Live from the Pathway Studios in Johnston proper. You are live from the path. And you're listening to live for the path. It'll be for the Pathway Studios here in Johnston Traverse.

Yes. That is correct. Yeah. Yeah. That that's that's our location. Here's what got going on on the show this evening. So I read this article and I thought it would it was a grabber. And I thought you guys would enjoy it. Ken Ham's Ark Encounter to build expansion featuring Tower Of Babel.

What? Now listen to me. Oh. Listen to me here. The first guys that tried to build a Tower Of Babel were thwarted by the Lord Almighty. Yeah. I don't care who you are. I feel like attempting to build another one is a mistake.

What if he's just building it halfway? Like, we get we we're building it halfway, and then Yeah. This is where the Lord stopped him. Yeah. Like, you kinda make what what you can't make the whole incense. Yeah. You can only make, like, seven eighths of it. Like, one of the essential oils people won't sell you all the ingredients to build the whole incense you burn at the temple in fear that the Lord will be angered. That's that's that's how you handle it, Nathaniel? Well, before we get into this, I wanna I wanna ask you a question. Is there a Johnston improper? Thoughts?

No. No. It's a no. There's nothing improper about this. You been sitting on that bit of comedy for any amount of time right now? I'm here all night. I mean, it was the first time. I don't know why because I've been listening to the show for a while now. It's been many many a moon. Yep. Yep. Yep. And so I've heard, know, hearing Johnston proper several times before, as we all have. And it first occurred to me right now. Where where is Johnston not proper? I don't think it's either or. I think Johnston as a whole town is proper. So why would you have to specify?

I think I I think it was a, it was a cadence problem. I think when we originally did the opening for the show, Pants Pants recorded one that that said Des Moines. Des Moines Downtown Des Moines or something. And so when he went to rerecord when we moved the show to Johnston, I think I didn't like the the the the number of syllables. I wanted more. Mhmm. And so I think we had to have an additional syllable,

two syllables in there. Downtown Des Moines, Johnston proper. So that it would, it sounded right to me. It sounds impressive too. Yeah. So there's legit no reason for it. Just Ben's personal preference on the cadence of the phrase. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't know. And the curtain is pulled back. And there it is. Again, it's this is a dog and pony show. Yeah. Boy, that's a metaphor for the whole show. Yeah. So anyway, if if what would cause someone to okay. Let let me read the article on his tower.

On the fifth anniversary of the Ark Encounter, which features a 510 foot long wooden Noah's Ark has anybody been to this thing? Yeah. I have. Was it pretty impressive, Dan? It was, actually. Yeah. I mean Do they have a bunch of fake animals in there? Yeah. Mean, some of it's kinda dorky. You go in and they go, okay. But there's a long old it's kinda like going in if you've been to any of the national museums, there's lot of stuff you can read and and Yeah. And there's a lot of that kind of stuff going on in there. So you can say, oh, the the crates may have looked something like this, or this is probably what how did how did they get rid of all the poo? You know? Well, here's an idea, you know, and they show, things like that. And it's it's it's really pretty fascinating. I mean,

who knows if it's accurate because we only know so much. Yeah. Right. But it's it's at least someone's imagination of but the size is to scale. And so you can walk around in there thinking, yeah. I can see I can see this. Okay. They can fit a lot of amps in it. Is there something about the Tower Of Babel that you feel like goes hand in hand with the ark? Like, if you're gonna build a biblical artifact or biblical representation of something, you're like, well, we already have the ark. Maybe we should build the Babel. But we don't have dimensions of that. I mean, like, the ark, at least they were like, hey. Here's how big I want this. Or the temple or something. Like, you know, they do the we talk about traveling temple thing. Like, that would be kinda neat. But if it was a permanent Aren't there like install. It could be pretty awesome. Ziggurats and stuff that people think, well, maybe this is the tower. Yeah. I don't Wouldn't they just say that? With the rock people. Look at that one. Yeah. Go to this one.

It says next year, we will start Something fun, dude? Yeah. Ken yeah. They're gonna start fundraising for a Tower Of Babel attraction that we hope to open in three or four years, where among other things, we will help people understand what genetics research and the bible say about the origin of all the people groups around the world. Okay. That's kinda interesting. I can assure you, colon, it will be a fascinating eye opening attraction, he continues. Says the expansion of the theme park's grounds in Northern Kentucky will also include an exceptionally well done scale model of what Jerusalem may have looked like at the time of Christ. That's also cool. Okay. So that seems alright. Yeah. I just I mean, building the Tower Of Bay, it just seems bad. At least this guy's a Christian, though. So he's not doing it to mock anything or to he said, like, here's a lesson. Yeah. You know? Do they have a water park out there? I don't know.

It seems like it would go with this theme. Would also seem weird to have a water park. Like, it looks like it's gonna flood every once in while. Because the art because the water's what caused the trouble. Just like the Tower Of Babel's what caused the trouble. And we're like, look, there's a water slide right by the park. You didn't get to go in, but you get to go wee on your way down. Enjoy this death water. Yeah. Here's I I I my that Tower Of Babel story is is is one of my favorite, accounts in the Bible. Yeah. Because, like, the people are like, look, we're gonna we invented this brick. Right? And we're gonna build this thing all the way to the sky and sit where God sits. And then when God has to speak about it, he goes, hey, man. Looks like they're up to something. We best go down there and see what's up, which means that he cannot see it from heaven. Right? Because it's not that impressive. Yeah. And he has to come down. Tells the satellite. He tells the spirit and Jesus, I guess we're gonna have to go down there and see what's up. See what's happening. I I think this confirms my long held belief that they had great power tools back in the day. Yeah. Yeah. They can't build this kind of stuff. Apocalyptic Noah? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Was that in Ken Ham's version of the ark, like a plug in? There's like an outlet there or a silver powered draft wheel.

You know, he had some pretty rugged tools. And at the time, I thought to myself, what makes you think they were so rugged? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we had a silversmith, what, within three or four generations of Adam, or whatever. That had been within the first thousand years, we had a dude tinkering with steel. There's no way they didn't come up with some pretty fancy stuff before the flood. Well, yeah, I think there was that guy named DeWalt that came up with some tools. Cousin of Nimrod. He gets he gets no no respect. He said, I like the yellow.

He adds also for children, we'll create a themed carousel for them to ride. I can't can't imagine the entries on this thing. Like, if it's not the it's gotta be the animals from the ark. Right? And not like, you the the Goliath or something. People groups? Who are the who are those half men, half angels? The Nephilim or Yeah. The Nephilim. Nephilim. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The Nephilim carousel. That'll seem weird.

Oh, dear. It's like unicorns and dinosaurs and stuff that didn't make it onto the ark. Yeah. Oh, oh, like the lost creatures carousel? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I didn't think about that. Do we think mythical creatures? The the lord said, no. No, man. You were a mistake. Yeah. You stay out here. Yeah. The $100,000,000

ark encounter is seeking record seeing record crowds. The attendance is returning to pre pandemic levels with up to 7,000 visitors on Saturdays. Wow. Says our research shows that over 92% of those who visit our attractions are coming from outside Kentucky. Well, yeah. I mean, I guess you would hope so. They bring in buses. All I can imagine the dude down the street's been more than twice. He's like, yeah. I mean, I I saw it. Is it expensive to get in there, Dan? Yeah. I'm saying it's really I don't know. It's like $70.80 bucks a piece or something like that. And I thought that was outlandish until I got in there, and I thought there are employees like, I used to take Adventureland, had a bunch people running around. Was like, there are employees every 12 feet, like, picking up dirt, and it's like, it is clean. Right. Because they're everywhere. There's all these little guys in the little Burger King outfits running around sweeping and keeping things clean and They're in Burger King outfits? Well, I don't know what they were, but Burger King like a It made me hungry for the Burger King. I wish Yeah. Right. The ark were in the in the, like, togas and stuff. Not togas, but you know what I mean. Like a Like something most would be wearing.

Tutic. Previously, Ark Encounter said on his website that it would use Babel to explain the origin of the different languages and people groups. We will have an excellent teaching tool in the form of a very detailed Babel diorama. Doesn't that sound real rudimentary, a diorama? Yeah. Like a shoe box. Shoe box. Yeah. All of these figures and designs were meticulously designed, three d printed, and hand painted in order to present a realistic view of what it might have looked like as these people went about ignoring God's command and building a tower that reached into the heavens. Wait. How are they ignoring he didn't have a command, don't build to the heavens. Right? He just looked at them and said, stop it. Yeah. Yeah. This is not gonna do well for you. Yeah. Did he say disperse, though? And then they said, no. We're gonna we're gonna get together. In a city. Yeah. I guess so. We're gonna hang out. It's been a while. Yeah. With that. Okay. The impact of the rebellion can be seen all around us today. We could use this historical event to teach the truth about humanity that we're all related and are descended from Noah as described in Genesis, it added.

