Live from the Pathway Studios in Johnston proper. You are live from the path. Man, you're listening to live from the Path. We're going from the Pathway Studios here in Johnston Proper.

Sure are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, man. I was I had some technical things I was working on. Don't draw attention to it. I won't. I won't. Hey, man. You draw attention to it by randomly stopping. Here's what we got. No. No. There's music playing. This seems normal. Half halfway through second service, half our board went out last week. What? Really? They just kept singing. Yeah. That's the way to do it. Yeah. Yeah. And then somebody some dude went up and, Lindengram was here, and they put his mic down on his guitar so you could hear it because it that's one of the things that went out. Right. You just keep going. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Keep on rocking. You'll be like, hey, everybody. Please pay attention. I'm moving my microphone to the guitar.

Yeah. Hey. Speaking to Kevin Lindgren, he's gonna be here next week. He's got a Kickstarter Heck yeah. For a brand new album coming out, and so he's gonna drop by in the studio. We haven't checked in with Kevin in quite a while up here in the studio. I was on his Kickstarter starter, thing yet, today. I was gonna give some money, and I I didn't yet. Dan, that was a phenomenal story. Get it all out this week. So I'm gonna do it. What are the commitments have you half done this week, Dan? Well, I was looking at it going, oh, what level do I wanna be? This is this is, this is Oh, baby. Gotta put some thought on thousand dollars to be at the possible level? I mean, I wanna be I wanna wanna be the best. But the best he has some big expectations for the to be the best. Oh, man. Yeah. That is rough. I saw, there was another somebody else that I was familiar with that was doing a Kickstarter, and, like, some of these some of these prizes were, like, really lofty. And I thought,

like, I would like to give them that much money, but I actually don't want this thing to happen that they're gonna say. They're like I don't want a jet ride. Hey. We'll do a we'll do a house show and combination, like an art party. And I'm like, you know Sounds awful. Live in your bedroom. Can I drop off $5 and not do the art party? Sounds terrible. Anyway, we're new segment this week, regrets with Dan. That's not hot. Things I could have done. I almost gave money to people. Almost. Thought about it. Alright. Here was good coming on the show tonight. So I I read this article, and I thought it was a good reminder. It was from from Francis Chan, and he said that he's been he baptized his best friend after thirty years of praying that he'd find Jesus.

It's a good reminder of the long suffering, so we're gonna go through that. And we're gonna hit up two of the 10 theses on bible excuse me,

bible poverty and justice from our friend Matthew Loftus. We didn't get to that last week, so we're gonna hit up two this week. And, we're just gonna go through these 10 and say, hey, look, do we, we agree with this? And, make our way through our understanding of what what is probably a I I I think where a lot of the the gray area discussion goes on on, the Christian understanding in America between social justice, government, church responsibility,

and how we view people all end up kind of in this bucket. And so, continued discussion in that realm is probably healthy. So that's where we're gonna hit these and see what we can come to come to. So I met some gals this week at at the convention I went to, admissions convention. That's not what those conventions are for, Dan. Well You're not there to pick up ladies. Didn't pick them up. They would not have been interested. I had a vest. It was a social justice booth booth. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I thought, I'm gonna talk to these gals because they might probably have something really fun. And and, like, they're all, like, you know, 20 and they're all, in black and gray. And I thought, they just kinda almost have a, like, yeah. Social justice look.

It's brutal. I'm sure that's what they're going for. They had the look. They had that vibe. I I was up upstairs in this Skywalker thing looking down, you're supposed to kinda pray. So I was, like, praying for people, they kept catching my eye. I prayed for them a few times. I went down and said, hey. Been praying for you. I wanna know what you do. And I have I got like nothing. It's like Oh, no. We do interns. I'm like, oh, so yeah. Yeah. We just send interns around. I'm like, Like, I I didn't get it. So I got some information. I haven't read it yet, and I'll pass it on to you guys. Dan, this is Regrets with Dan. I never have to. Both stemming from the convention. No. No. No. The first one. You know what? I tell you what I would do. I would pay up to a dollar a day to subscribe to the newspaper that Dan writes for. Oh, yeah. Byline. I stopped by this place. Full story. It was gonna be great. I don't have all the information yet.

I was underwhelmed. Article two. I was gonna donate to this thing, but I didn't. But, actually so it's it's a that's an interesting it's an interesting point because I think think that's where a lot of people get burned or turned off on, like, the phrase social justice is it it's attached to a bunch of community organizing, interning Yeah.

Show up and protest, walk and do show up to the convention. You do anything? No. No. That right. That. Yes. So can I have an intern? Yeah. You know, we send them places. Will they just come and work for me just to go somewhere else to a convention? Because

I mean, they they were sweet. I mean, you know, they were nice people, and I just probably didn't have the right questions, to be honest, because I I was just I I hit a wall. I thought, don't know what to ask you, like, other than what do you do? Nothing. Here's the things of the of the best I had. My opening gambit denied. That wasn't like a top tier interview question? What do you do? That's why I'm on this side of the microphone. Dan, I would pay to to follow you around with a camera and just watch you walk around the booths and interview them? Like, what do you guys do? Okay. Have what? The next booth. Dan, what do you guys with the chicken woman. Yeah. And I I would have pursued that better, it was so loud. I figured it was gonna be really bad audio. It wasn't good audio. I had my microphone in the hotel three blocks away. Yeah. And I I was disappointed I didn't bring it because next year, I'm gonna have I'm gonna have fun with Dan's gonna be ready. Oh. It's gonna be ready. It's gonna be great. We're going to The Ukraine in two years. Oh, sweet. For the missions conference? No. Just Just to go to Ukraine? Separate pathway group. I'm gonna keep doing Zimbabwe. Yeah. I'm sorry. I just switched gears. I went back. I went I was on my path. I'll be quiet. You guys do your show. I'm actually an intern for people that go to Ukraine.

I'm looking for interns right now. They won't let me go until I get a pair of black sweats. Alright. So we're using colors over here. Long trench coats. Before we leave this activist thing, I was reading this sweet article this week about the people that were vandalizing, like, the the pipeline that were getting the tar sands out. Oh, yeah. You know, and and shipping them across. And, like, I I read this super interesting article that the the the big thing that they were trying to prove they were purposely trying to get arrested so they could go to court. And it was I can't remember the name of the defense, but it's a it's a it's a defense that you would use to say, I had no other choice but to commit this crime because all legal options had been exhausted. And therefore, this was a a rightful a rightful act. And and it's a it's a legal defense in court, but people with that that are involved in activism try to use this all the time. And and the folks that were they were up in Minnesota, and it was the it was the pipeline that come down from Canada. And

they cut the the chain to the gate, and they went in. They were basically gonna gonna shut off the the the main pipeline that was coming down from the tar sands. And and so they called the pipeline company ahead of time and said, hey. This is what we're going to do. We're gonna shut down the the the main pipeline. Just for safety reasons, you should know that's what we're doing. And then, basically, all they did is end up, you know, take spinning this. Don't I know if you ever seen a pipeline valve, but it takes, I mean, literally, like, ten minutes to move these things. Like, they're super low geared because they're so big. Oh, well, yeah. Yeah. You just sit I mean, it just takes forever to wheel this thing around. And so eventually, the sheriff shows up and arrests them and whatever. And the whole reason that they did any of it because it actually didn't affect the pipeline at all. They remotely shut the valves down as soon as they knew the people were there. So they were shutting it anyway in a controlled fashion. But, anyway, they they ended up arresting him, and the and it was just a huge plot to be able to get into court and use this this whatever defense that says, hey, I tried to exhaust this through government reasons, through hiring try voting for different senators and no one's listening to me. And so I to commit this crime. Nobody agreed, so I had to make it happen. And it got thrown out of every court in The United States except for Minnesota. And Minnesota gave them a foothold where they said, we're gonna allow this, and they gave them a slap on the wrist and kicked them out, but they set a a legal precedent Right. Where activists can can now, you know, say, look, there's legal precedents here that someone's been allowed to use this defense. Now does that that case go on now? Oops. Sorry. I said, does that mean I can go, like, shut down the abortion clinic? Well, I if you've because I tried everything legally and it didn't work? That but that's the whole name of the defense. It's whatever I don't agree with ex church, so we're gonna go shut them down? Yeah. And so it's it's a scary slippery slope, you know, something but I and and you'd have a hard time obviously with the abortion clinics because it's legal. And so but, like, it's also legal to run a pipeline. Yeah. And so, you know, you know, it it was just it was a super interesting article. And, like, these ladies were, like, 55 and 60, and they're like, I don't care. Put me in jail a couple years. My kids are grown. I'm good.

