Live from the Pathway Studios in Johnston proper. You are live from the Pathway Studios. Listening to you live from the path. We're coming from the Pathway Studios here at Johnston Proper. This is employee of the month, Mike Foust. How are guys doing? Hey, man. I feel like I was thrown out pretty quickly because not I'm not a level of of upper management, basically. Hey, man. Admin rights on the Facebook are dangerous. Hey.

It's you know what's funny? Is that it still shows up every every once in a while, I get a recommendation and it says, hey. Invite invite Buva to like your page. I'm like, what do you mean? He does not like life from the past? I've never liked this place. I don't know why I'm still here. It's been ten years. And so here's the thing. I think I remember asking you once. I'm like, Buva, you can't even go out and like the Facebook page? What the heck? Wait. Okay. Hold up, though. Is it my actual name or is it the fake John Boova that I created? No. It's your actual name. Really? It says you don't like it. No way. No. But he so I thought maybe it just picks random friends and maybe you just do like it and doesn't keep an eye on it. But I've never had to recommend me to suggest that Dan liked the page Yeah. Or Mike. Oh. I like the page, definitely. So it could very well be that we've been on the show for a decade and Hey, man. No. I like it. And Buma has not liked the page. I liked it a long time ago. Well, here's the deal. The the Facebook does not register it. Yeah. It says invite the man. However, on that topic, we did get

hey. And I swear to you, I did I had no influence on this. Did it happen? Get something for Yeah. The complaint line. Yes. Hello. This is Emma Foost. Oh. And I say that Mike Foost should be unemployed of the month. Yes. Yes. Thank you. Now to add some legitimacy to this,

she's been going so she got a phone. We got her a, like, a unconnected phone that's not connected to a network for Christmas. So, like, she could use it for school stuff and listen to music or whatever. And so she I got her the podcast app and she burned through all all of the 2,019 episodes and appears to be halfway through 2,018, a life in the path. Wow. Hey. I have caught her legit laughing at some of that stuff. Alright. And she still feels that I should be demoted from my employee of the month, though? Absolutely. Her reaction was she goes, dad, can I borrow your phone to contact the complaint line? Yes. I said, I can't that that that that was like wonderful. That's nepotistic. I can't do it. You know, you can borrow your mom's phone.

So that's what she did. Oh, man. That's fantastic. Hey, man. Me and that kid are gonna have to have a talk. Hey, Emma. Thanks for thanks for joining on the complaint Yeah, Emma. Hey, Riley. And burn and burn her through the back catalog. You're in my youth group, Emma. Why why have you turned on me so fast? You know, I I buy the candy. You know I'm the candy guy. Dang it. Alright. You lived your life from the past. Separate lives. Thanks for hanging out with us tonight. Here's what I got on the show. So here's here's the thing, if we of the sporadic nature of the program lately, we're just catching up with some big news, things that have gone on. And so by now, I assume that perhaps you've seen the the Facebook post by John Cooper Skillet reacting to worship leaders or prominent Christians that are leaving the faith. And so we were gonna kind of fly over that and then get some get some cold cut reactions. I saw a lot of interesting

reactions to it but we'll we'll run through the crowd, we'll see what you fellas think, if he he got the right tenor of this response. On that same line, I was I was I was scanning the news today and here's two things that jumped out at me that I was I'm very disappointed in and we can speak further on it why. Top on the Christian Post and I never get this guy's last name right but Tullian, did you he was the guy that he's, like, the grandson of Billy Graham

and was a pastor in in Florida, think. Anyway, he got he left, he got removed from the church or he volunteered, I don't remember which one it was, because he was having sexual relations with someone in the church. Don't do that. Right. Right? And so he left ministry like he should have. And it says,

here he is back in pulpit after scandal. Now, just like two articles down or three articles down, James McDonald hints at return to ministry to followers. You guys do you guys know James McDonald? No. Okay. I'll read a little bit of that article. He is the he was the the founder of Harvest Bible Church. Yeah. Like, wicked. Oh, man. I mean, not I mean, like, lots of money and and and horrible and and, I mean He has all the makings of a mob boss. Yeah. Really? Yes. Threatened murder, I mean Yeah. Like, not good. Not good he's returning to business. Guess it's ready for him to get back, though. It's been a couple weeks. A a bit Mark Driscoll's, like, some of the stuff that Driscoll was accused of, but, like, take that times 10. Yeah. Yeah. Driscoll's just like his small child Yes. Compared to what he said. So I think you should read we should do those two articles first and then the skillet thing because I think it's apropos. Okay. So, I should mention, I'm not exactly certain what the phrase apropos means. I was gonna ask, but I didn't wanna look like a dummy. Yeah. Yeah. Think think of the the the root word of appropriate. I was gonna say it's appropriate, isn't it? Yeah. Is it someone saying the word appropriate wrong? Sounds like a French dish. No. It's it's They lazin it.

Isn't it French? Is the question as to when when would I use apropos versus appropriate? Yes. Yeah. I can't speak to that. I used apropos because it makes you look smarter. Done. Done deal. Yep. Figured it's my sugar high. Wasn't understanding correctly. Khalifa. It also rhymes with some certain things that other things don't rhyme with. Alright. Back in pulpit after sex scandal, Julian insists sex with former congregants was not abuse. Yeah. That's what I would say. Jerk forever. Oh, he just wasn't sinful either at all. As he as he gets ready for the fall launch of the of his unaffiliated, Sanctuary Church in Palm Beach I'm gonna just stop right there. Okay. I'm usually, like, yeah, unaffiliated, that's the way. There's no reason to be tied down by a denomination and then I think no one wants to affiliate with you, that's why you're unaffiliated. Right. No one would pass you through whatever process goes, yeah, this guy should lead people. Yep. Nope. So you gotta fire up your own nondenominational. That's that's the problem.

People's general risk to nondenominational goes, hey, those are a bunch of wild westerns who don't wanna get caught under anything. Yeah. And legitimate guys who run nondenominational es are like, dude, this isn't true. And then Johnny Smokehouse comes along and you're like, well, crap. This is why we're dealing with this particular problem. Yeah. Right. Mhmm. Alright. As he gets ready to to launch of his unaffiliated The Sanctuary Church, Tullian, who was stripped of his preaching credentials in 2015 due to extramarital relations with his former congregants because they were all consensual and not an abuse of power. Yeah. That's the real problem. Right. Oh, for heaven's sakes. I'm mad at this article already. Yeah. Is it your wife? Well, it's yes. You're it's you're gone. You shouldn't be leading people or teaching people. The fact that it was oh, yeah. But they said it was alright? Right.

Oh. That's disgusting. Alright. Speaking through a spokesperson, why they gotta refer to by his last name? Tulian, 47, told the Palm Beach Post in a report Saturday hold on a second. Why would you have to speak through a spokesperson if it's on record on the Palm Beach Post? Sorry. In a report Saturday that his infidelity in 2015 was completely wrong, morally and ethically, but rejected claims that he used his role as a pastor to envigle the women into sexual relationships. What the I've never envigled a woman. I mean, I may have. Hold on. Heard the word envigle. Let me check.

Well, that's a legit word. Persuade, I've never heard that. I mean, I read a lot, fellas, and I take in a lot of interesting language. Right. Invigal is a new word for me. And just How many is that in a sentence this week? So it is to persuade someone to do something by means of deception or flattery. While we're on that, apropos is being both relevant and opportune and, appropriate is not one of its synonyms. Oh. Oops. It's the same I think it's the same root word, though. I'm just saying, on the list of synonyms, it is not on there. Appropriate was. Doesn't mean opportune. It just means whether it does fit. Apropos means that it's op it's also opportune to bring. Both relevant and opportune. That still seems like a synonym to me. Are you trying to invigle me? The English teachers are are ringing in on the complaint line. Yeah. They're hey. Yeah. Hit us up on the complaint line. Know how to use apropos. I I I once got in a Show us that you could spell it. In a continued, like, notes match, like, you know, you turn a paper into your English teacher and then they write something on it and then you can, like, respond back. I went three rounds with my one of my college professors Of course, you did. On the use of the word thrall as a verb or as an or as an I or as a was gonna say to thrall someone? Yeah. So if you're generally, you'll say it's in you're in thrall, meaning meaning you're, like,

overtaken by them, enamored with them, right? And so I I think I referred to someone as an office thrall which is the person who is obviously enamored with people to be yeah. Yeah. No. No. Not they they're not They're the one who Yes. That's right. They just find themselves enamored with other people which is a legit usage and we went back and forth on it for a long time. A long time. Anyway, complaint Hey, back to the article. Complaint line. Going back and forth in a time. Hold on. (515) 517-0085, if you wanna hit us up with the complaint line. We got this thing wrong. Alright. So, anyway, speaking of let's see. I don't care what role a person has, a consensual relationship between two adults is not abuse. When some of these people will try to make the case that, well, because you're in a position of authority, it's abuse and I'll go, okay, I can see how that has been and can be used by people in those positions but that was just not true for me. I was not abusing my authoritative

role to try and find women. Yeah. Again, it's not relevant. Like, the distinction Right. That's not the biggest Yeah. Hiding behind that. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. You're in a you're in a dolterer. Yeah. Yeah. The question isn't I mean, like, he specifically he's niched out the problem. Hey. I I I've met plenty of people that do this. You've got, like, a a a a very specific complaint about their behavior and what they do is they take half of it and they defend themselves against the half and never speak on the other half. Right. The truth is is that, like, yes, you're being accused of abusing your power as a pastor to otherwise have extramarital relations with people who are not your wife. I see, like, the problem that you're defending is, like, oh, well, it wasn't abuse. Yes. But it perhaps perhaps you could talk about that. But you still had relations with people who weren't your wife Yeah. And should not be leaving his church because of He has put razor blades into popcorn balls and and arguing that he did not poison the Kool Aid. Correct. You're right. Kool Aid was fine. Break it up. I get I see you have noticed what I did. Let me tell you what I didn't do. Yeah. I didn't kill the dogs. Yeah.

And I buy fair trade coffee. Yeah. For three seconds on what I guilt what I am guilty on. Put me back on the Let's really focus on what I'm not guilty on. Yeah. This maybe this is a non article. Now now here's the thing. I will do not construe this as defense of his behavior. Do think you gotta be careful with the word abuse. Yeah. I just do. Like, it's it has become a prominent word

of which it is it like, to describe all matter of, hey, I didn't people didn't treat me right. Well, he's not abusing the women, he's abusing the authority. That's right. His his authority was abused. Right? So, like, I I think he's defending himself against an allegation of abusing women. The question is, did you take advantage of your authority? Did you abuse your power to otherwise benefit? And, like, a lot of guy the guy this is this is a a pretty clear accusation against fellas in this in this era and they're like, oh, I didn't, it doesn't feel like that to them but they're not the they're the ones that are in power. Like, when you're in power, it doesn't feel like that to you. Right. And so but but, again, like, we've we've just I just I I understand his reaction to that word but the problem is by using such a word, you've allowed him to latch on to something that he she has no grounds to latch on to and defend himself against. It said he lost his job at Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church in Fort Lauderdale, well as his marriage to his ex wife Kim in the summer of two thousand five after they discovered an affair between him and a parishioner on the church's server.

He was well, hey, here's the deal. You shouldn't he's also an idiot. Yeah. He was he's using the church's computer. He was also deposed of pastoral credentials by the South Florida Presbyterian. He later confessed to another affair that resulted in his firing from Willow Creek Church in Winter Springs, Florida where he was hired after he left Coral Ridge. Two for two, buddy. Oh.