In June 2019, Answers in Genesis announced that they would add new facilities partly in response to a growth in annual attendance at the time. This included the creation of a 2,500 seat auditorium with a 70 foot long LED screen, expanding the size of the Arrow Rat Ridge Zoo, and opening a larger family play space. They have a zoo in there where they keep the animals pinned up. I this all just seems weird to me. Like, really antithetical. Okay. Listen. Some of these comments are gonna this guy says, I don't know. Unlike Noah's ark, the first Tower Of Babel didn't work out too well for those who built it. True. Okay. That's what I was thinking.

Let's see. There are certain things in the Bible that we just have to accept as being true and wait till we are in heaven to look back to see what these things look like. That's why we are people of faith. Okay. That seems real weird. I mean, like, how how do you imagine this? Is it round? Is it square? What kind of building? Is it like a big pyramid? I always think it like the Leaning Tower Of Pisa. I guess me too. I don't know why. Yes. Maybe there was a film thing back in the day or something like big round thing. I think I think Nathaniel's right. Think the assumption is it was like a ziggurat, which is like, like, if you start at the bottom with a big base, then you're moving in and kinda I wanna say because since it's circles, but it's not. They're squares, but they're getting smaller and smaller and, like, building up. Yeah. I mean, wouldn't you get it, like, 80 feet up and go, man, we had to make the bottom bigger. Then I gotta start all over again and make the bottom bigger again so you don't run out of out of out of bricks by the time you get to the top, out of room to have a level? I don't know. I feel like so we we so much a field trip to go look at this thing. This so this guy says, I live in Kentucky and one day decided to take the kids and grandkids to see the Ark. I made it as far as seeing the prices. Needless to say, it's way out of my price range. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We we need to plan a Life in the Path bus tour to the ARC. Yeah. The last time we were gonna do a bus tour, we're gonna go beat up that guy that was selling His face on with his face on it. We could do both. Okay. Good. Yeah. It needs to be a two for one for sure. And then we can stop at the Chinese buffet like we do before. Oh, they got hoo huts everywhere.

Hello, mister Hudson. We heard from you from the network. You're part of the black tie hoo hut club. Alright. Alright. Let's see. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I mean, that's I love all the things you would build. That's just no. I get it. No. Get it. Never mind. I'm going for the backtrack already. It's like because it is talking about race, and and it's a pretty pretty contemporary

humanity. Yeah. It it does make sense after they said this is what we're gonna do with it. But on the offset, when you say, we're gonna build the Tower Of Babel, you're like, oh, I don't yeah. I don't know about this. Plus, isn't Ken Ham's website like answers in Genesis or something like that? Yeah. So, like, there's only certain amount of things in Genesis you can build. Yeah. So if you if you If it wasn't the yeah. If it wasn't Tower Of Babel, what other things could you build from Genesis? You could build the the mountain where they were gonna sacrifice Isaac. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, like, you could do the experience, like, lay on the thing, a cart, and it takes you up like a roller coaster. Crazy old man come come back. Hey. Then a ram jumps in and you go down. So I've been I've been reading Genesis I've been reading Genesis here lately. And, like, it never it like, when when when Abraham and Sarah had Isaac

right? Abraham? Yeah. Yeah. Isaac had Isaac. They were, like, over a hundy already. Yeah. And Abraham lived to be, like, one seventy five. And after Sarah died, after he was post a hundy, he married another woman and I've had, like, seven more kids. I mean, this is a this is a Virile Abraham. He's like a hundo something. Yeah. Marries a new lady and then pops out seven more children. I feel like we people aren't expected to be that no. We tell people to stop. Yeah. We put them out to pasture. Yeah. Abe Abe is back on it. Well, he don't They're still in the be fruitful of multipy days, though. I suppose. I mean, once I in fact, when did they cut people down to one twenty or around 01/20?

This will be the number of their dates. From the ark. Yeah. That was an ark thing. Yeah. So Abraham was I thought that was I've heard there's contention about that, that that's not actually about There's contention about everything. Yeah. I mean I bet that's not a literal number, maybe. Like I thought it was a little they were it was I've heard an interpretation where God's saying, hey. You get a hundred and twenty years before the flood happens. Oh, that it's related to the event, not, like, max years? Not max years of humans having life. Well, which would make sense because, like, to your point, Mike, if Abraham was, one seventy five, like

hey. Here's the thing here's the thing with some of that stuff in in in Genesis is that, like, people believed what was in these books, and these stories from Yahweh for literally thousands of years, and they weren't dumb. They're not dumb people. And so if we look at it today and we go, now wait a minute. God said limit one twenty, but he was one seventy. Something's really amiss. Like, we should accept the thought that maybe we're not reading it right, to Nathaniel's point. Like, is it possible that it was actually intended to communicate something else? Because, like, glaring problems in scripture would have been vented out.

So Like, a long time ago. So do you think that means that, like let's let's say that the one twenty isn't what what how it's interpreted that that that humans can live longer than one twenty, which they have been. There's been, you know, some cases here and there. But, like, could we all reach one seventy five and our diet and exercise regimen is just so poor that no one's make Better be funny based on the way that you left out. I don't know if it's true. What was it called? Canopy theory. Oh, of of the of the, like, the waters? Yeah. So, like, the idea is that, like, before the flood, there's this canopy of water that surrounded the earth. Uh-huh. And that's where the flood came from, is right, because it hadn't rained before. And because of that, it created an ideal environment for, like you know, you get Methuselah and all these people living for 700, 900 years old. It gives this ideal environment for people who live a long, long time. Because, like, the UV rays couldn't get through? I guess. I don't know. But also, like, they they think there's some sort of, you know, side effects. But also, you know, people just like like Moses lived a long time.

Abraham, you know, people that the lord selects, you know, they just get to live a a long healthy life. Yeah. And and they they weren't making trans fats back then. Yeah. No trans fats They're making goaties. Straight Mediterranean diets. Yeah. Bun buns. I don't know what that is. Is that a bunny? Yeah. That wasn't biblical. I don't know. Bunnies aren't in the Bible. I that that They're not? I don't think they existed. They don't they don't part the hoof. They don't part the hoof. That changes the Easter story completely. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Alright. Alright. So wait. Anything I'm trying to think of anything else that'd be worth worth building. I mean, has anybody ever attempted to to to provide,

a Garden of Eden type of setting? It's not really well described except for it's plentiful. And now there's there's some kind of half naked baby garden swinging swords. Yeah. Like a flaming sword dude and a decent looking tree. That's probably the best you can do. Yeah. I'm not sure. What what like, let me ask you this. Is there any part, that that you would think, hey, I'd like to see that?

That would even if it's like a landmark or something. I would like a historical view of the the temple ground. The original. The original from like wasn't that where Abraham

wait. I'm making some sense. You think about Moriah? Like like the multiple things happened like on the ground or or the the threshing what am I thinking of? Was it Jephthah? I I don't know. There's multiple stories have happened like at the actual ground where the temple ultimately came. Yeah. That'd be kinda cool to see the all the little scenes that happened, and then it became a temple, and then, you know, just Like a time lapse of that ground over, like, a thousands of years, and then, like, key things that showed up. Because wasn't it several things? It seems like through my studies, they were I'm like, hey. That's where the temple is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know what would be cool is if, like, you did have a time lapse of, like, just a spot, like, in the desert or whatever, and you got to watch it. And but no no event actually happened there, but, like, here goes Abraham. You know? And, like, time lapses And then Jacob comes by, like, two hundred years. There's Jacob. You just get to see him rolling by. I'd like to see that, it would be cool to do an interactive,

Jacob wrestling with God deal with the with the angel. Right? So, like like, an interactive? Like like, you get in there and VR against the towards the animals. The viewers in there. Yeah. Yeah. That would be cool. Or the or the or the Jacob's Ladder. Yeah.

That would be cool. The the well. Yeah. That that, you know, eventually ends up in Samaria. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They could have a game like whack a mole where where where you're looking at Abraham's wells and, like, half of them don't have no water in them or they're contested by Abimelech. And so Abimelech pops up like, no well for you. Actually, yeah, that'd be kind of fun if it was like an old school video game and all of a sudden, like, this this green screen of Abimelech shows up and he's like, dude, this is my well. Yeah. This is my well. Move on from here. You're too powerful. Yeah. I'll put all but you can bury your wife in my cave for $10,000. Or you could just dig wells. You know, like with a shovel. Yeah. That's true. You just start digging a hole. You could totally convince a bunch of kids that, like, this is a sweet game called dig the well. Like, And, you fly them out to Africa and put them in a bunch of high enough villages where they need wells and be like, you win.

I feel like that's playing, like, the who can be quiet the longest game. Yeah. Yeah. Or, like, count the stars. Count God's blessings, kids. Go ahead. Count the stars in the sky. Sucker. I just want I just want a lollipop. Okay. Hey. Maybe if if you're someone who says, hey. You know, you don't have to keep it to Genesis, but maybe let's go with Old Testament. Like, what would you like to see? What about Jericho?