I don't like the speed limit. I couldn't get anybody to change it. I'll do it myself. Just go a 150. But once again, if you put it in the same category in as as stuff that people are passionate about Yeah. And spending their life doing, and then you look at some of our half hearted efforts to get people to know Jesus and you go, you know, that's we suck. Yeah. Would I be willing to go to jail for Jesus? Yeah. No. There's modern there's modern day Pauls out there shutting down the pipeline for what they believe in. And we go, you know, I can't be bothered. Maybe I'll get here today. Maybe I'll It's gonna be awkward if I get donuts at the Casey's anymore if I go there if I talk to Randy about Jesus. Randy will go, mer. Look. It's goat it's goat Jesus, man. It's goat Jesus, He loves Jesus. I just want this French curly, bro.

So I I found this I found this, Dan. It's called love thy neighborhood from Louisville. This is from Louisville. From Louisville. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This is my picture. Oh, wait. Hold on. Okay. Oh, that's what is that was that what you were trying to get me to do? Oh, no. I was just Okay. Hold on. Alright. Hold on. Here's there it goes. There they are down there. Lodon Neighborhood. Yeah. They're all in black.

Not even didn't answer your questions because he's just wearing black. You see that? Yeah. They got visiting. They attracted all the guards. They tried to give him my vest and say, hey. Dan, I think I know why they didn't answer your questions. That approach and then you taking pictures of them It's creepy. Was never a good way to do things. I said I was I was above looking down on you praying for you. Creepy. Oh, man. Yeah. That's too oh, damn. That's terrifying. That was terrible. Interesting. So so

Well oh, so what do they do? What they do? So they they they do Interns. Yeah. They call, yeah, they call it social justice internships. And so, essentially, what you're doing, it it costs it costs money. It's like you're supposed to raise, like, $10,000 for the year. But, like, you end up going in increments of, like, ten or eleven weeks, and you live, you live in kind of a group setting with other people, like, gender, same age. Uh-huh. And you spend, like, half your day volunteering

in various, like, tracks. So, places designed to help with homelessness, book editing and publishing. So I'm thinking, can't you do that for free? Yes. Yes. Yes.

You can. Yes. We've poked a hole in their plan. Yes. You can. I just listened to them going. It would be weird if Hull is in Ephesus on an internship. You know? I need to raise some money to go to Ephesus so they can volunteer.

I so, actually, so that brings up a good point. It's like, it this goes back to, the conversation we're having about giving to the money overseas. Right? It's people who have the the right heart and the well intentioned, but but we're not getting the most for our the most value out of our effort Yeah. Out of our money, out of our time. Like, as a matter of fact, like, the the risk for a lot of these for programs like these are, like, you're prepare we're constantly preparing people to live in an environment of which they don't actually live Like college. When you could just live. Right? Like Exactly. Like, I get to today's point, Let's do it. Can't you just do it for free? See, I I felt like them looking at my generation going,

what? Why do you do that? Yeah. Right. Right. Oh, because we do that. No. But we don't need you to do that. Well, right. It's not You know, I I just kinda thought, wait. I should be on the other side of the table. They should be talking to me. But You know? Yeah. Yeah. Because so so I I know multiple people that have had this experience. Right? Like, they met Jesus at, a summer camp or something. You know, where you're surrounded by a bunch of other people that are are there for the same reason and and, like, people are giving their lives over to Jesus, like, at at the evening service. I remember that at summer camp, and it was awesome. I got crying. People I'm like, yeah. This is great. You know? And then you get back home, and and even like Jake, who was in last week, was talking about this. And then it just kinda and has this weird skydive. And and and it's because, like, we never actually put people through the paces of what it feels like or what it looks like or what it is like to to live a a a Christ centered life,

not surrounded in, this bubble of of craziness. Right? Like, at the end of the day, your internship put you here. You could leave if you want to. But what happens when you do the exact same thing rooted in your own life, where you gotta keep down some kind of job? The money that's going to buy whatever you're looking to buy is coming from you, you know, or somebody you know. And there's some accountability built into it because you know the person you're saying you're raising money from. You know? So it's the same thing when you do stuff like that at work or or at school or whatever, you walk around and say, hey, raising I'm money to do this. I mean, you're gonna run into these people again. They're they're gonna wanna know what you did with the money. And so there's there there is a little bit of it's not bad. It's not like it's it's all labeled bad, but it's it is a bang for our buck thing. When you when you organize it like you're like you're doing, it's it's like this safe well, I'm here on a mission trip or I'm here on an internship or whatever. It was like, instead of, this is my life. This is what I do. You know? Like Yeah. This is me all the time, and and and I get to know people, and they know me. And, like, it's a consistent this is this is how I live. And so, yeah, I I don't I I totally see the heart benefit to what you're saying. But, like, you're right. The black and white, have we thought this through? Like, the brains that God's given us to say, how can we do the most? Or how can we do any? You know, maybe we it gets lost in that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It'd be I mean, they're not gonna wanna talk about that. It'd be awkward to invite them in and say, I don't know if I agree with your program. Well, I mean, may maybe it's worth the the I mean, some of that conversations we're having you say, like, why doesn't this work? Like, what what why do why are we doing things like is this necessary? Like, is this necessary because people won't do it on their own? Like, are we creating half steps because do it. They they can't yeah. They could. Like, that's the ideal state, but people don't. So the church facilitates a way for them to make progress to a lifestyle that they otherwise or a way of living that they otherwise wouldn't do, which sounds like discipleship. And so that's okay. It's I I think it's a question of, like, do we look at these we look at it and say, but it's a weird way of life. They look at it and say maybe they look at it and say, look, here's a path. Here's a path to getting there because people actually don't know the difference. Yeah. A kickstart. Because maybe I look at, I might look at, the world a little bit differently for having gone for having gone overseas.

Right? Like, and so to to the point of, like, you learn something and then you can apply it to your own life and then you can you can kinda move from there. And so, like, may maybe that's it. But but, it's it's interesting to to think, like, do we run the risk just like we do of kinda how we give overseas and how we do the things that we do, even around us? Like, are the things we're doing actually helping? It's the core thing that every business has to ask. And I think Christianity can ask the same thing. It's like the effort and dollars and time that we're putting into things. Like, is it doing what we expect it to do? And if it's not, maybe it don't work. Maybe we can stop doing it. I didn't consider the fact is, like, if if you go to an underserved portion of Boston and there's no shoe peddler in town, and then we send a shoe peddler to sell shoes, and then everyone goes, well, why don't we just buy from a local shoe peddler? How dare you send this foreign shoe peddler in? Well, the truth is there wasn't a local one. Right? And so and so you're right. Some of my some of my thought process of condemnation of how these things are going, you're Dan's right. If if the people locally were doing it, then there would be no room for the intern to show up and do it. And so yeah. So it's it's a much it's it's a broader swath,

Christian society issue than it is, you know, people just trying to fill in the gaps. We're creating the gaps too. We're creating our own economy. Right? Like, we're both creating the gaps and the people to fill them. Yes. Yes. That's what's happening. I'm with you. Okay. Alright. There we go. Can tell you about my other one I talked to? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't really intend to talk about all this type of There's another little booth I went to and they're they're older folks. And I went, I said, do you what do you guys do? And she goes, we do revival. Like, what? We travel around and we go to your church and we do a revival. I looked at my watch and it was not 1975. I was like, really? You really do that? Yes. We do that. We sing

and we have revivals. Man. Like I mean, did it get you excite you you It did not. No. It's not even. No. They said we don't charge anything. We just come do it. Oh, man. Sure they take an offering. But Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Probably like to. Have you even heard of a church doing a revival in Not not anywhere above the Mason Dixon line. Yeah. Yeah. Within the last ten decades, ten years in Mason Dixon line, no. It's gonna have a speechless.

I guess they gotta I don't know about that. I feel like people are still doing it up here. Oh, actually, the Sam, the Sam Sam Rose. I was gonna say, I went to, that was an apartment complex I do security for. I was walking through and there was a, a poster up on the billboard that said or up on their, bulletin board that said there was a revival at a a church nearby. Wow. And they were bringing in pastor blah blah blah blah blah. And he was gonna be doing a revival service here soon. Sounds charismatic. Yeah. He's great. What's the biblical precedence for revivals? Right? Is it is it when they they reopened the law and then busted it out and then and then had a I I mean, that's basically what that was. Right? Who was it? Hezekiah? Who was it? Who did it? Who busted the the

the law back out and goes, oh, man. We haven't been following this at all. Hezekiah did. Yeah. And they were doing the wall and everything. Well, so so Or Nehemiah, I mean. So make it make it if if you if you generalize it a little bit, I mean, the thought of traveling of a traveling guy going from town to town talking to people is it certainly has biblical precedent. Sure. So, I mean, there's no I I think there's nothing kind of implicitly there's nothing implicitly wrong with, like, having traveling folks go church to church. I think the the the concept of a revival as a as a focused thing.