Let's see. Let's see we can hold on. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. Trying to see if he comes to talk about this. I I here's what I can't get past. It's it's the the the flat out arrogance of all of it. Right? Like like, when it comes to here's the thing, it's like, what what we know is that is that the death on the cross covers the grace for your sins. That is true. Right? When you have a proclivity towards a certain sin, if you are attempting to follow Christ with your life, then you do better than putting yourself in those situations over and over again. Right? If there's people that say, look, I have a tendency to be attracted to members of the opposite sex, obviously, when I am a pastor. You know what? For the good of God's kingdom and for the benefit of my walk with Christ, I will no longer be a pastor. There's not a benefit here. There's they're saying that, like, I this this is what keeps getting me into trouble. I've got to do better. And so, obviously, this part of my heart is still inclined towards this sin and, like, I can't willpower power my way out of it. And so the best I can do is figure out some fences and go, I'm I'm causing myself to sin. I'm bringing others with me. I've got to get out of this. Right? And that's a humble

attempt to follow Christ after you've screwed up, which everybody has. Everybody has made monumental screw ups in in in respect to God's character. And the continuing assertion that you get to go back to where you came from is is nothing more than a power play of your own kingdom. That that is that is all it is. Because if it was God's kingdom, you would go, obviously, I'm not suited here. Yes, I'm forgiven. Yes, I'm a child of God, but this is not the place for me. There's pragmatic approaches to the things in your life that you've done and the sin that that tends to grab you and putting himself in this position shows no fealty to King Jesus at all. Yeah. So, like, here's here's an example of a guy where, like, I I'm okay with you writing a book. Like, if in humility, you you would say this this situation, this is how I found my what I found myself in or what I pursued. Here's what it's like to return from that level of sin in this public of a way and to and to to to regrasp

at the ankle of Jesus and start trying to follow the path, I okay. Yeah. I think I think you could serve the kingdom in that way. Yeah. Tell me tell me that you've started a a a men's prison ministry. Tell me that's what you're doing. Right? Tell me that you're nowhere near women or or children or whatever. Tell me that you are are from now on, you're the men's pastor at Penn State Prison, and that's what you do. And I go, I get it. I get it. May maybe he maybe here's the deal is they're not looking at him as a pastor. He has the title, it's really a CEO. They're looking for a large church setting and and we have destroyed the pastorate through large churches partly because they're that's different criteria. You need it's a different gift set gift set. Right. You're willing to accept,

flaws in the biblical character of being a pastor because it comes someone may come with the skills of running a large organization. Right. Right. Yes. Well, actually, I didn't think of that. It's the fact that I'm I'm pinning this man and going, what's wrong with you and missing the rest of God's church that's hiring him. Right. That goes, hey, maybe this is not the best idea for you. Lock up your kids. Lock up your wives. This dude is now the pastor. This is the not this is a mistake. Yeah. The here's the thing, the church is yes, the church is led by led by sinners saved by grace. We we acknowledge this. This is, like, this is not the question. However, if the very one temptation for you and the destruction destruction of of either either the the faith, faith, communal relationships or community of a church is the thing that is tied directly to your behavior, your sin that has been saved by grace, disqualifies

you from leading people in that way. There's a million other ways to do it. There's a million other ways to faithfully follow Christ. There have guys that there have been people who've done some absolutely terrible things in this world who could faithfully follow Christ and walk in his grace and forgiveness but they're not pastoring churches. That's correct, right? And and and what's only reason that people like that don't wanna do it? It's because they don't wanna be the sheep in, sheep out guy. They wanna be the dude in front. They wanna be the guy that says or the guy that brings. And there are faithful people that love Jesus Christ that are digging your groceries and sacking them up and sending you out the door with a smile. And that's what they do their whole life. And and that's fine. It's god honoring and it's great and they don't need the spotlight of what it is that you're trying to do and it just it sounds so much that that it that it's a it's a It sounds like a people thing. Yes. Yeah. Heck, you wanna men here's the deal, you wanna mentor a dude. You wanna mentor pastors Mhmm. And say, I can teach you, like, this is where my skill sets were at. You wanna be a consultant? I don't care. I mean, plenty of viable ways to use gifts that God has given you even in light of your failure but not this. Yep. Not this. Not your face, not your sermons, not not your name on the billboard, no. He says, some people think that I should just shut up and crawl in a cave, that's a that's a straw man, that's not what we're saying. And never come out because I'm not qualified to be leading spiritually in any way because of everything that I went through and everything that I did. Again, it's a much more nuanced discussion than that. Other people champion it because they go, it's about time that churches are led by people who know what it feels like to, you know, fall on their face and be in the gutter. Yeah, that's the spiritual qualifications we're after. Unlike all those other perfect pastors. Yeah. Heck.

Although, I mean, I never heard Paul quite put it that way when he's talking about people who are leading the church, the qualities of a of a pastor. He's like, you know, find the guys who have fell on their face and in the gutter, specifically in the in the midst of harming their community and degrading their Let them be the husband of three or four wives. Yeah. That's the thing is we're is one some of the most the reason that that is ever championed, even without talking in a pastoral role, is so people can can can see more of the breadth of of the breadth and the depth and the width of God's grace. Because you can see that in its not in its entirety, but a way bigger scope from the gutter. Right? But if you're actually designing the gutter and you you put a bed there, then, yeah, you're not looking at God's grace at all. You're just looking at the gutter and saying, how can I make this gutter better? I know. I'll work somewhere else. That's that's not what that's designed to do. He says, in his message from Sunday, he argued that real Christianity is much more scandalous than most of us realize. I agree with that, actually. I wanna focus your attention this morning on Mark 10. Gonna read verses 17 to 22 and then also, I don't care about this, something about their series of blah blah blah. I I don't care, that's in fact, he's talking about Jesus. His very existence confronted and contradicted the religious establishment of his day, but but not but not the establishment of Yahweh's character and word of his day, you doofus. Yeah. And the thing that they that that he was what we have now as Christianity is what he was trying to promote against the religious leaders of the day. Right? He was trying to promote a grace filled, he is the temple existence.

And those were the things that Jesus was rallying against and the things he left for us. And now what he is saying is is because Jesus was anti whatever the establishment of the day, we should be anti establishment of our day. But, unfortunately, what's been established for us through Jesus and the apostles was what we have now, Right. The way that we're trying to run. Right. Right. He like, we are not we are not second temple Judaism Correct. Here. And he's he's he's actually, that's a really good point because that thought process shows up in a lot of a lot of pseudo Christian leader, discussion is, look how Jesus stood up against the authority of his day. What this that's not an apples to apples comparison. I think you can find niche discussions of where that makes sense but, like, we're we're talking about what what Paul's talking about law and grace, we're in the grace portion and so, like, if you're con if you're accusing the grace of not being gracious enough or not being liberal enough for your particular way of life, then, yes, flat out Jesus would disagree with you. Yes. He seems to think it was sufficient. Yeah. What he was fighting for is what he gave us and that's what we're trying to follow. Yeah. And you say that's not enough.

Said, near the end of his message, he veered into his own scandal and he said the following, I've been very open, upfront and honest, painfully and uncomfortably transparent about my life, completely coming off the rails in 2015. You didn't have a choice because they fig like, you didn't do that beforehand, you did that after people found it. So again, I I you can't take credit for that. And I still deal and I don't think it will ever fully go away. It's probably a gift to me, honestly, because it keeps me dependent on God. It makes me realize afresh that his grace is undeserved. He said, noting he was still struggling to get over it. I still deal with the level of guilt and shame and regret for how I hurt my family, and how I hurt my friends, and how I let people down back in 2015. I screwed up and people got hurt because of me and because of that, I still deal with, he said, tearing up and voice slightly cracking. It's like it happened yesterday when I think about the moment I set my three children down in my living room to tell them what I had done. And the look of their face and the words that came out of their mouth, I'll never ever forget. In my relationship with my kids, it has always been unbelievable, but I will never forget the ways in which I hurt them specifically, the ways in which I let other people down and hurt other people, the way that I betrayed my first wife and all those things. Okay. He noted, however, that because Jesus succeeded for me, I am free to fail without fearing that God will leave me or forsake me. True. God's love for me, God's acceptance of me, God's approval of me has nothing to do with me and has everything to do with what God in Christ has done on my behalf. I mean, again,

none of these We're that we're not talking that's the thing, it's like all those things are true for everybody's life, it does not that's not the same discussion as whether you should be leading people or not. Mhmm. It's the position of power that did cause you the problem. Yeah. Yes. Similarly, James McDonald hints a return to ministry to followers. Okay. Former Harvest Bible Chapel pastor James McDonald is signaling that he may soon be back in ministry. A long time pastor of the Chicago area megachurch who was ousted earlier this year after derogatory comments he made were played on the air of a local radio program. And following months of controversy over alleged financial malfeasance and an abusive church culture, posted a message Thursday in a Facebook group called Walk in the Word Partners according to independent journalist and radio broadcaster Julie Royce. A member of the closed group sent the message to Royce who shared it on her website Thursday, including screenshots. In the message he posted, McDonald noted that this year, he and his family have experienced great loss, that God was in control, and the truth will come to light in his time. We have prayed to practice our biblical teaching on love, and God has surely allowed us to be stretched. There's much we could say as, as so much is not at all what has been portrayed. But we look to the Lord for forgiveness where I did fail as a leader and for vindication of false statements that will not cover forever what others have done, he said.

Our broadcast partners are our family now, and we will be back soon with fresh messages from God's word, all free, all digital, all the time as promised. McDonald added that his children have found other places in ministry and that he and his wife, Kathy, are in good health. He also recounted that he met a man at a gas station in Wyoming who approached him to tell him to get back to preaching. Great days of triumph and victory always follow days of testing. We look forward to sharing with you in brand new ways all the Lord's been teaching us and what his calling is for us, he said. As the Christian Post reported previously, Roy's extensive investigation of the events at the church beginning in December with a World magazine report called Hard Times at Harvest is what eventually led to MacDonald being terminated from the church he founded over 30 ago. Prior to publication last year, Roy's was sued by the church as were two bloggers who since 2002 have been voicing their criticisms of McDonald, documenting issues related to HBC on a site called Elephant's Debt. The blogger's wives were also named in the lawsuit. So just hold on real quick. I will tell you because this didn't go into the detail that I expect. Thought maybe this would He's not really doing a church, he's just doing a digital thing. Yeah. That's not quite the same thing.

Unsaved remarks on health. Yeah. This is not very helpful. I thought this had had audio tape hold on. First report McDonald can be heard in the audio saying that Royce was off the rails and that in thirty days, she was going to be riding a tricycle with a midget on her shoulders. That's it? That was the derogatory thing he said? I don't even understand how that's offensive. Yeah. So I I I remember I'd read a bunch about it, like, accusations against him included, like,

like, he he may have tried to have somebody killed multiple people. Like someone dating his daughter or something. Yeah. He I mean, that's little overstuffed. And he had, like, a group of dudes around who were, like, his bodyguards and he, like, spit tons and tons of the church's money on his own crap, houses and vacations and all kinds of stuff. And he was Hundreds of thousands. Yeah. Like, was outrageous and, like, that he was extremely authoritarian, just not a not a wise or a good leader. You know, I'm not I I I listen to a lot of digital content, obviously, like through podcasts and whatever. I don't know that I find that inherently, mistrusting.