Like, with the wall Maybe you could storm it. Like, they they take a group of people through and you all get the and the drums, and then all of a sudden this big wall, like, blows up or something. Okay. That'd be fun. I've Sounds like an expensive project. I would do it Ken Ham would have to raise a lot of money to build a wall every day. Build the wall again. They could just have it go down real cheesy like into the ground. Yeah. It seems like it would have the same effect. You blow the horn, and then you hear.

They were Those hydraulics? I never pictured it that way. Yep. Boy, Mike, you're you're, like, two feet away from being a guy at Disney. You can be an Imagineer. People won't be mystified. They blow the horn and three and a half minutes later, it's gone. We'll we'll set up a bunch of smoke to hide the Cleanse up nice. To hide the electronic wall that leaves. I'm what we'll do with lasers.

Alright. I probably shouldn't help with this. Maybe tarpable is the best way to go. Alright. Anyway, hey. Let us know on the complaint lines. (515) 517-0085. Let us know what would you like to, what would you like to be able to see. You could pick any scene or landmark or something from the old testament, what would you wanna take a look at? Alright. I'll be thinking about this the rest of the show. So so Nathaniel and I were talking on our way here. We we both were at the Menards,

the home improvement store on, on Sunday. I was there to buy and the lumber. Nathaniel was there to pick up stuff from us that we brought for his family. And so both of us had an encounter with a gentleman who was walking around the Menards parking lot claiming to have blown out a tire on the road and trying to solicit cash to help him out with this tire. Now he followed me up,

and, I I put a big show on it. And I said, oh, man. That sounds rough. I'd like to help you. Let me check and see if I have any cash. I don't generally carry cash. If I had some in there, I actually was gonna give it to him. I didn't have any cash in there. And so I said, sorry, man. I just don't have anything. And then I kept on walking. And he hits up Nathaniel. Nathaniel, when you run into him at that time, what did you say to him? I said, I don't have any cash. Sorry. Yeah. But that's I didn't put on a show about it because I know I didn't have any cash. Yeah. And so what I do have, I give you in the name of Jesus, get up and walk. Yeah. Yes. I said that's pretty good. I'm already walking. Sorry. Thanks. It's the car that I got the problem with, sir. Silver and gold, I don't have. Yeah. And so

he I I saw him when I came back out of the Menards, he was still trolling the parking lot looking for help. And I said, this is this is this guy. He's really after it. And, I take my family to Walmart, which is just down the road there. And I went into the store and came back out, and I saw him again. He's hunting around the Walmart parking lot trying to shuffle up some money. So I ran into him twice, did not part ways with any cash. Nathaniel, on the other hand, saw him a second time. And what happened the second time? The second time, I I suppose he did not recognize me even though I was wearing the same shirt and same hat and had the same vehicle Mhmm. Mhmm. As the first time. But he

gave the same solicitation. And I was like, well, you know, don't have anything else going on today at all. I was thinking through my day, and I said, I don't have anything. So I could probably take this guy to go get a tire. Yeah. So I said, listen, pal. Let's go get a tire. He said, well, I already have somebody, you know, somebody said they'd give me a ride over there.

To, like, the Wrench and Go. Wrench and Go. Yeah. He's like, well, yeah. The the this other place doesn't have used tires. I was gonna get it, but they don't have any. So I was just gonna go to the Wrench and Go. I was like, okay. Let's go to the Wrench and Go then. I can follow you over there. And he said, well, the can you I don't wanna, you know, give you a hassle or whatever. Can you just call him and give you your card number, and and then I can go down there and get a tire? And I'll honest be with you. I felt a little uncomfortable with that. Yeah. I think that's fair. I don't know why. And so I was like, well, I don't know. You know, it's kind of a pull apart place. I'm not sure what their policy is on on just handing your card number over the over the phone. I don't know if they do that sort of thing. And so then he he switched it up on me. He changed he changed the game. He said, well, I'm also I'm in the I'm in the Motel six right now because of this whole ordeal, me and my kids.

I know that you can call them over the phone. Could you call and and hook me up with a room for tonight? And so then I had to think about it real tough tough hard like because I wanted to help this fella out. He sounded like he was in a rough spot. So, by way, so far, Dan, Mike, what do you think? Odds of a scam. One to 10. Pretty high. 11. Yeah. K. Dan says eleven. Mike, I already have a room, but can you call and get me a room? Wait a minute. Okay. So I figured, you know, here's what I'll do. I thought it out in my brain. I came up with a genius scheme.

I said, I will A counterscheme. A counterscheme. Did you know your warranty's about to expire? You're gonna be impressed. Nathaniel's gonna scheme a schemer. Okay. So what I said, here's what I'd do for you, my friend. It looks like you're gonna be here for a minute. And he said, yeah. And I said, I will go to the Walmart, which is right across the street, and I will get you a prepaid Visa gift card. And with that prepaid Visa gift card, you can buy yourself a tire, or you can go buy yourself a a room at the at the Motel six. Zing. Nathaniel got him. Whichever you choose. Yeah. I figured, you know, this

Visa gift card will not be worth much on the streets. Yeah. He may be able to get half price for it. Sure. At the very least, he you know, if he's into booze and that sort of thing, he could probably procure that. Sure. Which is not a great deal, but, you know, at least it's not the cocaine or whatever. Yeah. Yeah. We like to do levels of Yeah. Of depravity. Absolutely. I was just trying to rationalize it. It smells like the cocaine. Okay. So so Nathaniel's hit up with this guy. He hit me twice. I I I I pushed him off. Nathaniel escaped him once. Time number two, he's in. He's got him in for $75.

And and Dan, Mike, you say high chance of a ski. Alright. Nathaniel, what happens the next day? Today, I was getting an alignment at the Big O Tire. Which is very close to both the Barnards and the Walmart. Yeah. And I was sitting down there fiddling around my phone playing the the the Bible memory verse game. Angry Birds. Angry Birds. No. I was I downloaded this app. It's the Bible Memory Verse, and it lets you type it out. I've been trying it. It's it's actually pretty good. And then this guy who I met the day previous waltz in

and is is trying to get a tire there at the Big O with with money that he, I assume, procured yesterday. So so scam? Not a scam. So he's actually legit looking for the what happened to the go the Wrench and Go, the cheap used tire? I I think he might have brought one with him. I'm not sure. Well, he now is buying top shelf tires from the Big O. Yeah. Okay. I don't know. All I know is I didn't really look into him. I just

I happened to glance up, and I said, that's the guy from yesterday. And then I said, well, get on. And I went back to whatever I was doing. Here's the deal. If you're gonna panhandle of the the wanting a tire, and you show up at the Big O next day and are actually getting a tire or at least tire services. Yeah. You can color me surprised. I thought he was just gonna take the Visa gift card, and he must have gone with the hotel room for the night. Must have. So so here's what I thought when Nathaniel told that story is I thought I got got, I did not help a guy

because I was worried that he was a scammer. And the thing is is that, like, you run the risk and I feel like we've talked about this before, but you run the risk of not helping legitimately because you're afraid of being defrauded by illegitimate people. And I'm not sure that you can actually sort that out all the time.

And so, like, maybe it's just maybe what it made me think was is that, like, I we were tied up yesterday. My whole family was with me. And so it would have been a little bit difficult, but, like, I mean, I could have followed the guy. If he says, look, my car is just over here and it broke down, like, I don't know. It's it's probably validatable within a few two to three minutes to drive over and check and see, does he got a bum tire? You know, that kind of thing. And so I I I guess if if we always don't help because we are concerned that we're being ripped off, there that means there's tons of people who actually need help who won't get it because of that concern.

I think I think that's fair. Actually, I I like Nathaniel's approach here because, like, the problem is is, like, you like to play arbiter in a in a case by case basis. And 10 out of ten, nine out of 10, you go over and the guy says, I need a new tire. You're like, okay. I'll get you the tire. And you get him a tire and and and and let's say he gets to the car and then he's like, oh, I forgot it's completely out of gas. Well, get the tire, I need gas. You're like, well, I guess we'll get the gas too. And And then we gotta buy the can because you didn't bring your gas can with you. So now you're in for a can and the gas and the tire. And then he gets there. He's like, man, I would just wish we had a spare couple of bucks my kids haven't eaten. You're like, holy cow. This is a never ending string of whatevers. I'm screwed. And so, like, it makes way more way more sense to show up with the x amount of dollars and go, here, man. Make the best decision for what you got going on. Like, I you're not gonna be able to fix all of his woes in one single swoop.