I mean, she she claimed it will grow the church. Yeah. So It will grow your church. Yeah. I I guess that's the thing is it sounds it it's it takes the it takes the greatest would you hear what I say, well here, like, it takes the greatest risk in some of what we do to try to draw people into church and and detaches it from the things that help convert that into long term discipleship and just makes it that's the only thing. Like, it's prone to be it can be manipulative. It divorces people from, from the community that's around them. It ties it ties the relationship to Christ to an event as opposed to a community and, obviously, Jesus. And then and then it then it walks away.

Whereas Paul, for example, like, if Paul's going from town to town, he's creating churches as he goes. Like, his intent is to plant churches of which then he leaves and then comes back and checks on them and then preaches to them. Right? But the the method isn't just, hey, we come, we show up, we we dunk, we baptize, we bring them to the Lord, and then we then we fade. That's that's not happening. Although, I suppose if they're going church to church, they're intending to connect it to a to a thing. I don't know. Ah, yeah. I don't know. I've I guess my concept of revival is probably 30 years old, twenty years old. Like, I don't have any concept of what that looks like. Maybe they have Those are too, though. Maybe they have newfangled revivals that you don't know about, that they're super hip and cool. The thing is, these conferences,

to have a booth there, it's big doll Well, that's interesting. Hundreds of dollars to to to have a booth space. So it's interesting to think that they come to your place for free, and even if they're taking an offering or whatever. Remember, we we've talked about trouble getting bands to come places because we, churches don't pay them very much. And, like, these folks can go around and pick up decent amount of money and enough to buy a booth at the at the admissions convention. Interesting. Hey. So tell give us your revival experience. Like, if you've had an experience with a revival

either in your past or or or recently, we'd like to hear about it. You can call the you can call the complaint line and call (515) 517-0085 or send us a text, (515) 517-0085, And, tell us your revival experience. I don't know. I Mike, have have you been to one? I think grandpa did one at a a church we were going to when we were little. You know? But, I mean, really, was a guest speaker. It was just I mean, he was the guest speaker. Yeah. They called it a revival, but he was just a different guy. Yeah. Okay. And most churches actually do that on a decent rotation anyway. You know what I'm saying? Like, this the the the head dude will be there for, like, whatever, four or five weeks, and then they'll send another guy in there for a week or so to give him a little break. Yeah. And so, like, this concept of like a a new guy bringing the word, you know, it's not all that foreign. People plus with with, I mean, with with media, with podcasts and and and YouTube,

you could you could get the word delivered by whoever you want. You know, if you want a a monkey with one arm preaching you through Luke, you could find it on the YouTube. He's do it. Yeah. I wanna Google that. I you know? It's very strange. I mean, here's the thing. Is it, like, there there's certainly, like now I feel like I'm waving a little bit because, like, there's certainly I'm I'm I'm bored. Should have one. No. No. No. I I guess, like, the the things, like, it it has the core material to be something that's edifying to the church. Oh, Think think think of the celebrations in the old testament. Right? Like, focus time where the church gets together and said, look, we're we're going to to to to praise God for what he's done. We're going to seek his seek his his his face and his glory and and and and the direction for things like It's a shot in the arm. What are doing two weeks in a row? I mean, every single night for two weeks, you know, they come in and and it was it was big time. Every church did them. I mean I don't is it is it the is the thing, though, is I suppose if they're saying it's gonna grow the church, like, my the focus where it sounds completely edifying to the church is internal. Yeah. But then again, we stink at evangelism. So, I mean, if we're not doing anything else, does the guy in the tent I mean, do we give him a go at It's like the interns. Right? They're filling a gap that we created. Revival man's filling a gap. I mean, what their their something is better than our nothing? I I think I think what happened is after several years, decades of doing this, people started looking around saying, hey, the people coming to these are just the people in our same fellowship of churches, whatever denomination you're in that well, they'd all from that area would come together. So you felt good because, yeah, we're really full, but then they all go back to their own churches, you know, and because that's where they're from, you know. And and then they go, well, I guess it didn't really accomplish anything other than it was fun. It was good. It was We assessed it as it not not actually producing the value that we think. Like, it was it may have been a beneficial time. If the point was to grow the kingdom Yeah. Not celebrate the fact that we could put a tent up Yeah. And get together, which we could have done anyway.

Right. Right. That right. It just comes down to the assessment. Is it actually growing the kingdom? And, like, I can't imagine that. Maybe that worked before, but, like, I can't I don't know a man I mean, not to a man. Could we be like, hey. I don't know or love Jesus Jesus. Yeah. Yeah. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Ten second technical time out. Okay. I don't think you should enter that part.

Okay. We're back in. Anyway, we've always been in. I was on a tangent. We missed the best part. What was the tangent about? Here's the thing though. Aren't aren't modern worship bands, like, isn't that isn't that basically the traveling revival? Yeah. Like a band comes in, it gets set up at a church, then people from all different churches come in, they listen to a night of worship, they they they sing and then they all leave and go to their other back to their regular church. And I mean, at the end of the day, wasn't it kind of foolish anyway? These people already love Jesus. I mean, you think they're actually gonna start coming to your church because you brought a visiting band in? That don't make no sense. That band might come back. Their whole community is rooted somewhere else. Well, you just let them go back. You know, can't we just get together for a night of celebration? Or we gotta call it something more than it is. For example, like Life From The Past did a few years ago at Christmas time. Yeah. That was fun. Hey, man. Our Christmas album. Hey. It's about time to hock that again, baby. Yeah. Yeah. Mean, we've sold four copies. If we could get another three or four, that'd be fantastic. It's it's good because we get pantsed by another one. We'll autograph it. Right. You're right. So those are fun they're fun things and, like, there's nothing wrong with those things. I suppose it's the billing of, the promises that it's making that, like,

we we don't don't seem to pan out. Like, it's just not like we could you could do accomplish the things that are actually edifying without doing all of that and probably not having to bring someone in necessarily like these folks. I don't know. Anyway, give us your revival experiences. 51551, (515) 517-0085 by taller text. That's a live friend, Pathway, Playwright.

So there there was an article I read. Is from Christian Post, and it said, Francis Chan baptized his best friend. After thirty years of praying, he'll find Christ. Says, Francis Chan has revealed that after thirty years of praying for his best friend to find Jesus Christ, he was finally able to baptize him into the faith a couple of years ago. The Christian pastor, author, and church planner said that prayer is essential in such cases, admitting that his past efforts to convince people through words were ridiculous. He said it's similar to the first time he climbed into a cave and and experiencing how pitch dark it was and compared it to the darkness the apostle Paul described in second Corinthians four three to six. He says hold on. He says, we all walk in complete spiritual darkness unless god decides to shine the light on us. In some mysterious way, god shines light in a person's heart so that he instantly sees the beauty of the gospel. No amount of human effort can produce this. Salvation is a miracle of god. Many of us would say that we believe this theological truth, but our actions betray us, revealing just how much we trust in people's speeches and events. On more than one occasion, people have begged me to speak to their lost friends, believing that my words would make the difference. Too often, I've granted their wish rather than correcting their theology and tried desperately to come up with the perfect words to talk their friends into following love with Jesus. Do you see yet how ridiculous this is? Dan pointed to Jesus' words in Luke eighteen one about how people ought to always pray and not lose heart and shared of his own thirty year prayer journey for his best friend. And so the description was my best friend in college decided that he didn't wanna follow Jesus. It broke my heart. Ken and I went our separate ways, our lives went in opposite directions.

I never stopped praying for him, though. I couldn't. Whenever Ken's name would pop into my mind, prayer was my natural reflex. Two years ago, I was speaking in Seattle where Ken lived. I invited him to the event so we could reconnect. We graduated from high school in 1985. After thirty years of prayer, God decided to shine his light on his heart. Suddenly, Jesus looked beautiful to him, and he couldn't believe that he didn't see it all see it all this time, The pastor added, a few weeks later, Ken and his wife flew down to San Francisco, and I baptized him. I can't express what a gift that was. He's one of the few people I have prayed for consistently for thirty years. Small price to pay to be with him for the next 30,000,000. So I I what I thought was cool about that story is, I've I've had that that situation,

more, like, many, many times in my life where I felt like, like, I'm I'm supposed to fix this. I'm supposed to do something. And I feel like I've done everything I could possibly do, and I'm like, this isn't working. And it runs the risk of saying, like, hey, the faithfulness in Jesus doesn't work or god's way that he has ordained that life is to be lived doesn't work. And there's the element here that a man who has obviously accomplished

much. God has accomplished much through him in the way in for for the kingdom through through a guy like Francis Chan. And it took his thirty his his best friend thirty years to come to know to know Jesus. And, I don't It was a good reminder that, like, that there have been times when I've transferred, god's weight onto my shoulders and, it was too heavy and, of course, it would be. And so that was, anyway, I was I was encouraged encouraged by that.

Would you would you guys say have you ever run into something similar? Of, trying to take god's weight on my shoulders? Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Super guilty. Super guilty, man.