But like when you don't have the accountability to be a pastor of actual people, right, and you basically just get to say what you want and throw it out into the sphere and that just that doesn't seem like you're doing anything. I I mean, I could be wrong there, but, like, look at all the people that Paul wrote to. He knew them. Right? And by the way, I'm gonna come up back over there if you guys keep on doing this or remember when I baptized you guys or, you know, that kind of and, like, being able to just blurt out

God's word and not see its effect or help grow. I mean, you could sell it as, like, I so we just cast the seeds and this does the water and I don't have to pay attention because someone else is gonna water. And, like, I don't know. That doesn't feel like the structure that God set up at all. That's part of the whole superstar mentality that I don't need a church as long as I can just get the digital thing out there. I'm already a national name, brand. I mean, is that what kind of what you're saying? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Could be musicians, it could be preachers. I mean, it's it's some of the circuit bible teachers that do the video series and so forth and these these conferences, they became become these big heroes to us and, Yeah. I you know, it seems like if you're doing that, if you're producing that stuff

as well as being a pastor of actual people, I I I find that okay. It's not as big of a deal to me. But, like, if your only gig is to put out digital content Mhmm. And not be responsible for any of it. I don't know. That just doesn't seem as right to me. You know, that just I I don't know. And I could be wrong. That's just a changing of the times. Maybe I just don't like the traditional church model not being followed. I don't know, you know, but that seems odd to me. Yeah. The question is is, like, how do you liken that to say a traveling evangelist of which, like, Paul falls out and seems to have no problem with. Right. It's it's it's one of the gifts to the church and keeping it unified. People travel around and preach. And so I don't I don't know I don't I I think our technology kind of blurs that a bit. Mhmm. Because, like, that guy doesn't have any accountability. I used to have a really strong aversion to that, by the way. Like, I like, my my niche reaction was, like, there's no you have no connection, you have no ability to otherwise establish community, you're coming in, you're putting on a show and you're leaving. I think there's probably a 100, if not a thousand ways to do it wrong,

but that that doesn't mean there's not a way to do it right for people who, whose gig is to travel around and otherwise share good news to other people in unique ways, that that God has gifted them. I I think it's a good thing for the church and the same thing with how we think about modern day prophecy, same thing how we think about just some of the other things, gifts that that God gave the church. Just because it has been done wrong does not mean there's not

okay. Alright. So those are those are first two examples. Right? Okay. Alright. Now now this is this was posted there was another release, a guy from Hillsong, one of the the worship guy who was involved with worship at at Hillsong had been part of the album some of the albums and stuff and some of the songwriting, basically came out and said, I'm leaving. I'm I'm leaving Christianity. And this fell followed fast on the heels of that Josh Harris saying, hey, I'm out too. And so this was there was a post on Facebook from John Cooper from Skillet that got a lot of action so I'll read kind of some some major

parts of it. It says, okay, I'm saying it because it's too important not to. What is happening in Christianity? More and more of our outspoken leaders or influencers who are once faces of the faith are falling away. And at the same time, they're being very vocal and bold about it. Shockingly, they still wanna influence others for what purpose as they announce that they are leaving the faith. I'll state my conclusion, then I'll state some rebuttals to statements I've read by some of them. Firstly, I never judge people outside of my faith even if if they hate religion or Christianity. That's not my place and I have many friends who disagree with my religion and that is a 100% fine with me. However, when it comes to people within my faith, there must be a measure of loyalty, friendship, and accountability to each other and the word of God. My conclusion for the church, all of us Christians, we must stop making worship leaders and thought leaders or influencers or cool people or relevant people the most influential people in Christendom. Yes, that includes people like me. We are in a dangerous place when the church is looking to 20 year old worship singers as our source of truth. Now have a church culture that learns who God is from singing modern praise songs rather than from teachings of the word. Not being rude to my worship leader friends and saying that singers and musicians are good at communicating emotion and feeling. We create a moment and a vehicle for God to speak. However, singers are not always the best people to write solid bible truth and doctrine. Sometimes we are too young, too ignorant of scripture, too unaware or too unconcerned about the purity of scripture and the holiness of the god we are singing to. Frankly, I'd call that across the board. Let's say, even not just singing, right? Like, just how people are interacting with the word at all, like, it's alright to season up a bit. Okay, so I don't know, initially, agree,

disagree with his conclusion? Yeah, agree. I agree. Agree. Yeah yeah yeah yeah. Love it. I applaud it. Yeah, like, we've had I I think at its at its core and this kind of what we see that in some of the in some the articles we just talked about, right, is that influence is is kind of garnered or governed by your ability to make yourself known which means, hey, I show up on a bunch of worship albums. Songs are more prevalent than individual sermons, individual pastors and some of those the bigger dudes, right, have the have the the clout or the money to put themselves on on radio waves and podcasts and YouTube and

production videos or whatever and so by the very presence, it feels like they should have the influence and they get it simply because they're there. I mean, can we can we say with honesty though that, like, the ability to make yourself known has never been so accessible? That's right. Yes. Yes. I think that's true. Okay. Alright. Vubo Vubo, yeah? Yeah. You agree with that? Okay. A few specific thoughts and rebuttals to statements so, like, there's certain people who are disavowing the church and that he was trying to respond to some of the things that they've been saying. He says, first of all, that I'm stunned that the seemingly most important thing for these leaders who have lost their faith is to make such a bold new stance. People who have been in the faith for, you know, twenty years and led generations of people with my teachings and now I no longer believe it. Therefore, I'm gonna boldly and loudly tell people it was all wrong while I boldly and loudly lead people into my next truth. He says, I'm perplexed. Why aren't they embarrassed, humbled, ashamed, fearful, confused? Why be so eager to continue leading people when you clearly don't know where you are headed?

So I it's yeah, that is it goes back to that goes back to that Thulean conversation, right? Like, where you were wrong, what what causes someone to say, in recognition of me being wrong, I shall be so bold again and so quickly? Like, at the very least, I I I was so I was thinking about this and there is some relevancy to if, let's say, someone let let's put the shoe on a different foot. Someone was in Scientology, k, and they followed the Church of Scientology for ten years and then they figured out they said, look, you know what? This is not right. This is a fraud.

And they left and then immediately started saying, hey, man, look, I I need everybody who's following Scientology Scientology to know, look, figured this out. It's not right. We gotta get out of this thing. Would you support that? Yeah. Being honest. Yeah, I would. Yeah. Yeah. We we You probably would, right? We'd we'd applaud Yeah. We said it's true. Finally, they get it. That's right. So now someone the same people doing the same thing with Christianity, our reaction, just like John's here, would be like, hey, man, how could you be so bold as to drag people away when you obviously, you know, misled them for ten years? But I I would kind of expect people to do that. If they if they went through a process that said, look, I I this is a lie, I don't believe this anymore Or, actually, let's make the distinction. There's a distinction between this is a lie and I know it and I can tell you,

because I can prove it or I just don't think I believe this anymore. That's Yeah. The That needs to be the difference there because wouldn't that, Paul? Wasn't that pretty much exactly what he did? Like, went from, hey, I'm on my way to Damascus to, to imprison the followers of the way Yes. To beating, beating was it Ananias?

Oh, the yeah, the Yeah, then Yep. Three days later gets his sight back and then goes, hey Well, that's where he got it back from Ananias, yeah. Or, yeah, exactly, yeah, exactly, yeah. He met Jesus, he met Yeah. Jesus and and and now I have the truth and can prove it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's the thing, right? Like, so when if we believe beating Jesus changes everything and so, like, you should flip from a to b and it makes sense to do so, when someone bails on Christianity, I don't know that I that I find it un like, crazy for them to say, look, this was all wrong and this misled me. However, most of these situations aren't like that. There are people who are, like, like, soft fade away Right. And go, hey, I'm I'm not sure. Yeah. They move to agnostic. My relationship with God, not from the conventional wisdom that I've heard from the church but kind of in my own odyssey of understanding. Yeah. And so it's Like, what? If your actual faith at this point is is very very nebulous, then, yeah, why would you wanna lead people into your nebulosity? I'm not sure where I'm going but I know I'm not staying where I'm at. Yeah. It's like that. I'd like you to go with me. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Come with me to being in a place where I don't know where we're going. So actually, once again, I I feel like this is some of this is actually just just a social media problem. Right? Like, it goes it goes back to those passive aggressive memes that people post. Right? Yeah. They post like this passive aggressive meme and everybody that reads it goes, is this about me? Hey. Is this about me? Am I the gentleman in the Right. So, like, e even if I was just to make an statement,

like, I I I don't know. Like, it it's it's just the way that things are are are broadcast and taken in is a passive aggressive meme about one person. You some guy will post, even though it's only about one guy, they'll post it to everybody. And then 400 people are like, are they talking about me? What's going on? You know? And so, like, the intention, you know, e even if you say, hey, listen. I'm I'm I just feel like I'm I'm backing out of this thing. And and just for you posting, it seems like you're trying to fish everybody else out of it and take them with you merely because you said something. Now, being a public figure like they are, I suppose that that means you have a wider audience and everything you post is saying, hey, everyone listen to me. Right? That's what Facebook is. I said a thing, I want everyone to listen to it. And so no matter what you post, you're trying to fish everybody to believe what you're believing at the time. Yeah. And so it's just it's just the the way that social media works and it just now, I'm not saying that they're doing this right or doing this wrong, it's just saying no matter how they announce it, if it's on social media, it's it's gonna be taken poorly. It's just gonna be taken in poorly. Yeah. And and I think, that goes back to the earlier point, Dan was making about kind of pastors' expectations in church sizes. Maybe that this type of platform from the church is not even a

maybe we've we've created a an inability for people to actually function in these type of roles. Right? Like, sets an expectation that can't be done. Young people with certain type of talent or even old people with certain type of talent who who just are not capable of handling influence of 40,000 people who listen to everything they say or a million people that listen to the things that they say, like, maybe you shouldn't speak. And I think that that if there's a wisdom in the church, it's that. Like, if if you're not in the position, like, if you can't handle the level of influence that you have, give it up. It's fine to give it up. It's not you didn't the Kingdom didn't lose because you gave up influence that you were gonna misuse. Mhmm. It was false. You didn't lose anything. The kingdom didn't lose anything because we didn't have it because somebody was the influence you had was going to be misused. It's not a risk. Go give it up. If you cannot handle it, just give it up. He said, second thought, why do people act like being real covers a multitude of sins? So this is referring to a lot of people who leave it say, look, I just I finally need to get to the to tell the truth. We I we kinda got that same vibe. Remember that Dave Gas, the ex evangelical guy who was the pastor who didn't didn't bother to mention that he was actually cheating on his wife Right. At the time? He just said, oh, I I don't believe in Jesus anymore.

Not that I I actually handle myself terribly. So but people act like being real covers a multitude of sins as if someone is courageous simply for sharing virally every thought of dark place. That's not courageous, it's cavalier. Have they considered the ramifications as if they are the harbingers of truth saying, I used to think one way and practice and preach it but now I've learned all the new truth and will start practicing and preaching it. So the influencers become the voice for truth in whatever stage of life and whatever evolution takes place in their thinking. I I that's the statement that I really liked is that's not courageous, it's cavalier. Mhmm. Like, that's the big thing is to is to is to be truth. Here's the honest thing about me. Here's the thing I did. Doesn't matter what dark thing happened or whatever you did, as long as you're being honest about it. And, like, I I gotta be honest. I I kinda feel that way some of the time. Like, I'm like, look, I I I tell my kids that. Right? I don't care what you did. Just tell me the truth about it so we can so we can deal with it. Right? But, like, if you're if if if all you do is proclaim all the bad stuff you all done, right, to everybody to everybody that could ever hear it, everybody needs to know how how self deprecating I am. Everybody needs to know how humble I am. Everybody needs all this. You've missed humility in it. Right. Right? You've missed it for the glorification

of your crappiness. Right? You're like, hey, you guys can all relate to me because we're all crappy. Okay. Well, here's the thing, friend, is that doesn't help anybody do anything but make you feel like you're in a group of crappy people. Yeah. Right? You're not encouraging them out of it. You're not explaining, like, like, all the all the ways that this thing can turn around or, like, how God grabbed you and pointed you to a new thing. If you never moved off the old thing, doesn't matter where God pointed you, you didn't go. Right. Confession there. Confession without repentance is not is not the the right way to do this. Just just naturally saying something that's truthful doesn't mean Correct. You have to exactly like you said, you have to turn away and you have to you've run. Do that one eighty and run. Find yourself repenting of that of that behavior or that sin or whatever it is, and then find yourself getting back to the will of God rather than just saying, man, I sucked at that. Well, see you. The thing is is like and

