy. It's the people that do know Jesus are lazy and don't wanna go meet him at their place. I would definitely say that's that's a big issue. Bam. Yeah. Absolutely. I would say, I'll be my own best friend back here.

It runs into the whole thing of of when when I see people talking about, hey, know, you really need to to bring people to Jesus and you really need to go out and and and create disciples. And people say, oh, well, I've invited, like, 15 people to church recently. I told them. And I laughed with them. And I go… Jesus didn't say go out and make sure everybody comes to your church. Like, that that was never said. He he he didn't tell everyone to, hey, make sure you go invite your friends to to your church so you can worship with them. That that was never stated. It's much different than that. And I think that's one of our inherent problems is is that we think that that church and God is something that happens at the events that we have. And, you know, hey, I really wanna bring my friend to Jesus. And then someone says, oh, well, have you asked him to church yet?

Well, no. I'm actually trying to talk to them about Jesus and and spend time with them rather than bring them to an awkward setting where they don't feel like they're comfortable. So I so I think the… What what Dan is is is talking about though, maybe I'll illustrate in this example. What I think the truth should be is that the government should not have to be in any type of welfare program because the church should be taking care of people. However, the church is not taking care of people. And so the the question is, do you do nothing in the interim? Do you… Does the government… Starve. Does the government say, the church should be doing this. We refuse to step in. But at the church's failings, the government has stepped in. When really what should be happening is the government is handing out a $100 on the street corner, they're like, no. We're okay. The church took care of me. Is it… I mean, is that is that come close to what you're talking about then? Is that like people… Like, you can stand on on principle and say, the church should be doing x, y, and z, and we shouldn't need, the the the type of events or to to put this together, at these specific times. But if people aren't doing that,

is there any reason not to produce that if it otherwise allows people to engage in the way because we're not doing it the other way? Okay. So I agree with that, except for maybe we could devote more resources to putting the boots to people that know better. No. Yeah. Yeah. So so I think… And that… That's the right that's the right thought process to say this… It is a measure of which to to overcome where we are failing to personally disciple. And the question is to make sure that we're not otherwise putting the wrong balance in our efforts to say, you know what? We're just gonna stick with the events that seems to be working as opposed to drawing people back to where they would… Should be. Yeah. So as opposed to saying, I've… Although I would like to see the the welfare system be run as best as it can,

my my hope is still in the church. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, these are… They're acute versus chronic problems. Right? Like like, hopefully, in the acute, they were like, yeah. Well, we gotta have the program. We gotta be able to start catching some of this that's fallen. Right? But the chronic is, hey, fellas, you know, you're just… You're showing up here every Sunday soaking up resources. You know I'm saying? We need you to go talk to some people about Jesus because this building, like, it really is. I mean, we we heat and cool it and water it. We bring donuts and all that jazz and, like, having the community is exactly what we want. And I'm all for Sunday morning service. I'm not saying to, like, abolish it or whatever. Like, that is where I see my family every Sunday, and I enjoy it. But, like, if you're using that as your discipleship technique and and because you don't wanna talk to a guy, that's a chronic problem. You know what I'm saying? And you you personally will never… You're not only shortchanging the people that you know, but you're shortchanging yourself. You will personally never bring anyone to know the joy that is that is the life and death of Jesus Christ because you pawned it off on someone else. And like, I would never raise my kids that way, and I feel like I couldn't treat the people I love that way or even the people that I've known that way. Like like if if if someone gets to say, you you get to have a place in your daughter's life to lead her to know Jesus and help her to be the person that God designed her to be, I would never say, boy, I hope I hope someone does that because she deserves better. You know? Instead, I, like, I I I think I'm so glad I get to be a part of this. I would let no one else do this. But some parents would. I I think that's that's Which is the acute. Right? I I get that. Yeah. Okay. So so I I think that's maybe just understanding things in their in their proper place and saying,

we we we invest in these types of things because it is an outlet. It is the bridge in which we can direct people into how how you solve problems the right way in the kingdom. And in a perfect world, we'd say no one solves problems like this, but we don't live in that world. And so if that's… If people are willing to engage with the people of God in that way,

should we not engage them in that way, but also not invest in it as if it is solving the right… The the complete problem when we know ultimately where we're pointing to. Like, are we are we using it as a bridge or we're using it as an island of which we can just celebrate on? And I think that's that's really our distinction. Yeah. It's it's pretty much like like when you have company over at your over at your place and they leave their plate on the table, you know, because they don't live at your house. But if I if I did that or one of my kids did that, I'd be like, hey, you know better. Get that plate in the kitchen, you know, where the visitor gets a pass. And some of that's true. Like, the chronic is the chronic is get your plate in the kitchen. Get your plate in the kitchen. Get your plate in the kitchen. You know better. Right? Also, the acute that the visitor left their plate here. You know? But the chronic is you guys you guys know the deal here, and you're just choosing not to. See, it's kinda crazy. We we live in in Johnston, and and I'm pretty heavily involved in a lot of different school functions and and… You know, just just things.

It's amazing to me the stories I hear that this is one of the wealthiest communities in the state. I don't if it's still the second highest, but, anyway, it's it's up there. Right? Per capita giving… Incomes is really high. And there is amazing how many kids come to school that don't have shoes, don't have food, don't have clothes that are like fit them anymore. I mean, parents are complete, like, they might be professional, very well off parents, and they completely could give a rip about their children. So… Okay. That's

what's happening spiritually as well. And that's that's where the youth group comes in as important and Sunday school comes in as important and and the education because because it's… They're not getting… Do we just say, well, the… Well, but that's the thing is… And and I understand what you're saying. And maybe I like to focus on the the people who I think know Jesus anyway. But I'm like, those kids aren't underserved

because it… Whether there's a youth group or not, those kids are underserved because there's youth that know Jesus that aren't talking to them. Mhmm. You know what I'm saying? And the same is… And parents that don't. Yeah. And and parent… And granted, you know, the the… It's the parents' deal and, like, they failed. Okay. We can wail about that for another six months. Yeah. Or we can just get on it. Right? But, like, if if as as youth, like, part of our youth group is is is is not just coming here. Right? Your job is to be not only part of your spiritual community, but that spiritual community should move out to your your community of relationships in your school and the people that you hang out with after… Afterwards. And and like, that's that's where the connections are made. And I'm not saying that's the only place the connections are made. But, man, those are those are much stronger than an event that you could sneak in and sneak out of. Yeah. So… And the point is to say is that we shouldn't be using our… If our programs… Although… And events, if you wanna think of them that way, otherwise allow us to draw people in who are being underserved. If we are then producing another generation who is dependent on events and programs, that's where we were not doing our work. Yeah. Right? Right. Like, we're trying to use those to solve the problems that we are bridging between for having to do things like that. And it's… And the truth is there's plenty of people. You're not gonna run out of the need to do things like that to keep bringing people in, but we should be leaving our generations in a better situation when we found them by using those as a bridge to churn out parents who who are invested in their children's spiritual lives and

