Live from the Pathway Studios in Johnston proper. You are live from the path. And you're listening to Live From The Path coming to you from the Pathway Studios here

in Johnston proper. Are we gonna talk about the Christian that got arrested, Ben? Of course. Of course, we are. Actually, I was I've been thinking for the last three days is like what do we this one this is the problem we have with things that are going on in the real world is our show happens once a week. And so a bunch of puff balls have been talking about this thing for two weeks, and then we get behind and we look like we're just rolling into the conversation. But here's here's where I think we we need to be careful to not avoid conversations like that. Because one, we've had a week to digest it without having a fire off at the mouth. Yep. I've watched every mem on Facebook about her. Here's a picture she's leaving the courthouse. Mem. It's called Meme. No. Right?

Whatever. An e at the end is is a long e. Is a short e. If it was a long e, it would be Meme. Yeah. That doesn't make it Meme. Crap. It is meme. Rats. Boy, I've been saying it wrong forever. Maybe they should take me to jail. Outstanding Christian in prison for not being able to pronounce meme correctly.

So here here's what we got at the show. I've been trying to figure out what I actually wanna talk about about that. Obviously, it's about Kim Davis, the the clerk in Kentucky who's not issuing the marriage licenses because it violates her her conscience in God's law, and so then went to prison. And so I got another I got another competing things in my mind about this entire situation of which this will go back to a broad go to a broad conversation that I continue to struggle with, and I I thought maybe I'd ask about tonight, which is

I feel like that you have to be we often find ourselves as a voice that says, the Christian culture is is jacking this thing up. Right? Like, we thought we've over invested in something. We care about the wrong thing. We need to be focusing on Jesus. But at some point, you have to that that can't be the only thing you're talking about. Right? Like like, that has to transition from if we're not handling this right, what is the right way to handle this? Because, like, this is this is something that I see in my character personally of which I see this is this is not an effective way to do something. And so I'm pretty good at identifying things like that and saying we should put a stop to that. But then I'm not sure I I I traditionally fill it back up with things that actually help. It's just did we stop the wrong thing as opposed to how do we progress the right thing? And and I don't just mean in concept.

I mean, tangibly, practically, dude wakes up in the morning and says, if this is not the way to go about handling the things in Kentucky, what what is? I mean, what read what is the everyday dude supposed to do Monday morning at 8AM that has anything to do with this conversation? And I don't necessarily mean it has to has to be a national mover. I'm just saying, what what does he do? And and I think there's a lot of things where we gotta be careful about talking about, hey. I I think we should not protest. Okay. I agree. What is our reaction to to this? And if it's maybe it's, oh, we need to love people. Great. How? Like, how what do we mean love people? We can give hugs and stuff, and that that's gonna change the the scenario. Like, is it ours to change, or is it god's to change? If it's if it's god's to change, but it's ours to influence, how do we influence it? If it's ours in obedience to do something about, how do we do that? And so I want you guys to hold me to that question.

As we're talking about things and we look back at a broader church culture and we say, look. I think Christianity is we got Christ right. Everything else is really up for grabs. So if we didn't get it right, where do we how do we get it right? And and if the in a tangible way, 8AM on a Monday. How do we get it right? So, anyway, that that's I want you guys to hold me accountable to that question and, otherwise, hold our show accountable to that question. I think that what's that's what keeps our organization productive. So we're that's we're gonna talk about that. There was a I I'm trying to think. Do I have I was debating whether this was Pope style advice or this is the general lament from Ben.

I it seems like a weird distinction as to whether Hold on. You have, like, five segments that you bring up randomly, like Yeah. One, like, Ben's sick of this or Yeah. Two, stuff that irritated me. What what really grinds Ben's gears? I know. Ben's an angry man. They just call him something different every time. We're like, we're gonna do a bimonthly segment called benisirritated.com. This isn't this isn't something that I could do without. It is a it's more of a limit either either aimed at my own life, or it's a Pope style advice of of how a as a group, we probably need to change our ways. This is Ben's a little bit disappointed at this. Yes. Yeah. I'll figure out how to I'll figure out a title. I need a I need a meme for it. That's all I'm trying to think. You don't need a Mimi? Yeah. It I like Mimi better.

Every time my my mouth opens, I think, how can I meme this? And so and I haven't put my finger on it yet. That sounds like something I would say. Agreed. Alright. So anyway, we're gonna talk about that. There was a, I saw an article on Christian Post this week about, actually, I'm just gonna read this article to you, because

it it it reinforces some of the things that we've been talking about recently in a in an end times class, which is, yeah, we we kinda need to pay attention to the things that we believe here and make sure we we we don't latch on to crazy things. But there's a there's a it says Christian politician and sons allegedly bilked 300 believers out of $18,000,000 using end times fear of mystery Babylon. Here's here's question number one. Sorry. 300 believers, $18,000,000. That's a lot of money. I could put 300 believers together, and I could barely get together eight jars of peanut butter. I don't know where he's meeting these guys, but he's 18,000,000 in out of 300 believers. We need to move to the South. Here we go. A former Tennessee state legislator

and his two sons have been charged with multiple counts of wire fraud for allegedly conning more than 300 Christians into buying gold and silver through their financial consulting company and did so by convincing victims they needed to guard themselves against mystery Babylon, a reference to the capitalized end times. Larry Bates and his sons, Charles, Chuck Bates, Robert Bates. Now check out the names of these dudes. You tell me they're not fraudsters. Larry, Chuck, and Bob. Yes. They're run of the mill. They're they gotta be older white guys running a financial Christian services company. They're definitely fraud. And named Bates. Yeah. Like, from the hotel. From the hotel. Yeah. Larry, Chuck, and Bob Bates are definitely not trustworthy. They're also politicians. They no. Yes. That's correct. Yeah. What about this says I should trust all three of these men? Eric. There is enough beacons going off here. I'm definitely gonna trust all three of these men. They were indicted this week in Memphis, Tennessee for using their financial company, First American Monetary Consultants, to sell gold and silver coins and other rare metals to mostly Christian and elderly customers.

According to the FBI and the US Department of Justice, the men who presented themselves as knowledgeable Christian financial and political advisers. Because oh, here's some way this article is written is is questionable. Right? Like, what are the alternatives? Hi. I I don't know much, but I'd like to help you with your money. I've been known to bilk people. Are you willing to be bilked?

Got away with taking people's money and failing to deliver the promised goods for more than twelve years. The Bates alleged victims span numerous states, including Texas, Alabama, Kansas, Vermont, Oklahoma, Missouri, Florida, and Massachusetts. Now here here's what's interesting is if you're gonna say maybe this is more of a critique on this writer. You're gonna say span numerous states. You listed what was it? Eight states? Seven states? What's the use of get using a broad overview that says, hey. It's a lot of states. By the way, I'm a list every one of them. Here they are specifically. Spanning every one of the states I'm about to say. Here's 15% of the states in the union. Anyway, there's a numerous somehow.

Cornucopia of states. That's the indictment allegiance. Turned into the segment, Ben. Yeah. Stuff that irritates Ben. Okay. Yeah. That's fine. That this is gonna work. Meme it. Ben critiques an article. The here's actually, here's what's rough times. I'll I'll tell this. Rough times in my life. Reading articles and going to concerts are two things that really are a problem for me. And it has to do with and the the the English folk will will will sympathize. It's very difficult to read articles that aren't written correctly. And, like, I'm not even that good. I'm prone to to various mistakes. It's just when you see it and you're like, boy, you really could have done this better. And then going to a concert, if you're a sound guy or sometimes a musician just depends. Like, listening to a concert, you're like, boy, this could use a lot to 60 hertz bump on that kick drum there, Pedro. You know it ain't loud in here. By the way, if you're wanting to vet what he just said, listen to all the past live from the past shows and listen to him read an article and see how many times he says unnecessary colon.

Unnecessary colon. No. That's true. Hyphen for no reason. We could make that our next album. Benfood presents hyphen for no reason. Track one. Track two, Prince, he's not needed.

Here we go. As the indictment alleges, the defendants defrauded unsuspecting victims of more than 18,000,000 by promising to purchase gold and silver coins on their behalf. US attorney Edward l Stanton said, oh, Edward's Ed Stanton? Do you guys remember the name Stanton? Is that's it? Of the Stanton Linden? No. No. No. No. No. Stan Stanton was the Did think of Stanton? He was he was the secretary of war during

Yeah. The civil war. I have no idea. Alright. Anyway. Yeah. Sorry. We're gonna get to this article eventually. It was said in a Wednesday press release. Unfortunately, hundreds of these victims never received the coins they purchased. Instead, their money was used by the defendants to fund lofty salaries and exorbitant lifestyles. Some of that funding might have also gone to Bates' numerous properties, including a three story multimillion dollar mansion with an elevator. Sorry.

Why would you mention that particular detail? It's multimillion dollars. Is the is the elevator a surprise at this point? Probably a city code. It probably wasn't like, oh, let's go over the top and put an elevator. Yeah. Probably, it's a multimillion dollar mansion, but even worse, it's got an elevator. He's he's opulent. He goes up easily. Ironically, Bates reportedly used to chair the committee on banking and commerce during his time in Tennessee's house of representative, which is from 1971 to 1976.

And what check out this listen to this description. In one 2,010 video pitch for an upcoming book, Bates touts his expertise by stating, as a former bank CEO, I have literally created millions of dollars out of thin air with the stroke of my pen, and I charged interest on that which I created out of nothing. Wow. Or you could skip the detective interrogation. Was gonna say, here's what I did. I had nothing, and I sold it for big money. According to the indictment, the Bates trio used their broadcast company, Information Radio Network, as a means of advertising, promoting, and soliciting the sale or purchase of gold and silver to and from individuals nationwide according to the FBI and Department of Justice. Bates claimed after 2008 merger with USA Radio Network that IRN was one of the largest radio news networks in America and largest Internet radio news product on the market. I disagree, sir. They don't have us. That is correct. We won't be sold to the man. Pivotal to their alleged scam was convincing IRN listeners, potential customers that it was vital to shield themselves from impending economic, political, and religious upheaval, a period Larry Bates referred to as mystery Babylon.

The phrase mystery Babylon appears in Revelation, the final book of the Bible. In Revelation seventeen five, an apocalyptic picture is painted with the description of a woman, and on her forehead was written a name of mystery. Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth's abominations. While there are numerous theories as to the identity of mystery Babylon, whether the bible text is describing a person, place, or system, for example, Larry Bates taught his viewers, listeners, and readers that it was a demonic blend of the world system of economics, politics, and religion, as he states in one of his dozens of videos promoting himself and his books. Whether Bates, who presented himself as a man of god, truly believed his end times theories are used to finance his companies as the government alleges, he and his sons convinced enough of their IRN listeners they needed to buy gold and silver from them to forestall against the future economic collapse. Now here's the question. Let's say you thought the end times was coming, Mike. I'm ready. What about gold is gonna be helpful, man? I feel like Jesus can be persuaded with gold.