Christianity's always been this. Right? And Jesus was this. Like like, it it's there's there's words and actions and they have to couple themselves and the actions frankly always speak louder than the words. And and and social media posts and influencers, they're all words. That's all they are. Right? And or or they're photo ops of the action that you did, you know? Hey, catch me doing this so I can tell other people about it. And, like, it's I don't know. You know, that's what that's what hurts me when it comes to these kind of stories of somebody, leaving the faith or moving away from the faith or redefining their faith or something like that. We find out it's something like there's a lot of unrepentant sin, you know, unconfessed sin in their life, and it's just like you look at it at least I look at it two ways. Like, you either have you have two options. You either repent of that sin, you confess it, you walk away, and you do the hard thing that is confession. And you do the hard thing that is repentance, and you do the hard thing that is moving away from that thing. And then you find yourself in the joy and peace of the fact that Christ does not call you to shackles. It's an amazing feeling. Or you decide, well, I'm just gonna walk away from my faith because the conviction of being called out for my sin by the holy spirit in my life, I can't do that hard thing. So I'm just gonna redefine my faith because I really don't like what sitting sitting here with my heart hurting, and I don't like sitting here in my own muck and then and then running to Jesus about it. And you're missing that. You're missing the redemptive opportunity and the redemptive properties that is the relationship with Christ, like that that opportunity for you to get out of the muck and out of the mire, and the holy spirit calls you for your good. You aren't convicted because you're supposed to feel guilty. You're convicted because you're sitting in your own shackles, and there's work to be done for the kingdom. Stop running away from it. Man up, own up, confess, repent, get right with God, and get back on the path because there's work to be done. There's harvest to be done. I I mean, tell tell me that that doesn't apply

as when when he's talking about you doing good works and saying, don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. Right? Can can confession not in that same thought process fall into the same category? I I confess to, like, three dudes. Right? And I frankly, you guys make up those three dudes. So there's not there's not really much Yeah. Of I've been telling everybody. Yeah. Oh, crap. I thought You know I'm saying? Like, I don't I don't announce to the world, hey, guess all this stuff I'm struggling with. Guess what I screwed up? Know me, everybody. I that's a self glorification thing even at your worst. Right. Exactly. Know me at my worst but you're still saying no me. Yeah. Look how courageous I am for telling you what I did wrong. Correct. Wait. It's hey. I was reading this today. I was reading Psalm 34 today and, like, even it's it's this this disconnect between

thoughts and words and actions is not a biblical concept. It just isn't. Like, even even Psalm 34, David says, come, oh, children, listen to me. I will teach you the fear of the Lord. And you're like, oh, yeah, I'm supposed to fear the Lord. And so what do we do? I think in my mind, I am afraid of the Lord. Right? Like or, like or I will be respectful and bow my head and take off my hat when the Lord's name is said so that I will show that I fear. But that isn't how David doesn't go, think it real hard, feel it in your gut. He says, what man is there who desires life and loves many days that he may see good? This is how you this is how you what the fear of the Lord is. Keep your tongue from evil and your lips from speaking deceit. Turn away from evil and do good. Seek peace and pursue it. David seems to think that the fear of the Lord means you stop saying evil things. You you seek peace and pursue He seems to think that, like, it is a it is a thought process that get expressed in the only way that you are capable of expressing things because you are a physical human, which means you're gonna do it with your fingers and your mouth and your and your elbows and your feet. And so, like, this thought to say, I am brave because I said the thing,

but then never did anything in reaction to it. And and that's that's e even disregarding the point that, like, your level of influence in pointing people in some sort of religious relationship should not be subject to the, like, the the ups and downs of your temporal reality. Right? Like, just because you felt something doesn't mean it's valid and here's the thing is that, like, there's a reason I don't I don't speak stuff out loud right as I feel it. I give it some time. I think through it, I'll pray through it, I'll talk through it, people and then maybe I feel differently six hours later and then what good would I have done to go out and say, you know what? My relationship with my wife is really terrible. She's a real beast. And then I've then I I spend time talking to Mike or I I pray on the thing and I read the script, this happened to me, I did not call my wife a beast but, like, but, like, we we had got in just, like, minor gifts, most like, for a good portion of a day and I was getting ready, I was I was studying for a to to teach something on Sunday and I'm I'm, like, I'm an hour and a half into looking at this and, like, I've handled this poorly. Scripture is rightly pointing out to me that I've not handled my relationship with my wife well today.

And so I had to reach out to my wife and say, hey, this was my reaction was totally unjustified. We probably still have something to talk about, like, whatever we were talking about seems like two people that disagree on something and there's probably something there and so we should keep working on it. But, like, my reaction was totally not justified and, and I apologize for Because scripture doesn't just say, hey, it should come to your mind that you treated your wife in a way that you probably shouldn't. It should otherwise cause you to say, hey, I'm going to change that. I'm going to apologize. I'm gonna turn from my behavior and seek to do better because because our what we believe is a real thing. It's not a fake thing in your mind. It's it requires me to to hear it, to think it, to know it, and then to do something with it. And so, like and it's that that it's it's it's the aversion, it's just crazy reformation. God bless him for some of the good things that came out of it. But, like, this aversion of of faith and works got got so driven hard that people are so afraid to say, look, you actually have to do something. It means your life changes. It means something differs from what you do. And, like, and this and so going back to the kind of the core point he was making which is, hey,

it's not brave just to go out and say, I'm thinking something a little bit differently right now. Really? Like, if you would have said, here's all the things that I believe, here's all the actions I took because of my belief, I did all of these things and now my physical reaction has changed, I'm doing something differently, I'll listen to that conversation. But, like, right now, I just feel like the church isn't doing x y or z or I'm not feeling the spirit or some other business. Like, I'm out. I'm out. That's not you're not talking about real things to me. Oh, and that just made me think of of, you know, the verse in John 14. It's the whoever is my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me, and he who loves me will be loved by my father. I will be, I will love him, manifest myself to him. But I think about that as the concept that, like, it's the same thing as that statement in in the Psalm is, you can say you love God all you want. You can you can say, you know, I love you father, all these different things, but, like, God seems to and Jesus calls out the fact that you love him, you'll keep his commandments. The obedience in what he calls out is good is showing him you love him. You can't just say the words and then expect that to mean something. Right. You need to back it up with what you're saying, especially when it comes to love and especially when it comes to to the wisdom that you can have through Christ. Like, those things come with actionable items

and proof through that action. And so I I maybe going back to the other two articles then, is that, like, hey, just because you went through this and just because it was real and you went through sort a sinful time in your life and the the the love and grace of God is is still available to you, I mean, I don't know that that means that, like, that has to be exposed to everybody. Mhmm. Like, that that, hey, you gotta you gotta bleed on a page and sell it for $800 at an art fair. Like, there's just nothing that says, hey, every reality needs to be put in a position of power. Mhmm. It's just it's just that that isn't the thing. You you to Mike's point, like, to the extent that you suffer with certain proclivities, if they're of the sexual nature, if they're the violent nature, if they're of the drug nature, like, whatever it is, if the Lord has rescued from that, great. You are in a perfect position to go help people struggle with the same problem in in some kind of confined area of which you do not otherwise expose yourself to that same risk. Self imposed. You should put yourself there. Yes. I want it. Yeah. That's what I want. This is where I can serve. This is what I can do. This will keep me out of trouble. This is how I could follow Jesus. This is what I'm gonna do and pray on it and have the lord back it up and go, yes. I will start a men's prison ministry because this is what I am capable of doing without causing trouble. I was gonna say I would caution and make sure that's the most important piece at the end there is ask the god Yeah. Ask the god of the universe on this whole thing and, like, just just because something is wrong, I wouldn't I wouldn't just make a ministry. Okay. So so ask a question. Because ask either one of those fellows and what they'll say is the spirit is leading me back into ministry. Right. Is there any way that the spirit would do that? No. Not in those examples. Yeah. I don't Because they're kinda here's the deal, God's character is consistent. Scripture would otherwise I I believe that Scripture would otherwise say that those fellows are not qualified to continue.

Mhmm. Like And they become qualified? No. There's no possibility of redemption back to a qualification? They they are redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus for forever work in his kingdom, not that. I makes no distinction. He makes no qualification that says once you're disqualified from that. I don't see it, Dan. I I agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. It's really harsh and and unpopular, but I agree with you. Yeah. Yeah. And I here's the deal. I have no lick of problem with that at all.

I have no reason to have a problem with that. Because What about God's character caused me to go, you're being too harsh on this, Lord? Well here's the truth of the matter is is because if you're viewing sin correctly, you should have died for that. The punishment for the sin is the death, Right? And you're saying you're just saying not you're not saying thank you for not killing me. You're saying, put me back to where I came from. I deserve that. No. What you deserve was the death, and what you got was the grace. And what you got is a still invitation to a kingdom. But what you also got is not the ability to lead people down the same path you were running. You got the grace. You got the best gift that's ever possible. And what you're saying is, it's not good enough. I want back what I had. What? You threw away what you had. And I can't logically let you do it. You're gonna drag other people down with you. You've shown no repentance at all.

God's character does not seem it's it's it supports a small, view of grace. When you say, hey, can they not qualify themselves back up to ministry? No. Well, that sucks. No. They're alive. They have grace. They're still in the kingdom. God still loves them. God still says, it's available for you to accept my grace. He didn't kick you out of paradise, and you say, that's not enough. Give me my pulpit back so people can worship me. That's what they're saying. Juggle with that, booba? Yep. Yeah. Absolutely. What about it? I'm I'm not gonna, be able to speak on anything from there. I did I just gotta think about some stuff. Fair enough. So I'm not gonna try and make a fool of myself and try. Okay.

So when when the shepherd has been rolling around with the wolves and getting all bloodied up and and messed up, it affects the sheep. I they're not telling us in the story of these these pastors who had sexual relations and adulteries, you know, relations and then kicked out of churches. I wonder how many divorces happened in the next two years at those churches. I wonder how many affairs happened in the next two years because a guy said, well, hey, Joe did it.

I mean, they may not consciously say that but they have I've never seen it not happen. Right. Never seen it not happen. Yeah. It's forgivable. Sin that are real consequences here. Yeah. He didn't even lose anything. Race, there are consequences. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I would say, I suppose, two things that are rolling around in my mind at the moment is that, like, do I think like, again, is God is God well aware that he's got fallible people in the pastures? Of course. Sure. Of course. Do I believe that people can come from a a non Jesus following lifestyle,

learn from that and become pastors and are qualified to do so even for all the things that happened in the past. Yes, I do. Yes, I do. It is it is specifically talking about people who have taken on that calling of God and then and then jacked it. That's where I've that's that's where I I I just don't see their path. I mean, it's not up to me, certainly. But, I mean, if if someone asked my biblical counsel on the matter, I just I well, I and I think that's where the that's where the caution gets gets iffy, right? It's because the Holy Spirit is the Holy Spirit. And when people say, the Holy Spirit's leading me back to this, who are you to say no? Where you look like the the the bible stodgy man and you don't have anything, actually, to point it to? You have some. I mean, you could make a great case for it.

But that that's where I actually we I've talked about this this week in in in Ephesians chapter four, right, he's talking and Paul's talking about they're not don't think of it as offices of the church but he's talking about gifts that were given to the church in as as far as, like, roles and responsibilities to certain people, otherwise, help maintain the unity of the church. And it's path it's preachers and teachers, or shepherds and, evangelists and prophets. And, one of the things, like so that's it's that very thing, like, the spirit is telling me to do x y z. And we've gotten so

worried about or concerned about people who say the spirits told me to do this because we see things like this and we're, like, how how in the heck? Or, like, or the book by Jesus Calling, right? Like like someone says, oh, like, god told me this and, like, there's things that aren't other we we otherwise would look at and say, hey, this is a new revelation when, otherwise, we we we thought we had a scripture that everyone kind of agreed this is the thing we're supposed to use and now, like, new scripture is being written somewhere else and we have to buy the book to be able to take it in. And so the thing is the the the question isn't whether God still sends messages through people. I feel like the that gift of prophecy, like, does God still interact with people? I think he does. I think he answers prayer, either on someone's behalf or someone else's behalf. I I have no reason to believe that that is not continually continuing to happen. However,

how do I know that it is consistent with the character of God? Well, I have a pretty a pretty solid biography on the character of God. The question is is, like, why would God reveal his character in this way and then, otherwise, tell somebody else something completely different and leave them on their own? Scripture has been a pretty unified story up to this point. Why would this guy's life be the thing that disunifies everything? And so that that's he has given us the ability to otherwise measure it against what is God saying through other people and through Scripture so,

I suppose that's the question, right? Like, I don't think you have to throw out everything and say, the spirit doesn't speak, that's goofy. But does the spirit speak counter to the character of God? No. Well And and once again, like, if we're preparing if if we're comparing apples to apples, what we're saying is is that, like, yes, you can still evangelize. Yes, you can still lead people to know this grace that you found. You just can't do it where you're a predator. Right? Where you have a known you have a known proclivity to sin in this way. If at this in this situation, you can't do this at the men's prison. You just can't. Right? Your your proclivity to to to have affairs with women ain't gonna happen at the dude's prison. But that's not what you want.