youth and, frankly, people who care about other people enough that are producing other people and other disciples that that otherwise are are following Christ and then doing the same thing as opposed to perpetuating perpetuating the cycle that says, I I really… I I learned a lot from my youth group. You should go to the youth group. I learned a lot… Hey. My kids are really wild, and I'm not really taking care of them. Maybe I should drop them off the youth group. Right? Like, that's what… That's where we're failing if you're perpetuating that, but you're always using that as a bridge to kinda get into those circumstances. Yeah. And I mean, and outside the black and white numbers of it, like we should we should to to produce x. We should be doing this to produce more disciple blah blah blah. Like, that is where life is, man. That is where all the joy of life is of of of following Christ in these things is watching people get out of the crap that they're in, is watching people get to know the savior and accept it for what it is and realize the gift they've been given. Like, if you wanna know that big hole in your heart that you just can't seem to fill no matter how much bible you read, that's where it's at, man. That is where it changes. And I promise you, that is just that is just the life that God set out for you. And like, I I… And sometimes, you know, I even do this. I'll boil it down to we should be flat out doing a better job of this. But really, it's for your benefit and the people that you know. God put you on this mission for a reason because that's how you can see him more clearly because you understand how he got you.

And so I I don't know. There's there's a lot of ethereal stuff to pack into there apart from just the the the numbers of it. And and man, I just… I'm telling you, that's where the life is. Well… And you're right, though. Where it doesn't exist in that way, I think you run the exact same risk, which you could take… You take your kids to the youth group and you spend… You make sure that they're on a Sunday morning. But where they are not interacting with God in a tangible way that has something to do outside of that building, you run the exact same risk as you do by his his suggestion that you're not connected with the church. Like, there… There's a lack of reality. It is just a separate place of which these things happen. And then outside of that environment, it does not reflect reality. And to the extent that it does not, you run the exact same problem of someone getting into a new situation and seeing nothing that looks like the the church that they attended, and now God doesn't seem relevant in that circumstance either. And so, yeah, the the very thing that you're concerned about, I think, could have actually the exact same impact as what he's talking about, which is if you're not having connected with the church community. And and the truth is take take the… Take any infrastructure out of it. If you are surrounding yourself with a community of people who love and follow Christ, and that is where your connections are,

both of those things are automatically solved. You're surrounded by groups of people, so that your… Even if you're outside of your family or or situation or whatever, you have connection with people that love and follow Jesus, and you don't run that risk. And also, because you surround yourself with people like that and you're living life in community with those folks, that is your life. And so you you cannot take a circumstance in which your life looks drastically different because you simply live in community or with those close relationships with people, and you don't run into that problem And so it's it's basically… As opposed to looking on on two of these, the broad polar polar sides of the thing, if you if you love and follow Christ and you do it in a community of people that also love and follow Christ, you… It eliminates the risk on both sides. Yeah. And it takes care of that. And and the truth is is that the church, as a… As an organization, as a body of believers, will do whatever it takes that we can do to reach out to you to try to help you do those things. And if we stop early or stop short on either one of those where we say, god wants you just to take these actions, and that what he… What he requires of you, or we wanna make sure that you have a lot of fun in this circumstance and maybe learn a bit about Jesus, but not necessarily connect with people and live a life about it. If we stop short on either side of that, we actually don't accomplish it, and that's that's where we kind of… We we… That that bucket drops and everything fails because we've not actually completed what we set out to do. Yeah. So so the reason the reason… It was interesting that I came across in this article, and this is from the Gospel Coalition, and it's called, hey, Christian polity matters. Polity polity is

to be church church government or or polis. Where we get the polis or politics. Like, it it has to do with an organization or a city. It's a Greek city type of thing. So that's that's where that word originates from. Ugh. So anyway Eric, this sounds terrible already. So… But what I thought was interesting is is that… Is this particular question is what stood out at me, and I'll I'll read it again.

This guy wrote a book called Baptist Foundations Church Government for an Anti Institutional Age. And it says, you insist Christianity must be congregationally shaped. But what if I found solid Christian community outside of a local church? And here's… He says, I'd say you're a freeloader. You live in a world in which local churches still do the hard and biblical work of identifying people as Christians through baptism and the Lord's Supper and then nourishing them through congregational elder oversight, and then you're taking all of this good fruit and nourishing your fellowship with it. Without churches, in other words, how would you know your Christian fellowship is actually Christian?

Imagine a world with no local churches. How would there be any accountability for who is and is not a Christian? Who would separate right teaching from wrong teaching or call it the hypocrites and heretics? I'm not denying that some confusion already exists in these matters, but take away churches, and you would have complete gospel chaos. Every man defining Jesus as seems right in his own eyes. Fellowship outside of a local church can be sweet, but it lacks the accountability structures that God intends to help the fellowship grow and remain faithful. I I feel like this same argument could be taken by Catholics and say, hey, without a a strong central pope, you you Protestants out there, you're… How do you decide right from wrong? Right. It's chaos out there. Yeah. We… You need a pope. Why do I feel like I… You guys gotta stop me where I'm wrong here. Because I am a bit anti authority, and I know that about myself. Right? But, like, why do I feel like we spend so much time, like, walking around with trying to label stuff? You know what I'm saying? Put stuff in a category and call it this. And like, I feel like if you paid no attention to any of that, that that God would organize it on his own. Am I am I am I wrong in here? Am I… You know? Yeah. They're called spiritual gifts. Yeah. I feel like he would I feel like he would just do it because that's what he's Some are administrators, Some are leaders. Some are teachers. Yeah. It it sounds like this guy is going, hey, man. I know the holy spirit is supposed to do a lot of that stuff and work out individual hearts and and making sure that that people are understanding a little bit, but that… That's not important. The the the the structure of the church is what's important. And I I think I'd… Now if they have the correctly gifted people in the correctly

Gifted places. Places. Yeah. That that would that would be ideal, but rarely… Is true when you get into structure and When I when I… Institutionalization. Yeah. When I put under authority on… At certain places. Right? Like, I know… I've been to churches where I walk in and, like, I've met the lead pastor. I didn't know he was the lead pastor, but I knew he was in charge. I just tell. Right? Like, there's just something about the dude that I don't know whether the Lord just kind of gives you an innate o meter where you're like, this is the guy here. This is the guy. Although… And then and then other places, I've walked into the church and and I've had a guy. He's like, I'm the lead pastor. Blah blah blah. I'm in charge. And I think, no, you're not. I feel like you're not in charge of nothing here. And here's the thing, I haven't been wrong yet. The characteristics that I can identify of people that know and love Jesus and act on his behalf, they just exude whatever gift the Lord has given them, and they couldn't shut it off if they wanted to. And so, like, I feel like God completely handles these things, and our ability to take a steno pad and start taping people with stuff is completely foolish and a waste of time. Well, so Yeah. So here's here's my… Where my broad…

