Live from the Pathway Studios in Johnston proper. You are live from the path.

And you're listening to Live From The Path coming from the Pathway Studios here in Johnston Proper. It is wonderful for you to see me on this, balmy afternoon. Thank you. I appreciate that. Okay. Here's what we got going on the program. Hey. I'm gonna give you a real a real quick heads up. I was listening to some of the back episodes, and I'll be honest with you. Most of the time I listen to the back episodes, I'm like, yeah. That was pretty good. I must have listened to three episodes this week, and these were these were stinkers. Oh. These shows were not good. And I I and in fact, I was listening back to I don't it was a really old one. It had to do with there was an article we were talking about about, like, why women cheat.

And, Mike, it was you and me and Dan, and, I I I was not impressed. I'm not impressed with, how we put the show on. It sounded crappy, for one. Okay. That's my fault. I wasn't impressed how,

how we talked about it, the points that we brought up. I it wasn't funny. It wasn't particularly insightful. It was a stinker. Wow. It was a real stinker. Was this thing? Maybe maybe eight years old. Oh. Something like that. Well Anyway sounds about right. It was a real stink pot. Nathaniel involved in this? He was he was a wee Missouri. A wee baby. That's the problem. You should've been here in a second. Missing him. Yeah. Yeah. I was in Missouri. And then there was another show that we were doing, and we did a secular Solomon, and it was just it was same. It was just Mike and Dan and I. And, like, you can't run secular Solomon with the two dudes playing. No. That was a bad idea right at the crack. Yeah. Anyway, so I I I here's what I'm saying. There's at this point of

how many years worth of shows are we talking about? Thirteen years worth of shows, fourteen years worth of shows. Most of them are pretty good, and most of the ones that are older stand up. But just, if you hit a stinker, just give it the thumbs down and move on, and maybe hit me up on the, hit me on the complaint line. If I get at least three people on the complaint line who say on a particular show that that's a stinker, I will record a, a a buffer up the front that said, before you listen further Yeah. This one's been proven to be terrible. Yeah. It's a verified stinker.

We should Bring up the same topics. Yeah. Yeah. The thing's got a point. What if we just redid it and see if we could pull off a better or was the premise bad? Should we never have done that article in the first place? No. It was it was interesting. It was interesting enough article. The conversation, as is is probably normal, went on longer than it should've, and we said a lot of things that probably yeah. They're just more particularly insane. Was it mostly Dan, you think? No. No. It was across the board. Usually actually, you know what's funny? I'll listen to some of those back programs, and something'll come up, and then the thing will pop into my mind. It's like, oh, this is what I should have said. And then I'll say it, and I'll say, I've been wise for years. I feel pretty This is a platform for your Eric It feels really is so good. Vindicated by your own self, and it counts as a separate person because you forgot about it. I know. So, anyway, that's not a bad idea, though. As I've note these things down, we'll say, there's a there's a rescue rescue topic. We're gonna try to rescue this this show, this old show, by trying it fresh and see what happens. Okay. Okay. That's the goal. Alright. Here we go. Here's what got going on the show this evening. First of all, there was an article on the old Christian Post of why does nobody have any friends anymore? And it's weird that this stuck out was, this stuck out with me because,

I have heard this, that, like, people are struggling with friendships, especially as they get older, but even even, younger folk on, finding, making, keeping friends. And what does it mean to have a friend in this day and age? I don't wanna spend forever on this, but I I wanna touch upon it and see what happens. Okay?

Also, there's a couple topics that we were talking about before the show started here. We'll see how they shake One of them, I'm not quite even sure how to say it, but in my mind, or maybe in the social media lands, I keep finding what feels like,

I wanna say self help Jesus stuff, but it's not like, that's too broad. It is it feels like The spirituality seems like an afterthought. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, really, they they want to people who want to improve themselves, and then it is coded

with a an affirmation that God loves you and Sure. Yep. Which Jesus is the hashtag. Right. Right. But the things that you might otherwise kind of agree with Sure. Like, things that they're saying about God is true, but God is not the primary focus of the object. It's it's you and a like, Jesus is the or the like, the thing that you're gonna use to improve yourself.