Hey, Jesus. I'm scared of what's coming next. I've got a couple pieces of gold, though. Isn't there a verse where Jesus says, I I counsel you to buy gold from me? Yeah. No. Seriously. No. Yeah. Revelation first. Yeah. It's in Revelation. Correct. But it's not from this guy. No. It's not. They're not expecting to see Jesus yet. They're expecting a thousand year reign of Satan, so, they need to have gold. Maybe they expect the service economy in The US to tank during the seven years of tribulation. So here's my here's my question about and I don't I get this is what I don't understand. I can never connect this with people that think that. As they say, where the the economic collapse is coming, the dollar won't be worth anything. Everyone wants like, make sure to hoard gold. But the truth is is, like, in an economic collapse, you know what's helpful? Land and bread. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Things that produce food. Yeah. Who who am I gonna do? I'm gonna trade gold with another rich guy who also doesn't produce food. He's getting his food from other people who have land. And so I I just I don't know. I, like, I get the doomsday hoarder. I get that guy. Like, I think he's nutty, but I get him. I don't get the gold hoarder. I feel like like you're gonna be Scrooge McDuck, and you can't eat gold, and you can't live it. What are gonna do with it? That's what I've always thought too. He's like, what? They get some land. Point. Then you run out, you're like, woah. Now what? You go buy a farm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that and that's another that's true, Dan. Like, you're gonna run out of gold at some point. You know who isn't gonna run out of food? The guy with the land. Yeah. Yeah. The the only time gold would actually beat something of even remote value is if you thought that the United States government was about to be taken over by someone else, and the dollar's gone, but the gold can be traded to whoever the next power is. So if you really believe that The United States is about to be taken over by China, you can just turn all your dollars into gold, and then when China comes in, hail our new dictators and say, hey, I've got this gold I'd like to change for whatever China's currency is. And here's the deal. China is the king of fake currency. I feel like they don't care about your gold. Well, I mean, I mean, it's an arbitrary thing that we've decided is worth something. Yeah. You know what saying? We could've just as easily picked potatoes. Yeah. And said, we're basing all our currency off potatoes. Gold has been pretty for a couple of thousand years, so it works out. I mean, we we really did. We looked at something. We said, this appears, I don't know, semi rare. Yeah. So it's worth big money, but we're gonna base all money off of it. Yeah. Well, it didn't make any sense at all. Actually, the that's in origin. The people we or used to be able to say that you would find like a rock of gold or something and say, hey, I'll trade you 24 carats for And then that's how that's how the the price came about. I'm not one of your kids. Okay. That one's only worth 18 carats. Mike, I'm not gonna lie. I was watching you to see how much you believed in what he was just saying. I've lived my whole life with these kind of lies. Here we go. The former politician also enjoyed airtime on Christian programs

like Jim Baker's and Sid Roth's television shows. Boy, if that doesn't bring credibility. Roth introduced Bates in one 2,012 episode as it's It's supernatural show as a strong Christian who he believed has been given wisdom from God on what to do in these times. I don't know how he can call himself a Christian when he's stealing from people. One victim from Wyoming who lost his life savings said in one news report, agreed. Let's see. Before the indictments of the week, there are dozens of financial complaints lodged against Bates,

and this being charged with fraud multiple counts. They say they they face up to twenty years in prison and up to $1,000,000 in fines if convicted. Now he hold on. How much did they take? 18,000,000. 18,000,000? And how much was the fine? 1,000,000. Okay. This seems worth it. That sounds like profit. Exactly. I could be wrong. That's tricked as a cost of doing business. Yeah. They got twenty years. That twenty years and $17,000,000

profit sounds about right. Yeah. Yeah. That's a trade. Can I keep my elevator? What what do you do to my home? I have a very convenient elevator Here's in the thing. Here here's what I wanna be careful. Do not do not make investment devices off a very shallow reading of Revelation.

As a matter of fact, don't make decisions based upon your reading of the book of Revelation unless you vetted it out. And I mean, really vetted it out. And if you look at it and say, hey, I'm just not sure what this means. Do not make decisions on that. Do not say, I don't know what this means. I'll buy gold. This guy seems convincing. Three white hair, former politician, claims to be Christian. Yeah. This makes a lot of sense. I've just you know, I you know, the thing is with the book of Revelation, logic seems to completely go out the window. Because the the the layman, we'll call him Mike, reads the Book of Revelation and goes, I have no idea what text going on here but I do know somebody that does. We'll call him Jesus and so I think, if I just follow Jesus, he seems to have the tail of this dog. I'll just wait and see what happens. Like, I could I could literally like if if if that's your bag to roll through revelation and dig on it and and actually, I've, you know, I've been going through some classes and stuff and actually, I think it's very beneficial to understand it correctly but if if all that gets washed away and I just can go, hey, man. This book of Revelation appears that God is in control. I will follow him. That's probably enough. Right? That will get me through most everyday situations without doing something too stupid. Yeah. So so like, here's maybe the principle that I'm that I'm after, which is if you don't understand, don't make decisions based upon not understanding. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Like like, the Bible is full of very clear things, things that are not debatable, that we that we struggle with even though Jesus is clear. And so the I I think knowing where we where we live kind of in that circumstance, is it just outright foolish to then approach something and say, I don't understand this. Perhaps I should make life decisions based upon it. When when there's nothing else in scripture that is kind of holding on to that. Like, there's nothing about me loving Jesus that says I should invest in gold.

I just I just I'm not there at all. Like, I don't understand the connections that that that we made there. So just like, the truth is the less informed you are, the more someone else can use that as a weapon. Right? Like, misinformation becomes a ease a bat of which and a club of which you can then, herd people into corners and make them do what you want because they don't understand and you apparently do. That is the risk of false teachers. It's it's funny. If you look at, Peter's letters and Paul's letters, like, almost every one of them touches out, like, watch out for this guy. Watch out for a false teacher. They've they've gone through to a church. They've set up a group of people that love Jesus, a community of people that love Jesus. And they've gone through and now they're writing back and say, wash out. Watch out for false teachers. Right? And it's it's that it's that basic misunderstanding

that says that he's gonna take your ignorance and they're gonna use it against you, which means you cling even tighter to Christ, and and you make sure that you're trying to fill yourself with with knowledge. And and and this is maybe I'm not hesitating, Mike, on what you're talking about. But what I'm saying is is that I feel like Christ has given us the ability. He's provide the Holy Spirit has provided us something to read and to understand. And And our responsibility in pursuing it is to get to know God better and to reduce the amount of misinformation that we can otherwise be deceived with. That makes sense? Yeah. Yeah. I get it. I I would say well, I think I would stick with my original point, though. Like, in the absence of me of having the full understanding of what I think it's bringing forth, I can always fall back on following Jesus. You know what I'm saying? Like, I feel like that's pretty clear. I'm I'm not saying that there's not lessons for me to to be gleaned from the book of Revelation. I'm not saying. No, yeah, I hear you. But I I guess what I'm saying is like there's there's there's in fact that that's true of of almost the entire Bible. Like there's a reason that that when I do my you know when I'm reading god's word that certain stuff pops out of me, right? So, holy spirit giving you a quick oval and says, that's you. Hey, dummy. I'm talking to you. I want you to pay attention to this. I got stuff for you to do concerning the things that I'm the the of what you're reading and and so like I I think the the the same is true overall, right? As long as you're you're you're you're seeking god's heart on things, he will hit you with him. The holy spirit will lead you where you need to go and like he doesn't normally have to send a guy that has you trying to protect yourself against the coming of Christ. Right. You know I'm saying? Like, hey, store up this because because the lord's coming. Like, usually, the the lord's description of when he shows up is, drop everything, man. I'm here. Yeah. Your worries are done now, you know, and this guy's like, hedge up. Be ready for walls. We get, you gotta protect yourself against the coming of a sovereign lord. Right. And and maybe that's the things. We gotta be careful about this came a lot up actually in in the our recent end times class, which is you have to recognize if you believe one thing, you have to recognize what you can't believe at the same time. And the primary example was there. If I have if I have to believe from my end times perspective that the temple has to be reinstituted, then I can't believe that Jesus' death on the cross covered everything if if it requires a rebuilding of a temple. Like, it's it's simply I I can't hold those two things and say that they both can be true. It it it they can't they they don't withhold. And so in your example though, like, if if we're not supposed to be if we're supposed to be storing up treasures in heaven and and not things that will will rust on earth, and then this guy's saying, hey, the end of times is coming. You should store up stuff on earth. Like, I can't hold those two things together. You say what now? Because that that don't ring right. Yeah. Like like those and so it is not so much, like, when presented with things that you're not sure about in scripture, compare it to things that you know and say, can I believe these two things together? Can they fit together? And if they can't, then I gotta let one of them go. Alright. Anyway,

I'll just be careful. Maybe don't maybe maybe don't maybe don't buy gold from former politicians. I mean, you could buy gold if you want to. You know what I'm saying? But like, it's it's the the the base of what you're coming from. Like, you're buying gold because you find it to be a good financial investment to whatever, you don't buy it. But like, if you're trying to hedge against the coming of Jesus, I mean, what are you doing? What are you buying for? Yeah. Really. That's not a good reason to buy gold. Yeah. Yeah. I suppose anything where you say, I'm doing x in preparation from the coming Christ that has to do with you acquiring things or preparing. Yeah. Unless it's short of introducing other people to Jesus, Then maybe you need to let that go. Yeah, man. Thief in the night doesn't be like, I'll wait till you're done stacking your bullion. And then I will knock.

Hey, man. The doorknob's on your side. How do I get in? Actually, that's the that's funny. That's old church funny. No. Here's the deal. The the funniest part about that picture is a lot of times we talk about it's it's I don't know if you guys guys have seen it, but it's it's the picture of Christ is standing outside the door and there's no doorknob. Right? You have to let him in from the inside. And so that comes from Revelation. That is about the church. The church. Yeah. That is about the church. That is not for like, hey, you need to it's not for winning people to Jesus who don't know him. It's from the church. And like,

Jesus is the king of the burn. He's the king of hey, by the way, here's the door. The man that you profess love for and will follow anywhere. You need to let me into the to the meal. I can't seem to get in here. And you know what's funny about that same picture? Is the last time Jesus wandered in somewhere, he just went through the wall. No. It's true. He just said, hey. What's up?

He just he just went right through. I see you've installed the door. I find that funny. I've entered. Alright. Alright. You're listening to Live From The Path. Hey. Thanks for listening to us so far. If you wanna catch up with the show, go you to lifefromthepath.org. Can catch past clips, full episodes, both audio and video, and clips from the show, including from a musical recent musical musical artists like Driven Eleven and Foreverland. And lots of lots of good options out there. Make sure you go check that out at lifefromthepath.org.

And also, big thanks to our sponsor, Bob Eisenhower. Go to the eisenhowerteam.com for all your home buying and selling needs. Bob is just the guy to help you out. It's I don't know where the market's at really. Think I ordered, like, four months ago. Well, actually, Bob was just in here a few weeks ago. Yeah. He said he said it was fairly strong. Yeah. It still seems pretty robust market, which means that if you wanna get in, it seems like you good got a good shot at getting it sold. And and Bob's your man to help that. It makes the process dead easy. And here's the deal. Home home selling isn't actually all that difficult. It's finding the right buyer and, putting your house at the right price. And, people will struggle with that. They'll they'll overprice it or they'll underprice it, and they don't get as much as they should have. That's what the realtors are for. Right? They know the market. They know how to get it in the right eyes looking at your listing and and has set at the right price to get a speedy sale, man. And so that's Bob's gig. Listen, people are irritated by arrogance. Right? Like, if you see a house listing and you're like, hey, this and this, here's all the attributes. 275,000.