Where where I kind of backed away from this is where it says, you insist Christianity must be congregationally shaped, but what if I found a solid Christian community outside of a local church? And then that makes… Really begs the question, what do you think a church is? Yeah. That makes it a local church. Yeah. Yeah. A solid Christian community is a local church. It's the church. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, I I get I get the concern that it's it's you and your two buddies, and and you drink on Saturday nights, and you're like, church for all. Okay. I… You know? Okay. I I I get where, like, you can go astray. Like, the church does does seem to have… The Bible talks about people leading spiritually. And so, like, if there was nobody ever leading anything, I don't know what the Bible's talking about there. It it talks about legitimately things like elders, deacon, shepherd type folks. Mhmm. Okay? And I don't know that they have to be as, corporate as we've we've made those definitions,

but it does… But the Bible does seem clear that God has gifted people in certain ways to lead people or guide people and those types of things. So, I just don't know why why we've twisted this definition that says if you have a… I mean, he used the word community, not solid Christian dudes. Like, solid Christian community

outside of a local church. I feel like solid Christian community, you've defined local church. Mhmm. And he… And his accusation is you're a freeloader because it's our responsibility in this organization to say who's a Christian and who's not and who we baptize and who we don't and who gets to take communion and who doesn't. And and if we weren't here to straighten this out because, you know, the Bible's not available Or God. Who would know? So I'm assuming they're really against, like, the home church movement.

Yeah. Yeah. Would… Because they don't have a sign out front or something, so it can't be real or… I would assume so. And, like… And here's here's the deal. It's like, I dig on some of the on some of the concepts of a home church movement. I… It brings with it risks and opportunities. You have risks of of turning into, the thing that the last article talked about, which is you don't actually move beyond your own community. Yeah. You do things very insular. You judge everybody outside of your deal, and, and you've become kind of a kingdom onto yourself. It's a risk, and it it just seems to lean a little bit that way in some home church communities. They're very vibrant communities, which look a lot like the first century too. And so, like, I mean, of course, there's ways to jack something like that up if you're not otherwise following Jesus faithfully. I don't think he's having you follow yourselves insurately. So I think you're just doing it wrong. So, I mean, I I get the risks that come with it, but this guy is frankly pointing out with his attitude the risks of the organizational infrastructure that he seems to really love… Like to hug up on.

I just have such a hard time with this conversation. Like, I just don't… I know where this comes from. And like like, here's the deal. It's like, I meet people at work. You know, who've talked about about they don't know the Lord, and we'll we'll have random conversations about it or whatever. And like, honestly, sometimes I pray at night. I pray that they don't run into this guy. You know what I'm saying? Please don't run into a guy that puts the church organizational structure under, you know, ahead of you knowing Christ. Get to know Christ first. If you wanna battle this out when you're 50 and or 70 and retired, you wanna drink coffee and and and yell about this thing, you know, you give it an hour a week if you want to, but don't waste your whole life going, hey, we don't have this structure right when God's like, let's just go talk to some people. People, people, people, people. It's always a… I mean, over and over again, it's just like, people, people, people. He's talking to people. He's interacting with people. He's healing people. He's blessing people. I mean, it's people. That's his whole gig. You know what? We wanna go, let's get a tree going. Let's get an organizational tree. Who's in charge of this thing? It seems how interesting just how much emphasis the guy… The dude puts on his own work and his own activity and saying how, you know, we've done this heavy lifting of baptizing and and Lord's Supper stuff. And and,

you know, instead of, hey, here we are as a church, and and we're celebrating what God has done, it's… You know, all the emphasis is on… I'm doing all this heavy work out there, and you guys are freeloaders? Look at… Listen to this. Is it one of your main contentions in this book is that church polity… Like, I I I don't like the guy because he's saying that. Uniquely protects the what and the who of the gospel. That sounds pretty important. Can you elaborate? He says, it's the governing structures of a local church that publicly declare who the Christians are and what the gospel they believe is.

So, like, I feel like the Bible does that. Right. I feel like the Bible does that, and the holy spirit marks them on the head, the forehead, and the hand of head. They're separating the wheat from the tear before the time. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I get that they that they otherwise demonstrate through it. It's called their belief statement. Right? This is what this group of people believe specifically. I get that. Mhmm. I'm just not sure how that actually informs the movement of Christ's people through the world. What your particular corner church has decided is your belief Yeah. God's power is not bound in this organization that that that this guy is a part of. God is not held,

captive by by what they have created to be their organization. And it sounds like they want to control. Not not not intentionally control God and say, hey. You can only exist in in this place, but but it it sounds like unintentionally that's what's happening. They're they're they're trying to put a a box around this is where God is. This is where Christians are. This is the only way this works. And outside of this, there's no way that that God's power can work. So… And it's just not right. Well, so what's interesting though is is if you think about this from a from a different angle, there there does seem to be, in the Bible, clear distinctions about how you treat people that are part of your community and how to treat treat people that aren't. Right? There's, the the church discipline stuff in Matthew 18 is completely centered on who's in your community and who's not, who you have authority or accountability to and who you don't like. Or take from leaders. If leaders are supposed to be held to a higher standard for the people that are under their shepherding,

if you don't know who you are shepherding or not shepherding, it is difficult to be held to a standard because of them. And so, like, there are elements of these things that I think people are trying to nail down, basically, to understand our errors of responsibility. Do I have the right to go up to a man who is who is,

not part of my community and call him to repentance, as opposed to someone that is part of my community? I think that's where some of these conversations are coming from. Well, I mean, how would you speak to that? Good. What else are your thoughts? Insightful? I

was waiting for Dan to speak. He's the… It's it's his area of purview. That was the day. I I may have drifted for a while there. So a guy who is in error, he's he's so all into the structure of the church is so so very important. How do you respond to a guy like that and say, look, here's what's really important?

How do you respond to the guy who is is… Yeah. I'm I'm… I I just… I don't respond well. I have to admit that. I mean, I've I've I've not been in situations where I I yeah, I tend to change change… Start breaking the system as quickly as I can, which makes people angry and and… But but

we're so foolish. You know, we do. And and it does… Any group does that. You start institutionalized pretty soon. You'll you'll you'll just create your own little rules. So so I, you know, I want to start my own church. Well, now it's it's own institution. You know, some… And I realized that that… And and whatever group starts, you know, it's just… It's… They start their own things. So you just have to be careful of it. You just have to be sensitive to the holy spirit, the leading of God, and and and… Isn't that the answer? Isn't Dan's answer the right answer though apart from the first whatever thing he made up for about a minute and a half? But like, I feel like the holy spirit's the right answer. Right? Like, my general tactic is, if you don't know Jesus and you're living in a terrible way, I think you get… You need to get to know Jesus first, then I can yell at you. And that's the way that it works. Right? No matter what church you're a part of. It doesn't matter what church you're part of. If you claim the name of Christ, then you and I, sir, are gonna have a conversation about how how how… What's going on at your place. You know what I'm saying? How are you living? I wanna see more joy in your life because right now, you're tearing yourself up and you're ruining people. So let's have a conversation about that. I don't know if that I have to label you anything. Right? Maybe if you labeled yourself, that's good enough for me.