I think in addition to that, where I've seen that in people consistently, it ebbs and flows just like a fad diet does, or just like a book that you read. Like, oh, here's the idea. Jesus thinks this, hashtag something or other. And then about four or five months later, there's some sort of like down feeling, and then you're revived by some like, new insight that you've had. And so there's a very hills and valleys type of relationship

with Jesus, or, like, use of biblical things that point to a mix of like self help and modern psychology. And without degrading the posit, like the right way to think about any one of those primary topics, the mix of them seems, I don't wanna say toxic, but like disorienting.

Yeah. And so I wanna see if you guys have seen that and then maybe like, why is this happening? And because I'm not sure it's particularly self, it's not intentionally self centered or self deceiving, but it I think it ultimately ends up being both of those things. I think it's ultimately a it's it's a misrepresentation of how good actually gets done. And, I think that it's coming from creators

or folks who haven't actually gone through the the good. Right? Because I think they're guessing. Right? I I think they're they're basically saying, this sounds like the new quick. It's the McDonald's. Right? It's the McDonald's of a of a relationship with Christ or a character building. And so, like, yeah, you're gonna be hungry in another two hours, and there's another one around the bin, and that's what keeps producing them. Yeah. It's the Bono. It's the, I still haven't found what I'm searching for, but every every three months, I'm gonna act like I did and try to and tell you,

and then after the thing dies three months later, I'm gonna give you another Yeah. I think I I I think I know the root problem of that, and so we can talk about that when we get there. Okay. The third one is around the the what is it this okay. This is gonna seem this is gonna seem really broad, but like, what does it mean to make disciples? I, if I went with the extremes, what is your, what is your involvement in helping other people become followers, disciples of Jesus? And I'm gonna give you what I think are probably two extremes. I think the answer's in the middle, but this is what we're negotiating between. The first one is is that

I am simply an information provider. To make disciples, I share good news. And then what you do with it is what you do with it. Like a guy with a sign. Yeah. Yeah. A pamphlet. Yeah. But even if that and maybe the investment is more. Maybe you meet someone two or three times a week. But, really, it's just information. You do you.

Here's what I know to be true. Here's what I believe is true, but you're it's not really a if there's a call to action, and if I think of it as most spiritually sounding terms, it goes, look, the spirit does that stuff. So I just provide information. And, if God wants you to make any changes, he'll do it. It's not really my job to prescribe that you take a particular action or another. It's not my job to hold you accountable to those things because your accountability is not to me. It's to Jesus. And so

I'm just I'm more just information. Mhmm. That's that's one side. That sounds kinda religious because we say, well, doesn't the spirit do the things? And then on the other extreme is the kinda hyper, we move you through the discipleship machine. And it's very strong, like accountability to another human.

There's like goals and steps, things that you need to do in X amount of time, or like an exercise, or how many chapters you read or all kinds of other things of which we're basically training you. Think of military style on what it looks like to, to follow Jesus. You don't know. And so we're getting you acclimated to a new life, following this person who is otherwise providing direction on your life. And we're giving you bootcamp kind of version of how to get there. So that's the extreme on the other side. And the question is, is that like, well, is there validity to one of those things? And if it's somewhere in the middle, how do we think about that? Because I do, I actually have heard people who I believe love and serve Jesus advocate either one of those far extremes,

and they both sound pretty religious to me, like, could be righteous, and so we'll talk about that. Then we'll do advice on Dear Life from the Path, then I think we'll cut you loose. Yeah. Okay. Alright. Terry in. Alright. We're gonna give you, we're gonna we're gonna just hit a minute on this friends. Comedian John Mulaney once joked that one of Jesus' greatest miracles was having 12 close friends in his thirties. Sadly, the modern decline of friendship is real and anything but a punchline. The Survey Center on American Life reports said in 1990 why? Why? We was this 30 years old? Oh, oh, oh, I get it. It's it's a background. Almost seventy percent of men had five or more close friends. By 2021, just forty percent reported having that many. How many do you need? Is five is five was that a pretty normal amount of, like, close friends? No. I don't think it's too many? That's high. That seems high for normal. Pretty high. Nathaniel, what do you think?

Sounds about right to me. You think it's about five seems good? Yeah. Okay. Good number. What do you what do you think when we say close friends? Like, here, dudes are hard because you can have a close friend that you don't talk to for two months, and it doesn't make them not close. Right. Yeah. Okay. I mean, I said the normal, but, I mean, Nathaniel, that's probably fair. I probably have five Yeah. Close friends that I would consider close friends. Yeah. Okay. Part of the challenge that time together is the oxygen of friendship.