You gotta be kidding me. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? People are irritated with you right off the bat. They haven't even seen your house. Actually, I I I run into that phenomenon at at garage sales. Like, I won't buy from someone. If I walk in and I feel like they've overpriced something, I'm not buying from here. Yeah. You're arrogant. Your used shirt is not worth $5. Yeah. $2.50 is the max for a shirt. And that mean this thing better be high quality Oxford Oxford cotton. But for me to pay $2.50 for a shirt at a garage sale. And I suppose that's the deal though. It's like that seems like a minor thing. But I I really would bypass a house if I felt like they they thought too highly of themselves. Yeah. I wouldn't look at it. I wouldn't inquire about it. I'd be like, you know what? Forget it. I I won't buy this. These dudes is the same guys will price their set of old golf clubs they used in ten years at, like, a $150.

And then when no one buys them, they'll give them the goodwill the next week. You know, I would have bought them for $10 if you'd have priced them right. I'd have picked them right up. Anyway, life lessons from the garage sale. Just use Bob Eisenhower. Go to eisenhowerteam.com. Bob can help you make sure you get your house priced right. Get it from the right folks. I've we've we've seen him do it time and time again. He's just him and his team are just awesome at that kind of thing. So make sure you hook up with Bob. Eisenhowerteam.com. Give Bob a call and let them kinda help you get everything straightened out. And even if you don't know, maybe you're you're hesitant to get in the market. You just wanna know what your house is worth to see whether you wanna pursue something or just see what's out there. Just give him a call, man. He can help you with that stuff. He can either help you with it right now or maybe it's something where you're just kinda preparing for it and keeping your eye over the next year. He'll help get you started on the right track. Eyesalonerteam.com.

And big thanks to Bob for sponsoring the show. He he's what keeps this rickety train rolling. He pays in gold, which is weird. I know. I've talked to him about that. He always hands it to me in a in an envelope marked mystery Babylon. I say, Bob, this is creepy. Hey. Here's the deal, though. It'll it'll act as a 0.25 in the grab a stuffed animal claw machine. I was in a pinch one time, and I used one of the Eisenhower bullion in there, and I I want a stuffy. Alright. So here's here's the big question. Our our our advertising presence is second to none. It's the greatest thing we've ever heard.

Bob pays with bullion. I don't know why people are knocking the doors down. Eisenhower team, we won't sell your used shirts for too much. Hey, actually, here's the deal. In all honesty, if you love the show, I'd I'd I don't know how else to put this. Like, we're not on air for free. We don't make money. We hedge it. Which means we have to pay it to the radio station to be on the air, and we could really use another sponsor. Right? So if you dig on the show and could put up with our Yeah. Our mediocre advertising videos. We will come up with a great commercial for you even. Bob's got a strong back and all, but I mean, he's carry the show for so long. He's asking a lot of him.

Is it frankly, it is it is how we stay on the air. It's just the way the world So it's something you're interested in. We'd love to talk to you about it. And we can we did consider changing our ways for you. I feel like we could learn and grow from your situation. Yeah. Unless you dig on what we do, then we're glad to help and share that. Shoot me an email [email protected]. If I if three weeks from now, if I've not heard from everybody, I'll get desperate. I might give you my home phone number. But let's let's stick with the email for now, just in case you're a [email protected]. He could be like it could be a guy that runs like a street vendor, like suspicious chili dogs or whatever. Like he own here's the deal. Never trust a hot dog vendor that only sells chili dogs.

You think he's covering up the Yes. Hot dog with chili? Yeah. If he won't sell the straight hot dog, but only sells chili dogs, he's up something fishy. Have you run into this guy? No. Oh. What if he just sells world class chili dogs? Cover it up because they're like green. They're green like faux pork with gristle. How do you make faux pork? How do you get a phony a phony pig to slaughter?

Tofu. Tofu. Tofu dogs are not that bad. Tofu and Lowry's? That's pretty much the deal. Tofu and Lowry's makes faux porn. So here's the here's the question. Is do you we've been well, we didn't get in on this conversation last Monday. It happened basically Monday is when everything came to head in Kentucky. You've had a week to stir, take in the social media backlash outrage, blowhardened,

take in more news and stuff. What is what is the average man who wakes up tomorrow morning, Tuesday morning, 8AM? What does he need to do, think, say, whatever in regards to Kim Davis in Kentucky not issuing marriage licenses? What what do you what does the average man do if they're Kim Davis? Or or just in reaction to what happened? Yeah. His what what does his world look like tomorrow? Does he does he even involve himself in it? If he does, in what way? What does he care? What does he read? What does he do? What does he say? Does he use Eisenhower to list his house? What does he do?

Well, yes to the last one. You you know, I like I had I had a I had a couple strong conversations about this particular topic. And I was actually amazed on how apathetic it was to the whole thing. You know I'm saying? Like, here's I I I couldn't get past to the point it's like, where does this brand of thinking end? You know, like, if if if you say, I don't wanna be part of a situation where other people are sinning. Well, I mean, how big of a room are you gonna build in your house that you can't ever leave? You know what I'm saying? Like, I can't shop at Walmart. I can't get gas. I can't cross the street because a sinful man probably built the street. You know what I'm saying? Like, I I maybe you quit. Maybe your conscience says, look, I I I feel like I can't be a part of this. You quit. Okay. I think I'd have been okay with that.

But, like, I there seems to be a conversation about whether it is a federal government regulation versus whether it's legal in Kentucky, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Look, it's your job, man. They pay you to sign licenses. Yeah. If you're not gonna do your job, then I feel like you have to respectfully decline and and quit. You know what I'm saying? It's like, I think you have to quit. I don't think you can keep. That's like me being getting a job as a mechanic, and they're like, look, we want you to fix engines. And I say, I serve ice cream, bud. I don't fix engines. Well, you're fired. Oh, I don't think so.

I'm an ice cream man. I'm not going anywhere. Drag me away from that too. You know, like, I mean, you agreed to do the job. It's on a a a an agreement basis. We're agreeing to pay you. You're agreeing to show up and do what we ask you to do. As soon as one of them has has not holding up their end of the bargain, I feel like you have to quit. And, like, that's kinda where I'm at. I I I just I don't see the big hullabaloo. I don't see that, there's religious persecution in there. And I actually I don't I don't I just I'm not sure of the soapbox that you're standing on. Right? Like, are you personally sinning? Is it a personal sin?

I I mean, you're you're you're processing state issued non godly marriage licenses. Like, I mean, you're basically signing paper. I mean, that that as soon as you leave the building, someone else gonna come in and do it for half the wage. The state's gonna make a bargain. Like, would it be from your perspective then, Mike, is it tantamount to the guy who signs people up for

the I don't know, the grocery saver package at the Hy Vee, and if they put it out as two spouses, and it could be same gender or whatever. Like the guy processing that paperwork as far as what you care about the state's marriage license, is that where you're sitting at? Yeah. Yeah. Like the state of Kentucky or the federal government as far as I'm concerned, they they don't hold my marriage certificate. You know what I'm saying? The Lord says my wife and I are one. He makes that distinction. And whether you agree to give me a tax break or not, seems to be your business. But apart from that, like, I just I I guess I just don't see the deal. I I basically, I what I what I came down to was is I don't know that a personal conviction for me, I think I'd just probably signed the licenses. It's my job. If I felt like it was something I didn't want to be a part of, that it was helping people to be farther away from God, I'd quit. And I'd got a different job, I guess. But like if if the tact is is that you are evangelizing or somehow furthering the love of Christ to people

by running the marriage license station in Kentucky, I feel like you are sadly mistaken on the evangelical possibilities from that desk. I could be wrong. I mean, it feels like you could probably get to know more people and introduce Christ if you just stayed inside the licenses. At least you'd be having a face to face, and you can have some talks to them. But like the arguments that I heard of when people come in and say, why don't you hire why don't you give us this license? Well, something that's I don't know. I I can't remember what what the things that were said, but they were not loving. They were pretty much you're in judgment. God is my judge, and he will be your judge because you're sinning against him. Well, I don't know if you've reintroduced the love of Christ to anybody. You've just basically slapped them in the face with a God they don't know. Tell them how much you have disdain for them, and, you're not gonna sign their license, which basically means I'm paying you not to do your job in Kentucky. Bubba?

I've also had a couple conversations this week where people have gotten a little bit upset at me because I was willing to say, hey. No offense to The USA. You are pretentious if you think that the law that you pass is enough to to take away from what God has called something. You do not have nearly as much power as you think you do. I'm sorry.

You do not get to dictate what what God calls his marriage. The covenant between him and you and another woman or you and a man speaking to a woman from that perspective. It just it just made I know. It it just made me laugh because I thought to myself, I'm like, this gal is is stepping up saying, well, God does does not go for this, and you guys are doing awful things and stuff like that. I'm like, yeah. Heck, yeah. You're not in any way furthering the kingdom of God by what you're saying right now. So so you're trying to take it off like you're standing on on moral ground with God that makes it so that you don't have to do this job and you can be judgmental about it. And I'm thinking to myself,

what are you doing? Like, you are you are in a perfect position to not necessarily, like, completely change someone's life unless God wants you to through that situation, but you have the opportunity to show God's love through this rather than completely condemning the people that are coming to you. Now I I I feel like I would sign the marriage license too. I don't think it's that big of a deal because like just like Mike said, you're not going against God by doing that is in my eyes. It's it's a state issued license. It's not God has completely changed his his perspective on what marriage is. When The United States Of America made it legal throughout the entire country, gay gay marriage legal throughout the entire country, God didn't go, well, I guess I've gotta change my mind of what marriage Yeah. Exactly. Looks like America, that puny country that means really ultimately nothing in the long grand scheme of things, has completely changed me. No, God's unchanging. His love hasn't changed, and his rules haven't changed. Now hold on a second. I I I think we run a risk here though of of

taking the fact of of saying what is true as if it is not God's love. You you understand what I'm saying? So like we say, hey, you didn't you didn't love this person. Well, the question would be and and this is the general principle about talking to anybody about the fact that they might be on the other side of God here, which is that it would be completely unloving to otherwise not represent what God says is true. Now I I agree. I would be the first guy to say that, like, that has to sit within in the context of God's love for them anyway.

And, like, the the the grand narrative being reconciled to God through that. However, I I think you gotta be careful about saying, we weren't loving in a circumstance if otherwise, like, it isn't as simple as we don't say anything. So what is so what does that mean? How does that look then? Well, so so when I say the person is isn't bringing love, I I agree with you. We are called to to call what God's judgment is. We are called to to call sin where it is. We are no way, supposed to stand behind only God can judge me. That's that's not true in any way. Yep. We are called to call out sin. However, it doesn't sound like from what I've read and what I've seen that this gal was calling out sin from the perspective of, hey,

God loves you through your sin and this is what happened. Saying you're wrong and and homosexuality is a sin and all the good stuff, inherently, what you've done is great job. You've shown someone their sin, but that's not it. You have to take that further. Yes. That's a step. Someone needs to realize that they're out of line with God before they can get back in line with God, but that's not it. You don't just stop at, hey, you're wrong. You you start with, hey, unfortunately, what you're doing is I I I understand where you come from, but God it it's not with what God wants. Here is what God wants Mhmm. And here's why. And by the way, God knows you're flawed, but he loves you entirely. And then guess what? You got this sweet guy Jesus to talk about and all of the stuff that he's done. We don't just stop at calling out sin. We call it sin from the perspective of repentance and, from the perspective of we want that person to be in line with God. Right. Not just to know that they're out of line. So the the point of the point of calling out people sin is to otherwise then redirect them. Exactly. If your if your conversation does not contain that element, then you've you've wasted the break. Is that what you're saying? But the concept of the only guy can judge me comes from people that just say, hey, you're wrong.