Yeah. And maybe maybe we… Like, we've become too too sticky on this thing. Right? Like, I don't know that I have any misconceptions of who or who not as within my my area of influence to call to repentance. I've never thought, you know, I feel like I should call that guy repentance, but maybe he's not my responsibility. So like, it's never occurred to me. Yeah. That would be the wrong way to look at it. It's it's interesting though. It's like it's like, what what are you afraid of? Like, what's he afraid of? That people are calling themselves Christians who are not. If they really knew what they were identifying themselves as, no one would do it with a free spirit and a light load. Do know what I'm saying? It's like someone walking up in the middle of Afghanistan and saying, I'm part of the US army. You,

don't know what you just agreed to. Because this is not the greatest place to tell everyone that this is what you're doing. Right? Now there are brothers that are gonna hang up with you and help you out and take you in like you were part of the family and will and will do their best to protect you. But there's other people that aren't gonna appreciate what you're saying. I feel like the same thing is true. Maybe not completely apples to apples, but like when you say, yeah, I'm a Christian. I don't know that you know exactly what that means that you would flaunt it lightly. You know what I'm saying? The Lord… Like Jesus set out some pretty heavy regimented things of what he expects a follower of his to look like. And so someone who does that on the light may not completely understand exactly what they're talking about. This guy is is guarding his territory is what… What's going on. Mhmm. He wants to make sure that that, you know, I'm the authority and you… You're under my authority until God quote calls me away to somewhere else. Then the new guy comes in. He's the author… You know, it's it's kind of a game. I also feel like that guy doesn't understand that job. That job sucks. Everyone shows up to him. Like, my marriage is falling apart. My kids are acting like this. I've done terrible things. Blah blah blah. It's like, what the heck? I don't even know what to do with all you people. Yeah. We've we've made the the quote clergy a profession as opposed to a servant of God ministry thing. And and then those are two complete different world views within the church, within leaders

within the church. So if you have to tie all this stuff together, I think the the the basic nature is is that, people that… If you if you are following Christ, just know that there are other people following Christ, you're gonna run into him. That's the nature of following Jesus. There's other people that are doing it. You will become friends with them because you're both following Christ together. In fact, there might be good sized communities of you doing it because I feel like as you follow Christ, you're likely to end up in the same places doing similar things with similar people. That's the nature of following Jesus. In that regard, you should make friends with those folks. Use them as solid whole… As solid community around you to help encourage you and to be an encouragement to them, to hold each other accountable, to call people to repentance, and otherwise point yourselves to Christ, which is how you got to know each other to begin with. And then you're gonna take that boldness between this group of community of yourselves and spread it out into the world so you may get other people and create what is what is tantamount to a flash mob of people that love and follow Christ. And you'll notice them because they're all doing it together and doing very, very sweet, loving things that you expect Jesus to do, but you're doing it personally because Christ has given you a holy spirit to do that very thing. And then you'd have to stop worrying about putting up banners and tents and and barges and and whole houses and all these two things that you wanna be able to to label them because you're just following Jesus, and frankly, you have enough to worry about. So let the holy spirit do his work, and you don't have to sweat about your kids leaving the church or all this other business that you're afraid about. If you're just following Jesus, that's your area of responsibility. You're faithful in the means. God will take care of the ends. And then you don't have to write articles and do all this, other media business that is going on in the world that that I, we don't care about.

I I have to ask. Did you write that ahead of time, or is that entire beautiful picture just off the top of your head? These are things that just happened in my mind. Alright. Yeah. I I literally was sitting here wondering, he's been reading this right now? I look forward to some kind of Word document open on the computer. He's always done, and I thought, well, heck. I agree with this. Yeah. You switched to your reading sounds voice. Like reading, but I can't tell if he's reading right now. Hey, man. I don't wanna be a part of a flash mob. Here's the deal. That guy is not gonna agree to be on the show after that conversation. I was gonna hit up his publicist. He's like, you know what? I listened to your review of the book. It wasn't glowing.

To be honest, we couldn't pronounce your book right. We don't say polity. We say who's in charge? We need help moving these communion wafers. Alright. You're listening live from the bat. Thanks for hanging with us so far tonight.

I don't know. React to that however you see fit. Just follow Jesus, and we'll see you on the road. Seems like the right answer. If you wanna hear more about the show, you can go to lifeinthepath.org, and you can catch past clips from the show. Musical performances, hey, man, Foreverland is rocking the charts, man. Mhmm. And they did an acoustic version of of of one of their tunes that's that's, I mean I mean, hanging on up the tops of the charts. So go out and check that out. Look for Foreverland. We got some cool…

Some sweet cuts out there from them. And lots of other cool stuff out on the website, go lifeinthepath.org. Also, big thank you to Bob Eisenhower with the Eisenhower team. Hey, man. I I… It's too bad it got canceled by rain. Eisenhower, they bought out a, like, a big group of seats at the iCubs game,

and and we're inviting a bunch of people to kinda come because it's gonna be like Eisenhower This would be awesome. Yeah. I I wasn't gonna be able to make it, so I was happy it was canceled because I'd like to go to the next one. I think somebody else was gonna come back around. But anyway, they… I'm I'm gonna tell you that story to tell you this. The Eisenhower's are just sweet fellas. They know what they're doing. And if you're looking to buy or sell a house, they are the guys to go to. Go to eisenhowerteam.com, and you can find out… You can take a look at their… They got a list of kinda housings… Houses that are out there for sale. They could also help you. Maybe you're thinking whether this would be a good time to sell your place. They'd be able to answer that question. They can get you kind of a market study on what your house might be worth and what things are selling for around and can help you kinda put it all together. I told you this story last week. Maybe it was two weeks ago. I told you there was two houses for sale on a block over from my house. Both the guys were trying to sell by owner. One of the guys switches to a realtor, and, like, within a week, he had his house sold. The other guy switches last week. His house is now sold. So here's the deal. I I I get that you can try to do this on your own. There's there's capable ways of going about it. But for for your average guy, you got plenty of stuff to worry about. You just wanna get your house sold. Tap into the resources and and expertise that go on in the realtor world, man. And Bob, Bob and John and, and and Bill and and the guys at the Eisenhower team are just your guys to to help you with that. Yeah. And so go to eisenhowerteam.com.