So so, I mean yeah. What what's the what's the rub here? Like, why do we why do we do that? Because you wanna do something. Right? You think, like, he I mean, there's there's a bit of pride in there that thinking, you know, I will be the one that do that does this or or, you know, like, still pointing them to Jesus, but you're like, if they could just hear it in the right way or they could just be in this situation and and take it on. And and it's funny, like, we talked about this a little bit last week or the week before, something about about the way you were reading your bible, like getting it to know like reading it to know God instead of what you can get out of it. And like, boy, I I gotta be real honest. In the last couple years, I I I was getting pretty down because, like, I had tried to talk to Jesus or or about Jesus to, I don't know, 10 dudes. And every single one of them failed. I mean, just blew up in my face, failed terribly. And I'm like, I'm praying at night. I'm like, I have no idea what I am doing wrong here, Lord. Do I feel like I I am I not am not listening to what you're saying? Am I not understanding,

you know, how to go about this? Maybe I don't even understand how to make disciples. So I go back and watch and read Jesus' life again. I'm like, okay. I I I think I think I got it. You know what saying? Like, I was gonna come up with something. And and and and it was been in the last couple months, you know, where God goes, look, this has never been about you. This is why you're missing it. You're standing in my way. Right? You're on your way to get to me. You're still standing there right in front of of what I'm trying to do. And maybe it has nothing to do with the plans that you had come up with. You know? And so, like, it it rings very true that that you really you can't say that I trust Jesus to take all my sins away, but I don't trust him to handle this situation with my friend. Right? I don't trust him to handle this situation. And so, like, you you not only have to trust him to do it, you have to actually trust him to do it, which means you have to stop having, like, anxiety and this fear of dread and, like and and and and that you carry around and, like, when you run into him, you're like, man, hope the conversations get

steered towards Christ in some way. Maybe I'll bring up this phony thing or whatever or act like a shirt. Yeah. By the way, I was at a youth group or whatever and this came up and the guy started rolling his eyes, you know, and you're like, oh, man. Fail again. We're so harvest oriented that we forget that that maybe our job's just watering or planting. Somebody gotta grow the wheat. Yeah. Yeah. I I mean, that's legitimate equal importance in the kingdom. God worries about who who gets the harvest. You know, we're so focused on I'm a fail if I didn't harvest this person.

And and, like, we we throw out vast areas of scripture because we call ourselves failures because we didn't do it. We we didn't get to baptize them. We didn't get to, you know, whatever. And it's like, maybe you said something that you have no idea what you said that made an impact on them or maybe they just were watching you and that that's what had an impact on them. Who knows? Who You know, I but that's the thing is I think we fall too much on one side where where the the risk is is that you're like, yeah, I just water. You know? Yeah. Yeah. Because now you've determined that You can go the other way. You've saying, I I I just water or I just throw a blanket. It's like the dude with the pamphlet or the guy with the sign, you know, that's like, I throw the seeds out everywhere. One of these is bound to I'm no harvest guy. Yeah. I'm not a harvest man. I don't I don't do the hard stuff of actually knowing a guy for years. You know what I'm saying? And but, actually, I I don't know that I'm I'm consistent enough on stuff that I pray for. I bet it goes week. Week and a half maybe. Uh-huh. And then I start fading out. I forget completely. How much And then they'll fall off the rails or something three months later. I'm like, I stopped praying for them. Crap. That's on me. You know? And, like, it ain't on me, but I still should have been praying for them. Yeah. You know, I think I think doing youth group and and being a leader in youth group has has helped me immensely in this and actually kind of, have shown me a a lot of flaws in this because, you know, when I think back to when I was in youth group, I don't remember the vast majority of the lessons I ever learned. I could tell. I don't remember every Wednesday. I don't remember the stuff they went through. I mean, sure I'm sure that the youth leaders, like, put a lot of thought into a lot of stuff they said, but I do not remember any of it. But I can tell you

certain things that I do remember and certain things that do come to pass in my mind nowadays and certain people who used to be my youth leaders that, like, they may have just shown up to something that meant something, or they may have just been there for me. And it wasn't about all of that work. It was the fact that they were willing to just be there. They weren't the one to harvest it. They're they they may not have been the one that even was really growing me. They may have just been saying random things to keep me out of trouble every Wednesday. That's where I was. But nowadays, I can look back in that and say, you know, it may not have been life changing things saying, but it was them being willing to be there. I see that now when I teach youth group. Like, I put thought and heart into these these lessons and stuff like that, and then I ask them the next week what he learned about, they go, I don't know. Like Yeah. Absolutely. Okay. Well, what did we talk about last week? They're like, Mark one. Like, yeah. Okay. What about Mark one? What'd you what'd what'd we learn? Jesus

was there. I'm like, oh, good guys. Sweet. I'm glad we're doing this. But, like, I realized, you know, a lot of the work that I may be putting in, it doesn't mean I'm gonna change the fact that I work hard every week. It also means there's a chance that me showing up to their band practice or their band recital, me showing up to a football game, being there when they're having troubles, you know, praying for them. I I'm I'm trying to do a good job of lessons, but I don't think I'm doing a great job of praying for. And like that's where that meets at is

is like I'm I'm trying to take the the place of, well, Jesus should be important in your life and here's why and I'm not doing it right. I should be just taking a step back and being like, how can I trust God to handle this? He's got me here to do a job, but, like, how can I actually be asking God to handle to not Well, I think that's that that goes back to what Mike was saying is like, hey? You know, why do we do that? Well, we we feel like we we wanna do something. We wanna get something done. And, like, as if praying for them isn't doing something. Right. Like, that's that's where I, that feels to me like I'm just saying, god, I nothing nothing for me here. This is the best I can do. When, like, really, it's the best I can do. Yeah. And and so, frankly, it comes down to a it's a relationship issue. It's a faithful issue that says god says, like, I don't have to know how it works. I just know that, like, this is this solves problems. This is where if things are gonna happen, they're gonna happen here. And then I and then we make the most of every opportunity that we can, whether it's whether it's, sowing, whether it's harvesting, like, whatever it is,

and watching the not not doing the buckets, but, like, where it's not focused or centered on, god makes the way, then then, yeah, you're you're gonna feel like you're fighting your own path because you are. And, you know, you can't be surprised when it produces kind of your level of results. We we so underestimate

the spiritual connection of everything we do. I should just study on this sometime just to make me feel good. I mean, like, just look at think of scripture of the things you don't think about that have spiritual implications.

You know, get along with your wife so it doesn't hinder your prayers. Like, what does that have to do with my prayer? Yeah. Know, I mean, there's all these little connections here that have total spiritual, you know, effect with something else that you're doing and, you know, as you say, the biggest thing you'd be doing is praying for the youth group, right, you know, and praying for the kids and praying for the people in your ear. And and but that's not tangible. We can't look at it and feel it and touch it, you know. So we're like, yeah, yeah, I'll do that when I I'll do that as I'm falling asleep. Right. You know, I don't know if I'm gonna put time to it, you know. You you know how this this life whooped with Abram?

Because the Lord promised him a son. And for Abram to do his part, he has to say, look woman, we gotta help the Lord in this deal. You know what I'm saying? Like, Abram had this he it like, of all the things that we try to say, look, we gotta we gotta help God with the thing. Like, no no one can save Steve unless we send a guy to talk to Steve. Someone's gotta go talk to Steve. But Abram, I mean, he what a solid position, know? Okay. No one has any reaction to that Abram thing, Mike. I it just occurred to me, and I thought it was I thought it was super interesting. I I was I thought it was clever, Mike. Grasp what you were saying. Like, what what part of what? He gets to have sex with his wife a lot. That's what I thought you were saying, but I don't wanna go there because That's what I'm getting at. Didn't wanna be all junior high about it. No. No. That's exactly where I was going.

So okay. Good. I mean, we're like, hey. I'm proud of my maturity. We gotta go visit people, and Abraham's like, look. The lord promised his baby it was gonna happen. I mean, obviously what if it's today? We obviously gotta do it. Yeah. Haven't heard yes yet. Okay. He's having a alright. Let's look at these. So here here were the 10 feces. Let's talk about Abraham having sex with his wife. That's that's alright. We're gonna let that go. That's the 5155 I was gonna say if you wanna say something on the complain line.

If your if your name's Abraham and you're not getting enough action at home, give us a call. Sweet Moses. There ain't no booth for that at the. There should be. Alright. So this was an article by Matthew Loftus, at Mirror Orthodoxy called 10 Theses on Bible Poverty and Justice.