That's You know, it's it's it's funny. It's like, I've never had it happen that way. I've never called out a guy's sin and then started to talk to him about Jesus. I've always had them point out their own sin or introduce him to Jesus and then the holy spirit shows up Like to like I I I don't know. I I'm not saying it can't work that way. I mean, god does what he wants, you know? But like in my experience, I I I have yet to have it go down that way. I've always had someone seeking Christ come find me or they've began you know, we've talked about Jesus and then their sin starts to come up and they self identify it. They say, I feel like god is asking me to get rid of these things or they don't line up with what god's got going and maybe that is just my experience but like, standing at like like, I mean, seriously, what if if we say that's one of the tenants of our deal that we point out sin, you could literally just stand yourself out of somewhere and and say, sinner, you're sinner. Hey, there's a go there goes a guy. He's sinning. Check him out. Mike, that's our next social experiment. We're gonna go to a mall, put you on a soapbox, and you're just gonna call people sinners. We're gonna see what happens. And they'll say, hey, you look like you have a lot of joy. Thanks for calling me a sinner. Can you tell me the source of your great never ending kingdom of joy? Hey, man. Feel like you know this Jesus Christ. I mean, I'm not sure what kind of pamphlet you've been reading, but this is a terrible way to do things. You know people? People don't act like this. So ultimately,

to answer the the original question of what someone's supposed to do in light of this situation. Honestly, the only thing I can think of is Jesus's commandments have not changed because of this situation. Like, you have the same general things you're supposed to be doing. We're not supposed to be swayed by things that happen in the world and then just stop doing the normal stuff. You're still supposed to go out and talk to people about Jesus and and win them over for Christ and further the kingdom of Christ. Now conversations

may get pointed a little bit towards this where someone may ask you, hey, what are your thoughts on this most recent recent situation, stuff like that? I'm not saying shy away from it and go, hey, I'm not gonna answer that question, but do you know who Jesus is? Yeah. Because that'd be really awkward. I don't have any legit thoughts. Jesus has thoughts. But I have never seen the furthering of king of God's kingdom happen from just latching on to a popular thing that's happening in the world and then calling out why it's a bad thing. I've I've just not seen it happen like that. So I don't think our only job is to just to sit there and go, hey. Let's debate about this. You still have the same things you need to be doing. Go out and talk to people about Jesus. Love on people from his perspective. No matter what they're in, you are called to love them. You you love your neighbors, and that's everybody. That and I know that that's a broad spectrum thing of love, but in every situation, love means something different. That's what we serve, broad spectrum love. Well, unfortunately,

I can tell you either love them by going and sitting with them and talking with them for a couple hours because you they just want someone to listen to them, or love them by going and changing someone's tire, or love them by going and buying someone lunch that really needed it, or buy their kids some clothes or just hang out with somebody. There's plenty of ways we can do that. But any situation, you need to find out how you can love that person. And, unfortunately, I don't have a specific thing that every person can do tomorrow morning. Just love on people, and what that means is find out how you can do that in each situation with every person you've talked to. Dan, is that the right way to engage this thing? Oh, man. I've been kind of all over the place

on this. Originally, my first my first initial thought was people were saying, man, this is a really bad persecution. And I thought, I don't know if I'd use the word persecution. You know? That seems kinda strong. And then I hear things like, well, she was given put in jail with with no bail.

It's like, well, there are mass murderers out there that have bail. You know, it's like, really? I mean, they they they're, like, extra harsh. They're making an example of Exactly. Fired makes sense. Jail doesn't. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Is it a jailable thing? I don't I don't find a fired, whatever. For if I were her, I kinda go on the the

the standpoint of I would resign before I would sign or hand out those licenses because of my personal convictions. I just can't be a part of what they're calling marriage. You know, I I can't I can't go with that. So if I was put in a position where, hey, the rules have changed, then I would just have to change my employment. That that that's kind of where I'm at. I saw I in in, you know, in some ways, I respect what she did. Oh, because I also understand, you know, these are the people who came, like, from another state and drove down with TV cameras. You know? It wasn't like some dude who randomly came up to the counters. Oh, yeah. My my boyfriend and I, they're to get married. I mean, it was totally set up. I mean, it was a total and so so that that changes the game. I don't understand how that does change the game, right? That's completely. Well, I mean, that's behavior I would totally guess to happen.

Yeah. But I mean, I I think like in in your conversation, it changes your demeanor. It changes. Suddenly, you're on you're already on the defensive because you're seeing cameras. You already know you're in a trap. So it's not it kind of throws out some of the rules of what we're saying of I wanted to have a conversation with the people. No, that's actually a bunch of. They're not there to have a conversation. People that people that say that. Like, I I I understand what you're saying but like, this is complete pamphlet talk. I don't know. I don't know who you know but like it doesn't ever work that way. It doesn't it doesn't ever work that way. Like, hey, I'm here to do some sinning. I'd like to talk to about Jesus. Well, no kidding. Well, let's sit down. You know what saying? Like, it doesn't work that way. So I think bottom line is as as believers, whatever job you have, you will more and more in the coming days, weeks, years,

be in a position where you will have to make a choice on your conscious. And you need to just understand it comes with a price sometimes, and Jesus said it would. So you're a kingdom person, you do the kingdom thing. If it comes with a price, it comes with a price. If you lose your life, you lose your life. You you know, it's it's just what happens.

So don't whine about it. It's just what it is. It's it's what is we are part of the opposition kingdom, so to speak. And it that's just part of being a follower of Christ. You know you know, it's maybe what's odd is that this kind of stuff hasn't been going on for the last couple hundred years. We we've been in a little bubble, you know, which is what has made us soft in the first place. And, that bubble has burst, you know. So so we're we're shocked, and we don't know how to react.

We don't know how to respond. And and so we're we're we're grasping at straws, and we're gonna make some goofy mistakes to the church as a whole. I'm saying we're we're gonna do some goofy things as we figure this thing out because we haven't lived in a land where they're dragging us out to deserts cutting their heads off. That may come, but that's just not where we've been. That's not what we've known. So we we suddenly think, you know, it's Babylon or something, you know, we're, you know, we go to crazy things because because that's just the reality we've been at. Right? You know, right. So that's where I'm kind of all over the place. Yeah. Like, I would probably,

you know, in an armchair situations, yeah, I I would probably just resign and not do that. That, you know, you're losing your pension. You lose mean, you there's there's a lot of things that are attached to that. Yeah. So I just But I wouldn't sign them. I don't understand. It like it once again, it has to do with the big ticket sin. And like, you you'd have to completely ignore everything else that that's against the principles of what God sets out to take a job anywhere. Like, can't Are you marrying people who are cohabiting it? You you give out driver's license because they give them back to drunk drivers. Yeah. So now you gotta quit that job. And then you start to work at the get and go and you you're selling beer to people who shouldn't be drinking it and you're and people who cigarettes and people who are dying from it and Twinkies from a guy that probably should have quit 15 Twinkies ago. Yeah. Have to be careful. I mean, yeah, you have to be careful because like you're right. Yeah. See, but that's the thing. The Christians like to call out the sin that's not their problem, but it's completely okay for them to work at the get and go. I'm This sure is a hypocrisy that I don't understand. I'm I'm sure she's given out

marriage licenses to maybe two Buddhists who come up. Right. They're in the same situation. The difference here is that it's public sector. It's not a it's not a private corporation or private entity. Uh-huh. So, you know, if you're of the belief that, you know, it's God and country, and and the country is supposed to be a reflection of the voters, I guess, then it means that you have some kind of vested stake involved in the whole thing. Where as opposed to if she happened to work HR at Hy Vee and was just refusing to sign offs on spousal bonuses to whoever was there,

This is a whole different situation because it's a public thing. If you actually see yourself as somehow involved in that. But I mean, you you you don't have any record of of of asking, you know, the guy that came in for for the the guy and the gal that came in for the marriage license, have you been married twice before? Was that a legitimate divorce that you had before you got here? You know what I'm saying? You don't have any you don't have a stand on principle there. Right. Yeah. I mean, there's some hypocrisy in there. Like, I or or or intentional blindness or grandstanding.

Yeah. Here's the deal. I'm not I'm I'm not pointing at her and saying that that she's in the wrong here. Like, I have no idea what she's got going. I have no idea what it's like to be her. That's that's a lot of experience. Right? All I know is the reaction of people that are getting on 15 soap boxes and going, well, here's the deal and blah blah blah blah blah. Like, and but you're the same of, like, we're the same folks that, like, it's a big ticket sin that's not you. Right? But like, if she just if she just stood up and did the same thing for Johnny remarried because he got a illegitimate biblical divorce ten years ago and we're like, yeah, just let that one slide. Not a big deal. No reason to quit. Keep your job. It's not that. Because it looks kinda like a sham marriage. You know what I'm saying? You don't you don't have the same problem. And so it seems very odd to me that we're willing to to fire up the engines and go all nutty when one thing goes down, and we completely ignore the rest of God's word on the rest of it. So here's here's the thing. There I actually saw an argument similar to that, and it was basically, if this isn't a bit like, where was your outrage when so and so was acting this way? Where is your outrage when all these different people act this way? And and the truth is is that, like, it's it's not relevant. That's that's actually not a that's not a valid argument. It's just a why aren't you acting one way or the other like a person? You you know I'm saying? Like like, it was it was supposed to

it was supposed to draw on line that if the if you were not outraged here, then then we we don't understand it, like, where you're coming from. And, like, people's reaction is not a basis of whether things are right or wrong or not or good or bad or not. I here's here's what I think is and I I was I was I was actually irritated for a couple days. I'm like, this is a this is a distraction. This is an unnecessary distraction on something that that we a conversation we keep having in public that is not that doesn't move the needle publicly. Shoot. Someone told me they were counting how many times I said move the needle. Apparently, I use it a lot. So

so but but here's here's the thing, is I think we should have a concern legitimately and not even necessarily as a Christian, but as as a person who has to live under the laws of this country that she is in prison. That is a legitimate concern. It took me two days to be like, what what is this? And, like, there there we're we have the wrong distraction. The distraction is it says, well, the Supreme Court doesn't make law. Agreed. However, they interpret law. They say whether laws are good or bad or not or judg constitutional or not, and it has an influence on our laws. You don't like the laws? Your your legislation needs to pass different laws. That's the truth. Okay? So, like, we you're gonna get a big tussle like, well, we just disagree with Supreme Court. That ship has sailed, man. It's it's sailed. Create different laws and have them start over. But but the problem is is that she was basically held in contempt of court. She is in prison because she would not do her job. You can't put anybody like, that the fact that someone is in prison because they didn't do their job is outrageous.