Get ahold of them, and they can help you get all that stuff set up and get your house sold. Get it get for the right price and get it to the right person. And frankly, that's what happens. It makes a smooth and speedy sale. They're easy to work with, tough to beat. That's the eisenhowerteam.com. You ready? Yes. Dear, live from the path. Three years ago, I gave my adult daughter, married with a child, more than $16,000 to help pay off her debts because she couldn't pay her bills. She and her husband maintain separate accounts, which I find odd. He pays certain expenses. She pays others. Now I find she's deep in debt again and needs more help. I'm 69, married, and retired. We gave some savings. We have some savings, and I'd like to help her. However, I'm afraid if I take more money out of our savings, we may not have enough to cover an emergency or if either of us needs nursing home care.

She is a good and loving daughter, and I feel bad that I may not be able to help her. Do you see any solution to my problem? Hey, man. There's probably a reason to keep separate bank accounts because she's bad with money. Yeah. Agreed. Here's the deal. Most people say, hey. My wife and I have separate bank accounts. And I think, you greedy sloth. You will share your money with your wife and you will not have a separate bank account. This makes me sick. And then I will talk to them further and it turns out their wife is just bad with money. She spends a bunch of money all the time. She doesn't look what she's doing. She buys stupid things and puts them in some real straits. Then I think, well, you've made the right decision for your family. I'm sorry. I've judged you. I feel like that is probably the situation here. Yeah. It depends. I'd like to know how she got into debt. I mean, was it a medical thing or that she had no choice on it? Was it just poor choices? Well, her mom would be heartless if they're not providing that detail. Yeah. Like, if she was… If it was a medical thing and her mom didn't say that Yeah. Or a series of unfortunate events that had not… You know, it wasn't your choice. I don't know. Meteor hit your roof. I don't know. Whatever. To be fair, $16,000

will not last very long in nursing home care. No. No. That's like So I mean, you're talking like two, three months that you're gonna lose. I mean, if that's your main concern, I'd just give her the money. Now emergency fund wise, like the car breaks down, you know, you can go pretty far with 16 k. But as far as nursing home goes, you know, if you don't… If you only have three months saved up, you're living on the streets, man. Just give it up. Now, she say she gave her the money originally or lent her? She gave it to her. It was it was a gift. Okay. Yeah. I don't know that I'd give it to her again. Yeah. I think you're just feeding a bad head. I was gonna say, there's such a thing as being generous, which is obviously an amazing thing to do, but being just foolish with your money and and handing off ridiculous amounts of money to your daughter over and over again just because she's gotten herself in the straights. Your job is not to take care of her financially. Yes. Be generous, but maybe being generous in this situation is helping her to understand why she's continually going into debt. If it is something that she can control and it is something that she's just not

being responsible for. Yeah. I mean, the the question is whether you're helping or not. I mean, that's really like, whether you have the… If you have the money, whether you're willing to do it, is is what you're doing actually helping her circumstance? Or just enabling her to keep going. Yeah. Because I mean, that… Like, you can be real generous for a guy who, you know, can't have owned afford his own vials of crack. And we're like, you're not helping him out by picking up six or so and say, I'm sorry. I'm glad I could be part of your, you know, helping your life along. I had the money in my bank account if you're gonna people with legitimate debt problems, you'll find they just have a bunch of things they're not willing to put on the table. Yep. Right? Like, they don't wanna move. They don't wanna sell their house. They don't wanna stop playing tennis. They don't wanna give up cable. Yeah. Yeah. There's like ten, fifteen things that they could legit lose, and they just did… They either didn't even cross their mind that they could have to live without this thing, and they don't wanna make some hard choices. And like, I don't know if you're the person to deliver that advice, but you might be the person that withholds so she seeks the advice. Mhmm.

Here's the thing. If if she was coming to you as a business investor and saying, hey, you know, I've got this business and, you know, I'd like a loan in order to, you know, put it in the right direction, then they're gonna wanna see your books and they're gonna wanna go through and and get an idea of, hey, what's going on financially? So, you know, you could at least have that kind of a conversation and maybe be able to speak into a little bit of, hey, you know what? So something seems to be mismanaged here, or maybe you should cut up your credit cards, or something along those lines. And maybe she's not comfortable having that conversation, but you could just start off with, hey, I… I'd be willing to help out, but I think we're gonna have to have a tough conversation.

If you're willing to, then we can sit down and go through some of the… These details. But otherwise, I don't think I'm probably in the… In a position that can really help you. And, you know, just kinda leave it like that, but if you're gonna really help the person, it sounds like it's more than just hand them money and hope that that solves the problem. It seems like there… There's gonna be some kind of coaching that needs to happen or some kind of actual change that needs to happen in order to really put her back on her feet. K. Secular says, you must stop enabling your adult daughter. Rather than offer more of your savings, it's important to find out what is causing her spending problems. Drugs, depression, a shopping addiction? Then steer her and her husband to a credit counseling organization that can help without placing your future welfare in jeopardy. Legitimate credit counseling firms are affiliated with blah blah blah blah blah blah. This isn't your problem, and it shouldn't be. You have done enough. I don't I don't know. I don't know if they've completely disassociated yourself. I just maybe wouldn't contribute money to it. Yeah. I mean, obviously, she's got some some level of problem. She can't keep herself out of debt.

You can't help with money, but, you know, you can support her. She obviously has something going on. Hey. You've been listening to Live From The Path. If you're listening on the Truth Network ninety point three FM, hey. Thanks for hanging out with us, but we do have to let you go. And so, if you, I don't If you wanna get a of the show, shoot us an, email at [email protected] unless you hate the show. In which case, need to contact Chris Roloff at the Truth Network. That seems to be his problem. And, if you're on the podcast, we're gonna be right back with you. For hanging out with us, and, you've listened to live from the path. Be faithful in the means. God will take care of the ends. See, I always send the complainers to Roloff because I feel like, like, that's the most likely person.

And it's good that Roloff thinks that people listen to the program. That's what I was saying. That's the thought behind my… I'm brilliant. What are you doing over there? Me and Bo were trying to decide whether we're gonna sing What's Love Got To Do With It real quick. Oh, I wasn't deciding. I I was already doing it.

Hey, man. This is going way better than I thought. Here we go. We go. Aren't you excited you're on the podcast right now? Dear life from the past. Last weekend, we had our children and grandkids over for a family birthday. We looked after the children, cooked, waited on everyone, and cleaned up afterward while the adults sat texting or playing on their phones.

Live from the path, this is not so much a question as an observation for anyone of any age who is invited to visit someone's home. Big breath. Spending time on the cell phone rather than socializing is rude. It says our company is not valued. It says that neither we nor your children are important enough for your attention. It teaches children that it isn't necessary to be social, offer to help clear the table, or be gracious and appreciative when someone prepares a meal for them. The visit left a bitter taste, and it will be a long time before we invite our children and grandchildren to our home again. I know cell phones are part of our culture, but adults still have the power to choose what is important and turn them off. Hey, man. I've never agreed with somebody more, but hated the way they… Exactly.