Deprived of that and friendship tends to die or at least become more distant. And today, perhaps due to a faster pace of life and more stuff piled into our schedules, spending time with friends requires more effort and intentionality than in decades past. We talked about this a little bit last week. Like, part of the part of the discussion on last week's show had to do with, like, it's just difficult Mhmm. To get around people. I don't know. Again, I I could be wrong, fellas. Maybe you tell me, but, like, from a from my perspective, and I think maybe maybe men more than women, I I don't that oxygen can come in longer spades. Like, I don't like, I I think having time to spend with your friends Sure. Is a powerful thing. But but, again, I I don't decide I don't wouldn't say this person's not my friend unless I had not seen them or talked to them for, like, eighteen months to two years or something. Right. It'd have to be a pretty long time. Yeah. Like, my I I feel like my my best friend and I have have gotten to the point where, like, he's got he's got family. I've got family and stuff like that. So we we used to hang out. We used to live together. Like, we used to hang out all the time, and then life happened and changed. And so now we see each other once a month or two, every two months or so. Yeah. And we get together. We used to spend, like, a whole day together fifteen hours. Nowadays, it's, two or three maybe if we can if we can make it work.

And it's different, but, like, I don't feel like he's no longer my friend because of that. Yeah. Like, I feel like the the times are they are a changing. Right? But but I still consider him a close friend. I don't need I don't need to see him weekly for that to define that we are close. Yeah. Writing the Atlantic, Olga Kazan described this as a friendship paradox. A typical American, it seems, texts a bunch of people, we should get together before watching TikTok alone on the couch and then passing out. That is Americans have friends. We just never really see them. That's because we don't like, our society is moving away from the necessity of having them. Right? Like, I could have been friends with my my grocer,

the the guy down at the corner, my mailman. Right? Like, 10 different things of the guy at the post office. Mhmm. Yeah. You know, like, the the the gal who runs the coffee shop or whatever. Like, almost all these things we've removed for efficiency, a lot of the human element part of it. Mhmm. And even when there is a human element, it doesn't matter which human. And so, like, I would say historically, like, you had a necessity to have 10 close friends. Right? Because I used to need 10 close even even not not twenty five years ago, right, before the prevalence of the Internet, like, only one guy owned NFL sports package on DIRECTV. So everybody just went to that dude's house. Right? And so everybody's like, we're friends. We gotta keep our friends. And not like you're using the guy, but, like, your whole world was like that. Right? One guy owned, like, all the DEWALT tools that were necessary, and so when it was time to build a deck, you always called that guy. Right. Well, now everybody's kinda got their own. Everybody's has access to their own bit of entertainment no matter how niche it tends to be. Sure. And so, like, the necessity to have,

like, these these broad friends now your friends are more, like, literally based on what your likes are. Right? Not even your necessities. Because, like, I don't care who my postman is. Right? I don't even see the mailman half the time anymore. You know? Or, like, the guy that fixes my mower, he's probably not working Thursday. So I'll drop it off with Brad, and I'll get it back from Tom. Right. And I don't care. I don't know. Like, because that guy's gonna go move on to another job, and then it'll be a day of working there next year when the mower's gotta go in. So, like, all the things that were, like, long term and consistent, like and a lot of that has to do with careers too. Like, people change jobs way more often than they used to. It sounds like it's not connected, but it very much is connected. Right? Because, like, there's no consistency in the even the patterns that I would on a daily basis, even the the rare opportunities that I would have a a human interaction,

the odds of it being the same human aren't even high anymore because we don't They just got another job or moved or you know what I'm saying? And so, like, all of that stuff would which panders into a more individualistic mindset and goal setting, right, has produced the like, there's just no reason to have 10 close friends. Yeah. Dang. You know, that makes a that makes a lot of sense. Think about how people entertain themselves. Like, it used to be you you could go meet your friends. You're gonna go out to a movie, but, like, I don't know. Most people know at least one guy who's got a giant TV. Yeah. Or dude actually put a theater into his house. And so how likely is he gonna go, yeah. Let's go out to the theater. He's like, why don't you come to my place? I have a theater. And then some other dude in their friends' group is like, oh, well, I gotta, I I put this thing like, most people have the same video games. You don't have to go over to your friend's house to play it. Or, like, the like, those types of things,