And why can't they fire her? Or they can or won't? Because she's elected. So here's here's the problem. Kentucky needs to solve this issue. If they don't if you don't like they need to impeach her. If she's not doing the work and they want her impeached, they should impeach her. That's the method of which you get rid of someone that you can't fire. If she refuses to quit, which I very well could, I could go get a job at the Casey's and act like a complete jacking apes and not do anything. And they'll say, you should quit. It's like, don't wanna quit. I wanna soak up the money. I wanna keep receiving my free doughnut every Thursday. And let's say and the only recourse is they need to fire me. Now in the state of Kentucky, you can't just fire her. She's an elected official. They have to impeach her. No one has started impeachment proceedings. You know who should be upset about that? The people of Kentucky if they care. If the people of Kentucky don't care or if they're not willing to impeach her, she's going to continue doing her job. Like, that is the right reaction to her. The fact that you could go into a court and the court could say, you need to issue these licenses. Because the truth is is that, like, it is not illegal not to issue the licenses. It just means she's a bad employee. Right. Right? Yeah. It's it's it's not legal. So so, like, that would be the same things if you saw a cop. And I get this is not completely apples to apples. Right? But, like, the cop can write jaywalking tickets. If he sees someone that's jaywalking, he doesn't write the ticket, and they say, look, you write the ticket or we're gonna put you in jail. No. We're going to fire you. Right? The right recourse is to take whatever actions that says you're not doing your handling your responsibilities. We need to remove your responsibilities from you. You're not you're not doing them right. And so the fact that she is in prison is something that outright regardless of whether you're a Christian or not, this is American justice problem, that someone is in jail for not doing their work. And and the reason she's in jail is because of the issue and that and that that it's a matter of religious conscience and that they're making a stand that says we won't tolerate this type of behavior. But the truth is the right reaction to that not tolerating that, which I think you have legal ways to do this, is to impeach her.

That that's the right reaction if you don't like it. Putting her in jail, though, is an American justice problem. It's not a Christian problem. It's an American justice problem. I think it is otherwise caused, though, because of the the the loadedness of saying, I'm gonna obey what God wants, not what man wants. And there's an impact to that. And Dan's right. And frankly, she was handling it to like, I don't think you can protest for the most part how she's handled it. Right. She says, okay. I'll go to jail. Okay. She and I mean, she's weak. She has little bit of a show involved, which happens when you end up in prison. But, like, I mean, you're gonna have just you're gonna have to take it like a Christian here and shut up and deal with your time. If that's what you're gonna do, you're gonna have to deal with it. And I think Dan's right about that. But but I think I was so irritated how the conversation Christians were having about that that you can miss that there's actually a legitimate American legal system issue here that you can end up in jail for not doing your job. And and it's it is not your it is your right. It it could be you could make the case that, like, because of the ruling in the Supreme Court is that states cannot reject

issuing these license. But as a person, it is not a it's not a criminal offense for me not to do my job. It is not a criminal offense for me for me not to adhere to something that says you can't discriminate against these people in this in this way. Well, she get tempted to court because she didn't show up for a court date? No. She couldn't get tempted to court because he told her you need to sign the license, and she refused. Again, didn't do your work. And it it it's they're gonna say you say, we she she's not in she's in jail because she was in contempt of court, but she was in contempt of court because she didn't do what the judge told her to do, which was to do her job. And that's, again, you go to the cop and you say, you will write this jaywalking ticket or I will put you in prison. That's not how we do things. It's not how our justice system works. It's not set up that way. I'm assuming the president's in there with her because he's done the same thing with other laws. Correct. Irrelevant. Right? But but it's it's it's Yeah. It's irrelevant. It's like we are messed up. Yeah. We we have what he said and what's he he wouldn't send his lawyer to defend the law. Like, there's the people pick and choose just like the cop actually has a right to say, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna write the Jaywalking ticket. I'm I'm gonna choose not to. It's part of his leverage in his job. Okay? The truth is is that she didn't commit a crime. She's just a poor employee. And so you need to find the means to remove her if that is the deal. It is telling

that there are other clerks in Kentucky that are not doing this. The legislature has not moved to impeach her. And frankly, it would be interesting to see what would happen if you put it to a vote in the state of Kentucky, which they already did because she was elected as a person, like, in an environment which Kentucky banned same sex marriage. Yeah. All of this, for me, is irrelevant as to whether it's biblically supported or not. It's the it's a question of American justice that you need to be careful that we we don't miss with playing within the realms of our justice system. Because frankly, the god question's already answered for me. It's it's it's not as relevant here because to what Bouva was saying, I'm not sure that I care one way or the other. I don't think it's moving the needle or her protest is helping. Moving the needle. I don't think dang. I need a bell. I I don't think it's doing a needle. I don't think it's doing anything. Literally, I'll just kinda push it a few inches. Clearly.

I I just I I don't think it's accomplishing anything, and I don't think it's in the full context of God's story with the way that we're handling that conversation. I I think she should have just resigned. Whatever. There's probably a place for Christian protest. I I and this this is one of those areas which I'm like, I I don't know the right I think there is. I just don't know the right answer to that question yet for me personally. I feel like there is a place of which there is a no more and which I have to say, which you do have broad conversations.

If I think about to to how Paul writes the New Testament, it's not that he never in engaged the empire, but he tend to do it to Christians on how they react to that empire. I just you didn't see the early church trying to move things politically using the political means that were available to them. And even I've seen Daniel turn around, like, in in the lines that in his protest. But you notice, he didn't protest on everybody else's behalf. He protested on his own behalf. You know? And so so, like, it wasn't he was saying, I I fight for Israel. I refuse. You know, like, he he just refused to go. He got himself in trouble personally for the personal thing, and he ended up in a con there was consequences to that. And he said, be what it may, and Jesus shows up in the in the the brick house. Okay. You know, so so, like, I I I'm willing to learn from people who I think are very passionate about this that I may be underdoing it in some ways on how you engage things broadly, because I think there are biblical examples of which we can influence. I don't think they're near as apples to apples as I've seen people make them sound. But I I think there are ways you have to engage that that I'm generally hesitant to, and that could be a cowardice in my mind. I don't know. I'm willing to learn from that. I'm still open. Most of those examples have to do with you being separated or pit against

God, not you on the behalf of someone else. No. Yeah. I would agree with that, generally speaking. Okay. So anyway, we shoot. We need we're running up on a hard break here. Thanks for listening to Life From The Path. If you wanna listen, we're gonna continue parts of this conversation after the break on the podcast. You go to lifefromthepath.org. You can sign up for the podcast. We're on iTunes.

Oh, yeah. I don't know. All places with quasi legitimate podcasts can be found. We're on it. Yeah. Big thanks again to Bob Eisenhower with the Eisenhower team. Appreciate you hanging out with us. Be faithful in the means. Seriously, even in things like this, be faithful in the means, the things that you can control, the things that God has put in you to control, and God will handle the ends and take care of the rest. If you're on the podcast, we'll see you in just a minute. If not, we'll see you next week. Thanks for listening to the live from the path on the truth network ninety nine point three FM. What? Really gonna move the needle on this situation. What? Dang it. You guys need to help me out here. Why? I don't think there's anything wrong with that. What? Do you want a bleep button or something? No. That would make it seem worse. Okay. That'd be scary. We really need to bleep on this thing. That might come out wrong. We haven't been bleeped on this at all. So

so so hold on. Mike Mike says he issued a license anyway. You still there, Mike? Yeah. You'd sign it. You don't care. I don't I I just I I don't I don't I I don't I I see the moot point. I do it. As far as as far as the the the kingdom of God issue, like, I I I I find it a moot point. I I literally can't find one job of which I can I can participate in where I am not inadvertently participating in someone's ability to sin? Like, I just I ain't gonna stop it.

So you have no responsibility at all. Well, see, now this is where the question got me caught up because I thought about it after I decided that was my take on it. And I thought, well, crap. What if I mean, what if my own kids is heading down that one that way? I'll jump in there. You know what saying? I'll be like, hey, but we're you guys, you can't do this. You can't do this thing. Here's why. Blah blah blah. And I really love my kids. So I thought, crap. Do I not love other people that I'm not willing to step in and blah blah blah blah blah blah? And then I thought, well, I'm in quite the the the the quandary. I'm not really sure. Hey, man. I hadn't had that question about my stance until now. Well, so now you're gonna think about it. I think I'm still solidly where I started. I just can't think of why the difference is to me. I'm sure there's a logical difference. I just I I don't know what it Is there a fact do you have to take into consideration I I even hesitated on this question. Do you have to take into consideration

the public perception of the job? Like, the the the type of influence that you have in that area. Because here's the thing. I actually don't think you're ever actually going to use that your position to influence anybody to love Jesus. No. Any differently than you would if you sold oranges on the sack. You might have gotten elected because of that. Like, if you ran on that, that if it's elected, know, that's that's probably the truth. Yeah. But and maybe they expect certain amount of behavior for you, and maybe that's where you're standing. And and and maybe if you meld all that together, maybe I don't have kind of the issue. Right? Like, if you if if your platform was when you ran for that job, look, I love Jesus. And I we're gonna do things the way God would do them out of this office. And they say, look, we want you to do this. She goes, that's not what I ran on. That wasn't the integrity of which I promised. And, cart me away. So that's actually That's a different conversation for me. And and here's the deal. That's actually what I get if she doesn't resign. And and the truth is you have to deal with her as the as you elected her into office, and you have to deal with her. The people have to do that. The legislature has to do that. People have to do that. And and that's where you've seen a lot of conversations about,

states' rights versus federal rights is if the the can Kentucky what is is Kentucky a commonwealth? No. It's Virginia. So con the state of Kentucky Pennsylvania also. Okay. So okay. The two two Commonwealths. So the the state of Kentucky, though, did ban this. They did elect her either potentially in that platform or not. And now the environment around her has changed. What responsibility does she have to get out of the office because her environment has changed when the people have elected her to do this? The people then have to rectify that problem. That is the means of which that can be rectified as the legislature impeaches her or the people, I don't know, call a vote or something. Call a referendum and deal with it. And the problem is is to circumvent the right way to handle that, the voice of the people in that area, they've taken it to the judicial judicial system,

which is then, from at least my perspective and and here's the deal. I I'm I'm willing to be informed that I'm misunderstanding this wrong. And if you could do it, just shoot me an email info life from the path dot org. I'd I'm I'm willing to hear that I'm thinking of this wrong. But it's it it seems to me that they've they've overstepped to the extent that you can hold someone in contempt of court for not doing the work, regardless of what it what what backs the reason she's not doing her work, regardless of what that is, would it be a religious conviction or whatever. I I mean, I don't care what the guy is. If she's he or she is, if they're not doing their work, I feel like you can't put them in jail for that. No. That sounds legit. But and actually, I think this has been a problem. This has been an issue with this particular issue throughout the country. Like like, we're we're in Iowa.

And I mean, we've been calling for a vote on this thing for years, and we still don't have it. You know I'm saying? Like, if, like, let let the public decide if this is the state, it's what the state wants to do, and we can't we can't seem to get it. And and I think the thing is is that based upon the court ruling, they would say, well, it it's an irrelevant unless you otherwise change the constitution. Right. And and and here's the if that's what you think is gonna make the difference, then at least reasonably from a judicial perspective, fight for that. But, like, I I don't understand. I think we're getting lost in, in some of the minor points of this thing, having the same discussion in a different medium that we haven't had successfully for the last thirty years. And and I think I think what people are looking for and where we need to be careful is you find a a different bonfire to attend so that you can hold court there about something that wasn't that you weren't able to convince anybody over in your last bonfire. So whatever it is that you is not working. Here's the deal. Westboro Baptist is not converting anybody.