I was gonna say. I was thinking. They are completely correct about their observation, but that was the most self important way to go about it. It's like, hey, man. Cell phones are a part of our culture, but I need your attention. And I'm not liking them back. My grandkids didn't say hello. I can't thank my own kids to my house. Holy cats, man. What What did he open? He basically advised, I have some of an observation for everyone everywhere. Yeah. His perspective was this applies to the whole world. I have nothing important to say. My kids and grandkids are jerks, and I wanna tell the world about it, but also tell the world they're jerks too. It is. It's like attention to everyone who's not me. You suck. But it but it at the same time is true. Completely true. It's just like, put your stinking phone down. I watch. You know? I don't I don't I I have I have a pension. I really hate cell phones. Like, and like, I I am just as guilty as the next guy sometimes. But, like, we went to… Took the kids to amusement park or whatever, you know? And, like, my my five year old daughter wanted to ride the roller coaster. She was just tall enough to do it, and I was like, well, this is gonna be great. She's pumped. I'm pumped. Let's do it. And then we got on the thing, and then, like, there was probably five dads that went on with us, and every single one of them got their cell phones out. They were gonna record the whole thing. And I thought, what are you doing?

Grab your daughter. Hug the site. You know, just be part of this deal, you know. You don't have to post it on Facebook. You don't have to do that. And and and it just… It drives me so nuts. Like, to the point where I don't take a picture of nothing on my phone most of the time. Like, I don't even carry it with me when we're out and about. You know, know, the wife will try to get me take a picture or something. I'm like, I don't have my phone. You know, I don't know. I just I just hate doing it. I hate ruining moments with pictures. And and, like, there's… I'm a little far one way, you know, because I'm like, I don't wanna I wanna forget this moment if it wasn't important. And I'll remember it if it was. And I don't wanna have to have, like, 15,000 photos to be like, I remember that. I remember that. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't know. There's just something about living in that moment instead of trying to immortalize it every time somebody does anything. I see the same thing when people go to concerts nowadays. So people go and see their favorite band and then watch their band through the eyes of their camera. And it drives me absolutely nuts. Like, I went to a concert just a couple weekends or, two

Sundays ago, and there are probably 15,000 people out in the crowd. And I saw thousands of cell phones up during most of the concert. I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, why are you not… There… There's legitimately an an entire

amphitheater of concert going on in front of your face, yet what you wanna look through is I wonder how people are gonna react to the fact that I saw this. I can't wait to show people this on Facebook. It's like, no. No. No. They didn't pay to go to the concert. You paid good money to be here. And it it it runs in the whole situation of we're living through our cell phones. It… It's a cultural thing. And and so I I could not agree more with with this person's premise of their, their observation, but at the same point in time, get over yourself. That's… Actually, that's a good point you make, Bubba, is that people pay big money to be part of a unique experience And then share with their bills. Solely for the purpose of reproducing

that experience in a very poor way Yeah. And sharing it with people who didn't pay to go. Yeah. Exactly. Hey, man. I'm super excited to watch that video of a concert I didn't pay for in really, really crappy audio. Thanks. Thanks, Facebook. You're the best. I need… If if if if they would have presented their case with you're not ruining me, you're ruining yourself. Yeah. You're robbing yourself of joy, and you are cheapening your own life with the way that you're acting. That's the perspective that I have a problem with cell phones with. The the, you know, you didn't help me clear to the table and I hate my kids, not the same perspective.

Stupid kids. It's a real doofus. Here we go. Here's a sec… Here's what a secular response will call. Oh, buddy. Now that you have vented, may I pose a question? While your children were sitting on their fanny's after the meal, did you or your spouse tell them you needed help and that their children needed minding and that their behavior was rude? Because if you didn't, please recognize that the behaviors you described do not spree up overnight, and you may you may be partly responsible for how your children turn out. Woah. Singular. Not inviting them for a long time isn't the answer because they may not get the hit. If you say what's on your mind, you may startle them into modeling better behavior for their children before it's too late. Putting into words how their behavior made you feel would be more direct and more effective. Maybe you send a text? Yeah. Hey. Come and help. Hey, man. As the only non parent in this room, is that the right way to take care of your kids is to startle them into making better decisions? Actually, I've done that before. Sometimes my kids will be, you know, peacefully watching TV, and I will hide behind the couch and scream really loud. And then when they get scared, I say, go clean your room. Put them on the fight or flight response and then say, clean your room. All I know is the room gets clean. So, I mean, I'm it's a win. Here's deal. Some people get attention by, like, yelling at people and expressing their anger. I find that it is easier to just… To, like, scare them in a in a way that they, like, surprise them, and then now you have their attention to say, did did you pick up your train? You should go to jail.

Fair enough. Alright. Hey. And just as a a kind of on the topic, kind of off the topic observation. So on my travels, I ran into something that I never thought I'd run into in my entire life. I ran into a point where I had absolutely no cell service

and also no Wi Fi service. Mhmm. And I have never felt so helpless in my entire life. Like, when I got off the plane in Tokyo, I could not connect to the the Wi Fi there. Yeah. I couldn't figure it out. Like, I was trying to get my phone to do it. It would not do it. My tickets were on my my phone. Everything was on my phone. All this different stuff. And I am completely

helpless in the Tokyo Airport. And so I'm sitting there. I had to finally, like, use my brain for the first time in years. And so I had to go up and ask people directions through the airport and and try and figure out these signs and things like that. I have never realized how dependent I am on my cell phone until that happened. It has never, occurred to me because I I couldn't call anyone. I couldn't text anybody. I couldn't message anybody. There was no

way for me to contact a single person other than to talk to people in front of me and actually have a conversation with people where most of the people in the airport do not understand English, which I was really hoping they would, but that was a very naive thought of mine. They all just kinda looked at me, and I couldn't show them my tickets. I kinda had to just say, Philippines over and over again.