Right? But, like, you can say here, this will give you some options. Pick and choose what you wanna do. That was it was it was pretty that's that's not a bad thought. Yeah. I just and, like, it made me think that I I think you should show the right amount of caution and do your best. But, like, I would I would hate to I felt I felt like, hey, man. I wasn't generous, because I was afraid of being taken advantage of. And, like, this guy

this guy was, like, hustling the parking lot. You know, he's walking up to straight he must've I bet he asked 50 people, you know, and trying to get someone to help him and his family because his car was broken down. If you knew that was legitimate, it's like you had every confidence it was it was legitimate, I can't imagine I wouldn't have helped. Hey, man. Guy's in a city that's not his he's he's they're driving through town. He's got his kids with him. They got nowhere to stay. They don't know anybody around here, and his tire's broken on a Sunday afternoon. Like, slam dunk, I'm probably in. But because because I was afraid that the guy was a was a grifter It's because he's going about it superficially. I don't here's the deal. How could you do it? How could you do it if you didn't know anybody? If you don't have enough money to buy the tire, then you have money to get to put gas in your car to get to wherever you were going in the first place. Right? If you if you're, like, if you're stranded and not in your hometown and you're on your way to somewhere else, let's say you get the tire, that means you didn't have enough money to even put gas in the car to get to where you were going. I don't know, Mike. You I think you've lived with more money in your pocket for longer than you think. Like, if you get if you're in in for a $100 for a new tire,

like, that's that's not, gas to go down and see your grandparents four hours away. Yeah. Probably. I was expecting they might give you some on the way back to get you home. Like, I it's like some people can live that tight. No. That's true. Anyway, Nathaniel ashamed me and Dan. Dan still would've given me the money.

Yeah. I'm still I'm still leery. Dan's not gonna do it. He thinks he was the big O'Tayo just in case any of the 50 people were looking the day after. I think they're partners. See, now I was recently He did cahoots with the big o. So I thought I thought to myself, you know, I've been thinking about this recently, where there I I see people, and I think to myself, I would like to help this fella, but I'm not sure if he will, he'll he'll be honest with the the funds that I give him. Yeah. Plus, don't carry cash. And at that moment, well, the first time I saw him, I was like, hey. I don't have any cash. And also, I don't know the the PIN number to my debit card. I can't remember it. Right. I never use it. I always hit credit. Like, I'm like a dummy. I've living on the edge three years. No one's caught on yet. Exactly.

It's like magic. So that's why I came up with this this great idea for the for the Visa. I said, well, I mean, Visa's got me out because there's a $499.09 surcharge to buy these cards. Yeah. I was like, well, whatever. Visa gets a little bit off the top. But I thought to myself, I could buy, you know, some some Taco Bell gift cards or something. Like, you can't do anything other than buy Taco Bell with a Taco Bell gift card. Yeah. Yeah. True. And Taco Bell gift card, you know, they've got the $5 big box deal. Yeah. You can stretch it. Yeah. You guys got worldly woes. You might as well have a stomachache and diarrhea to go with it. Exactly. I suppose it goes back to the principle that we always talk about. The, obviously, people can't scam you out of money that you were just willing to get rid of anyway. That's exactly what I was saying. Because we were talking about that a few weeks ago at church, and I thought that that's what was going through my head when I was when I was walking to Walmart.

Yep. I was like, well, I mean, if this is gonna happen, well, it's it's gonna be okay. Right. And then I prayed on it that night, and I was like, I hope, God, that he choose to do some good things with that. Yeah. Right. His behavior doesn't get to dictate yours. You're generous regardless if they're gonna make I mean, here's the thing. It's not like your lack of generosity is gonna stop them from drinking if that's what they're gonna do with it. Right? Like, if you don't give money, they're gonna figure this thing out. They they you know, they're and so, like and and maybe your generosity changes something, maybe it doesn't. But, like, their behavior doesn't get to control your behavior. And so, yeah. I think that's solid. I don't know. Did I tell you guys that that that I took that guy out to go fix his tire? Did I tell you that, like, a month or so ago? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The guy on your porch. Yeah. The guy that was in my porch and Yeah. Like, at, like, three in the morning or whatever. So I'll probably hear about next week. Yeah. Yeah. So it's the same principle. Right? Of course, when I'm driving the guy out to go fix his tire, he starts talking about some real seedy stuff like I'm a I'm a distributor. I'm like a distributor of what? I'm just I run a distributing business out of my house. I'm like, what? Distributing business? This don't sound legit. And it's four in the morning, and you're on my porch. And this whole this whole this whole thing is shifty. It's all get out. You know? And I thought but, I mean, if the Lord can have me die in this truck because I went and took a a weird what I assumed to be drug dealer out to to get his car out of the ditch, I mean, what am I gonna do? You know? Like, I did it, and it was fine. And, actually, I was I mean, I I caught a lot of flack for it, but, otherwise, it was it was well meaning, you know?

But did you read that that that bi vocational pastor thing dad said? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Do do you wanna do you have the do you have it up? Yeah. It's it's long though. Okay. Here we go. It's a this article. It is what is a bivocational pastor plus 10 tips if you are one. Uh-oh. What is a bivocational pastor? Oh, no. It's gonna it's gonna define it for us in the first line. The bivocational pastor is one of the most unique, gifted, and selfless individuals in the capital c church. That's because they serve churches that can't compensate them with full time pay, or they choose to stay in another job to save the church money. I'm not sure that's actually true. I don't so I'm by I suppose by vocational, although I'd actually don't take any money for the the church part, so I think I still only have one vocation. But, like, I I it's neither of those.

You you don't think it's, they serve churches that can't compensate them? Right. No. Your church probably could. I think that they could. Yeah. Or and or you stay in that job to save money for the church. No. It's yeah. It's not a monetary thing. Actually, the and I think that the article will get to some of this, but I think there there there are benefits beyond monetary. Okay. Some sometimes churches offer a small salary, so the pastor either lives on a meager budget or juggles a second job. Often, however, there's no salary at all. Many pastors work full time to support themselves and their families while carrying all the responsibilities of a staff pastor. And the numbers of churches with bivocational pastors are increasing. In his article, the hidden truth behind bivocational ministry, Matt Hensley affirms that bivocational ministry is growing. We're gonna call it the BM from here on out. That's not bad. That's that's not good right there. He says it's far more common than most really understand. In fact, a recent LifeWay research study found that 20 per 26%

of pastor pastors said they were BM. Stop that. That needs to stop. But even though more and more men and women consider themselves BM, it's it's not a new concept.

Here we go. BMs were common back in the nineteen fifties when churches began to Everybody was having when churches began to encourage and support paid pastors, and many denominations began to prioritize seminary education. But before that shift, Dennis Bickers says many ministers served churches as the people moved west, supporting themselves as farmers, store owners, school teachers, and many other occupations.

So, is that true in the in the flow of, like, pastoral care? Is it

is it a new thing that it's a full time job? Like, we look back in the Old Testament or whatever, and we look like the the keepers of the temple and the Levites or whatever, and we go, that's a full time gig. But, like, New Testament on I mean, like, the Catholic church, they've always had full time Sure. People. Probably more than taking talking to small

congregational Protestant Which was most which was most churches, right, until, you know, a hundred years or so? Last year? Three or four churches, you know, the circuit preacher, you know, they take a little offering and Yeah. Right. And each town, like, had a church. That probably wasn't, like, enough to live on, I doubt. Right. Right. Right. And and yes, Mike, like, weren't 10 churches. There ain't 10 Christian churches in the city. Like, the church was the church in that city. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Okay. So it says, however, the birth of BMs goes back even further to the apostle Paul who supported himself financially by making tents. Scripture tells us that when he was in Corinth blah blah blah blah blah tents, in his book, the tent making pastor oh, go boy. Bickers writes that Paul continued to make tents as he traveled from city to city so he would not be a financial burden on those he ministered to.

Why? Hey. That's funny because that story's from the Bible. Why would we need to attribute it to Bickers? Why would we say the Corinthians book says this? Yeah. That's Here's another guy telling a bible story. Like Paul said of his own life. And he also gives Sylvanus and Timothy as both examples of bivocational pastors in the New Testament. Mhmm. So here we go. Is there a benefit for churches to have a bivocational pastor? Small churches that can't afford a full time pastor tend to experience instability. Leadership can come and go like the wind. But when blessed with a bivocational pastor, they can increase their ministry to their people and the community without depleting their often limited budgets. So is this

I I suppose we got to read the rest of the article here, but, like, do they believe that the main reason that's good to have a bivocational pastor is is money? It all has to circle around phones. I think that's a lot of it. Yes. I think that's a lot of it. Wait here. Why don't you read all the read just read all of them, like the titles of the Okay. Here we go. Things. Yeah. Here's the titles. Yeah. Well, they're all questions, and then he answers them. Okay. Oh, no. No. Here we go. No. Yeah. They are. Oh, here's the 10 tips. Yeah. 10 tips. Yeah. Okay. 10 tips for bivocational pastors and ministers. Establish some ground rules and holding to them tightly can make it a joy to work as a bivocational, a BM, for the long haul. If you are Manage your time. If you are a BM, here are 10 tips for surviving, thriving. Okay. One, be sure of your calling. The need will always be there, and, yes, anyone with a heartbeat can answer it. However, feeling the need is different from answering the call. Be sure of what you sense God is asking you before committing to the church. If you've been a bivocational pastor for some time, pray and evaluate your decision periodically to ensure that it's still where God is positioning you. I had a guy did I tell you this before? That, like, I'm I'm a little bit more squidgy on this one,

on on God calling, God calling pastors. Like, I'm not sure it requires a a holy moment. Mhmm. And I remember saying that and talking with it. If it was on another interview that somebody from another podcast was doing and, like, I mean,