They do the same crap everywhere. They do the same thing, and they just wait for, hey. Here's a big event. Here's a concert. Here's a whatever. We'll show up, and we'll do this thing. And it never does anything. I disagree. They they probably convert people against them more than anything else. They push people further away. Okay. So they're not doing what they hope to do. Yeah. They move the needle in the wrong direction. Yeah. Okay. So let's let's say that that's the case. And so I think all we're doing in some instances is you're continuing the same conversation that has not had an impact, in every other place that you've talked about, and you look for another bonfire to attend or another event that's going on, and you're gonna hold a rally there, and you're gonna talk about these things here, and you're gonna get a thousand people there that already agreed with you to agree with you louder with another 999 people around you, and then we're gonna be happy with our progress. And we're just there's just a little bit of blindness there. And

and so the and so here's back to my initial question then. Is 8AM tomorrow to pull it back from influencing her circumstance and blow it up to the broad concept that you have people that are willfully walking in a path that that Jesus says this is not for you, and this is not of me. What does 8AM look like in this circumstance? And and and I suppose rightfully in all circumstances, what is your what is your Tuesday morning look like? I think one of the things you'd have to ask for yourself is is is this gonna be a hill to die on? Is this something that you really need to take your stand in the dirt and say this is of such a level of priority that, yeah, I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to plant my flag here and say, hey. This is it. This is no further than this. And,

for me, I I have a very small list of things that are absolutely essential, and and those are ones that I'm gonna stand up and and, die on. And and, basically, that hill is just Jesus and whatever is attached to that. But for other people, that might be much more expansive than just Jesus. It might be a lot of the peripheral things surrounding Jesus. Maybe this is something that's really big. And, you know, there's even biblical example of a guy defending a field against the Philistines, and it's like a field of lentils, and it's the most worthless crop you can imagine. And the guy's willing to take up a spear against an entire army because it's God's field. And the Bible describes it in in very venerable tones because of the guy because of the fact that the guy is doing this simply to honor God even though in all practical purposes, it's just a field with lentils. Right.

So that's kinda what you gotta look at is is this something that is going to be holy ground for you, And is this something that that to you is really gonna honor God? And if not, get out of the way. If it is, then you need to stake your claim there. I I've always thought that as passionate as we are with the protests,

with with all the rallies, with all the things we do, if we just simply the church simply just made disciples, it fixes all of that. It just, you know, it just hap it just people who are disciples and followers of Jesus aren't getting married

to the same gender. It's it's in they won't. They're not doing that. They're also not attending rallies. Mike's Mike says, disciples of Jesus don't attend rallies. That's a tweet. I'm saying the ills of society that we like to protest won't happen if we're making disciples, and therefore we don't need so let's put our passion there. Let's put our energy there, and that that solves

everything. I feel like we're in the same position that the Jewish folks in Jesus' day were in. Like, we're expecting a revolution. We wanna we wanna change it. We wanna we wanted to bit this to be this. Like, in our and we think Jesus is gonna do this and God will do this and and like, he'll do what he does. Right? Like, I think I thought of it that way, Mike. I think that's actually a pretty interesting thought that said that that we are making the same mistake that we are making the same mistake of presuming

what what Jesus will do in this circumstance. Like, obviously, because we care about this thing, Christ will rectify it in the way that we expect. That is the that is the same basic misunderstanding that led first century Judaism to to ignore Christ. Yeah. I I and and maybe that's an oversimplification, but I mean, seriously, like like like, if you if you're asking what the dude does tomorrow at 9AM, I know what I can do. I can just be

simply a follower of Christ. That's what I can do. Like, I can't I can't do all the things, the big revolution changes. Like, I God does those things. I just do what I'm supposed to do. And, like, I suppose if God's got me handling the flag and and and knocking dudes out and getting on top of the hill and rallying people, then that's what I will do. Oh, I'm so there. Yeah. But, you know, I I just I I feel like we're we're presuming upon the great nation of America. Like, it's could be redeemed and maybe god's sitting there watching look say, I I sorry, son. You're you're on the ship, and that ship is going down. And it's gonna go down. And it's gonna. And I love you. I'm sorry you're on the ship. I'll see you in a little bit. Tomorrow

morning when you wake up, build your relationship with God and build your relationship with the people around you. That's what you can do. Those are the kind of things that you can control. Spend more time trying to know who God is and know his heart, and then spend more time trying to understand the people around you and loving on them. Whether that's building relationships with them, I don't care what that is. That's what you're called to do. And I guess I guarantee you, if you spend more of your time building relationships with the people around you and they're not following Christ, you have given yourself another opportunity to be around them and just live like Christ wants you to. And that's one of the most powerful things you can do to win someone over to the kingdom of God, is just live your life the way that he's called you to do so and show them how weird it is to see someone who's honestly following Christ. And then, honestly, I've not seen it yet where someone hasn't just gone at least, hey, Why do you do that stuff? It opens up an opportunity for you to talk to them. I think for me, the these stories seemed like they were coming out about the same time as there were stories about refugees

from Syria who were trying to get into Europe and and dying in the process. And for me, one of them actually compelled me to want to do something about it. The other one, this story about a clerk, I didn't feel so much compel so much compulsion for. I'm looking at these folks who are who are homeless and who are hungry, and I'm reminded of Jesus saying, hey. I was hungry, and I was homeless, and you fed me, and you clothed me, and you sheltered me. And and it's like, okay. This seems very reminiscent of what Jesus has called me to do. Responding to this clerk, and for whatever reason she's doing her thing, I don't remember that in terms of what Jesus has compelled me to get involved in. So

for me, moving the needle, I I'm moving it more towards, hey. How do I help the homeless? How do I help, those who are hungry? And and some of the tangible effects of his kingdom being made manifest. And maybe that's the maybe that's the big maybe that's the big thing for me is is, like, we we've got a lot of there's got a lot of conversation about whoever whoever we perceive to be the adversary in this thing. Like, whoever's on the other side of the discussion that Christians believe that they're having or who they're talking to or talking at.

And the truth is is this element of of of surprise that they're like, well, look at their hypocrisy. They allowed this, this mayor in San Francisco acted this way, and this and this legislator acted this way. And I'm like, where is the surprise? Like, what what where is this coming from that you're that that people are acting this way? Where is the surprise coming from that says, here's what god wants. People don't want that. Like, you

would say that if you put it on a quiz and said, people that love God will want things that God wants. People that don't love God will tend to want things that they want over what God wants. Please check yes if you're surprised. And no one would check yes. But but for some reason, once we see a shiny thing in the air that that people can talk about, we we suddenly lose all that perspective of understanding that people that don't love Jesus act like people that don't love Jesus. And and and then we put on a show about how surprised we are and how they're hypocritical and how that they're they don't understand the rule of of nature's god. Well, of course, they don't. Of course, they don't. I I don't get it. And and and and the the only reason to blow hard and get excited about that type of thing is to grant a rally of people that wouldn't have checked yes in the box anyway.

And again, we're we're being maybe this is the thing, is we're being far too impressed with ourselves. Yeah. We're impressed with our own indignation. Look at how they violate God's laws. Do you agree that they're violating? I do. Aren't we very look at we've we've got together in a group, and we're we're indignant about it. And and and the more people that we have that are indignant about it, the better we feel that we're really making some progress. And that guy was indignant in his armchair. I weep I weep for the circumstance of which people in our in our country or anywhere say, god has this, I choose this, and I do it willfully. I wait for that in my own life when that happens. And the thing is is I don't ever look at my life, my own personal existence,

and go and be satisfied at my own dig indignation and say, boy, you just really screwed up there, and you should be happy that I've pointed that out because I certainly know better. And I don't understand the sense of pride that comes with it and the sense of accomplishment because we got a group of people that agreed. And the sense, and the false sense of security that says, we will fix the means, the things that go on in this world through the means of the world. If only we vote the right people in, if only we hold the right if we only can control the media. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Right. Come on. Like, we're thinking foolishly. We're thinking like dumb people instead of wise Christ followers.

We're we're not being we're not being shrewd as snakes. We're the dove selling Jesus door to door and acting surprised when people don't want it. And and so, like, there's there's parts of me that's hesitant that says I feel like I'm missing something because there are people that love Jesus that that really get fired up about this stuff and are doing things that I that they feel like progress something. And I I'm there's there's part of me that says, how can do not be so arrogant to think that you've got this thing figured out. But I just I cannot figure out what it is that we think we're doing because our victories are measured in the in the on a man's scale.

How many people showed up to the rally? What let's say she gets out, and let's say she gets back at her job and no one harasses her, and she doesn't sign this thing, and the guy who's gay can't get married in Kentucky, and he goes and gets married in Virginia. Woo hoo. Like, I mean, what did you do? What did you we kept that guy in that area? Okay. I mean, if our if our job is to put up fences, and I I I'm not I'm not voting for biblical anarchy either. Like, I feel like that doesn't work, that we have a an obligation to speak into a culture and say, look, this isn't wrong. Help let me help you understand where this is coming from. And you'll understand that because you'll understand Jesus. And those two things together are powerful because they the the second thing's powerful because it comes from Christ. That's why. But but if it doesn't if I can't get you to know Jesus, the fact that that it's his law or his guidance for your life becomes completely irrelevant to you. And we're missing that part of the conversation. And so there's part of me that says, like, am I okay with with anarchy? We we don't say anything. And no. Because I think I can't love someone and not say anything. I just don't know the means through which we are trying to accomplish it or measure our man's level successes.

And and when we get a bunch of people at the rally and when we get a bunch of new positive news coverage and we can get someone to make a movie about it, we can feel like we've accomplished a victory because we got on the same playing field with the guys that don't love Jesus and felt that we made a difference for a few minutes. And it's a too short term of a perspective and is fighting the wrong battle. And and that's where I feel like I'm afraid we get caught up in. But then the thing is is is is and this goes to the thing that I was warning about when I started the show today, which was I look on that and say, I think we're not doing that right, and then I don't know that my 8AM does anything. Did am I involved in anything where it says, what do we do? We love a we love a couple who who seems to be struggling with or enjoying it and not thinking that they should be struggling with it. Do I know any of those people? Am I dining? Am I am I does my life intersect with tax collectors and sinners? Because the the reason the way that Jesus influences that is he makes sure he's part of them. And and and and how are we I'm not avoiding anybody, but I also I don't I'm not though that I've spent any additional time trying to make sure that my life is spread out in that way. And maybe I say, well, I just don't run into those people. Well, here's the deal. A a a Christian guy who's trying to be faithful to his family and faithless to his church is probably not gonna come across groups of people that are sinning and and and putting their group as the head of the group is that we sin in this way. Like, you're probably not gonna run into that. And so we may have to be more intentional with it. Like, as much as I like to say, we just need to live our lives in our normal way, and God will put people on our path. And I think that in generally speaking, he will. But sometimes our path is is basically the lack of blindness, is being able to see and seeing that there are things that go on somewhere and that there's darkness in there, and we don't want anything more but to say recognize ourselves as bearers of light and say, I think light needs to be in there. Maybe I'll walk over there. That maybe that is God putting people on our path as recognizing ourselves as light through which the holy spirit shines and recognizing darkness and saying, boy, I can't wait to go. You know who you know who rocks that? Bobby. Bobby Bobby Deborah rocks that. Yeah. There's darkness. I'm going. I'm heading over. There's a guy. He might be hungry. I'm heading over. You know what I'm saying? Like, there's there's a bit of that impulsiveness that says, say, well, I hope god god put someone in our path. For for Bobby, it means anybody within that he can see with his eyes wherever he happens to be. Ours is, well, maybe they'll hire them at work when we're close to me next to my desk, and maybe we'll randomly have a conversation about my family, and then I could bring this thing up. You know what I'm saying? Like, who who who when we say God putting people in our That path was dead on. Yeah. That's what we mean. We mean God, like, make it so obvious that an idiot like myself

doesn't have to take any risks because they're next to me and I can feel it out for a while, and then I can break it up. And, like, that's what we mean when we say God put someone on our path as opposed to God says, you're light. There's darkness. Make it happen. And I and I and I feel like there's there's just part of that whole conversation that intertwines in this thought process of how we actually change things is what we wanna do is gather a bunch of lights and hope people are attracted to it and that they jump on board as opposed to saying, we're light. We look for darkness and then head in. And I I and I'm not sure that how we handle big things reflects that even even micro process. And and maybe I grow from that in my life where I say, need to wake up in the morning and say, god, remind me who I am in light of who you are and help me help point me to darkness that they that they may have light. And maybe that's my Tuesday morning. And and you know what? Here, this pulls me back to a question that I was thinking about when I was driving in today. Actually, this is this is hit me this week, and it has to do with that very type of conversation, which is what's okay. Let's say, holy spirit guides. And I say there's darkness, and I go, and now what?