Right? You want to be able to be put in back back at this position of power and the ability to do this again if you choose to, where where Paul puts himself in the shackles on purpose and says, hey, I'm I'm cloaked to a guy. Let's talk to him. Right? And but that's not what you're asking. You're not saying God what you want. You're saying, here's what I want. And only a sinful guy who intends to sin again puts himself back in a bar if he's an alcoholic. He knows better. He knows he's not supposed to be in there, and yet he goes because he knows he's gonna drink when he gets in there. He doesn't think I can pull this off. This will be fine. He's he's lying to himself, and he goes in anyway. The guy that knows he's an alcoholic, don't go in bars. The guy that has had that cheats with parishioners, don't lead parishioners or at least gets himself an old dude following or something. Right? You can still talk about the grace of Jesus Christ without that platform that you used to have. You can talk about it on any platform and you're demanding your old one. That's where it seems disingenuous.

He says, and lastly, most shocking in my opinion, as these influencers disavow their faith, they always end their statements with their new insights. Oh, wait. Oh, sorry. He said, thirdly, there's a common thread running through these leader influencers that basically says no one else is talking about the real stuff. Because this is actually, that that also consistently true. Hey. I'm tired of the church not talking about the real things that people deal with. He says this is flat just flatly false. I just read today in a renowned worship leader statement, how could a god of love send people to hell? No one talks about it. As if he is the first person to ask this, brother, you are not that unique. The church has wrestled with this for fifteen hundred years, literally. Everybody talks about it. Children talk about it in Sunday school. There's like a billion books written on the topic. Just because you don't get the answer you want doesn't mean that we are unwilling to wrestle with it. We wrestle with scripture until we are transformed by the renewing of our minds. I I I think that was super strong. Yeah. I think it's it's it really is that the church has got a bad rep from people who don't like their answers. Mhmm. But it's it's not true that we don't talk about that. I hate to say this, that's pretty impressive for a musician. Oh, yeah? They're not known for theology. They're they're known for know? Oh, he even said himself emotion. Yeah. And he had he had some solid stuff. Yeah.

And then he says, and lastly, most shocking in my opinion, these influencers disavow their faith. He always end their statements with their new insight, new truth, in quotes, that is basically a regurgitation of Jesus' words. It's truly bizarre and ironic. They'll say, I'm just disavowing my faith but remember, love people, be generous, forgive others. Others. Why? That is actually not human nature. No child is ever born and says, I just wanna love others before loving myself. I wanna turn the other cheek. I wanna give my money away to others in need. Those are bible principles taught by a prophet priest king of kings who wants us to live by a higher standard, which is not an earthly standard, but rather the kingdom of God standard. Therefore, if Jesus is not the truth and if the word of God is not absolute, then by preaching Jesus' teaching, you are endorsing the words of a madman. A lunatic who said, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the father except through me. He also said he was alive before Abraham and to see him was to see God because he was one with God. So why then would a disavowed Christian leader promote that generosity is good? How would you know what is good without Jesus' teachings? And will your ideas of what is good be different from year to year based on your experience, culture trends, popular opinion and, furthermore, we continue year by year to lead others into your idea of goodness even though it is not absolute. Now, here's the thing, here's where he's left himself open for a little bit of qualm is that, like, is it possible? Is there any definition of morality? Do people maintain definitions of morality outside of Jesus? Yes, the answer is yes. They most certainly do. Are there some of those things that are consistent with the teaching of Jesus? Yes. Except for the foundation is wrong. The foundation is not true.

And so, like, you I think you can find some quibbles in here but the core point of, not whether there is a moral standard but is it or is it not good, that is the is the right point which is without how do we how do we find what is or what is not good if people have differing standards of good? Hey, I think you people should only marry one person and should only have relations with them and then some other guy goes, I think it's totally fine to have relations with multiple people and I think it's good. How do we Who is the arbiter of good? Mhmm. And and it's correct to say, I believe God is the arbiter of good and so we submit to his his notion of good. If we take human notion of what is or is not good, then you'll never actually arrive on a universal understanding of what is good because people think different things. So

the the reaction, he says, it's time for the church to rediscover the preeminence of the word and to value the teaching of the word. We need to value truth over feeling, truth over emotion. What we are seeing now is a result of the church raising up influencers who do not supremely value truth, have led a generation who also do not believe in the supremacy of truth. Now the those disavowed leaders are proudly still leading and influencing boldly away from the I think that kind of sums up what we've been talking about so far. There there's just a reality to the things that otherwise, of who Jesus is, types of life that he calls us to, the understanding of God's supremacy, the, like, all those things and to the extent that you submit to those things in faith, whatever the outcome is, at least you're dealing in truth.

But if you're gonna reject those things, the very notion of you saying, wait, what I what God said was actually not true, then you're no longer a pastor of his word anyway. That's not you, like, like, you're not even leading a church. You're leading something else. And so, how do we know what's true? Well, we've word is true. The word is true. How do I know that that some something that somebody gets from the the Holy Spirit is true? It's consistent. I it doesn't have to be specifically the same. I feel like, you know, the spirit can intervene and say, want you to do this specific thing and as long as it otherwise isn't, hey, I want you to murder this guy,

then it's probably fine. But what I'm saying is, like, I do expect God's character acting system. Yep. Let's see. That was that was basically it. So what what Mike, we feel like he properly addresses the other two fellows? Yeah. I think that he does. I yeah. Here's

here's where I struggle. It's like I'm a one I'm a one trick pony here. Right? Like, I see people see problems within Christianity and I just see them exacerbated because of social media. That's it. That's what I see. I see that the problem that always existed and just didn't have the opportunity to talk to 50,000 people all at once. And so and so, like, it's just a different way to communicate. And and I I don't know if this is just notched out in my brain because I use social media. Right? But, like, it just seems that people who wanted to go off the deep end didn't didn't have the opportunity to slap a thousand people with a flyswatter before they did it. Right? They went off the deep end or they decided to do something different with their lives and their their core group of people, their close friends, their family, whatever, they knew about it and they dealt with it and they were trying to be like, yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah. I I see what you're doing or we can help or all this stuff, you know? But instead, people decide, I'm doing something and that is important enough to tell a 100,000 people and because I'm important. They need to know what I'm knowing. They need to hear what I'm saying. Right? And and it's like this innate thing that says, I am so important that these updates in my life have to go to everybody. I gotta tell everybody everything I'm doing. And it just seems so self centered and, like like, we look at it and we're, yeah, this is great. We have a community and we're doing all this stuff and we don't. We just have we've we've created a bunch of individual soap boxes. People aren't getting together on social media, they're just trying to stand taller than everybody else. Every time someone else stands tall, they get a taller soapbox and then they do it. And you're like, what? You're talking at me. You're talking at a 100,000 people, not with a 100,000 people. Let's say you did find the new truth. Let's say that you left Christianity cause you thought cabalism or whatever was the new thing. Yep. Right? You you have no you have no investment in me in me meeting cabala,

right, or whatever it is. You know what I'm saying? You have no investment in that. You just threw out a a a statement and said, this is what I'm doing. Like, that should be enough because you're doing it, I should do it. Well, you think pretty highly of yourself, don't you? Just because you made a decision to go to Taco John's, I gotta go to Taco John's. It doesn't work that way. You want me to go to Taco John's? Why don't you invite me? Why don't you take me with you? Why don't you talk me into it? Why don't you tell me the great things about Taco John? But no, you're saying simply because I'm going to Taco John's means Taco John's is the only place to eat at. And, like, man, I mean, even in the Christian even in Christianity, that's bold. That's bold to think that even if what you're saying about Jesus is true, the fact that you're saying it, you feel like that should be enough because you're the guy that's saying it. Right? You're a celebrity. That's not to God's glory and your joy. That's to your glory and your joy. And maybe the kingdom will grab some folks, maybe. Right? But that wasn't your that wasn't your right foot. That wasn't the lead. The lead was, I'm saying it because I'm important and I'm great in Christianity. Right? That's still a measure of you. Yeah. I, I was on on some Facebook group, a little marketing group. I can't remember which one it was. And and someone had asked a question about they were assigned to create the pastor's website, which is separate from the church website. And they wanted other people's examples. I'm surprised of all these people throwing these examples on there. And I thought,

I don't know that I've ever thought that I needed my own website. Right. Right. Yeah. You know, it's like Dan Hudson ministries dot com. Yeah. Yeah. It just kinda smelled bad to me. You you know, I mean, I I guess I get it if you're, you know, one of the big guys that everybody follows, then you get kicked out of a church and then they still have your website going, I guess. But I we all wanna be celebrities. You know, whether we're a celebrity of a 100 or or a 100,000, we all wanna have that. And and so if I have a website, I can reach more people for me.

And and, ah, it just didn't smell good to me. Yeah. What bothers me? Help me, fellas, because I've got to get over this because I'm imposing it on my own children, really. Like, what bothers me so much about social media in the way that it exists? It seems like a bunch of people screaming for attention. Well, it's it's it's unearned influence regardless of regardless of whether it's positive or negative. It is the ability there's a sense of authority to speak into somebody's life that otherwise shouldn't have it.

Right? Like because because all those relationships are non contextual. They don't know, I don't know anything about you but that you like me. Yes. That's it, that's all I know. And, like, they don't know anything about me except for that I'm a I I play a mean guitar and somehow that has given me the ability influence life or on the or on the negative side, right, like, people have the ability to otherwise drag me into conversations in such a way that I wouldn't otherwise engage in with people who, like, I might not spend a bunch of time arguing with and the presumption is that the playing field is equal.

And so it it is a I think the notion of them being they're not false relationships because they are relationships, right? They they they exist but they don't exist in the way that people can actually be known and they're and they've redefined what it is to be known, like, I am known the the the social media belief of being known is me I've I I've got to say everything that I believe or that I feel but that's not you being known because you could be lying, not intentionally, like, you know, or or misrepresenting what's going on. It doesn't sit in the context of everything that you're talking about. And so, like, this guy's going through, like, the the the worship leader with Hillsong or, you know, some of the other people that are leaving, like, there's a context to their life but they're choosing what to say and most people will never know the difference and that is just what we're gonna have to deal with and, like, it then affirms people who say, oh, this kind of sounds like me and

and it has the ability to create that influence. So I think there's it's just there's no check there's no checks to it. There's no balances in it. Normal relationships have balance. If I if I'm sitting next to my wife and I say, yeah, yeah, we've we we haven't fought in three years, she'd go, that's horseradish. We fought on the way here in a car. Right. And that's regardless of where we went. And so, like, there's some there's some accountability to that relationship. Social media of, like, does not often present the means to have It's a filtered life. It gets to produce a a filtered life Yeah. Which means it's it's disingenuous. Yeah. It I I can't I can't tell and, like, there are people who I know that I've seen the way that they use social media and they're pretty unfiltered. They're they're they're the same people. Right? But, like, there's a lot of people that aren't that way. Right? And, like, they they paint pictures and they they create false realities only to only for the benefit of the perception of others on what they think of you. And once again, that is for your own kingdom. That is your or your own kingdom thing. And, like, not to say that you can't have friends or have people enjoy you or care that you ate at the Taco John's. Right? Like, it's it's I'm not going quite that far but what I'm saying is it's, like, if you spend any time at all crafting your social media presence, you're you're spending time building your kingdom, that's what you're doing. It it it's not biblical humility. Right? Our understanding of humility says, I don't have to think less of myself but I do have to think about myself less. I am not the prime focus of everything that's going on around and you crafting of your social media like, can run a filter, you don't say everything comes to your mind. But, like, the crafting of such a thing or the attempt to kind of cajole someone else into thinking something or reacting in a certain way, that's not humility. That that's where it lacks humility. Correct.