And, he says, Peter Moran and Dorothy Day wrote about building the kind of society where it is easier for people to be good. While Moran and Day were very much against statism and would probably disagree with a number of the points below, I found their turn of phrase about easier for people to be good quite compelling with regards to justice and righteousness. Thus, I have formulated 10 theses below on the subject to discuss. Each of them could be an essay of its own, but I've limited the discussion to a paragraph for each. Here we go. Number one. So our our reaction is to say, hey, do we do we agree with these that this is

ultimately the right under the right thesis on the kind of society where it's easier for people to be good cross section of of the bible, justice, and poverty. Number one, human governments are ordained by God to uphold justice and are accountable to God for their actions. Here's the description. Despite their frequent failures to honor God and his law, human governments are ordained by God for the sake of upholding justice. God will judge all the nations of the earth and their rulers according to their deeds. The responsibility of the church on earth is to remind our rulers that their authority has been given for a purpose, and they will be held accountable for it. When the church proclaims Jesus is lord, politicians ought to inspire fear and self examination because they are reminded that they are ultimately vassals and stewards of Jesus' reign. That rightly understand governments and people.

Core Core thought again, human governments are ordained by God to uphold justice and are accountable to God for their actions. And they're defining justice to make sure everybody's fed and closed. No. We did not provide any additional, description. We're just filter on it ourselves. Dan's gonna put it on there. So biblically

and so, this is I mean, this is biblically accurate to the extent that that that is why, governments are are, are there. That's Paul's description of what governments are for, not,

Dan's, added lens aside. That that that God has instituted governments with a responsibility, for,

like, both with a responsibility and an accountability for what they do. So is it to say that God has has set up the system of government and and basically the same thing like he when he talks to to people being teachers of

of the scripture that says, look, not everybody has to be a teacher, but if you're gonna, this is what I'm gonna hold you accountable to. Is is that what we're saying the same thing about governments? I'd similarly yes. I think that's Not I put pull pot in place. Right. Right. It's just like the the the station itself. Okay. Okay.

So, this I think the prime reference will be Romans 13. Let every person be subject to governing authorities, for there's no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authorities resist what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain, for he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer.

Therefore, one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath, but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this, you also pay taxes for the authorities or ministers of God attending to this very thing. So actually, would include the so the justice element of kind of what you're talking about, is that they're they're collecting, taxes to be ministers of God. And I don't that doesn't seem to me like it's, exclusive of wrath or justice. Right? That's it carried to the first half of that section. Pay all to what is owed them, taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

Human governments are ordained by God to uphold justice and are accountable to God for their actions. I still don't quite understand this. Are we saying that, like and I this always confused me. So the people that are that are terrible in power, they Stalin. This this verse is talking about him? No. Yes.

Help me. No. This is saying the system of government God has put in place. Agreed. Yeah. I Nott Nott says, look, if if if if Hitler says this is what we're gonna do, you best fall in line. Yes. He has strayed from the purpose. Right. Correct. Yeah. People can ruin the the system that is the government. That's the problem.

Government in itself is ordained. Fact basically, if you if you wanna think of a broad concept, it's, God is pro authority. He he he is pro systems of, of governing or infrastructure

of of p some people having the the added responsibility and accountability, but also the authority to govern others for their own sake and to admit according to God's justice and and means and ways. Okay. So I feel like I've heard this misused quite a bit, actually. Almost with those especially, I mean, America. Right? Because we have so much choice involved with our government,

you know, that that it is actually our responsibility to pick the guy that we're gonna do, generally. And so, I've heard a lot of people misuse this stuff to say, look, this is the deal. God put them in. Like, whoever happened to be elected president this year was was put there by the lord. You know what I'm saying? And and, like, that's not necessarily what we're saying here. We're saying this the system in place was instituted by god, but, like, the specific people, not necessarily. I mean, that starts to bend to your theology. Like, the more that you think that god is otherwise

directing all those things specifically, like, there's not there's less of a concept of free will than than it says God did it. I'm And there's then there's other scripture that kinda refers to Like, specific Oh, God put people in Mhmm. Those kind of stuff together. Yeah. I gotta be honest. You haven't cleared this stuff for me at all. Thanks.

I was looking for some clarity here so I could move on with my life in a in a purposeful way. I don't I so I I would I my reaction to this would be yes. I think human governments are, ordained by God, and I I think they are to it is their responsibility to uphold justice, and they are accountable to God for their actions. I yes. So what's the point of this of of the thesis then? Is that something that you think we broadly misunderstand? Yeah. So I think the point he's I think he's trying to build, like, an understanding of how we should rightly understand ourselves, like the church, the government authorities,

and the types of needs that are out there, and then ulti ultimately, like, how those interact. Like, I think they all they all combine to try to have a have a broad conversation. So the question is, like, are there elements that we can accept or reject as we go? And so, like, I I don't I don't I I don't have any problem accepting this one. Dan, do you still have hesitance because the definition of justice? I I guess I just need clear definitions of how they're using things to know. Is and the larger the government, the more difficult it is to do these things

because you just can't. I I can't I can't tell you if the person three blocks away is is cheating the system or truly needs help. I think the government should help people who truly need help. How do they how do they keep from corrupting the system? The larger it is, the easier it is to corrupt and then you're wasting. And you're like, it's you're you're actually hurting people and and yeah. So but I I think government should be involved.

But Dan's hesitant on the prescription, if it prescribes justice and how far it extends. So we'll we'll see let's let's look at some of the other theses and we'll see if it helps to clarify that point. Alright. Number two was, justice is not merely about rights. The best human society is one in which acting righteously is most accessible to as many people as possible.

Here's the here's the discussion. Liberal society in the West today primarily thinks of justice in terms of positive or negative rights, usually more of the latter than the former, especially among right wing classical liberals. However, this is anemic standard of justice. Throughout the Bible, we encounter a vision of judgment and justice that certainly includes not not depriving others of what they deserve, but more fundamentally envisions a society in which our relationships with God and one another are whole and our actions towards one another and God are righteous. Biblical justice is not merely the absence of rights violations in society, but is the inclusion of all people in that society in a life of righteous behavior and true worship. A just society then is one in which the powers that society possesses are used to direct people towards righteous and just behavior

rather than merely catching violations of rights after the fact. Well, I feel like this is above my head, Ben. Yep. I was just about to say the same thing. So so look at the the the last sentence, I think, is the is the core. A just society, is one in which the powers that the society possesses are used to direct people towards righteous and just behavior

rather than merely catching violations of rights after the fact. So is is is should we think of justice as not only, punishment of wrong behavior, but should we consider also that that justice is the setting up of your society in such a way Encouraging.

Yes. That has the best opportunity for righteous behavior. Yeah. Right relationships between people and God. Is that is that do we consider that part of ultimately I think this is where it ties in number one, part of the government's purvey. I mean, maybe it depends on what I I because of the floating the floating

I I it's because of the floating definition of righteous, I guess. I mean, I know what I I know what ours think what I think it is, you know, but but what other people feel to be righteous in the in society. So ignore ignore the specifics of the definition of righteous. To the extent that it can be defined, let's assume that we could agree on a definition. Do we agree that justice in comp encapsulates both

stopping negative behavior and put a getting the best opportunity for the positive behavior, for the righteous behavior. I mean, suppose, you know, I you'd have to give me a solid example of where I wouldn't think that. I I would have to say I I do think so because I get upset when they

take down laws that try to encourage positive behavior. If if they allow homosexual marriage, means they

used to say that's not healthy, don't do it. Now they say, ah, do what you want. I look at that as societal breakdown as opposed to, I don't know what that's supposed to. But I mean, where where before the government was doing its job to protect us from ourselves, now it's saying you do whatever you want even if it just leads to to destruction because they've lost

the definition of righteous. Yeah. So because I get upset by that probably tells me I think that is government's job. So Totally. And so the question I suppose is, does that extend outside of laws? So if the government has the responsibility

as part of the in encouraging justice to otherwise point people to, direct people toward righteous and just behavior, that power that they have outside of creating a law to either to keep people from things should they be using its resources or its power outside of laws to direct people towards those things. I think this is getting closer to Dan what you were concerned about in in item one, which is if we have those like, why why why do we if if that's a government responsibility,

why do we stop at only laws if the government has the power and influence to otherwise direct or make it so they have the best opportunity for righteous behavior should they not use it even outside of laws? For example, so, like, as as definitions have shifted over the years, the government now will use fees and and and intimidation to shut down a bakery that doesn't do what they think is righteous, which would be cooking

baking a cake Right. Or a gay marriage. They're imposing their view of righteousness on someone,

force them to do what they want. They being government this big Yes. You know. Right. It's not just a law, it's it's some other method of influence. Which is probably where I waver and and and go back to, no, I don't think the government should be involved because you can't trust the government. Ah. Who from from generation to generation. So so and so this is the rub and I think this is the rub where we've run into a few times. Right? It's the specificity of do we not whether the government has or should you use the responsibility or power that they have, but whether they're capable of doing it well. If they agree with me, then I'm all for it. Well, of course. I think that's that's the that's the difficult one. That will likely be the continued rub, actually Yeah. As it goes. Okay. We're gonna stop at two. Boy.