like, got a got a fireplace out on the patio or horse You got a home gym. Right? You don't have to go to the gym. Right. Like, you used to meet dudes to go play basketball on Thursdays or you know what I'm saying? You're like, why? I can just work out at home. Well, actually, yeah, even then, it's like, how many people how many more families have a basketball hoop in their driveway when they didn't you know, like, you could you go okay. Go to Ankeny. Pick a random neighborhood that was built in the last twenty years, and I want you to just take one block and tell me what percentage of that block has a basketball hoop. It's like 70% of the so, like, you don't have to go down the street to Brandon's house. Brandon's gonna go, why don't you come over? And you're gonna go, no. Why don't you come over Like, you've because of all the personal, individual options we have to entertain ourselves,

you now have this proliferation of things of which you don't have to consolidate on the one friend or one family who's got the thing who could even pools. Even pool I know I know, like, multiple people who have pools. And your and your family dynamics work the same way. Right? Like, because you have you know, everybody has a screen available to them. No one's forced to sit through and watch whatever dumb movie Western your dad's watching. Right? Like, you used to just whatever dad was watching, whatever your mom was watching, you're like, well, it's either go clean my room or watch TV. I'll watch all my children. Sure. What's what you're watching, ma? Right. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, that's that's we don't that's not the same situation we're in. Right? And so so now kids are being raised in the same dynamic where, like, look. Just do you. Right? Like, do the thing that you wanna do and find a way to get it so it's you. And so, like, I I think it's a I the premise is is odd in a way that, like, everybody knows why this is the way it is. Right? Because we have so many individual options, and we and we always take them. Right? Like, why go why to go to a New Year's party? Right? Yeah. Maybe you could run-in some friends, but you could also text them and say, hey. Have a great New Year's. And then I don't have to drive home at 12:30 at night with a bunch of druncos on the road, and I'll just stay home in my comfies. And at 12:02, I'm in bed. Done. Night solved. You know? Instead of the hassle that it is to go out and hang out with people till one in the morning. That sounds like a drag. Yeah. Do you guys feel that so the three of you having kids. Right? Like, I that's that's the unique thing for me that I don't get or understand as a family man yet. But, like, do you feel as though you desire

to have those kind of, like, outside of your family unit unit friendships the same way that this kind of article is talking about, like, people would have? I I guess I I don't know I don't know how much time y'all have for friends. Like, I feel like you've got the relationship with your wife that you're you're always feeding into and and and putting time in. Right? And then the same with all of your kids individually trying to keep a relationship alive with all of them, then your relationship with Jesus, and that's important to spend, you know, like,

specific time with and all that stuff, and then your church community, and then, like, what the heck time do you have for friends? Yeah. The the church community friend thing blends for me. I it is important, and most of mine happens at the peripheries of day. It's gotta be in the morning. Like, largely in the morning. And then the like, the show obviously helps for like, I got a built in that I'm hanging out with friends in some fashion or another. I don't do I don't do I don't about you guys. I don't do a lot of the, I don't know, like, the nineteen sixties or fifties dude type of stuff. Like, hey. Me and the fellas are gonna go bowling. Right. I almost never do that. I don't know. We put together a lord of the rings marathon coming up. Like, that seems of, a friendy thing to do. Right. And I feel like we've all been friends for at least twenty years, and the first time we've ever done anything like that. Yeah. And I'd like, I I don't know. There's probably an over it's probably, it's it's hard because, like, there's a lot of dudes who take their responsibilities in the right mind Right. Like, simply don't have a lot of space for that.