How do I talk to people about Jesus? And here's here's what I realized is that I don't know Jesus well enough. And this this is the thing I was struggling with, whether it was pope style or something else, is my right reaction to telling this thinking about I wanna go visit someone in the hospital. Was thinking, alright, you know, what what might they ask? What might they what might be interesting things to talk to them about? How can I how can I help them point them to Christ in the circumstance that they're in? And I realized that my thought process went to, here's what I know functionally.

Here's how Jesus works. Here's how things happen. Here's the outcome of things that Jesus has done. Here's how I put the pieces together, and I can explain to you this story. And it means more to me than that, but I think that's that's what was on top of my head. And then I realized that I was kind of it was kind of making a game plan where things might go, and I thought, you know, let's say I knew I don't know. Who's who seems like a jovial guy? Boova. Okay. Let's say I knew Boova. This is a good example, Boova. I like this. So I I meet a guy. Like, when was the last time that I met somebody? And they were a new person that I engaged with. Hi. How you doing? My name's Ben, blah blah blah. And and I was talking to him, and there was nothing that I had more in my mind than, like, boy,

I'd like to introduce them to Boofah. Like, he's such a he's such a cool guy, and he knows he he's got good stories, and, like, he's a he's he loves people, and and, like, their life my life is better for knowing Buva. And I'd like them to get to know get to know Buva, and I and, like, I can't wait for you to meet my friend my friend Buva. I can't wait. And I thought, when was the last time I felt that way about Jesus? When I wasn't trying to introduce someone to Christ because it could save them. I wasn't trying to introduce someone to Christ because, functionally, I know that things are true. I all those are accurate things.

But when was the last time I looked someone in the eye and I saw and I met him for the first time where I've known them for a while, and I was and I got to thinking, boy and I was praying for them. I said, boy, I really wish they could meet Jesus in a nonfunctional way. I just want them to know Jesus because of who he is, and it and it it made me think I'm not I need to remind myself who Jesus is. I want I wanna follow Jesus, and it's just maybe it's my personality, but, like, I think of things in a functional way. And and I feel like if I'm not rightfully thinking of who Christ is on a on a given basis, it's because I'm not, I'm missing a little bit of the forest for the trees here. And although my bible study gets me into I know good things, and I think it's it helps me functionally live my life following Christ. I I understand. I know more of God, but I don't necessarily know God. And I think this goes to the thing we we it sounds so easy. We say, no God, no like, love God, love people. Right? I have to know who they are. If I have to know who Jesus is, if I wanna point people to them. And and and and and I need to be able to I feel like if I rightfully understand Jesus,

this is where we're not forcing conversations. I'm just saying, I I really would I wish you would you would know Jesus. I I I want you to get to know my my brother, my friend Jesus. And and I think if I if if that's lacking in my life, it's because I may be studying the story of Jesus and may not be doing enough to remind myself who Jesus is and, like, the the personality of a god that does these things. And so, like, I the the whole wrap up of this hospital question was I could answer questions. If she asks questions and feel like kinda where stories at and all those things and I could point in the right direction, say, functionally, here's kinda how things work. You do and and it's not that I don't love Jesus, and it's not that I'm not trying to follow him. I just I felt it was the circumstance revealed to me that I might be losing who Jesus is even though that is the answer I would give to everything. It is it is in it is who Jesus is. We follow him. We do the things he does. We love like he loves. All those things I believe, but, like, I might be missing I might be missing elements of that. And so I there was just I thought, how do I how do I do this? I need to re as I read,

maybe I just need to to structure this a little bit better where I'm praying beforehand and said, help me know you better here. Not just not just how you act, but, like, help me know you better. And and then give me give me that thought that says, boy, I don't know who you are, friend, but I really would be cool if you got to like, I'm proud to know Jesus, I want people to know that I know Jesus, and I would love to introduce you to him because of who he is. And, and that I I would say that answer, but I'm not sure that that's in my

in my marrow, and I would like it to be. And so, anyway, that was it's all that kind of stuff just kinda ties together with our hesitance on how we're gonna go accomplish something, how we're gonna do things, how we're gonna how do I how do I how do I how do I who who is it? Who who do we follow? And who loves us? And who is the answer to all these things? And then from that, it matters how and it matters what and it matters when and and all those things. But, like, short of the who, I feel like we're that that's that's our barrier to all these things. And then I look and say, hey, we held a rally. Do they know who do they know the who? Does the guy who we think is on the other end of our conversation, do they know the who, or do they know the what and the when and and probably the why? But they don't know the who, and then what did we what did we do? We we wrote a book. We wrote a book, and we shared a sweet story with somebody. But since they don't know Jesus or didn't have a chance to through there, I just I feel like I'm missing that in my own life at times, and I wonder if that's what's missing in some of those conversations. I think you're right. It seems like the the two issues are kinda connected in the way that you go to rallies and you go and try and change the the culture or the laws. It's almost like we're we're approaching God as just a set of policies and trying to enforce the same sort of set of policies on other people and say, well, as long as we can, you know, form our society based on these policies, then we've got this God thing covered. Yeah. And we're doing the same thing in terms of our lives with Jesus where we basically regaled him to just he's a tool. He's our savior tool, and he's our, you know, spiritual perfector tool. He he does all these things for us, but but we ultimately miss the character, and the person of Jesus. And it's something that can easily be revealed just when you look at the way he interacts with people. And just in those encounters, instead of just kinda looking at, hey, what what is it that God that Jesus did here? Oh, yeah. He healed someone. Okay. Great. No. Look look at the way that he is listening to people. Look at the way that he is treating these women who are being discarded by their society,

and he's educating them. And he's lifting them up and and seeing the value in them, and he and he's listening to them. And and, you know, I mean, some of that is it's hard to to come across when, the stories are just sort of written in in terms of, hey, here's the facts of what happened. But you can still see the character of Christ coming coming out as he's as he's interacting with his beloved and just realizing that it's that same heart and that same character and that same he he looks at people and he just loves them. You know, of course, you're gonna wanna introduce people to someone like this. And it shouldn't take a lot of posturing or anything like this. It's like, hey, if I wanna introduce someone to Buva, it's like, hey, you should meet Buva. And then I just immediately go into talking about what Buva's like. Yeah. And and it's like, hey. You know, whether Buva's happens to be there or not, I and, you know, I can describe Buva to him and tell someone why they would wanna meet him because he's this awesome. Right. I got stories about Buva. Got, you know, I got things that go on. I got interactions that him and I had. I got things about, yeah, he's had a really good positive impact on my life. Yeah. Life is better because of him. And it's not just that he serves this function of making my life better. He just he's a cool guy to hang around with. He you know, people are around him, and and they feel better about themselves because, you know, he's buhba.

Yeah. So I I I don't know. I don't know. It's something that I am has been on my mind this week that I I I need I wanna go back looking looking for Jesus, not just stories about Jesus, but from he has revealed enough that I feel like I have the opportunity to know Jesus better and more.

And that will that will help remind me so that I can look at I was I was thinking about, like, how much easier I I'm invested in how do I tell a story or how do what do I need to help? How can Jesus help them in this specific circumstance as opposed to, boy, no, seriously, you I just if I knew if I knew Tom Cruise, if I knew Tom Cruise, I feel like I would bring that up all the time. I would bring that up all the time. Hey, did you know hey. I know Tom I know Tom Cruise, by the way. You should meet Tom. I have you seen Tom? He's done he did these cool things. Anyway, yeah, I ran into him with this thing, and we met this way. And, like, I I I'm not trying to think we got away from this thought process because it feels like you're degrading Jesus as a copilot, you're wrong in that respect. I I know the king. I met I've met the king. I know him. He's a generous who who oh, what was I watch? Tangled was on. Tangled. You know that movie Tangled with the Rapunzel? The Disney movie? Tangled. One of my favorites. So like there was a it was on the TV on Sunday, and the kids were watching it. And this this king was there, and he was a good king. And the his daughter's returned, and he he had a a neatly trimmed beard, and he seemed to run his kingdom well. And I thought, no one's no one in that kingdom is like, I hate this king. Let's rebel against the king. We don't we don't like how we're being treated. They loved the king. He cared for them, and they was they they celebrate they they lit these lancers, and they sent them up every year on the anniversary of his daughter being kidnapped. And, like, I I I was thinking about all this this whole community of people who this does nothing to bring this kid back. Nothing. Throwing these lanterns in the air to like, functionally,