I feel like his respect for me dropped by about half by saying that because I think because I think he had, had a very high view of pastors now he was a pastor. And so whatever this calling business is, it related to him, in such a way. And so if there was someone but, basically, the impression kinda was that I'm an impostor. Like,

if I didn't have, like, a god, like like a blue Blues Brothers in the church moment on on being a pastor like, what what the explanation I gave to him, was that, like, I think I knew that I, I think I always thought that I was supposed to be a missionary or something since I was little. And I said, god continued to put people in my life that encouraged me down a path that I would never have got to on my own. Dan included. And Dan, in fact, Dan, and so

I I I don't I don't know why I would look at, look at that as, like, god has put community around me to get me on the path that he he would want me to be on as as less holy as a whatever what do they mean by calling? I just was a I would call that a calling, though. You just didn't know it. I mean, it was like you weren't hearing it. Or I mean but it was there. Yeah. And other people saw it. Right. So the like but that's like, a lot of time these I I think I get the impression for these guys who are like, hey. Like, I was called into pastoral leadership. Like, there's something elevated about this notion that I think is maybe just not it doesn't have to be as as sexy as all that. And, like, I'm just not Well, I mean, I suppose it depends on what what people are have in mind, like, what they define as a pastor. Like, we expect an awful lot out of, like, a modern day pastor. Right? Like, he's just not the teaching guy. He's also the counselor, the business manager, and, like, all these other things, you know, that that that

may or may not be supported biblically. Like, maybe the guy is just supposed to be teaching the Bible and leading people to Jesus. And, you know, we expect him to run a major corporation of a giant church or whatever, even a medium sized church. Right? Like, making business decisions and also doing preaching and and running all your programs and stuff, and then doing, like, counseling sessions with people. Like, we're asking a lot out of a guy whether he's tuned that way or not. I've met plenty of pastors that are and plenty of them that are like, god has them teaching, and they should probably teach and probably not be in the middle of the finances or whatever. You know? Mhmm. And I suppose what's that? Oh, no. No. No. Nothing. No. I'll wrap it up. Sorry. Okay. No. Yeah. So the first one here, Ben, talk more. Go ahead. Be sure of your calling. Make sure you're basically, they're prefacing it, like, know what you're getting into because it's gonna be tough. Here we go. K. Set

priorities. Likely, you've got more to do than hours in the day will allow. Prioritize what's most important and release tasks you simply can't get to. Okay. Manage your time. That's true for everybody. Okay? Yeah. Right. Number three, strive for balance. Manage your time. Number four, give yourself margin. Manage your time. Okay. Got it. Number five, don't do everything yourself. Okay. This this one's probably worth landing on. I this is one of the reasons I actually think, bivocational pastoring is helpful if you otherwise can't seem to figure out a way to lead people in this. But, like,

the the church has to be the church. And when when the pastor becomes a role, people do start defaulting what is otherwise Christian behavior to the king Christian, to the guy who gets the paycheck. And, like, you're not it's not why we're paying a guy. We're paying the guy because, god has tasked him to take responsibility for this group of people, and to make frankly, try to make sure his time is freer than others to pick up where the rest of the church may not be able to do it. But, like, I don't expect the pastor to be the first guy at the bedside of anybody, to be honest, shy of his own family. He's you probably have someone unless he's your friend, direct friend. Because otherwise, like, you should have other close people within the church, that are doing those types of types of things.

And so I I think it's it's probably not like, if if you you can't get people to think of it the right way, if they have to think of it through the lens of by vocation and say, look, man. I'm working too. You can't just default to me. But, like, frankly, that'd be a real heavy handed way to go about it. I think there's a heart issue and a teaching issue and a recognition of your responsibility in the world to try to get people to actually look at that in a healthy way. Number six, schedule a study and sermon prep time. Manage your manage your time. Yeah. I can't I I actually have a real hard time sorry. I'm answering these because I I feel like this applies to me. This was a this was a shift,

and this was even true like, finding time to study to teach is hard. I I do actually the vast majority of my stuff, it feels like I'm craving. I do it, like, on Saturday nights. I don't have any other margin in the rest of my week. I always tried to do it earlier. And to be honest, because I'm studying so fast, I will forget most of the stuff that I intended to teach on, and I don't have time to do a manuscript or anything. And so, like, I would say vast majority of my stuff is is Saturday. And that was a sacrifice for, like, my wife. Like, to know that most of your Saturday nights, unless we've carved out time to do something at some other point, I'm busy Saturday nights studying. And so that that is, that's probably the most tangible sacrifice I would say that comes with being a for me, being a bible vocational pastor is is knowing that Saturdays aren't available to me. And then frankly, that the the off chance that I ever get sick on a Saturday night and I'm hosed, there's Mhmm. There is no rescue. That's all I got.

I got caught with that once, early on. I was bi vocational Yeah. For for quite a number of years. And, I went out Saturday to the beach, and and I fried myself. No. No. You know, and it was Saturday night at sermon time. I was like, I couldn't move. I couldn't think. I couldn't you know, I had to get somebody to preach for me. Yeah. That's embarrassing. What so Dan, I I can't remember. What what like, when you were bi vocational, what what else like, was it the same time you were selling the Christmas trinkets?

Or, like, what else did you do? Okay. The first I was spent six years at a church on the East Side. I was going to school full time, college full time, but also was working over forty hours a week at a factory library binding service. Oh, okay. So I was like kinda triple time and stuff. But it was young. I was 20, you know? Right. Twenty twenty to 26. And That felt doable. It was very yeah. And we had no children yet. So it was Cheryl and I walking the streets of the East Side knocking on doors saying, hey, do you wanna do a Bible study? I mean, we did all that stuff. And yeah. Yeah. So but it was I mean, you had to really watch your time, and often, like you say, Saturday night was like, that's the soonest I could get to Yeah. Because I was doing homework or doing work or Yep. The whole thing.

Okay. So so library binding service. And then when you left when you left the East Side, did you did you get a full time gig after that, or did you still Yeah. Yeah. I went to Atlantic, and that was full time. But even then, I I did, like, little things, like paper routes and Yeah. You know. And so that that didn't really count that as, like, bivocational. Gotcha. Okay. Do you feel like there's a tangible benefit to not not one over the other. Right? But, like Yeah. What would you say are are the tangible benefits that are not money related to having a bivocational pastor? Yeah. Oh, it it keeps you grounded.

I can tell you right now. I'm I'm not bivocational right now, but I started washing dishes for some people in our church that own Steamboat Boys. Uh-huh. And I was over there one day, and they were just desperate because they can't find help. Know? Oh, yeah. Yeah. All the restaurants, of them were closing because I couldn't find help. And they're like they were just I could just see it in their eyes. They were just hurting. And I thought, man, if we were Amish, we'd like build your barn for you if it burned down, but we you didn't you know, you have a restaurant. Right. I thought, well, I can just come and eat, which I was doing that day, but I was like, well, that doesn't help you with staff. I was like, here's the deal. I I will I will if if it will help you, I'll I'll wash dishes. I want to get the lowest thing, you know? Yep. And I will do it just long. I don't want to take anybody's job. I'll do it just long until you can find somebody. Right? And so I've only done it a handful of times. I think Sunday

night was probably my last time because they're fully staffed now. Oh, nice. Yeah. Good. But all that to say, the great conversations I've I've had with with people I would never know. I mean I mean, the gut of a restaurant washing dishes, doing the slime job, and they all know why I'm there is really to help them. Yeah. I mean, it wasn't you know, it's to give them a break.

And, like, the guy took place, took his place or no. Well, I I allowed him to rest. He was working before I came in yesterday, and and he just I mean, he's just I almost was crying. He just says, thank you. You know? Blah blah blah. But it's a lot of Jesus talk too. Yeah. It's my point. Yeah. That I would never have I did Target for a year or two. Can't remember how long. Same thing. I've been working nights, and I could that you probably could call that bookkeeping. You know, was like thirty to thirty five hours a week. Yeah. I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. But lots of conversations I would never have. You know, you kinda get in your little bubble if you're just a little preacher guy in an office and sitting out at the coffee shops, you know, whatever, doing the stuff you

So I love it. I actually love it. Yeah. I've considered just kinda doing something different and and doing Sunday stuff, but also Yeah. Getting a job just for that reason. I was thinking about this this week. Like, and and you guys would be able to answer this probably better than me. But I was thinking about, like, some of the the Christian bands that tour around or, like, you know, the the the speakers and and even full time pastors is like, do you think it is easier do you think it is is easier to maintain your Christian faith when you are surrounded

by other Christians all the time or you're not? Right? Like, like, if you were let let's say that you were you were a traveling, Christian musician band or worship band or something. Right? Like, you could legit kinda fall away from the faith, and most people might not even notice. Right? Because you're still parading around as a worship band. Right? Right. But then again, you could go to a regular forty hour a week job where, you know, no one you work at is is a Christian. And so, like, it's it's no one's holding you up to any standard anyway. You know? So, like, do you think it it it offers the same risks for people that that are both encapsulated by it's your job? You work for the church. You're surrounded probably by Christians most of the time that have the same world view as you. Do you think that's any different, any harder

than, you know, people who are out, just working at a a regular gig, not for the ministry? I think it depends on how you carry yourself at. Like, if you're a regular gig man. Like, if people know that you're a Jesus guy, then when you do things that aren't Jesus like, they they really like to call you out on it. Right. I know this from experience. A perceived standard of what they think Jesus people should be like. Yeah. Yeah. What what did you do, Nathaniel? Well, what happened was is