But I do I actually do think it's important, but, like, a lot of it can happen without not in, like, con contesting the rest of your life. I don't have to go out to a a bar every other week and watch a football game or something to spend time with my friends. Like, there's other ways to do it. I'd rather have their family over. Like, so I get both. Right? My kids visit their kids. My wife visits their wife. I talk to the to the dude or whatever. Like, there's other ways to do it. So I don't know. Nathaniel, were you saying something? I used to bowl with a couple fellows from work. Oh, yeah. Like, every Tuesday. How'd it go? It was awesome. Yeah. It was, you know, friendship. But also Hashtag friends. Hashtag friends. I

sometimes I'd bring my kids with me. I'd say, kids, you're gonna bowl with these men that you've never met before. Yeah. And they said, yeah. That'd be alright. So and, like, I think fellas, it's okay to like, well, actually, Nathaniel and I talked, like, a month ago, but, like, I'm trying I need to get the tractor up and run at my place. This feels like a dude friend thing to go Sure. To go work on a tractor. Like, we're probably not gonna go play darts or something. We could. If you want you wanna play darts, buddy? Yeah. Okay. We're gonna play darts at some point. I suppose that's true. Mike works on my cars, and, like, we just hang out and catch up there. That that yes. Yes. So, like, if you take this is a perfect example. Right? Like, you take that, you know, twenty five years ago, and, like, that that's how that's how everybody makes friends, especially guys. Right? Like, we're doing something.

And, like, it's we're less geared towards that. Right? Like, I can YouTube most of my own stuff. Right? Like, I don't need to ask the guy that knows. I can just find someone on the Internet that will tell me, get the same information. No relationships happen. Mhmm. No funny story where a guy fell down carrying something he shouldn't or whatever or broke the screen you were trying to fix or whatever. Like, all that stuff kinda got lost when, like, the the I I don't wanna say it's all the Internet, but, like, it's just quick community. Right. Right? It's it's quick and shallow community where if I boil down my relationships with other people as if I just wanted the information from you, then that's what the Internet can provide me. Sure. And so, like, opposed to going through the struggle together, like, we can't get this bolt off. You get the torch. I'll get this big long pipe. Right? And, like, you instantly have a memory and a relationship and a thing happened. Right? But, like, if you're on your own, then you just look like an idiot, and you caught your thing on fire, and then no one was there to laugh at it. And so you didn't get a deep relationship there. And, like Yeah. It's just that times all of it. Times Right. Getting your coffee, times getting your mail, times, you know, like, there's no neighbor kid that wants to mow your lawn. And if he does, he's already got a business T shirt and a website at 17 or 14,

and you're like, whatever, dude. This should cost me $5. And you want 35 plus the an extra for the for the weed whacker. That's outrageous. Yeah. Right. I so, you know, it makes me think, though, like, what about the things we don't do anymore, which is, like, the lions club and the fraternal order of the eagles? Like, all these, dudes are all 80 who set these things up. Sure. These dude organizations where they got together, some kind of, like, faker ceremony type of things going on, but they did things for the community. Right. It implied that, like, even maybe it's because they were already doing all those other things, and they still had still had a balance of time because not everybody had the TV rolling. Nobody had the phone to kinda distract or entertain them. And, like, they're just the thing you were just saying earlier, like, made me if you were to go even

remove all our entertainment items, like, think of what it took to go to the store. Like, pre Walmart, you had to go to six different places Yeah. To go get your stuff. Yeah. For Amazon. Right? Amazon, of course, has made this way worse. Right. But, like, it took the like, you could spend, you know, six hours getting groceries or, like, going to the sewing shop and, like, doing all the random stuff that you're supposed to do. And so think of how much time I think I don't have in this extreme era of convenience.

Mhmm. And somehow my time is totally pinched, and yet, you know, pre pre Walmart, pre Amazon, people are going to the grocery store for although most ladies were staying home, I guess. Like, this is one of the differences. There's some flexibility in there. But, like, you know, there's some time to go do that, and then dudes are still doing order the buffalo. I here's the thing is I think the output of this conversation is actually gonna inform and make shed a lot of light on the next two because I think it's the same problem all the way around. Okay. Okay. Like, just real quick. So is there a solution? This person says, the first step will be to reaffirm that friendship is not just a nice thing worth having, like a luxury vehicle or eating out weekly. It is a critical part of human flourishing. CS Lewis called it the most spiritual of the natural loves, by which he meant that no biological law compels us to make friends. Instead, we make them because we're not mere animals. It says friendship is unnecessary,

like philosophy, like art, like the universe itself, for God did not need to create. It has no survival value. Rather, it is one of those things which give value to survival. I do think this right. I do think it's called, like, it just like, a place to be a version of yourself more so that you're where you're not bearing a responsibility. I I I'd there is just something about you putting the weight of all of being I don't wanna say on like you're putting on a performance, but,