Mike Foust over here is like, what? We should send somebody out to look. What are you sending the lanterns in the Like, wait. Like, is this supposed to mean anything to me? The air all the lanterns are flying. And I thought, like, it it is something. It is something for the whole community to throw the lanterns in the air and and and to come together in that way and say, we're just doing this together. This doesn't even mean anything. We're throwing lanterns in the air. We're sympathizing with our king. But, like, the whole process of a community that looks and says, we we love our kingdom. We we love to serve this king. He's a good king, and he cares for us. And we will work for him, and we will fight for him. And and we I I would tell anybody I ever met to say, come live in our kingdom because our king is awesome. And I think we just we it just blows this thing out of the water a little We suck at that. I know. And and so but all of it all of it roots though is that, like, we're missing the character. Like, we're we're we got tactics on how we're gonna talk to people about Jesus. You know what? I know Jesus. And the truth is is that, like, maybe I don't have those conversations because I'm not I'm not rooted around the right things. I've rooted around tactics. I've rooted around I can answer when people say, I I don't believe the world is x x years old. It's like, I don't either. I don't care. Like, I I don't have one figure or another as to how old the world are. I wasn't there. Let's talk about other things. Right? I I got answers to things. I'm prepared for the objector as opposed to, hey. I I I something's going on in your life. Or, hey. I just I just happen to run into you. Have you do you know Jesus? I know Jesus. Let me tell you a couple stories. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And and I I without degrading Jesus to being some kind of good time tailgater, he is still I would tell someone about a king that I love to serve. I would tell somebody about about a friend who sacrificed for me and whose story should live on and who just happens to also live on. You know what saying? And so I we just although we've probably gone too far in our understanding of our personal relationship with Christ. We focus too much on him being a king of a kingdom versus him being being our personal savior. He's a savior of a kingdom of which I am part of. So, like, we and we get distracted in that. However, it does not mean he is not a personal

king. He is a king overall, and and and I am part of that all, which means that we have a relationship. And so I I just I feel like I'm I'm missing that a little bit. There's there's a lack of intimacy in how I talk about me and Jesus, and there's a lack of intimacy about how I share Jesus. If we wanna talk about Jesus, I I think Herrick nailed it about a bit like like, he's a political program. Even even the the kingdom thought, which is the right thought, comes with it in a context of people digest it as political programming or the way our our our social things get happening. And all those things are baked into the concept of who the king is. The kingdom gets its identity through who the king is. And so anyway anyway, I I don't know. That that means something for me. I don't know exactly what it means or how I'm

that shifts. I feel like Holy Spirit does work like that because I feel like he's put me here. But it's something that I think ties into that whole conversation, whereas I don't know tangibly that I could point out someone and say, you should stop protesting or you should stop doing x, y, and z. But my my first reaction is is that is they're not they don't know Jesus. They don't know they don't know Jesus. So the things you're saying don't matter, and the things you're doing don't matter. And the only people that care are people who already know Jesus, but again, distracted from knowing Jesus more deeper because we're fighting for something else that isn't knowing Jesus. And I think those things will outwardly happen. And that could be naive of me, but that's where I'm at. I don't know why I love this metaphor. But for some reason, I keep thinking of, like, if you can if you can keep your life in a perspective that you own a bakery in a in a in a land. And for some reason, the king stops by your shop every morning. Right? Like, the weight of him being the king is still completely on your mind. And that but but like he stops by just to see how you're doing and and and and comes down to visit. And and you make special rolls because the king's gonna be there and you do it every day. And people come in and say, hey, why do you have all these rolls? Why do you act this way? And you say, because the king stops by. He

comes and visits me. And I do this because I know the king's gonna be here and it's good. You know what I'm saying? Like like it's odd to know to like have the have the have the reverence to know that he's still the king, but to know that he will stop by your shop. And and then you and you will do this because and you will produce these roles because the king is gonna come by. And and and and you know the king likes that. And the king says, the joy is in those rolls. Make them. And other people will go, what are these rolls about? And you say, the king likes them. And and and so I make them. And then you say and you say, try one. The king loves them. He says they're great. You give them a shot. You should try this roll. But I don't like these kind of roles. I'm sorry. It's the only kind of roles we make. Because the king likes them. And he says they're good. I I think and I was thinking about this. I I was having Herrick listen to a listen to a sermon that I listened to a couple weeks ago to kind of vet it, Mike. This and it it was for you. It was for you. Something you talked about is like, I I I you have trouble kinda latching on to this thought of king and kingdom Yeah. And having it be tangible in your life. And there was something about this sermon I thought, well, maybe this bridge is a bit of that gap, I was having Herrick vet it for me to see whether he thinks it would be helpful for you or not. But, like, it's that kind of thing. I think we need to digest the king differently. Like, we come from the screw King George. We're setting up our own place, and, like, that undergirds a lot of the stuff we talk We're still doing it. 200

later. Screw him. We're we're still fighting with the king somewhere. Like, we don't want tyranny. We don't want this and that. We're always we're afraid of a higher power because we're afraid of a corrupt higher power. And the truth is we know a good one, but we're baking into that the slight mistrust of can he just rule the whole kingdom and is it good? Yeah. And and is it okay? Like, he when he says the roles are good, we don't need any other roles. This is the roles we serve. They're good. And he wants everyone to have them enjoy them. And he's coming by for some, and we do the good things because the king is good. And and maybe we need to be reminded of the king, the Disney king, of the guy you're like, people live to serve this man. And that's Jesus. Because he's good. And and no one in the king is fighting about it, and no one is upset, and no one says, boy, wish we we should replace the king. You know who did that? Satan did that. He was wrong. He got kicked out. Then he's he's the only guy that is absolutely cannot join the kingdom anymore. He's done. Yeah. And so I I don't know. Maybe it's regaining maybe it's regaining to know the king, and maybe that's part of his character that I miss. Right? Like, not not only is it this is who Jesus is, but, like, the fact that he's a king, I mean, amps it up. He's not just a good time for he's a king of stuff. It's funny. Like, I I I don't know how many of guys have this experience at your job. Right? But like, you ever had a boss that you really like, you really respected him. And like, he didn't come around and roast you a whole lot, but he showed up to see what you were doing. He say, how's it going? You go, it's going good. And he goes he smiles and goes, okay.

See you. You need anything? Let me know. Right? And, like, there's there's way more than just happened in that interchange than what than what what meets the eye. Right. Right? Like, showed up, they gave confidence in you, showed that they cared about you, showed that you were loved, said, hey, if you need anything, you can count on me. I got other stuff to do. I'm gonna go. Right? And like like that interaction is worth way more than what it looks like to an outside an outside viewer. Right? Like and like, I I think you're right. I miss that interaction with with Christ. Right? Like, I still want it to be formulaic because then I can't screw it up, you know? But tomorrow morning, the king's gonna show back up and say, the roles were a little off. Let's talk about let's talk about what happened. He goes, I think you could produce good rules, but we're just gonna have to tweak a couple of things. I'll be back tomorrow and see what happened.

I don't know. I like, I for some reason, the Bible metaphors always get lost on me, but I have to put them in some kind of ridiculous scenario where I run a bakery for Jesus to make sense to me. So No. I'm gonna let that go. So

okay. I don't know. So some stuff that you want this week. Some stuff to think about how we engage people based upon how we engage Jesus. And and if if if we're if we're saying, hey, I struggle on introducing the people to Jesus. The only thing I can reasonably come to is because we don't know Jesus well enough. Because he is a compelling character. Yeah. Like, who if it was if seriously, if Tom Tom Cruise was staying at your place, you would mention that to everybody. Yes. And so the thing isn't to I try to get discounts everywhere. The thing is not to arbitrarily say, you need to I need to talk to five people about Tom Cruise today. Right. You know what? The thing is is like, you perhaps you don't understand your circumstance. Tom Cruise is in your bedroom. You you're sleeping on the couch. Right. You moved you and your wife stayed somewhere else. You gave Tom the bed. Otherwise, that would be double creepy. So so you know what I'm saying? Is is is that like

it's not that we need to to try to prod you and burn you and tell you you need to tell the story more. You don't understand the story right. If you're not telling the story, it's you you have to be missing the story. See, now that sounds like good news. You know what I'm saying? All that sounds like good news. What you're currently inviting people to? Formulas. Not good news. And and People hate formulas. That's the right understanding of good news too. It's like, if you have good news, you don't you don't have to tell other people to tell it. You think I got new good news, and I wanna tell everybody. I heard something. Here's the deal. King's coming by the bakery. That's good news. Yeah. Like, if you were to find that out and someone said, say, you know, Phil, you really should tell people that the king's coming by the bakery. Yeah. But I don't know. I mean, how they will receive it. The king's coming by. Good news goes viral on its own merits. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And so so it maybe maybe the crux of our issue is we seem to not understand what good news is. We don't understand what it looks like, and if we have to be prodded to tell other people about Jesus, I feel like we don't know Jesus right, which is is kind of with the way I was thinking through that discussion, I feel like I need reminded. If the first line of your good news is, hey. You're in really bad shape, you sinner, that doesn't sound like good news. This isn't something that's gonna go viral.

Yeah. Right. You've put a roll on top of a bat, and then you're hitting me with this bat roll. That's not good news. I suppose the thing is is that the more that like, if you're telling the good news of Jesus, as part of that good news, it will shake out where you will you will realize through holy spirit conviction, you're like, you know what? I am rough. But the truth is, the good news never stops. Yeah. I am rough. By the way, oh, yeah. I already know Jesus. That's the thing is you'll go, you know what? I think my roles need a new recipe. Alright. The key's gonna help me straighten out this thing. There was a I read it. I was reading a book this week, and it was a it was a conversation. I don't use this metaphor for years just for heads up. Oh, thank I really love it. It was a conversation with there was like a, a it was a psychologist of some kind or a psych yeah. Psychologist of some kind,

a philosophical psychologist, something something like that. Guy with a philosophy. Anyway, the guy goes he was in an interview at a college, and and one of the kids stands up, he says, can you tell me what was the what were some of the main issues with your belief structure? Because the guy had kinda changed. And he said, the long and short of it was it was wrong. And I thought, yeah. Like, there's a guy that can embrace himself correctly. Yeah. He said, you know, like, he's we we got, like, hitting nuances and saying, well, you know, it's, you know, I had a little bit of tweaking. Here he goes, like, like, the problem with it was that it was incorrect. And and I the the truth is is that, like, that's not really bad news if you realize that, if you know what the good news is, if you know what the right news is. And and so the thing is is we're trying to make sure that people understand bad before they get the good, like, as if they won't digest the good correctly. But the truth is good news is good news, and then even as the bad things will show up in your life, they are then colored by the fact that you already know good news. Mhmm. It's like saying, hey. Here's a free car, and they say, by the way, the the brakes are out in your other vehicle, and you're like, oh, shoot. Oh, I have a I have another car. This is good. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I don't I don't know. I had other stuff on the dock, and I think we better let it go, though.

Do you mind did anybody else have anything pressing? No. Can wait till next week. Okay. Alright. Let's let's do that then. I'm a leave you with a little bit hey. By the way, if I have not I I know I say this here once, but I wanna remind you because he's solid. This is Doldomite by Scott Henderson. He provides some of the, some the sweet background to his hair on Life From The Path. Duty free. Go dig dig on that. I I Spotify that beast, but I I also purchased it legitimately because I dig it on it. I can listen to it elsewhere. Anyway, you've been listening to Life From The Path. Thanks for hanging out with us. So here on the podcast, I'm interested in your thoughts, guys. Like, you've got any something about this conversation resonates with you, maybe we got it wrong. Maybe protesting is solid, and we should know that. I don't think so, but I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. I'm I'm interested in whether, I misunderstand the, the justice argument here. That's where I'm sitting. But if I get that wrong and there's something good I can read, just send it to me, I'll take a read through it because I'd like to here's what I don't want. I don't wanna go spouting off like like we know the I know the law of the land. If I don't know it. Right? I'd like to I'd like to change my ways here. You know, you could skip that whole conversation and just end up on the good news conversation. I feel like that was way more fruitful. Sorry. Okay. That's fair enough. Do you know the good news?

Heck yeah. Yeah. But I don't know. Maybe and maybe you can join us in kinda thinking through, are we understanding good news correctly? And if we're not willfully talking to people like Jesus, maybe we maybe we don't know him well enough. And so, let's I'm starting that journey afresh. I wanna know Jesus. So, thanks for hanging out with us on Life in the Past. Use an email info at Life in the Path dot org. Go to lifeinthepath.org for clips of the show. Sign up for the podcast. I know all that. We still owe you a buffet night. We're working on that. We're gonna set up a date and, get that thing straightened out. We'll put that on the Twitter. Thanks so much for hanging out with us. Be faithful in these. Let God take care of the ends. You've been listening to live from the pack.