And and finally, someone got me there. But just just from the thought process of of that last, that last, dear life from the path, it just… It was interesting to see how dependent I am on my electronics and how dependent I am on the Internet and contact with other people to even function in a normal situation. Whereas thirty years ago, if you went to an airport in a different place, guess what? Yeah. You're not contacting anyone else. You can't call anybody else. You just find your way,

and you find the next place you need to go to. And I was almost completely helpless to do so. Actually, we were talking about something very similar just a little bit earlier tonight when it comes to, when it comes to scripture, is that we are we are very much blessed and in some ways put it to detriment by the accessibility of scripture, like how easy we can pull it up. And we lose some of the some of the… I don't wanna say h and r because it seems to put it in a category that I'm not aiming for. But it's like people

actually memorizing scripture or, like, having committed things to heart and having kind of permeate through your body and, you know, come back out your pores and just be part of what you do as opposed to I… I'm more likely to treat it as a reference. Oh, yeah. That's… I know that's in here somewhere, then I'll go look for it. And it really loses the flavor as as opposed to I know what God has said or I know how he spoke on this matter, and it is it is part of what I think automatically. And so, I mean, you can be… You can you can do that wrong too. You can memorize scripture in a in a not a healthy way as well, I guess. But, like, there are just… There's just something we seem to lose a little bit about not having to actually take responsibility for having and keeping and holding and using information

as opposed to just saying I have resources at my back end call. And when those resources are gone, we… We've kinda lost our ability to navigate things without them. And and it's a risk that we run because we don't… We are always… I don't know. Our lives are users of things that around us and never like

expressers or purveyors of things that we can know or say or speak or whatever. So, anyway, it's… I think we we are in actually similar risk simply with the access we have to scripture at any given time that we may miss a little bit of the forest for the trees because it's so readily available. Yeah. One of the first things that we lose is a sense of priorities because we've got this hoard of information. And so we don't know how to say, this is stuff that's important. This is stuff that isn't. Because back in the day when everyone just used their brain, then it would be, okay. I'm going to learn the things that are important to me, at least. And the things that are not important, chuck them. Right. But, you know, if I've got all information at my fingertips, then, you know, all information is equally important. So I I have no idea what… Which one's is actually important and which one's not. Right. That's a good point. Now, you know, I was just thinking while you guys talking about that. How many

conversations that I've missed out on because of the availability of information at my fingertips. Like tonight, when I got home, found out my dryer wasn't working. It just wouldn't start. It wouldn't for some reason. And so I started tearing it apart and I thought, I don't know anything about dryers. And so I started looking up, looking for a wiring diagram on the Internet, I found it. You know, and I figured out what the part was and I ordered the part. It'll be here in the next couple of days. You know, problem solved. And and while you guys are talking, I thought, you know,

ten years ago, I'd called my father-in-law. You know, that's a conversation I could've had with him. Hey. I don't know what's going on here. Why isn't my dryer working? Can you help me understand this? You know I'm It's like time that I that I I and I'm not saying the word that's a good or a bad thing. You know, because I'm with I don't have the hassle having my dryer down for like three weeks and you know, gotta go drive to Wisconsin to get apart. But like, there's a lot of that simple relationship stuff that like, you know, I don't I don't have those conversations anymore. I think YouTube's become like the new father-in-law. I I can't

think of how many things I I I… You know, random things. I don't know how to do this. Search it on YouTube. Oh, I'll watch them do it. It's almost ruins the the the the future possibility of professionals though. That's the thing. It's like there's a bunch of people a generation or two below me don't know how to do a freaking thing. Yeah. They know how to look it up. Yeah. But they don't know. They're they're not good at anything. They're they're literally a jack of of the Internet of all trades. They could figure out how to how to cheap their way through just about anything. Sometimes very beneficial. I will not deny the the benefits of the Internet. Right? But like, you're you're looking at guys that that that they just are not professionals of anything. They're not good. They don't have a craft. They don't have, you know, a a job that they take seriously because they can just as easily pick up the skills they need to get a different job in a completely different career sector in a month or two. No big deal, you know? Yeah. And I'm I'm not saying that I pine for the days of the of the, you know, blacksmith apprentice but like, there were some, I don't know, there was some integrity in that in that position. You know what I'm saying? You knew where you were going. You knew the guy to ask, and you just dropped the stuff off and said, I need this blacksmith. I'll see you in a couple days. I had a a copper pipe that was leaking a few months ago from like a

icemaker where, you know, had been punctured into it years ago and and corroded over. I thought, it really needs replaced. That little that little section there that, well, I've never done anything like that. Yeah. Yeah. Who do I know? I got on YouTube. I I probably two or three days. I just watched several. I wanted to kinda let it soak in. And so then I got my saw out and cut everything up and solder or… What do you So I don't know the terminology. Yep. I got it real hot with a You And it's not leaking. You know? Yeah. It'll probably blow someday, but I'll, you know, hope to be out of the house by then. See, that's good. Is that… But you did do it. Right? I did. Helped with something. You checked it out. You learned on it and you you did something. And it was fun. Is that inherently bad? No, that's not bad. You know, but like, did you used to have to call the plumber, man? Yeah. And say, can you walk me through this or can you just come over and do it and I'll buy dinner or something, you know? Exactly. Like, there's there there is a community relationship that you kinda lost a little bit. On the flip side of that though, the the concept of the access of information we have through the Internet also drives me absolutely insane because we have so many people that will not utilize that that resource to its full potential. We've got people that are my age that I I fully hold responsible to be able to do things like this that are not willing to use the Internet to be able to figure stuff out like that. All they'll use YouTube for is to look up their stupid cat videos rather than the fact that they could spend an hour a day on YouTube. Less time than obvious… Obviously hoping to spend less time than that. But an hour a day learning something new. You could learn Greek on the… Exactly. Learning something… The… We have this ridiculous access to information that we have not had historically.

We do not have to go three towns over on a on a six day trip to get access to one person. We have the ability to have teachers and mentors throughout the world at our fingertips, and all we do is watch music videos and stupid videos about food and cats and all this different stuff. Yet people can use the exact same resource, type in the same keystrokes, and actually learn something different about. Heck, watch a cat video, but watch it from the perspective of its anatomy and learn more about the veterinary

perspective. I don't care. It just drives me nuts how people have that access to information and do not utilize it at all. Yeah. But there's a guy that is on the YouTube, and he, like, kinda… I mean, he, beats on his guitar with his open hand, and he's he's amazing. Yeah. If you're learning from that, awesome. And I'm… I don't know. I don't wanna be that guy. I just wanna watch him because he's amazing. He does Billy Idol's White Wedding. I mean, it's it's great. It's really good. Don't get me wrong. That's fine. I watch music videos too. But if that's it, come on. You're not utilizing the information that you have at your fingertips. So so I'm just gonna throw this out here, but isn't kind of our goal to disciple people through the Internet? Yeah. Partially? This is like a guy… Are we part of the problem? Our show is like a guy slapping a guitar. Call call a dude up and make a relationship. That's what I'm saying. Yeah. Hey, if you're listening to the show right now and you're thinking yourself, man, I wish I could reach out to these guys and ask my questions. You definitely can. You can email us at info@livefromthepath.

Oh. And let us know about your questions. We'd be happy to talk to We gotta do buffet. We want a relationship with you from perspective of of growing more together in Christ. I don't know. I… You front loaded the Internet into something I don't know that necessarily have to be. I think you can find… You can spend time getting some enjoyment out of it. You can. I'm not saying take all enjoyment out of the Internet. What I'm saying is use it for other things too. I wholeheartedly use the Internet for my entertainment constantly. I don't have cable at home. If I'm not reading a book, which I try to do more often nowadays, I'm watching Netflix. I'm on YouTube watching stupid videos.