That's heavy. I feel dumb. These are yeah. Like, I can't even process when you read more than one sentence. I'm still trying to get through the first one going, I'm not sure what I think there. I kinda shifted towards some software I'm thinking about buying, I have to admit. Wait a minute. We're we're talking about something here. Yeah. I was in a an ethics course over over the summer, my last semester of college. The third paragraph. I literally Like, woah. I like yeah. Exactly. I took an online ethics course, which was an awful decision. This is why the government's where it is. People like us are voting. I feel like I feel like when Ben read that, I was like, wow. I wonder if Ben's an ethics in

No. Alright, boys. I'm gonna send you this link. We're gonna see if we can digest it over a week. I like your optimism that thinking time is gonna help. Yes. BUVA passed exactly the scores, I imagine. I did. Okay. Well, then BUVA should at least be scoring. Paying attention to this. Actually, this'll this this'll work out good. Wait. Hold on. Hold on. We forgot one thing. Okay.

BUVA's got the youth group question of the week. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So Yeah. Youth group question of the week. So in youth group last week, I was actually stopped by one of my my younger gals. She's probably 12, 13 years old. And I kind of encourage oddball questions, if you will. We go through a certain set of scripture every week or we'll go through the title topic. And then I kind of allow, you know, air brained off chewed some questions. Because a lot of times they develop even even better discussion than when I just have a lesson, like to follow this rep.

And so I was asked a question and I I thought to myself, I could probably answer it, but do I know my biblical backing on the question and would I feel comfortable answering it? So I thought to myself, I wanna bring it to a group of dudes that I know, read their bibles and can vet out certain things and I wanna see what you guys think and then we'll figure it out. So question I was asked was, do babies go to heaven? Okay. It's a very simple question. Do babies go to heaven? Now I'm certain that everyone has their own little answer to that and has a quick answer. Actually a bit of a Pandora's box.

And so that's why I stopped myself and I thought to myself, do I have a quick answer in my head? Yes. But is it right? Have have I gone through the right things to make certain that I am biblically sound in this or even close to? And so, I wanted to bring that question to you guys and and and ask you as as fellow Christ followers,

do babies go to heaven? Dan, if you had I assume you've had to deal with this Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Funerals and such. Matter of fact, I did a funeral once where the mother of an infant the infant passed away and, was just in in tears in a little room right prior to the funeral because a relative, an aunt or something, came in and said, you know, your baby's in hell because you didn't have that baby baptized. Explanation of

a Mhmm. Just because they they we are not judged on Adam's sin. We're judged on our sin. He has not sinned. They're innocent and pure. And until they rebel against God, there's no sin that separates them from God. So, of course, they're in

Okay. And so the the theological divisions start to begin here. Like, if you were reformed tradition would would generally say that we are we are sinful from the womb, pulling from alms

known as innocent, no, not one, things like that. And so that the baby does inherit Adam's original sin and so is is sinful even then. Which is why they baptize babies. That's right. That's why they baptize babies. Yeah. And so and so Did you say the reference for that was a poem? Yeah. Yeah. A poem. Okay. Right on. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I because we gotta be careful. And so well, and and some aspects of Paul. Again, it's just it's just how they read Paul. Yeah.

But but yeah. So, like, that's where your theological tradition starts to start to change how you otherwise understand that question. If you believe, Like, I don't think it takes very long for, you know, new creations to start sending the the savior Lord. I think certainly. I I think God is ultimately good, and I think he is he is gracious and merciful, and he is just. And so to the questions that I cannot answer clearly, I I'm confident that he is just in. And so

but but, again, I like like I was getting at, the theological tradition start to spend the the reformed tradition would would would generally say it's it's up to god whether he chose that baby to be saved or not, regardless of a sin sinful state, the same way they would think of an adult. Whereas other traditions, like Dan was talking about, like, you know, the baby did not have the opportunity to bend against their crate. And so, heaven. And so okay. So the I suppose the reason I brought that up is that was my answer as well. And I I didn't quite give them an answer yet. I told them that I wanted them, I kind of challenged them. I said, want you guys to go find scripture. I said, I'm not gonna give you any any

advice right now. I wanna see what you can come up with. Take this question, hop into your Bibles, find something. You know, look into resources, talk to other Christ followers. Talk to your parents, talk to talk to your pastors, talk to whoever about what you think this answer might be and try and figure out what Ultimately, I'd come back to the same concept that Dan had had, which was

I believe babies to be sinless in nature and have the the ability to sin, you know, without the the understanding of right and wrong, without the understanding what what is sin and what isn't, you know, actions really don't fall under the

gavel of of judgment because of right and wrong. I say we're born with the nature of sin. So when that time comes, we can choose right or wrong. Right. We will we will choose wrong. Exactly. Yes. I agree with that entirely. But I and and I guess that that poses the question of like, you know, is there a cut off to that? And I I obviously, there's really no reason to know the answer to that. That's where you start to get in discussions. Exactly. Honest is that, like, the bible isn't altogether helpful. Right. Yeah. Right? Like, you'll go look, like, there's not a concept of age accountability in the in scripture. There isn't. Right? And so and and the truth is is that smart people who love Jesus diverge in completely Right. On this particular topic. And I I think I kinda set them out on on path for intended failure, because I wanted them to kind of run into that of you know sometimes there may be questions that we ask that we think are are practical questions that have a lot of weight of babies go to heaven things. There are certain things that the Bible just doesn't talk about. There are certain things the Bible does not lay out for us as as specifically

as we would want and that's where you know a trust in the fact of the just nature of God and and the understanding that He is creator of the universe and and knows what things are good. That trust is an important part of that relationship. And and so I'm hoping I'm I'm very interested to see what they come up with, and very interested to see what kind of discussion.

And so, you know, that's why guys to see see what you see if I was orienting my at least in line, if not close to in line with other believers that I that I trust.

So Yeah. That's that's a that's a rat's nest. Yeah. So that's questions from the youth this week. Okay. Alright. Good. Alright, Mike. What what did you have? Hang on. Exodus 34, there's the longest description that God gives of his character. And he says he's just talking about himself here. And and and actually, this is just after

the the golden calf incident. Right? And then I think it was like 3,000 dudes stood steadfast in their in their rebellion and said, we're gonna stick with this. So God wiped them out, killed them instantly, gone. And so the Lord's coming down to talk to Moses and explain himself. And like I said, this is the longest of Yahweh explaining his character and the way he acts. And it says, Yahweh Yahweh, a god merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love and faithfulness, keeping steadfast love for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, but who will by no means clear the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children and the children's children to the third and the fourth generation.

And so the the the that specific of of God describing his character came to mind when you were talking about this because, like, basically, if you look at the way at what what God's describing, he's describing both parts two parts of his character, and one is his mercy and one is his justice. And, like, if you were to put it on a scale, you would start to see you would start to see mercy start to weigh down and justice start to go up. So because they're both they both exist in God's character, but the mercy way outweighs the justice. When he says, I have steadfast love for thousands of generations, and I will I will visit the iniquity on three or four generations. Right? So he's basically saying, when looking at when trying to compare some characteristics that God that that Yahweh has,

my mercy way outweighs my justice. Otherwise, you guys wouldn't even be here. Right? You wouldn't even exist. And so, like, even when bringing up that question about about babies and about kids or whatever, like, at the end of the day, if I don't believe that God is merciful and just with a heavy handed mercy, I mean, what the heck kind of God I wanna be following? Right? Like, it just it just cannot seem to to to even with all the legal arguments you could probably make with pulling scripture together, you're looking at God's character as a whole and the way that he is has interacted with people who have willfully sinned against him. Not to mention children.

You know what I'm saying? Like, it just doesn't seem to match up to me. Alright. I was super excited that I had a scripture come to mind when we were talking about it. That's really good. I appreciate that. Okay. Dear oh, man. It's from Iowa. Crap. Dear life from the path.

I have a friend who constantly talks about all the negative politics going on today. I'm sick of hearing it. Not because I don't care or disagree, but has become the topic of every conversation. She's extremely depressed, has major anxiety issues, and despite seeing a therapist, her condition has not only not improved, but has gotten worse. I feel it has become a one way conversation, and she's not interested in listening to me. This is extremely upsetting because my husband passed away two years ago, and he doesn't wanna hear about it. He thinks it is less important since it only affects me, and I should have gotten over it by now. My husband and I were married thirty years, and his death was sudden and unexpected. Please help me get through this difficult time.

Overwhelmed in Iowa. Why? Oh, wait a minute. This is about two things. Yeah. What happened? I find some good friends. Yeah. The letter started out as, I have this friend who all they wanna do is talk about politics. But then she's like, but really, I wanna talk about the fact that my husband has passed away. You're sleeping. Yeah. Yeah. And so, I mean, you've you've made this completely about two things. You should have wrote two separate letters. One, I have an obnoxious friend who wants to talk about politics all the time, what should I do? And two, I'm lonely. My husband passed away and I feel like I've I've incurred a great loss. Because two years, nothing. That is nothing in the amount of time that that that your husband has passed away. It's still a big deal. Yeah. And so these are just two separate scenarios.