This woman you gave me. No. No. No. So I I mean, they the the when I was working at three m, everybody knew that I went to Bible College, and I actually got a BM degree. Yeah. And

they one day Was that your number two degree or your number one? Well, it was two. I had two degrees. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can't remember what all happened. I think

there was two of the managers who were recently promoted who used to be just regular wrench turners like I was,

and they had gone off to some sort of job fair or something at one of the community colleges. And so it was me and one other fella who liked to sit on his butt there that day. And so I was doing a lot of running around,

turning wrenches, and getting stressed out and answering phone I the managers were gone, so I was answering all the phone calls. And they came they came back from this job fair, then he was all chipper and whatever. Hey. How's it going? And I I said some things that might have been some naughty words. Yeah. Big words. You gave him the salty language. Yeah. But not like like it just came out. I didn't like mean to like, that this guy. And like he like took a step back and he was like, woah. Yeah. Things must be rough.

And then he was like, is that your favorite Jesus talking like? And I was like, you know, you're right. It's not and I I, yeah, I should've taken a step back. Okay. But that happened on on that was one occasion. But, I mean, just anything like that. Numerous occasions you saw pizza. Not numerous occasions. Okay. Nathaniel got a flagpole in front of his house with some expletives on us.

Christian flag underneath. So Nathaniel answered. Do you have an answer for that? Like, has it have I done that? No. No. Do do you do you have do you think that it's easier either way to either be in full time ministry and maintain your faith and maintain it well or outside? No. I actually think so I have limited experience. I think, like, I was in full time ministry for, what, I think, like, six months or something. It it wasn't very long. Back to that money conversation. It was a good six months. It wasn't there. But but

here here's what I think. I think your faith for me, my faith feels maintain realer, maintained when it's when it feels like it's doing something.

And it's probably it's not fair to act like the the work of a full time pastor is often doing. Like, they're often doing something. There's tangible things that they are doing. But, like, something that feels like it's maintaining a structure

together just doesn't feel like that way to me. Like and so then I feel then I think I I would that would be harder for me to maintain my faith because then it would feel like I'm just doing it as a job. And I don't know, Dan. Have you ever had that experience where it felt like being a full time pastor got feeling like just a job as opposed to like a calling or something that God has you doing expressing in your life? I can't think of a time I mean, there's good times and bad times and hard times and wonderful times, but I can't think of a time I've ever looked at it as just what I do. I mean, like a job. I mean, I look at it as what I do, but not as like, well, I'm going to work. I've never thought of it as I'm going to work.

It's just I'm living my faith, and isn't this cool? I get to do it. I mean, I get to you can live your faith anyway. But I mean Yeah. I get to spend so much time thinking and focusing and meeting with people and doing things that I wouldn't be able to do if I were doing something else. So I could have guaranteed that that was true for you. If someone were to ask me because like, we've we've read like like things in the past where like, you've got pastors who don't even believe what's in the Bible. Yeah. You've got guys who are frustrated because of this their job and that they get irritated with all kinds of different stuff in the infrastructure. If you would ask me whether that's true, I would have told you a 100% Dan Hudson doesn't look at things that way. I actually think you probably are more unique than is

Probably. That's too bad. Yeah. Yeah. Right? Because that that's the right. That's that's the right way for it to be. Like, I I would fear being one of the other dudes that I would somehow feel it would feel like a job to me. And so, like, the the the mixture of, of being around where my faith is called into what feels like action in trenches is important. And it's a that's a that's false because, like, a full time pastor, it's or, like, people who are around Christian people all the time, like, those are still trenches. Christian people are just people, and they bring people problems with them. There's different tensions. Yes. One is I'm in the cesspool, and the other is I'm trying to lead people to help people in the cesspool. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If that makes sense, you know? Yep. And and but they all yeah. They have different tensions and different

challenges. I I like I like, like, the bible, occasional, I I like the something about hanging out, like, in in the kitchen of a restaurant, every third word's the f bomb, and

the drugs and, you know, all this all this stuff, the people's lifestyle they're talking about. You know, I as opposed to the ivory little palace that I can be in that that's Right. The people wouldn't dare mess with world all day. So so there's different strengths and different you know, it's like the the tree needs, to be in the windstorms once in a while to to be strong. Otherwise, you just gotta fall. Can't be in the windstorm all the time because it won't survive. Right. Right. So I don't know. Interesting. Okay.

Last couple. Last couple three here. One, find a mentor. Seek the wisdom of others who have committed their lives to this special calling and glean from what they've learned along the way. I I would say that I think you should do that. I just wouldn't limit it to other people, bled or bivocational. The work of the pastor is the work of the pastor. I think you can learn a lot from people who have, who are doing it full time. Because, like, what what all you're saying is you're trying to do in a shorter in a in a more compressed amount of time what they're doing in Wait. Here's the thing. It's not even a compressed amount of time. Most pastors who are working full time like that, there's not like they're putting in a forty hour week and then clocking in or out. Like, people can still call it odd hours. You'll end up talking to people for long periods of time. Somebody wants to get baptized. I mean, you are dropping stuff because you want in on it. Like,

and so, their their lives are not so different, in fact, at all that, I would say that you only get that from bivocational folks. And as a matter of fact, that, like, I I I'm I'm pretty sure, you know, good pastors who are full time, like, they understand what you're trying to compress. They have they have a perspective that I think can be helpful for you. So, yeah, I I think it's right to have a mentor. I just wouldn't limit it to bivocational. I think that's there's no reason to cut cut the leg off the stool.

And last word of advice, use Bible software to aid in sermon prep and give you some time back. Try to cut that Bible sermon prep down. Yeah. You know, I can't do it anymore. I haven't used I haven't used software for a number of years because I get it there's too much. Like, I'll spend, it's too much time. I'll follow a word down 50 different paths, and, like, there's so many resources. Like, it gives me a a false perception that, like, how do I know if I'm teaching the right thing when there's, like, 48 other other books that I haven't read that don't have this? And, like, ignorance is bliss. I find when I when I'm gonna teach a sermon series on, I go by by book, I find at least two commentaries, but no more than three.

And generally of different levels, like, some are, like, very technical and some are are almost bible study ish. Like, you would lead a Sunday school because, like, those I will miss. I will teach the detailed thing and then miss that, like, most people read this, apply it to their lives in some very much more shallow way, and I'll just bypass it. And so, I only put them on my shelf, and then I don't look anything else up. I don't do Internet searches. I don't do logos. It's too it's too much. I just I do I do a lot of research to make sure I get what feel like the right mix of commentaries, and then I gotta drop it. I can't I can't I gotta stay out of the weeds. Ben disagrees with you, Ed Stitzer. Stitzer trying to sell me logos.

I think I still have it. Like, I even still have it, and it already has, like, 5,000 books in it. That's too many. I also can't read on the computer. Yeah. I don't like that either. Yeah. Actually, there's a couple of books on Genesis I wanna I wanna borrow. Do you I'll I will talk to you later. Okay. I might I might have them on the logos. You ready? We gotta do a couple of life from the past? Yeah. Yeah. Let's do it. Yeah. Pay you. No. Let's do it. Dear life. Dear life. Life from the past. I need a hype man. It's time for dear life from the past

with Dear life from the past. Papa. My my husband and I have been together almost twenty years. When we first started dating, I would have an occasional drink. Yeah. He said he chewed tobacco, but I never saw him do it. We agreed that I wouldn't drink and he wouldn't chew. I found out later that he continues to do it about twice a year. I feel misled. He chews tobacco twice a year? Wow. Oh, that's some that's heck of restraint, to be honest. Man. Wow. Okay. Continue on. He doesn't want me to drink because some incidents with his family when he was young. Okay. I pointed out to him that this is controlling, but he insists it's not. There are times I would like to have a drink at family celebrations, and I can't, and it's awkward. Should I really be held to something I agreed to when I was a young 20? Under control.

I mean, there's a couple levels weird that's going on here. One, this man chews tobacco twice a year. He's great at chewing tobacco. Right. I mean, most guys I know that chew tobacco, they can't stop chewing tobacco. They're constantly always carrying an empty bottle with them or they drink their soda real fast because they wanna chew tobacco and they want somewhere to spit it. So they drink soda in under ten seconds or dump it straight out and then then they're chewing tobacco. And this dude could pick up what is the most addictive and nasty legal habit out there. He could pick it up and put it down twice a year all on his own. I find this man extremely impressive.