But I also spend my time watching some things that are educational that I learned from because I have access to the Internet and access to that information. Yeah. But that… That's like that's like running into somebody and seeing that they're they're reading Moby Dick or whatever and, like, don't you also read the encyclopedia, you garish boob? You're using books incorrectly. People people are just using the Internet the same way that they live their lives. Some people are just gonna use it for, you know, worthless things and worthless… Which is the sad thing yet, is what I'm saying. Yeah. But but but Harris Point is a good one though. That same guy, if you take the Internet away, is just gonna tie two cats' tails together and send them around. Like, oh, he's just gonna change… We're saving cats. He's gonna change… Did my statement in any way seem pro that guy? No. That guy that guy definitely needs to get his life right. No. But it has nothing to do with the Internet. It's just the

new vacuum or medium by which he expresses that… Which is what I'm saying is the problem, Delman. We have the ability to use that. I'm calling for people to do so. I understand that there's just people who are not going to do so. Right. But if you take… Yeah. But it's not… That is not… The Internet otherwise reveals them. It doesn't cause them. Because that… Because… No. I never said the the Internet causes them. The Internet is a good thing. I've been saying that the entire time. I don't know. Maybe you didn't articulate it well. Apparently not. All I know is I feel like I wanna know a blacksmith. That's all. Mike, do you wanna go into a blacksmith's apprentice apprenticeship together? People used to do cool stuff, you know? Like, I don't wanna know how to fix the dryer. I don't wanna know that. Right? I just want a friend of mine that knows how to do it and he can come over and talk to me. Mike's gonna walk in having made a whole coat of like suit of arms and put in the corner for us in three years. So, the Ren Faire is coming to town. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. You can meet a blacksmith there. He's probably an internet blacksmith. I've been watching YouTube videos.

I've been ordained by the, office of Internet blacksmiths. Yeah. Yeah. Built a foundry based off of YouTube schematic. Listen to this. Ting. That's dead on. That was an anvil. When my phone rings, it makes the anvil noise. We got… You wanna do one more? Let's do one more. Yeah. Yeah. One more. Dear life from the past, three weeks ago, I invited a friend to attend a dinner party I'm throwing. She promised to check her calendar and let me know if she was available. Twelve days went by. Sounds petty already.

Listen to me. Twelve days went by and because I hadn't heard… I'd heard nothing, I assumed she wasn't available and filled the table with someone else. Now she's calling to say she is available, but I already have a full table. What do I do now? Let her know that you filled the table because you took twelve days to let you know. Yeah. Don't hide behind your scaredness to talk to this person. Little jazzed up off that last conversation apparently. Be honest about how things went down. Yeah. I'm with Moov on this. It's not like you're not offending her. I mean, it just is… It's what it is. It's just like, oh, I'm sorry. Well, I mean, you're avoiding this conversation because you were a little bit passive aggressive the first time. Yeah. That's good point. Before you gave it to somebody else, you should have just called them and say, hey. I haven't heard back from you. Are you in or out? What do think? That's a good point. They say, hey. I'm in or I'm not in. But, like, you're embarrassed because you didn't bother to check-in with someone and now the thing actually turned out. Yeah. There was a man in the studio not a month ago that was trying to help us with these exact type of problems by setting time limits and calling things days. You know what saying? Like, I will get back to you within three days. Oh, yeah. Unless you know. And like, if they don't set one, you set one for them. Well, get back to me in three days. Otherwise, I'm putting a bum in that chair, and it ain't gonna be yours. Mhmm.

Whistle. Yeah. He had some good advice. We had to bring him back somehow. Yeah. Really? Yeah. He's too far away. We should… It's connected with him over the Internet so we can be cheap friends over digital bits. Can we just read his book online? Yeah. I knew… No. I mean, like, just actually get his book and then read it into the microphones. Yeah. Do a show that way. Chapter one. You're a dummy. We should record an unauthorized audiobook. Oh, yeah. That would be undistributed on the net. Can I make side commentary? Hey, can we read it aloud and then and then we can make side commentary on it? That's stupid.

Mike's just sitting in the corner. I disagree. Don't steal my lines, man. I also have I know you. That sucked or that doesn't work at all. Well, that sounded pretty dumb. Hyphen Mike Foost. Okay. Yeah. Do do anybody else wanna weigh in on this thing? Or No. So, yeah, I think you're gonna have to… I think you're gonna have to cop to it. You you you you handled this poorly. And I agree she should've got back to you, but the truth is that you also… And what was probably some level of spite or assumption that she has forgotten about you and could have just easily followed up and said, hey, I need to make a decision here where you at. You need… You're gonna have to take this like a man, woman, whatever. You might you might start with I'm sorry. Yeah. Or you might get off whatever propriety chair that you're standing on and bring in another seat. You know what I'm saying? Like, unless you got these people back to the gills in a can, I feel like you could weasel one more chair in there and be like, hey, Anne's coming too? I mean, seriously, when people drop by my house unexpectedly for dinner, I don't say, sorry, full up.

Tucked up. You're gonna have to sit in the truck. We only have four chairs. Gentlemen, I will be calling Mike out on that, and I plan on showing up at his house randomly to see what happens…. Of a drive. I moved out of town for that exact purpose. People don't drop by. I'm willing to do it. Here we go. Secular says, it shouldn't take twelve days to check one's calendar. Your friend was rude in not letting you know right away. She forgot. She was busy tying cat's tails together. People get busy. Maybe she was putting her mom in a home or her kids were sick or… You're defending the tying cats together person? I'm just saying your mind goes other places. Yep. Call your friend and explain that. When you didn't hear from her, you assumed she couldn't make it. So you invited someone else. And don't apologize for it because she owes you an apology. No.

What what… Yeah. If you called a second time and she didn't get back to you, oh, fine. But, like, you're one stop shop and assume that your your thing is top priority on her mind with whatever's going on, that takes a certain level of hubris. But god smile upon me. Everyone's thinking about my dinner party. That makes me sick. You're listening live from the past. Thanks for hanging out with us, on this, lovely evening. I hope you had a good time. We sure love sharing that time with you. I I don't know. People say that stuff. I don't know what that means. Look. If you… I hope you catch us next week, but we have more show probably much similar to the show. If you like tonight, you should join us next week. If you didn't like tonight, you should bail. It's probably gonna be much of the same. If you have suggestions for the show, [email protected]. Make sure you check out Bob Eisenhower with the Bob team. Eisenhowerteam.com

is the guy to go to for buying or selling a home. Thanks, Bob. And… Yeah. Yeah. Be faithful, it means. Gotta take care of the ends. Thanks for listening to you. Live from the Path.