So let's answer the one first. Over politicized friend. All they wanna do is talk about politics. Well, if it was on Facebook, I'd unfriend him. Yeah. So do it for real. Yeah. I stopped hanging out with people Yeah. Like Yeah. Now now see people would not well, now they wanna come back at you, Dan, and say, look, your job as a Christ follower is to be friends with everybody and find a common ground and a common way to hang out with these people. Well, I don't have to hear your junk. Yeah. Dan says, I don't care what the gospel says. Whatever. I'm out.

I'll I'll throw you a few Jesus memes and you can throw me your political stuff. Yeah. I don't that is I don't think that's the that's the Christ it's not the Christ fellow followers' liability to otherwise, I don't know, present themselves to anything that you wanna talk about simply for the opportunity potentially ever talk to you about Jesus. Well, and I feel like you have massive examples from Jesus' life. Like, you don't see him standing around suffering fools for very long. Right? Like, he says, hey. You wanna follow me? Sell all your stuff. Wah. Wah. Wah. There he goes. You know what saying? He's not like, hey, come back. We need to talk more. You know, you don't hear him on every street corner talking about Herod. Yeah. He's talking about kingdom. Yeah. Exactly. So yeah. Yeah. And on top of the fact is I think we were just talking about this last week. I was talking about this last week with somebody. But, like, we were talking about when someone sins. Right? And and, like, you you go to talk to them and they're not buying it, you know. And then and then you bring two more dudes and they're still not having it. Then you drag them in front of the church and say, listen, you're doing this thing and and and we need to we're all heading the same direction here. What are doing with yourself? He's like, I don't care. I'm not gonna do it. And then the and then the the Bible says, and then treat him like a like a tax collector.

And then if you look at Jesus' life, he treats tax collectors pretty well. You know what He's super open to him. He's you know, he's he talks the gospel to him. He doesn't, swing by and kick him. And so, like, these people fall in the same category. Right? Like, you don't have to sit around and suffer fools. You still have to love them and want them to be part of the kingdom. But, like, it certainly does not obligate you to sit to get involved in their wheel of destruction. And if that's all they wanna do is is be mad all the time, that's generally what one way political conversations are. You're upset about something. They wanna be that's all they wanna be is upset. Yeah. You don't have any obligation as a Christ follower to participate. Zero. Two, my husband's lone my husband passed away two years ago and my self aggrandizing friend who wants to talk about politics will not discuss it with me. It says she's not much of a friend. Yeah. I mean, understand her world is upside down because Hillary didn't win. That's probably what what the situation is. Or whoever, it doesn't matter who.

Yeah. You gotta move on. Grow up, be a friend, or or this gal just needs to find friendship somewhere else because it's two years is enough to go. Yeah. Right. Yeah. There's there's legit there's legit

churches. There's legit programs. There's all kinds of people that that actually would love to talk to you about Right. And who've been there, who know what this feels like and whatever. That is real pain. Yeah. It is. It's it's not anything to laugh off and, like, you're just you're you're sourcing it out of the wrong bucket. Right? You're trying to get you're trying to get mop water out of a milk jug just so you don't have it to give you. So you should just ignore that. And and when your world turns upside down, you don't care about politics. You you're on the opposite end of the spectrum of this friend other friend. And that's all this, you know, other woman's in. So so, yeah, she's just going she's expecting too much from this. And and you can have a certain amount of grace for some folks like that. Like and and I noticed that, like, like, obviously, when we went overseas and and whatever and you go to a different country and you come back home and, like, people are talking about stuff, you're like, I just give a crap about what you're saying. Yeah. I I distinctly remember I was I spent a weekend with some family friends of ours that their their kid was in the hospital all weekend, and it was dicey whether this kid was gonna even come out of this thing. And then I show up at work the next the next Monday, and they're like, hey. This this thing broke up in Eastern Iowa, and you gotta get there. It's a big emergency. I'm like, you don't know what an emergency is. This is the stupidest thing to get geared up about. The air conditioner in my third car is just not working. Exactly. I'm really upset. They're like, we get they're they're hot, man. You gotta get up there and fix this thing. I'm like, you know, that kid died this weekend. I don't care about this stupid air conditioner. I feel like I wanna leave right now. You know? Yeah. And so, like, some of that's true with people who get wrapped up in politics. Like, it is important. It's not like we talked about that with the government thing from what I can understand of it anyway. Governments are important. I guess if if I'm gonna glean something off the top where the dummies live, like government

is is an institution set up by God and so there are it's it is of a level of importance but like, if that that's all the better they have to do with their time. That's all the better they're going to do. Okay. Before you read the next one Yeah. What you gotta do, secular, I guess? Yeah. What you said something, but this reminded me of something that happened this this past week. A friend was telling me about they were they were his friend and don't if it's wife or girlfriend. Both of these two are are divorced and they're together. And they visited a church for the first time and they're at this church like in Norwalk area. Yeah. And

they brought all these couples up to the front of the church and were kicking them out of the church publicly as of they were divorced or, you know, it was all marital issues. Couples looking at each other like, what?

Yeah. Yeah. That happened last last week. What? Wow. That's infuriating. Yeah. I I I was just like, are you are you sure you heard that right? He goes, no. Because he told said, make sure and tell Dan. This happened to us this week. Like, oh, okay. What? Yeah. That's how could you It just it makes me so sad. Now hold on hold on a minute. Maybe they've gone to them singly

and then they've gone to them with multiple people and said, look, you've got to do something about this. You're you're walking the wrong Yeah. We don't know the full story. You think I'm kicking them out tax collector style? I mean, how many people do here's the thing. It's like I just ran across this tonight where where where the couple has has split up and the guy's moving on, right, with with another gal who claims to follow Jesus, like all while abandoning his wife and x number of kids over in a corner. And I'm sitting there listening to the story going, how do you what sermons are you sitting through where your just conviction flies away? You know, where you're not going, crap. It doesn't matter what they're talking about. They're talking about me, and I'm a big jerk. And and and I'm just like, how could people continue to show up at the Lord's service every Sunday, listen to the to the the words coming out of the Bible, and and pray and not go, boy, you think they're talking about me? I feel like I should rectify this. And so maybe it's true. Maybe they're they're they're straight bible following. They they went to them and they took two guys and they brought them for the church and they're like, we don't care. We're gonna keep doing this. You know what? Get out. Get out. Here's here's what you're struggling with, Buva. The question is whether church is for believers.

If church is a community of believers, this is completely right behavior. Assuming my assuming from my perspective, right, that they followed the that they followed the normal thing? If yeah. But but but when because it is a public thing and you're you're you are open to people who are not Christians, it is like yelling at your kids or having family discussions in front of the neighborhood. Yeah. That's what it is. Which is why in Christians Paul says, hey, this is a public assembly. Stop doing some of this stuff. Yeah. And Yeah. I'm just I'm I'm just thinking about, like,

I'm imagining someone walking into that church the first time, like you said, and that being what they see. And, like, I I can't even imagine Especially when they're guilty of Right. Exactly. Their kicking can't imagine the distrust that would be that would be fostered in that situation of, like, not just just for the church, but for for believing in Jesus. Because, like, we are representatives of this faith. We are. And, like, people look at the things that we do and and that changes their opinions on Jesus. And it's wrong, but it happens. And, like, I wish people would see Jesus for who he is, not by his fallible followers, but, like, that just hurts me. Like There's probably gotta be a better way to do that. Because you're right, man. I mean, there there that is a scriptural thing. Yeah. Was gonna Assuming it's scriptural things, but how you do it has affected other people. And that that was the point I was, I was getting at is, like, is that, like, there's there's, yeah, there seems to be the the question is, do you have to do it in a public assembly? Is that is that actually the way to be handling some of those things? Now here's the deal. If that's your community, this this gets into big questions on, like, how big of community are we talking here? We got three services. I gotta kick them out in front of all three. Right. Can you come back for the second service so we we will re kick you out again?

So I think, like, the context of some of those things, like, I think the behavior can't go away, but the context is very much complicated by some of our the way our structure. Like, the way that we do things, I think it I think you have to recognize that those the the intent of the behavior was was accurate, but it was set in a culture of which they did things slightly differently. The the the the gatherings tended to be smaller. They tend to be in people's houses. Right? So you're not talking about public buildings where people are intentionally being invited into, come and see what this is, and then you're showing people what is ultimately prop could be proper behavior, but it's family business. It's it's like having kitchen table conversations on street corners with megaphones. Like, it's it's it's not the venue and the environment isn't right for it. Mhmm. But we but we got a lot of times, we throw, like, and I I don't know. Like, I haven't had to do this yet.