If he's naive. Yeah. You think he's lying? Like, hey, I know. Twice a year. I I was I was on her wait. I wanna say this wrong. Anyway, there was a corner that turned when when he's holding her to a a promise

and not accepting his own. His hypocrisy is out of line. Yeah. I was on his side until that turn came. And I thought now I'm more on her side. It's like, yeah, have a drink. It's a it's a weird deal. It's a weird, compromise to make. Right? When you say, if you don't do this, I won't do this. Yeah. If

you, gal, if you shouldn't drink because you shouldn't drink because you get out of hand or something, then you probably shouldn't drink and you should it doesn't matter what he's doing. If he's had a bad experience with people

drinking or getting drunk in his past and you love him and you wanna try to be generous to him, then lay down your drinking if you want to. I think you should. Yeah. You're right, though. That puts, maritally, that puts you in a really bad position because, like, the only way you you've you've amped up the disappointment. So now it's not just a, hey, I struggle with I've tried to stop drinking cause I I just wanna get away from it or I really shouldn't chew tobacco and someone in your spouse can encourage you in that. Now you've put them as the heavy and a personal disappointment for getting it wrong Yeah. In the bargain. And now, like, that's the you just don't wanna set your marriage life up with that type of,

with that type of relationship. I don't think that's good. And so I would So what what so let's I I think they're both acting, weirdly, and and and you're you should revisit this conversation that you've had. Yeah. But, like, let's say that your let's say that your spouse does have a nasty habit. Let's say they're a smoker Yeah. And you don't like smokers. Yep. And they don't wanna quit smoking. Now what?

You try to strike a bargain with them? You stop smoking, and I will I mean, do it positively. I'll make you a peanut butter sandwich every day. Every day that you don't smoke, you get peanut butter sandwich. Yeah. You're my lovely bride, you love peanut butter sandwiches. You lay off the sticks, and I'll make it quick.

I mean, there's other ways to incent than peanut butter sandwich. I'm just saying it's an option. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. I, like, I I just one, I think you're better off being someone who is, supporting them in the right decision than you are the heavy on them making the wrong ones. Because, like, when their humanity humanity shows shows up, up, you're you're the the person person they they should be able to come to. And now you're putting in a position where now, like, not only do they not wanna fail, but if they're not gonna come into someone who's gonna support them in getting better, now they're gonna start hiding things from you, like twice a year chew man. And so I straight up impressive. Yeah. It's I I I I'm with Dan. I actually don't I think it's not true.

Which is weird though, because if I were to make the case, which is, oh, it's only a couple times a year, he still went back on his promise. Right. And so, like, he is being hypocritical. I I didn't get the drinking part, though. Did he say it was an incidence with his family? Like, she got drunk in front of his family? He doesn't want me to drink because of some incidence with his family when he was young. Well, it sounds like she didn't have nothing to with it. Oh, okay. I kinda got the impression that she had overdrank sometime and and embarrassed him in front of his family, and so he asked her to stop. But really, there's he just has drinkers in the family. He doesn't like alcohol, so she he doesn't want her to drink. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. That's a little bit different. I mean, the thing is is, like, you knew that was true twenty years ago. You knew he had to deal with drinking. You knew he didn't who didn't wanna be around or didn't cover with him. And you kinda and you married him. Right? And so, like, not saying that he doesn't you know, that that he can't have matured some or be able to take some of this stuff in, but, like,

I mean, it depends on what kind of traumatizing whatever thing happens. Some people just have an aversion to stuff like that because it it brought on so much nasty. And and, you know, you you that's what marriage is. You give and take and you give up a little and say, look, it seems ridiculous and I shouldn't have to do this. It's like being married to an alcoholic. You can't drink. Right? Like, you're not the alcoholic, but you need to be able to help them with the thing they're struggling with, which means you can't have alcohol in the house. And you're like, that's not fair. Well, you're you're laying it down. Right? That's what love is. You're laying down what you thought to be important and what what what you wanted to do for the benefit, love, and support of somebody else. And so, like, on the whole, you've been married to this guy for twenty years, and you knew this was a problem. It's real it's kinda unfair to be upset about it right now.

The the dude, if he once again, if he's doing chewing tobacco twice a year, I think that's fantastic. He's the master of the world. But if he's lying about it, I think that's terrible. He's the bastard of the world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There there ain't no excuse for lying ever, within your marriage. Not a good one, not a small one, not nothing. There's no there's no unless you have a surprise party or something. He needs to give it up because its core, it's deceitful. He's hiding things from his wife. Yeah. He or he needs to live out loud with it. He needs to just be like texting. Hey, I picked up. Can't chew. Yeah. Here's my t shirt. I chew tobacco twice a year. That's right. I mean, every time he buys two, he needs to ding his wife. I picked up two, just so you know. And so it turns out it's three times a week, guys chewing like a fiend. Although, once again, I mean, he's pulling it off so she only finds out twice a year. He's a master of disgust. He's like, go go get it. I don't know what he does with all this chew. Every every other guy I know that that that chews tobacco, I mean, you could smell them from six miles away and every the car is full of it. They got they got a giant cheek popping up all the time, and there's six cans come out of their car door every time they get out. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I would say either so I would say I would just, as opposed to look into who individually is wrong here, I think, my recommendation from a marriage perspective is you need to blow this whole situation up and start over and and say, here's here's what's best for both of us in these situations. How can I be an encouragement to you in getting you to the right thing? Yeah. As opposed to being the antagonist on the other side and like, oh, I don't get the freebie, so he doesn't get the freebie. What if he says this conversation is stressing me out? You mind if I chew? Not not if you don't mind if I drink? Love it. Dad, they should have a amnesty day. Friday is is chew and alcohol day. Only when we talk about chewing and drinking. You know, chew and drink. Or she could take it up too and said, well, if you're gonna do it, I'll do it with you. We'll see how long he sustains himself. If it is true that he only chews like, what's the what's

what's he what's the occasion to chew twice a year? It's a boys day? Yeah. It's probably every time the cubs win. Yeah. I never here's the thing. It's unwelcome. Chewing tobacco seems like an everyday vice to me, where, like, people will be, like, get real worked up stressful wise, and you'll catch them smoking outside the hospital because one of their family members is in there or a real big trauma happened or whatever. Like, there's, like cigarettes could be, like, in an event driven thing and then gone. Or, like, they're at the bar drinking with somebody, but they buy a pack of smokers or something. Whatever. Like, it seems like cigarettes are way more event driven, but, like, chewing tobacco seems like either you do it or you don't do it. It just seems weird to be like, well, it's July. Don't buy me a can of chew. You know, it just Is it just doing one dip or is it one can? I assume it's a can. I mean, it's the price of cans to chew anymore. You gotta you gotta do the whole thing.

I don't know. That's just weird. I never thought of chewing tobacco as a as a as a event type thing opposed to you either do it or don't. Okay. Secular sense. Wait. Hold on. Dan, do you ever have any experience with tobacco? You tried to smoke or chew or anything? No. Never. Never. Nathaniel? I did the vape once. How did it go? I mean, it tasted like pineapples or something like that. I did You did it like a fruity vape. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think

when a friend of mine had some kids, like or when I had kids, we bought, like, $3 cigars

Yeah. And they were the worst. And so we were, like, puffed on them twice and then said, this is the worst. Yeah. And threw them away. Why would people do this? Yeah. What you tried chew, Mike? I may or may not have a chew.

Do you have chew right now? Do you do you do it every day? Is it an everyday item? No. Uh-uh. You like twice a No. More than twice a year. It's it's if they it's if I think I'm gonna have to be in long meetings or something that I that I'll just throw. Oh, you don't have time to go out and smoke, so you put one in the pouch? Yeah. Yeah. You gotta change your ways. Yeah. I know. I got some real problems. Yeah. I I've never done chew. I was afraid I didn't wouldn't know how to do it right, and it would taste bad. And they make the pouches anymore where you don't have to try to get the old like, because you used to have to pick out, like, a dip of it, and it was all snarly and a bunch of strands or whatever, and that would get all up in your teeth. But now they put it in, this easy to use pouch and then you Do you still gotta do the thing with your hand? No. That's totally for sure. Unnecessary. Oh. Yeah. Just like just like whacking the cigarettes? No. That that does do something.

I didn't see that coming. I'm sorry. I'm just saving that for later. Did it too soon. That felt good. Go ahead, Mike. What's the secular advice? Secular says, it may be time to revisit that deal you made with your husband. If he reneged, you are free to do as you wish. Yeah. See, you put yourself in the wrong position here, merrily. Yep. If these incidents involved his family, they have nothing to do with yours, and you should not be prevented from enjoying an alcoholic beverage at your family celebrations when you like. Yeah. I mean, here's the thing. Like I'm a little sensitive to it, and I don't mean, like, like physically sensitive. I mean, like, I don't like people that have been drinking. Like or and it's not even because they're acting rude or anything. Like, it's just they're different. It's because it's not them. Yeah. Like, feels like I'm talking to a different person. Like, some people are are more friendly when they've been drinking. Some people are, like, angry. And it I don't it doesn't matter to me which way it went. It just felt like whoever I'm interacting with isn't the person that I normally interact with. And so I'm like, a particular sense, I get real irritable around people who have been drinking. Now I just gotten better as the older I've gotten,

I think I just had a aversion to it. Like, growing up, like, it just being around people that have probably drunk too had too much in different situations. And so, like, I was just wary the whole thing. I think as I as I've grown up, it's not as bad. Casual drinking doesn't I don't have that same reaction. But, like, generally speaking, I I recognize where they're coming from. And and I guess, like yeah. I mean, if it was just a, hey. Do you have the right to drink? Well, you always did. The question is is are you willing to give it up in service of this person? And can you continue to have like, this is such a weird conversation, though, because you're gonna talk to, how often you can bring it up to your spouse to say, like, I really wanna drink.