I did hey, I did think of something, though. So I was thinking about this guy who I said, hey, he can't go back in the pulpit ever. Is he not still responsible, biblically, for leading his family? Oh, yeah. I mean, isn't that still important? The case But the family left him.

In that in his example, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But restoration should be his goal. Right. So but he so he can be restored to the place of in to of of proper leadership in his family and that's important. He's leading people there. What precludes the following step that says he should lead others? Is it is it specifically back to Mike's point of saying, hey, it's it's, you know, it's a risk area and you'd be a fool to jump into it? I think it is. I I guess I've always thought there should be an amount of time and I and that's kind of a vague statement. I just, you know, if twenty years goes by and you're you're you have become the best father, the best husband, the best role model ever, well, maybe it's okay. You know, you've proven yourself.

You've lived but but that's maybe that's kinda a cop out. In the back of my mind, I've always kinda thought that though. But these guys are, like, two years later, it's like, you're I'm I'm sorry. In two years, you're you're still the same dude. I mean, sure, you make changes, blah blah blah, but you can't tell me that you're suddenly not going to have affairs when the last two churches you were at, that's all you did. Yeah. Right. Right. You already ran into this once and you went somewhere else and did it again. I guess, maybe what what that's causing me to do is pause, perhaps. I don't know, now that I'm thinking through the scripture that I was that I was pondering through,

is it I'm not sure, actually, now that in context, it's specific enough to say never. I'm not sure that's the case, actually. However, I think it I think if you run through basic filters of, is this for God's kingdom? Yes or no? Like, is it possible? Let's get to get back to Buva's core question. Is it possible that someone who the rest of humanity says, this person should not be doing this and that the spirit calls them into it? I I suppose. I I don't find that particularly likely. I think I think you would need confirmation from other people who are as closely involved in mentoring. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And there's gotta be some process. I still lean toward not but but I've I've seen people do it and I've not, like Picking it outside the place. Right. Right. Right. I guess and so so maybe the and and this is a bigger question. In fact, I'll I'll I'll save the core question, I suppose, to to another time. But the the because you have a playing field that says, hey, man, the spirit will do whatever it wants. True. Yes. Of course.

If that is the guiding principle, the Bible is way too long. It requires almost none of it. I probably could have could have done that thing in three pages. No. That's true. God created way too many points of order on his character if he's just gonna say, listen to the holy spirit. Don't worry about this. Fly fly away if you want.

Yeah. Yeah. That and that's what I'm saying, like, I think there is and I I don't I I always hate the word balance here because I don't think that's the right way to think about it. But, like, Paul didn't say, dear Ephesus and surrounding churches who will also read this letter. The spirit will tell you what to do. Love all.

He still says, hey, avoid sexual immorality. Like, it's coming up later. The back half of Ephesians is actual tangible things. Don't do this. Do this. Be patient with one another. Right? Things that you said, like, is the spirit capable of of telling me to be patient? Sure. Sure. But if you remember, in that same section of of Ephesians, it says, that god gave the church gifts like teachers, preachers, prophets, people who otherwise go to a broader group and say, here's the thing, you need to be humble, you need to be patient, you need be gentle, you need to have watch your sexual morality, like, use kind words, like, all these things. Right? And so I I I just I'm that's that's where I am hesitant and this comes from a guy who very much believes that I, run the risk of of nipping spirit, the holy spirit's work in my life because I don't understand it. I feel that's certainly possible. However, the the very nature of scripture itself, unless I have to throw out I shouldn't have to throw out scripture which otherwise affirms the holy spirit and its work in his life and everything else the scripture says to get to that point. And so maybe that's that maybe we can that's something we could bring up another time. But that is that is where I run a

bell's ding for me is, well, what if what if the spirit says this guy is to do something that otherwise, like, it just doesn't sniff like it would do? And reasonable people who otherwise are following Jesus go, I just don't think so. I mean, would you feel the same way about a guy that was embezzling from the church? Yes. Alright. Would you feel the same way about a guy who told a lie? It depends what the lie was. Does it matter how he sinned? Yes. Yes. Yes, it does. Yes, it does. And and and and and frankly, the the the the thought about all sin is equal is not a biblical thought. Right. It's just not that's not. And so, yes, I I believe it does. Tell that to the people who were stoned to death. Yeah. As opposed to the ones who just had to sacrifice a bird. They they all required like, I get I get it. They're they're Yeah. Totally describing that all require

the sacrifice of Jesus. But you figure you'd look at a guy with beefy arms and go, boy, that guy gotta carry a lot of goats in here. But look look at the the see, the thing is there's just not that many well, can't think of too many examples of fallen shepherds in scripture. Right. You can think of Moses made one mistake God's like, okay, you're not going to the promised land. And that that it was like, dude, he just hit a rock. I mean Really? But he did allow him to continue to lead them there. Right. Right. He just wasn't able to go in. But he didn't yeah. He didn't lead him once he was yeah. Yeah. But was it promise that he didn't. Yeah. Yeah. But that's but but once again, you didn't see Moses crying on the step and say, restore me back to my way into the promised land. Yeah. Yeah. Give me back the promised land too. Yeah. And he goes, boy, you're right. Feel led. And and even the sin itself was hard for me to grasp. I'm like, what did Moses get in trouble for again? He said, huzzah, and hit the rock? This was the problem? Right? Stuff that I would let go and go, sorry, I didn't presume upon your your authority. My bad. Moses totally doubted God's ability to let him be a pharaoh. So So because of that, he was Aaron. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a I mean, it's a trust issue. Right? Like Yeah. Exactly. Said, I can't be the one to go talk to Pharaoh. I'm not a good speaker. You you don't wanna send my brother? Please.

So so overall though, like, can you not say that that that that you even as a pastor are guilty of not trusting God when you should have? I'm I'm sure. Yeah. Quite right. Right. That's a blank statement for everybody. Right? I'm just right. So so Well, okay. So so let let's look at the other behavior in Moses' life for a tangible example, right? Did he did he otherwise direct or influence to the extent that that scripture tells us the people he was leading in such a way that caused them to sin? No.

His sin was a hit was a was a lack of personal faith between him and God. He didn't contribute to the cow. Now, I say this, but Aaron still got the high priest kick. Yeah. It's I I don't know. I don't know. I don't see Dan's right, I suppose there's not there's not a lot of I'm trying to think of some, you know? I don't know. So remember Paul Paul talks about, who's who's is it Sylvanas? Who's the guy? He's, like, hey, stay away from that guy. Yeah yeah yeah. Like, Paul doesn't have people cutting doesn't have a problem cutting people off from the fellowship of the community, the church for similar for unrepentant for lack of repentance

and continued destruction of the church of which I would say these guys are guilty of. You got him calling out Peter for racism. Yep. But he didn't say you can't lead anymore. I mean, I think the hardest thing to grasp is, like and and maybe man, maybe Bouva is right. Here's the thing. It's like I don't I wouldn't go that far. I'm I'm not doing I wouldn't go that far. Right? Here's here's what I'm trying to process. It's like, I don't know this man. Right? I don't know him to say Which why you shouldn't be the one to make decision. I don't know this man to know whether his heart is repentant. It doesn't look that way. From the outside looking in, this looks horrible. Right. Right? It's it looks like a power grab. It looks like a whatever. Right? Like but, like, if if if if he has truly repented, it it just he has no signs of that. Hey. True repentant looks looks like actions. I agree with that statement entirely. If there's not point repentance into it and and and confession repentance moving towards the will of God, you're absolutely right. There's no reason for anyone regardless of sin to find themselves in a place where they are they are shepherding,

believers in Christ. Absolutely not. They should not be there. There's 100% of that. But what I'm saying though is we we can't at least I feel we can't make this this off the statement of you can't move back in. You you don't know the person's heart, you're not in their direct community. Hold on a second. So but but, if the very discussion that we just had is, like, how do I know a person's heart? Like, what kind of that that that statement is is extremely nebulous. Agree. Well, that's why I didn't talk It's about protecting the flock more than about the person. I I agree with that statement, and I I'm not saying that you should just automatically allow anybody in just because they said that they've repented of the sin and stuff like that. But, like, what I'm saying is I have a problem with us saying absolutely not. Mhmm. That's what I have a problem with. I think there are people that that if if there are true believers that we feel that are following God in those communities that are connected with those peoples, those pastors that are counseling through, whether it's older pastors in the situation or people who have been in the congregation for a long time that know God and know his principles and things like that. They could be, someone to speak into their life personally

that they can't say, hey. You know, this is this is a truthful situation. You you screwed up. There's no doubt about that. You confessed that. You moved, to repentance for that the the power of the holy spirit, and God is transformative in your heart. We understand that concept and there is a call away from shackles and to grace and to love and to to God's kingdom. But not the pulpit. Okay. Why why is that grace not enough? That's what I don't understand. I'm not saying it's not. Yeah. My my argument is not against the concept of that grace. I just You think it should be grace plus your old job back? No. And not in any situation. I'm saying if god calls you, we can't stand in the way. And that that runs into where Ben and I

Ben and I are talking through the situation of of, like, the holy spirit calling things and the holy spirit calling us specific things and and that's Do you but let well, let so let That's kind of been you and I's conversation for what Yeah. Well, well, so let's get let's get the question that so, like, do you believe that the the holy spirit will call you something that's that's altered to the character of god? No. Absolutely. Well, then we agree. Yeah. We agree on that. Yes. Okay. Yeah. Then we don't we don't wanna disagree with each other then. Agreed. Okay. I'm not sure what happened there. So my my statement of of understand my my statement of of listening to the holy spirit and listening to god call and things like that is not meant to be a statement against, or for the fact that the holy spirit would call anyone against the spirit of god. That doesn't it doesn't work. It's it's not a thing. It doesn't go against itself. Right? Like, god and the holy spirit don't go against one work in concept of way the trilogy there. But

I just where we have difficulty there is is in interpretation I would, of what that looks like and how specific if you will, those calls to individuals live. I'm not following the distinction you're making. Like, what like what, like, be more tangible with me. What are you what are you talking about? Oh, I'm just saying what what I mean from the perspective is is if if God called that person into ministry in the beginning, right,

then they screw up. Mhmm. Does that mean that God's call is no longer for them to be in ministry? Very well could be. Yes. Could be, but at all times. Is there a possibility that someone having screwed up hardcore, adulterous, stealing from the church, anything like that? Having known that they were called into ministry in the first place, is there a possibility that someone that was called into ministry

screwed up, but that did not change the nature of God or the Holy Spirit's call in their life to that specific ministry? And if we can agree that that that there's the possibility that someone can be called in a ministry in the first place, being fallible screws that up, but then can take back the mantle of their original calling from God, the Holy Spirit into ministry after confession, repentance, and moving towards the grace of God?

Yeah. No. I would say it's not off the table. Okay. Good. Dan? Yeah. I I'm I'm it's hard to make a a a concrete statement. Agree. Absolutely. And that's what you're that's what you're pushing back against. Right. Exactly. And I'm not saying that that there's a You're not saying that all the pedophiles did. Situations where someone may not have been called into ministry, but they found themselves in a pastor's job. Mhmm. There's no doubt about that. People can do that. People can get in the way of that situation. Just because someone is a pastor does not mean God called them specifically into that. Well All I'm saying is if we can if we can agree that someone was called, whether probably not our distinction of whether or not they were. That would be someone in their, community that they worked with. They prayed on not only just themselves saying, hey, the Lord gave this to me. They asked their congregation to pray on this. They asked people that they trusted that were willing to listen to God call things out, through that concept of working with believers in the area that they've determined as a community, yes, this was a move that God called. This was something that that God did. Is the possibility there that they can they can screw up being fallible, but then move back into the

Sorry. That was You know, it all goes to back to calling. You can you can screw up your calling Absolutely. Even though god, you know, really wanted you to do it. The bible. Yeah. Exactly. Samson, you know. I mean, he did spend a good chunk of time in prison because, you know, they're kinda out of ministry there. Absolutely. Moses messed it up. Abraham messed it up. Sarah messed it up. Lot messed it up. All of them. Samson, David. Is that how you're using calling For all is that are you are we considering that equivalent across all those stores?