But, like, some of those church discipline issues, like, we're we're pansy ish. Like, we don't and we don't do things that like, we say, I know better than god in this situation. I'm gonna handle it differently. I will be more I will be softer than he is. And then and then you don't get to you know, we're not administering the church the way that we're supposed to. But, like, I I agree. I think if the environment I've never been in a situation where they stayed long enough to be in a public way. Usually, they'll leave Yeah. By the third meeting or something. They're like, okay. We're out. Yeah. Yeah. We're not gonna keep showing up. Who knows what happened behind the the scenes there? Yeah. Maybe it was a shock to all of them. Who who knows that? I mean, why would you show up if you knew was going on stage? Yeah. I'd be like, oh, I'm alright. I'm out. Once you saw adultereal John on his way up, and then all of a sudden you see divorced Patty who's, you know, screwing around with the neighbor and you're like, hey, I don't think I wanna go up there. Yeah. This is rough company. Shirt has a big a on it. Yeah. Boy, read the writing on the wall, friends. They're gonna they're gonna publicly slay you. You know what I'm saying? Boy, that is I mean yeah. Yeah. That would have been super weird. Yeah. Yeah. Super weird. Okay. I'm gonna hit you with the secular advice was about the politicized friend. Please accept my sympathy for the loss of your husband because you are still grieving, your friend is unable to help you cope with your sadness. It might help you to join a grief support group in which you can air those feelings with others who understand. Ditto. Do it. As As to your friendship with the troubled individual you wrote about, it might be healthier for you to step back for a time. You're not equipped to handle or help her handle her anxiety and depression. That's her therapist's job. Unless you can pry her off the topic of politics onto something more neutral, your time would be better spent with people who are better balanced.

Okay. Wanna do one more? Yeah. Do one more. Dear life from the path. I have one sister who is ten years my junior. I have always lived in a big city. She lives on a ranch near a small town. I'm widowed now and recently moved to another town to be near my son. On two occasions, my sister has come to help me with unpacking and has overruled many of my decisions regarding what I will keep or sell, where to put things, etcetera. What? When I object, she become emotional and left in a huff. She and her husband were coming to help again, but beforehand, she had already told my son how they were planning to get things done. Anytime there's even a hint of a problem, she calls my son and tells him about it, and obviously, only from her point of view. I'm afraid irreparable damage has been done to our relationship, and I don't know what to do. I have no other relatives. Please advise. Hey. You you misunderstand your situation. Here's the thing. You put a lot of eggs in this relative basket. I can make pretty good friends without him. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. If my cousin turns out to be real pile of dirt, Whatever. I'll just get another buddy. I don't owe that guy anything. I didn't tell his whatever dad to sleep with whatever his mom is. I had no control of this. Like, I'm tied to this man because we share some bloodlines. We all share bloodlines. Noah, you're taking this too far. Mike says you gotta know when to hold them, know when to fold them. Yeah. Yeah. No when to hold them. I mean, I just got here. You're gonna tell me what I can keep and what I can't keep. Get out my house.

Yeah. Yeah. I wouldn't say you you don't have irreparable damage. You you just stop inviting her over. Right. Yeah. If I've learned anything in the last ten years that his family is very easily chosen. It is okay to just go, hey. You're my family, but I don't think I wanna be around you anymore. Yeah. Or in this hyper specific instance, I don't want you to help me move. Right. Exactly. Yeah. No. It seems easy enough. You're you're being bossy and awful to me while I'm trying to do my own thing. Please stop showing up. Yeah. I can pay a movers. It shouldn't have happened more than once. Hey. I thought I brought you over to help. Hey. They weren't helpful. I won't invite them over again. Like, I don't ever invite someone to help me twice when they were unhelpful the first time. Well, I mean, you know how people get power in these situations when you give it to them. Right? When they're like, hey, you shouldn't keep this. And instead of laughing and going, you don't make any decisions here. You know I'm saying? Instead, you got upset about it. And you wanted to and you let them get, like, arouse a fight at you. I mean, what are you, like, five? You what I'm saying? People come over and say, hey. I don't think you should keep this china. Well, I don't think you live here. Well, then what kind of schmuck is the person that gets emotionally upset about you not throwing away a blender? Yeah. Really. It's like, gotta you gotta get rid this blender. I don't wanna get rid of rid of that blender. Why are you so bad to me? Yeah. Why why are we Excuse me. What? You're awful to me. I suggested that you get rid of this blender, and you said no. How dare you? Like, alright. You're right. Exactly. That should be a, hey. You need to get rid of this blender thing. I don't think I'm gonna get rid of that blender. Okay. Let's put this over here then. Yeah. What's next good?

Wow. Yeah. You gotta let you gotta you gotta stop letting people drag you around like that. I mean, there's there's there's time to take in good advice. If you're like, hey. Don't even tell me what you think of my stuff. That's a little bit different. But like, obviously, your your opinion does not equal the same weight as my opinion in my own home concerning things that I have purchased and purposely brought with me on the move. What was the why why why does it matter that she comes from this from the the farm? Was that was that supposed to help paint the story that she's Yeah. It's like a green acres. You know, it's just trying to it's trying to, get a setup for a good sitcom. She's a country dolard who doesn't know what to keep? I'm a I'm a country bumpkin, and if my sister's a city slicker, she'd come in and give me the bosses. My minimalist sister, she could showed up and took care of my hoarder. But is that is that the farmer girl that was throwing stuff away? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I had it flipped around. Okay. I'm gonna make sure. Big city big city wants to keep the stuff. Yeah. Yeah. Farmer farmer wants to chuck it. Alright. Weird. Secular's advice is, I'm sorry you are brokenhearted, but with time, your broken heart will heal. From your description of her, your sister appears to be overbearing and loose lipped. Unless you are willing to live according to her rules

yeah. Loose lipped. She'd like to run her gab. Unless you are willing to, live according to her rules, what you should do is hire someone to help you unpack and begin cultivating relationships outside the family. They're less high maintenance than one you have with your sister. If you do, I'm sure you'll be much happier. Is that a thing? You pay people like, I get you pay people to help you move, but, like, you pay people to help you unpack. You can pay people for anything. I am certain it exists. That seems like a very personal thing where, like, you're just I would just have to sit somewhere and they go, where do you want this? Where do you want this? Where do you want this? Yeah. Right. Like, I have any idea. If you would like the fellows from Life in the Path to show up and help you unpack your things you recently moved, give us a call in the complaint line. Yeah. We'll do it. I hope you move. I won't help you unpack. Oh, yeah. That sounds I mean, helping you unpack is literally like me taking fistfuls of your underpants, put them in my pocket, and carrying them around. You know what I'm saying? That was the weirdest No. It's it's not like that. It's exactly like that at all. Yes. It is. Yes. It is. That was awful. Have I worn them? Yeah. They're Why are you putting them in your pocket, you weirdo? Because

it's freaking creepy. That's how acquainted I am with your personal stuff when I start getting in the bat the boxes. Mike, I would trust you the box. I don't know what's in there. I would trust you to take my kitchen stuff and put it into the cupboards. No. I wouldn't. And I would never think that you would show up and be like, hey, booboo. I noticed that you bought the fruit of the room loom recently. I got the spatulas and your underpants. Check out that these are in my pocket. I would go, Mike, it is completely unacceptable for those to be in your pocket. Please leave my apartment now. It is exactly how I said it was. We've been friends for a decade. Please please leave. Yeah. That's just gonna happen if you ever do that, Mike. Those are your personal goods where you decide where do they go. Right? And so there's no reason to people Maybe there's some boxes that are off limits. I think it's okay to unpack their fine China. Well and and then there's this. Like, when we moved here, there was a bunch of gals in the kitchen helping them pack stuff, they all put stuff away where they thought it was cool. And Cheryl was just like, I haven't really had time to even think about this yet. They all left, and we just put it how we wanted it. I mean Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Nothing got hurt. Nobody got mad. There was just And nobody took underpants in their pocket, Mike. Everybody's in a bedroom. Single time did that happen. And here's the thing. When your per when that same person that helped you load the kitchen erroneously the first time shows up and says, hey. I'm gonna grab a cup of coffee. And they go to the cupboard, and the cups are already not there. They'll know that you disagreed with their decision and caused a rift. Now if they start moving stuff around, it's like, Now you've crossed the line. Yeah. I think it's better off just to you to handle all the unpacking. It's your home. Yeah. I agree. I mean, but you but your own personal choices that you I suppose you can make want to. Fistful Underpants. Call Fistful of Underpants moving and unpacking. (515) 517-0065.

That is awful. We do text as well. We prefer text. Please don't call us because we don't wanna hear that name. Hey. The acronym for fistful underpants is f f u. That's not good. We gotta get a new business name. Okay. I'll see what I can do. In the meantime, Kevin Lindgren will be on the show next week. He's got an a new album that he's working on, and he could use your help. And so he's going to tickle your fancy with some tunes and tell you why you should support it, and we'll give you that Kickstarter link, and you can help out. And I promise he's not a homeless man in cahoots with non homeless people to raise a lot of money incorrectly. Yeah.

Guarantee it. In the meantime, be faithful to me. It's got a little hand on the ends. You've been listening to Live From The Path.