For someone who doesn't drink at all, but I really want to. Mhmm. And this like, now that feel feels weird too. So unfortunately, you're in a bit of a rock in a hard place. Well, I'm I think it really depends on, like, are we talking like you just wanna have, an alcoholic beverage? Because that's legit, not really a big deal. Yeah. Now, if you're talking about getting tuned up and and and all starry eyed or whatever, that is a different conversation. Right? But, like, for for for I I assume the incident included someone who imbibed too much. That's how incidents generally happen. But, like, there's a a large amount of regular people that can have, like, one beer or two beers and, like, they're just still regular. Right? They're just talking regular. They're the same person. Right. They just drank a beer or whatever. You know? Right. And so, like, if that's what she wants to do, I mean, I don't see what probably The guy guy should probably lighten it up. Like, just because your uncle had a, you know, few shots of Woah Doodles. That's a combination of whiskey and Oodoodles in case you guys aren't around. Anyway, like, that's not a good enough alcoholic. This is woah. He's gonna he's you're not supposed to mix beer and hard liquor, so he wants the that's his compromise. You just got advised. Hey. Let's talk about the business. Yeah. Here we go. Last one. Dear life from the past. Several years ago Nope.

Oh, no more hype? I'm on a roll. Okay. Several years ago, my teenage nephew quotes Jim, gave my younger son his collection of trading cards. Oh, good. He'd outgrown the game, and my son was just starting to get interested. Before Jim gave them away, my brother suggested that some of the cards might be valuable and that Jim should check before giving them away. Instead, Jim decided to just hand them all over. Jim don't care about the monetary value. He's just handing them over to somebody else. Turns out that part of the collection is quite valuable and we could sell them for a significant sum. I'm inclined to do that and put the proceeds toward my son's college fund, which would really help us out. The question is, should I split it and send half to my nephew? Usually, a gift is the recipients to do with as they like, but Jim was just a kid with a kind heart when he made this gift, and he was thinking more about playing the game than about money. He's out of school now with no debt and is established in a job. What do you think? Is this hard to follow? No. I I I think just just leave it alone. I mean, gave it to you.

I mean, it'd be generous to to share, but you don't have to. You don't have to feel obligated if you want to. And I feel like you kinda got some meddling parents here that like, let's sell your cards to go in your college fund. I don't wanna do that. That sounds terrible. Yeah. I mean, a college fund, I mean, let's be honest, it's almost laughable. Like, what are gonna save a kid over over whatever eighteen years you got in your house? Would you get them $10? It'll last, like, a half a month. Yeah. You know what saying? Like, it's going out the door right now. That college fund didn't do them no good. Now you wanna sell what are these cards worth? I mean, I can't imagine what is it sounds like they're they're they got, like, Pokemon cards or something. Like, even the highest value Pokemon cards, what are they worth? Like, $5 at best? Nathaniel, you do Pokemon? I don't I don't do any of that. Nathaniel's leading his word on Pokemon. Hey, man. I I went to visit Nathaniel the other day, and he was still dealing pogs. He a bunch of pogs at his place. Don't even know what a pog is. Yokokawa. Okay. So anyway, I I I think these are these these are some I think the parents are weird here. That's what I think. I think trying to sell your kids role playing game cards for college fund money sounds super lame, and you used to, like sports cards?

Okay. I got an MJ, rookie. Oh, when he said he he was more interested in the in the game, that made you think that it's not yeah. Right. What talking nephew gave them to their younger son, like, hey. You're just learning to play magic gathering. Here's my set of magic gathering cards. Let's get this get you started. This will be fun. Turns out they're like a rare first edition. So now the the kid's a little bit older and the mom's got all starry out and whatever. Like, hey. We'll sell for big money and put in your college fund. That's lame. I keep it. Lame, mom. Yeah. That is kinda lame. I mean, I I might send him a nice thank you card, and, I'd ask him if we want them back. Hey, Turns out these are big money, and the kid kinda grew out the Magic Gathering cards. You want them back? I I we could totally get them back to you.

Or we're gonna sell them for college? And then then the baby goes, yeah. Sounds great. Boy, I'd be super mad at my mom if she tried to sell my Magic Gathering cards for college money. They didn't say that anything about Magic Gathering. That's definitely what it No. There's a well, I worked at this Walgreens, and there was this kid that would come in, and he would buy the The Gathering cards. And then he would come back, and he would return them, like, unopened. And I found out what he was doing because I asked him. He was taking them home, and he he had, like, a a food scale or a jewelry scale or something like that, and he would weigh the packs. And if they had one of the ones that was worth money, like, they're they had extra graphics on it, it would weigh more than a normal pack.

So he would keep those ones Genius. Because they they had some worth to them. Then he come and return the ones that were were not worth anything. That kid is our future. You know I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. He's what's gonna get America out of the hole there. And Well, I'm sure he he looked it up and on the Internet or whatever. And, you know, he's just it happened to be in a small rural town that nobody gave a dang about Magic the Gathering. Right. And so he so he would hit up the Walmart and the Walgreens and

and and I'm sure made some sort of profit off of it. That is pretty smart. I don't know whether I find that underhanded or not. No. No? Legit. He's within the boundaries. If you're gonna make the special cards wait a little bit more, you gotta know this type of thing's gonna happen. He's not opening the packages or anything. Doesn't it take all the fun out of it, though? Like, it's supposed to be like, oh, I got a special card, and this guy's he's gaming the system. He's after the greenbacks, man. He's not in there for joy. But when I was in junior high, I used to be a comic book guy. So I I I, you know, go get, you know, Fantastic Four. I have, like, a had a, like, a maybe the first or second edition of Ghost Rider, a bunch of stuff like that. Yeah. And little little box,

a little bigger than a shoebox, sized just full full of them. I had others from the past, but I'd saved for some reason this box for years. Years, years, years, and years. And as an adult, I'm looking at my garage one day. I'm thinking it's just full of junk. Like, it's just all this junk. Like, mean, it's just just stuff. And I had a buddy who was a

comic book collector, and he happened to be with me. I said, hey, man. Do want this box? And like like, this is gonna clean out my garage or something. You know, I thought this could be great. It's gonna really gonna load this. And and so I gave him this box of of comic books. It was probably a few years later I thought, what did I do? I mean, they probably had there had to be some valuable comics in there. Yeah. And so if he, like, made big dollars on it, I don't even wanna know. I don't want him to send me a card. I don't want him to say, hey, thanks. I just want you to know I funded my son's college. I'd be like, that's that's I gave it to him. That that's my that's on me. Yeah. You know? And if he hey. Be great. I hope I'm better than throwing them away. If if they were valuable, I don't want them to throw them away. Maybe you got some money out of it. I'll always pretend like I could have been a millionaire or something, but or a $5 error. So you think just sell the cards and put them in the fund and be done with it? Just or or do whatever. I mean, I don't what care you put in the fund, whatever, but buy a car or whatever. Until you get to college. They're gonna be worth more then. Right? Yeah. Maybe. There'll be more I don't That's what I thought about the Dogecoin. Time has And here I am. I got nothing with the e d Dogecoin is fake. Not like Magic the Gathering. I mean, yeah. I mean, you have a physical thing that you can hold on to though. Not like Ghost Rider, Mike. That's right. This is real. That's some money. Nathaniel says notional. You can't hold it.

Alright. Alright. What what was the oh, yeah. Did we do the secular advice? No. Secular advice is Jim doesn't need the money from the sale of those cards. You don't know that. But it could make a big difference to your son. Since you asked for my opinion, I would suggest you at least offer a portion of the money to old Jim. She call him old Jim? No. I threw that in the first place. Yeah. For a little sriracha. Alright. You've been listening to Life From The Path. Hey. Thanks for thanks for having us back. I act like you invited us here to the studio, and we we're glad to be here. Thanks for letting us spend our time in here. We do appreciate it. If you got any feedback for us on the show, give us a call or a text on the Life and the Path. Bob Eisler complaint line (515) 517-0085. That's (515) 517-0085. We'd love to hear from you. We look here. I'll tell you this. No one's texted in a month. I'm I'm lonely in here. I feel like you're not listening to the program. And so I wanna know what old testament scene you would wanna look at and stay out of the garden eating your perv. And then tell me

tell me whether you have any other feedback on the show. That's what I wanna know. In the meantime, be faithful in the means. God will handle the ends. You've been listening to Live From The Path.