I'm saying calling from the perspective of god, intervened and told them a plan. Yeah? In this in this situation, yeah, I'd call that. Or at least that's Yeah. Yeah. That's what was I I was assuming that was. Okay. That's what I was picking up. Yeah. It's hard it it is hard to make it concrete. This is official stance

forever on every situation. No. And I think so so I I think I understand and I and I would agree that there is all politics is local to a certain extent, right? Like, so she says, like, how how can you know? It's it's a bit of a communal thing. I the the risk, I think, where I'm where I'm pushing back risk on the other side that says, the very thing that comes with, hey, the spirit told me I could do this, that flies in the face of everything we actually know about God and the spirit.

But some guy, because he could speak well Mhmm. And made it sound like, hey, I'm very contrite and this situation does not make sense And and he could go, I know the situation doesn't make any sense, boys, but the spirit said I could do it. Mhmm. And the you know, we we listen to the spirit even though the spirit is radical and does radical things. Right. The interpretation of circumstances into being god's calling the holy spirit. That's right. He did he did not the Lord gave you a functioning brain. Paul seems to think that you're able to use some form of reason about the things that God has given you. Right. And I did not I don't think it's flies flies out the window just because we say the word spirit in a freaking conversation. Agreed. Yeah. No. I can lift a fridge, but that doesn't mean God's calling me to a ministry where I lift people's fridges. Yes. Correct. Right? So, like, I think that's the without enabling either a restriction that says the spirit is not capable of doing x y or z or saying just because someone is under the just because if we see that the spirit can do anything it wants, it opens up the door for people to use the spirit Mhmm. To drive anything they want, which is a very human behavior Absolutely. Of which you can tell the difference, not by the state of their heart, like, that I can't see or or otherwise interact interact with. With. Right? It is the function of what it it can be seen in actions. Right. It's not a mind thing. It's not, I spent ten months on a mountain thing. It's not, like, I felt a whoosh of wind. Like, I should Right. I should be able to see it in their lives because both the Old and New Testament

strongly indicates Yeah. That the matter of faith is something that is tangible. Yeah. That's actually true. Absolutely. Because the the the sheep know the shepherd voice. Right? Right. Like Absolutely. I have I have been around situations where the Holy Spirit has been in the middle of it and you know it. You know it's there. On the other hand, I've seen people repent and I never thought, hey, man, I can't quite tell if that's repentance. You know what it looks like. Right? You know what a humble heart looks like. Yeah. You know what people look like when they're when they're repenting and humbling themselves before God's grace. Seafruits. Yeah. And maybe and and it was it was just it was a pointed example with the fellow we were talking about earlier because no part of that seems smells like repentance to me. Yeah. I don't think that guy's repentant at all. I think that that guy's a situation where he's still trying to make excuses for it and is not willing to run into the concept of

god holds something so much better than your fake version of half grace that, that you made up in your thought process who he. The thing is that and and and I think the reason that, like, it even this conversation even bears any weight because I think we can all agree when we get to the tail end of it. But people have continued and will continue to hurt other people Yeah. In the name of the holy spirit and it's a scary thing. It's a scary thing because people will claim that this is the Holy Spirit, this is the right thing, this is what we got and you will find kids at the other end of that and you will find wives at the other And end of and then you go, who's keeping an eye on this Holy Spirit that would allow this guy? Right? And then and the holy spirit, I I I, you know, I I can't make a case for him. I got the bible. I got god's character. I can say, the holy spirit I know and the one that that was promised to me acts this way. But the one that this guy's invoking seems to be doing whatever the heck he wants. And that's what it comes down to is, you know, if there's a call to anything in this in this conversation, it is we need obedient Christ followers. Correct. We need obedient Christ followers that find themselves seeking first the kingdom of God in everything. And understanding exactly like John 14, that's the concept of if you love him, you will keep his commandments. You understand who God is, you find yourself in a place where you can identify Yahweh in things because you understand that you love him, he is your king, he is your lord, he is El Shaddai, god, lord almighty, all those kind of things. When you truthfully understand the identity of the king and his commandments and where you are in that relationship,

you will start to hear his voice, and you will start to hear where that comes from in that spirit of second nature. See, and that's the thing. And and that's like, like, even a situation like this, take it out of the newspaper, put it down the street, and we know this fella. Right? Yeah. The sheep hear the shepherd's voice and you hear this coming out of his mouth, you go, nope. Yep. Nope. You you and I would both show up to that church and Nope. We're talking. Nope. And then we go find other people and go, nope. Nope. Nope. That is not that is not god talking right Exactly. And you would and and you don't have to worry about whether it's a your kingdom versus his kingdom thing, whether he's right, you're right. What you're saying is is I know what the shepherd sounds like, and that ain't him talking. Right. That's what I needed to know. You're out. You're not doing nothing. And and and And and then witness to them as an unbeliever. And then and then you look at and then you look at the conversation that's going on, you go, I you guys don't recognize the the father's voice. You're not hearing it because you're about where the well, like, hire this guy. Who says he hears it? And he doesn't. This is not repentance. This is not God talking. This is a man in his kingdom. And so, agreed. I I understand what what Boov is saying and I I think there's just a there's a larger level. It's, like, even recently, I've just been around too many folks that do some very nasty things in the spirit's name and because of the place that they're in and, like, it's It should be scary. It's it's it's it's just a thing, like and and we've talked about this on this show before, the number of people that have come through this show and been like, the spirit's leading me do this or the spirit do this and find them five five years later where they're like, the spirit let me down. What? What?

Yeah. Trace that trace that treasure map back and see exactly where you Something wasn't right about this. Something wasn't right about what happened here. Right? You too. Yeah. Okay. We got through them. You got time for one advice? Yep. Here, life from the path. I've been dating my boyfriend for a year and a half. We're both 30, and we have pretty much decided to tie the knot. The only thing holding me back is his hygiene.

When we met, he wasn't all that into showering and using deodorant. Hey, man. You smell. I'm not all into that. You need to Catfish don't know deodorant. That's right. Just Dan like would say, you need to get woke to my fumes. It's patchouli. Slowly over time, he has started to shower daily and wear deodorant, but he still doesn't brush his teeth. Oh. His apartment is my biggest nightmare. It's filled with open delivery boxes. There are beard trimmings all over the bathroom. He's trying to clean his beard up. That's reasonable. A pink ring of death in his shower and his stovetop. Well, you get the point. Wait. What was the what's the pink ring of death? Pink?

What is that? That's the Bubble bath. Mildew, mold, all that stuff that that Mister Bubble. Gets on your shower if you don't clean it? I'm unfamiliar with Soap scum. Okay. Alright. Sorry. Go ahead. I use biodegradable organic products, they go right down the drain. Surprised you don't go run out in the rainwater, Mike. Singing like angels. Actually, I shave my beard off in the backyard. Of course, you do. Then I'll have to clean it up. Yeah. I can never get that stuff cleaned up. I cut my hair out. With a bunch of I do almost all have the pink ring of death, I shower in mother nature. Yeah. Almost all my my cosmetic duties are done outside, so I have to clean up a mess.

Should I mention that I'm one of the cleanest people I know? I grew up with well dressed, great smelling men in my life. They're walking Creepy statement. They're the walking, talking, real life versions of a men's fashion commercial. Is this a make or break situation? We get along in so many other ways. You need to make that decision. You you are a human being. Make the decision of whether or not that's a make or break. You can't ask someone else that. That is your own life.

Ridiculous. No. It's a break. What? Break it. I think that you should have a conversation teeth? There is okay. There's a deep there's something deeper than that. Right? There's there's a lack of discipline. There's a lack of discipline in many areas, I'm sure. Maybe his elbow hurts. At least got a raccoon for a spirit animal. I don't know what his problem is. But if you can't You are you are dating a trash panda and and you need to realize that you need to have that conversation. If you have a conversation that says, hey, this grosses me out. You think this has a I I assume that his behavior up to this point has changed because she's having those conversations. I don't think so. If you're eight months in and you're like, babe, I'd like to marry but you will not Hey. Scrub not your assume that though which is why I'm saying if you haven't had the conversations, have them. If you have, fuck. He's 30 years old. You're gonna change his whole lifestyle in eight months? Give the man some room. Give him a little breath,

you know? I am astonished to find you in any way giving this guy some flak air. I'm a tell you right now, if I was not tied to a woman right now, my toothbrushing would go way down. I don't and that is your own that is your own personal project. Yeah, it is. I don't wanna that throw a lady needs to to to follow along. But if said but but because you are associated with a woman who goes, hey, you gotta scrub them, Yellas, you go, no. I'm barely functional. You look like you just ate corn. I'm almost 40 years old. I'm barely functional as the man she's looking for. Well, then you need to go home and thank her again. Thank the lord for What I'm saying is is, like, I I mean, can you ugh. You gotta he's 30 years old. You give this man a little bit of breathing room. He's changed a couple things, right, so we don't like to throw boxes away. He's lazy. Get him a motorized toothbrush. He'll use that. Get him a trash compactor. He'll use that. What? I'm sorry. What? A motorized toothbrush that walks over to your bed stand and jumps in? You think the problem is he's too lazy to sit in. Hey. Will he move his hand? Here's how you get This this young man this this 30 year old man, excuse me Yep. Who just needs a little breathing room. No. He to change. Yeah. I guarantee you the toothbrushing

and the delivery boxes is not the extent of it. You need to put No one is that has that lack of discipline and that's the extent of Oh, that's not true. There's way more than that. Here's the deal, he has if you if you put a toothbrush in the shower and in the bathroom, he would brush his teeth, that would save it. Most people get in the in the shower and think, I Do you think he just doesn't have a a toothbrush? I should brush my teeth, but I don't wanna get all the way out of the shower to go get it because I'm lazy. And then he doesn't brush at all. But if you put a toothbrush in there, he would definitely do it. Well, yeah. Hey. How much do you love me, babe? Less than two feet. Yeah. I love some people say I love you to the moon and back because guys hygiene grosses me out. Well, that sucks. I don't love you anymore than I think you're be. Now hold on. You flip that question around. How much do you love me? $2.50 for another toothbrush in the shower. Do you love me? Buy that toothbrush. You think that the person that that that has good oral oral hygiene is Yes. Is the one who should be making the compromises? Yes.

Okay. Not the person who doesn't brush their teeth. Yes. Delivery box. Let me follow it. Let's follow it. She goes and buys a toothbrush, he still don't use it. Yeah. He does. What has to do with delivery? Let's say he doesn't. Why are you telling a story in which he doesn't? I say he does. I'd say he doesn't. What about the apartment? What about the When you buy the two fifty toothbrush, is he gonna clean up his place? Well, while he's brushing his teeth, she can pick up them boxes. So now she has to clean up after him. Well, here here's the shell of a man, Mark. You give a little, get a little. He's gonna lose his teeth pretty soon anyway. The two teeth their teeth are all gonna be gone soon anyway. Yeah. He's not brushing them. There's no way he doesn't. That doesn't actually teeth. Right? He chews gum. Then he feels like It is not. Okay. He feels like they Totally. 10 out of 10 dentists recommend, some kind of dentine ice to take over your oral hygiene. Up in the morning and goes, I need some gum,

or he drinks chocolate milk to make that steak go away. I've done your statement with the two and a half feet doesn't make sense because he's probably gonna get up to get his gum. No. He leaves it next to the bedside table. Is that for all day then? Yeah. Then we're still back to the situation where he's gross. I think he's alright. You and I both know gum does not last longer than an hour. You gotta have a lot of gum. He's prepared. No. He's not. He gets spurts of activity where he buys lots of gum. Sure. Fine. I'll give you that, and then he needs to follow through and just clean up his place. Your place is gross. Your teeth are gross. You're gross. You guys are so judgmental. The spirit has led him not to brush his teeth. Looking for the lightning. That's true. Paul doesn't speak to that specifically.

Spirit could be all about you. Spirit could lead me Says a man of one life. Didn't say nothing about no teeth, Broja. This could be he could be a prophet, and this is a sign act. Oh, gross. The words of your mouth are the Yeah. I mean, yeah. No one says why no one likes to listen to Jeremiah. Maybe he's got the stankers. That's what you're saying. Did John the Baptist take care of his teeth? I did not. Nope. I think he went out in the wilderness. That was his charm. Just said, hey. I'm here to baptize, not have clean teeth. Yep. And it and and his prospective woman's like, you need to put on a different suit and clean yourself up. You must be gone, woman. That's why there's so many baptisms. Put me under. I don't wanna smell that. Hey. You're standing too close. Your halitosis is awful. I'll say it. Jesus is the Christ. Jesus is the Christ. Make this stop. Oh, my lord. Don't kill me for that one. Hey. I hey. To that point, if the lord has raised him as a prophet, he's trying to scare this woman away. It's best that she leave. It probably yeah. That's true. She should probably get out there because his life is probably not gonna be full of luxury and and greatness there. Yeah. So brass tacks. If this is the work of the lord, he's trying to chase her out. Two, if it's not the work of the lord, he's disgusting. Yeah. Brush your teeth and throw stuff away. Now to be fair, she's comparing him to this Old Spice dad or hers. Her comparison is ridiculous, but that her her her lack of having anything to stand on actually doesn't change the fact that you should still change that. Tell me this was not true about any of your houses before you were married. You filled with open delivery boxes. Yeah. Sure. Check. Absolutely. There are beard trimmings all over the bathroom. No. No. No. I didn't do that either. Uh-huh. A pink ring of death in the shower. No. Okay. Yeah. Shower. Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. And get yourself a a, like, magic eraser. It goes away. They didn't have that when I was that that old. Well, I'm sorry. You're a thousand. Yeah. We had Borax.

That's fine. Get yourself a thick of Borax and dump it down the drain. Yeah. And then one comes out, hi, Isaac. And they're like, what have been doing? Yeah. And then you go get more pizza and you got more open delivery boxes. That was his problem. Now hold on. I grew up with the well dressed, great smelling men in my life. They're walking, talking, real life versions of a men's fashion commercial. Now, can't compete with that. No. That's unrealistic. It's because Frank Sinatra lived at your place. I mean, what what's old Mike to eyes is the one walking around. Mike to do? Yeah. That's what I'm saying. You gotta drop him. It's it's not he can't compete. You live with t Hilfiger. It's not his deal. He's like, you can't. Reality is what bothers her a little bit now is gonna bother her a lot in about five years. Yeah. If they ever get married, she's gonna be so out a week into their marriage. Yeah. They get along on every other aspect. I have to clean this house again because you got another Domino's box. Teeth smell like a possum. Yeah. I'm telling you, over the years, as you if when you marry this man, give him ten years and he'll have his stuff straightened out. I mean, that's a long time. Yeah. Live with gross halitosis for ten years? The toothbrush thing needs to come up sooner. But the pizza boxes

I mean Start start with once a week there, catfish. Yeah. Yeah. I so, obviously, I would I I would set some I would set some limits here. I think it's alright to say, look. You gotta we we ain't coming together biblically Here's what I was until you separate stood up. You guys. Physically standing. You're worried to defend the accosted preacher out of the church and give him back his space, but the man who who's having a hard time learning to brush his teeth, you're breaking up the marriage and say you're out. We're not gonna break on this. I'm at Grace is gone. Everyone's out of the room. Pick up your pizza boxes by yourself. Hold on. I was I was I was the negative on both. It has to. He gets no pastorate, and this man gets no wife. Hey, man. I changed my entire argument from earlier. He he shouldn't be a pastorate. Yeah.

Man, even if he's a toothbrush, give the grace to this man. Here's the thing. If there's change, yes. I'm I'm a I'll make you a bet right now. You go over the the the news feed over the last week, and you look at this guy from Hillsong that left, and you look at this televangelist televangelist that's that's trying to start this church, and you look at how shiny his teeth are. I know you're I knew you were gonna say it. I knew you were gonna find way count. Together, the man of god is with a fancy suit. Brushes his teeth and seems to somehow find debauchery. How I know that was gonna be your argument the second you started that? It's the same thing with people who drink water. Historically, all of them are dead. I'm not gonna drink water. And the same argument with coffee is 99% water, so I'm not gonna drink water. I feel like you're not giving old Hal a tosis near the chance he deserves. Mister a tosis. Mister a tosis. If if there's a redemptive nature to his actions Yep. As in he starts brushing his teeth and then maybe cleans up his place every once in a while at least Yeah. Fine. Mean pastor. Can he ever hope to be as holy as the clean people that you love? Here's the deal. I'm not advocating for holy and clean.

Hold on. Guiding principle, my extension of grace does not require me continue to expose myself to your continued running outside of me. Too gross mouth. I mean, if he's not crop dusted the place with his So now that he's What's the problem? Fish. Of course, he is. What do you think kind of behavior follows marriage, Mike, where she's not gonna get close to this man? Hey, baby. Can I have a kiss? Not in a million years. Yeah. No. Did you see that shower toothbrush I bought you? Yeah. No, honey. I missed it. He's got a five pound pack of the gum. He's doing just fine. A poppity poppity poppity. Yeah. Yeah. That's what she that's she always thought, boy, marriage is gonna be great. I can always be six feet out of my man and picking up his boxes. Yeah. I love your treasures and your teeth, sweetheart. Here's the thing. Is I smooch. I'm almost certain that my wife would love to run her her fingers through my long flowing locks, but that ain't ever gonna happen. Does that mean I can't get married now? That was not your choice. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. His toothbrush it is, Mike. No. It is. He's not allergic to the toothbrush. You don't know anything about this man. Some weird, like Maybe his grandpappy beat with the toothbrush. What do you know? Time he goes like this. Maybe he had a weird neighbor that Chuck brushes at him all the time. Tennis elbow. I can't I can't brush my teeth. No. He could be just really buff. Yeah. Can't reach him. Yeah. Okay. Maybe he's got bulging biceps. Ridiculous situation. From left field, Dan comes in with some truth and all shit. Your bodybuilding, gross tooth, nasty apartment boyfriend has biceps and pectorals so big he can't brush his own teeth, then you get one of those that sticks to the wall and you push his face against it. That's why he can't pick up the pizza boxes up off the floor because he's too wet. Wait. Hold on a minute. Hold on. A man that cannot brush his teeth also cannot eat.

Yeah. Are you gonna feed him too? He got forks for that. He's got a corn on the cob, the man. That's a toothbrush, Dan. What is the difference in length of a fork? It's a long fork. Dan, if you're gonna be on my side, you gotta do better than this. You know what? Here's what you're gonna do. You're gonna go to your local dentist that's been there for seventy years where the old guy has been there forever, and he's got that comedy toothbrush that's this big. You're gonna be like, hey, doctor. Can I borrow that one for my hubby? Because he has such large muscles, he can't use the regular one. He he has So great. Now listen. So your husband can brush his tooth. He has started to brush his teeth or he has started to shower daily and wear deodorant. That's way better than when you met. He started. He's doing his best. I yeah. He's making progress. No. Fine. I'm sorry that your boyfriend's best is not is is stopping at deodorant but can't brush his teeth. Yeah. Yeah. This belies every argument you made. Hey. He's he's too he's too lazy to grab the toothbrush. He could grab the yours. Knows how to turn on the shower. He's a boob. He's a freaking boob. Yeah. I'd I'd like to give him another chance. I feel like he's alright. Yeah. She should give him another chance with the next gal after he goes, oh, crap. I should probably brush my teeth and clean my teeth. Mean, what what do you want? Altimate him, the guy? Say, look. We're done. Call me when you brush your teeth longer. After so long, some true repentance and get brushing that teeth. After so long, maybe, should you put up with bad behavior just because you need to be graceful to them? No. No.

No. You call out it. Here's the deal. You call it out. I think I think I think he is stubbornly refusing to brush his teeth to give the old, center center finger up to Ted Worthington the third and the rest of his guild. Oh. My grandfather was the most wonderful man I've ever met. He smelled of delicious elder berries. Ridiculous. I don't know why you guys are so hard on this guy. Even even yeah. Even if his motives are not clear, this is a this is a problem and you don't I don't think you go into marriage. This is what I'd here's the thing. It's like, I am always the first guy to jump in the pool to be yelling at dudes about

the way that they're acting. But this is not him mistreating a woman. He's mistreating himself. And the woman. And the woman. She's gotta suffer for this. She don't have to kiss him. That's her option. A great relationship that she she wants some kind of physical intimacy. Lick his face. I don't know. He'll come up with anything. Yeah. Paul says, hey. Separate for a time that's mutually agreed upon, like, forever because he won't brush his teeth. Until you brush your teeth. This seems right and biblical. You're overestimating what Moses had in his toiletry bag. Right? He doesn't carry a toothbrush

You're right. A donerant. Hey. Here's hey. Here's the thing. Here's Here's the thing. Moses most certainly brushed his teeth. His wife was one that was willing to, like, hard nail circumcise a kid right out or or like like a circumcise folk right in the middle of everywhere, like, sight unseen. And so you tell me that he's that that she goes You're brush Moses or we're gonna have troubles. Exactly. Yes, dear. He's not gonna take a hard stance in one situation and then just go, I mean, I'm not too worried about this. I never thought lived with such a bunch of Worthington, you guys. Here we go. We're gonna read secular's advice. Let's see if if you can agree. Darren, she's pretty hoity toity, so she might be right in with you guys. Here we go. I am. I'm glad you asked. Yes. This is a make or break situation, and it needs to be resolved before you sign up with this, quote, cellmate for life. While I appreciate his making the effort to shower as a step in the right direction, his lack of attention to his dental health is a cause for worry. Decaying teeth and periodontal disease can cause serious health problems, including health and total heart issues later in life and may be related to Alzheimer's disease. Holy cow. These are who you're in bed with. Leave it This is right here. Leave it to Secular to bring up Alzheimer's when it comes to brushing your teeth. If you think his living conditions are a turn off now, consider how they'll affect you if you marry him when he's gotten better. He either never learns or doesn't care to pick up and clean after himself. That task will be all yours. If you really love him, draw the line now and perhaps it will be put him on the right path better late than never. Now, here's okay. Here's the thing. I'm I'm generally against ultimatums

because they tend to reflect some level of selfishness or something or other, like, you're trying to make a hard stance. However, in light of a lack of teeth brushing at all and I don't mean see, here's here's here's what I'm okay with. God brushes his teeth before he meets this chick all the time, before they go out to eat or whatever, and then she marries him and finds out that that's the only time he brushes his teeth. That seems like a reasonable marriage thing to know. Like, that happens. I think you can work through that. But, like It lets a man into the pulpit who is a dirty swimmer. That's what you're saying. That's what you're saying. Your grace is enough. These are great songs, man. I don't know. They

just come to me right now. Love abides all things, Mike says. Let me sing some of the Marty Marty classics. No. No. Now applying for and then recently leaving Hillsong, Mike Foovie. I don't know. I write the classics. Oh, go on it anyway. Alright. You clean your apartment. I see the lord's spirit in my beard trimmin' that I leave on the floor constantly

as a reminder of god's great gift to me. Eyes above. I'm with you. If I listen to Life the Path Thank you. Hey. Hey. Listen here. I there had to have been something you disagreed with. That's the complaint line. (515) 517-0085. That's (515) 517-0085. That's the Life in the Path complaint line sponsored without his knowledge by Bob Eisenhower with the Eisenhower deal. Thanks, Bob. Appreciate it, Bobby. Alright. The sun. Alright. Who is free?

Where you guys at? We got E. Alright. Who the who's with me? I don't how to kill this. I'm turning up Dola Mike. Child of God. Brush your tea. Don't smack the rock. Alright. Sense a guy. Get that here. You put the we may not see you next week. We'll see you. Thanks for listening to Life in the Path. In the meantime, be faithful to the means. God will handle the ends. You've been listening to Life in the Path.