like, the the it's just like, being around friends tends to be the place where, like, you are not, you're not having to otherwise hold up something. You can leave it and then be a little bit more at ease, and I think there is a significant value to that. Plus, to Mike's point, like, it's shared it's where shared experiences like, what are you guys gonna talk about when you're 60 if you didn't do anything together when you were 40? You don't have any you don't have anything to talk about. Sure. Well, I sure wish we would've, you know, tore down that barn together or something. Like, what what are gonna do? So okay. Let's see. Blah blah blah suggested before. This this person also says, I've suggested before that providing chances for young people to meet potential spouses is a call the church should take seriously in today's connected but disconnected world. The same goes for friendships. Youth groups, Christian schools, co ops, bible studies, and Christian colleges should emphasize making lifelong friends as one of their purposes.

I actually couldn't disagree with this more. Yeah. I know. I don't agree with this at all. I think those things that's like saying it's on the auto body shop to help people make friends. Right. Like, you make friends because you share experiences. Yeah. The Bible's the Bible study and the Christian colleges and the Christian schools should do what Christian schools and colleges and bible studies are supposed to do. When people engage in those things Yep. They will make friends. It's acting like as if the church is a separate entity than the people going to it. Yeah. And that's a misstep. That's not correct. That's right. That's right. It's not an institutional problem. Correct. Like, what do people of Jesus do? Well, they make friends. They invite people into events Yeah. Right. Like shared spaces and times so that you can create moments like that. Yep. They get into relationships when everybody else gets out. Okay. They said the same goes for ordinary Christians. What a dumb way to put that. Like, here's the church, and then here's the ordinary

Christians. Okay. Who can open their homes to make it for the loss of, oh, third spaces. When you do, invite not just people from your church, but those with no practicing religion who are statistically speaking the loneliest members of society. That is actually one of the takeaways I had from that Hutchinson conference I was at, and I'm not quite sure what got me onto it, but I think I decided that once a month, I just wanted to make a big dinner, and I was just gonna plan. I was gonna do it so my wife didn't have to do it, and I was gonna make it, and then we'll just say, Look, if anybody wants to come over, you're free to come over. It could be nobody and it could be 20 people and I don't care. I made enough food for all the peoples because it was, it's been so difficult to schedule time with folks and try to find the time, but maybe

if it was there and it was open, someone would go, Oh, you know what? Actually, the food's there having a dinner tonight. Maybe we'll head over or something like that. As opposed to trying to hyper schedule a thing, why don't I just go, Look, It's a blessing day. It's open, and there's food available. If you can make it sweet, and then God will orchestrate all the other stuff that's going on, given that scheduling is such a difficult thing to accomplish. I did I did try it out, without inviting anybody, though. I tried I've made a turkey.

Here's the deal. I have no feel the dreams then? I did. I have no experience making for a lot of people. Like, I don't participate. Like, I'll make a thing for, like, a Thanksgiving. Sure. And it's it's a Cajun corn, and that's it. I'm very happy with it. I'm proud of it. That's all they make. And I said, no. I'm gonna make all the things. I made a turkey. One of the we had those do you remember telling on the show I had them two turkeys Uh-huh. At my house? I made the smaller one, seventeen pound turkey, and I'm I'm watching it and basting it and putting all this crap on it. And, like, I made a couple, made some made some potatoes and all kinds of stuff. And I just wanted a sense for, one, could I do it and not cause a bunch of stress at my house for everyone else that was there? Sure. And I rocked it, and it went great. The the turkey was dry, but turkeys are dry. Like, they're difficult. They're dry to dry things to do. They're no. These are what failures say No. Themselves. Listen here. Everybody produces a dry turkey. It tasted I mean, it wasn't it wasn't great, though. It tasted like a turkey taste, and you're like, I wish I was chicken. Wish I there were chicken here, or

someone had made a ham. Might do a ham. Anyway okay. Yeah. I I I like this I I like that part of the idea. Alright. We're gonna anything else, friends? No. That's it. Okay. I wish I could've tried that turkey. Ew. Sound dry. It was a little dry. It was alright, though. Okay. Here we go. So second question. The third was extremes of disciple making. Okay. The second had to do with

Self help Jesus. Christo psychology. Self help Jesus. Why why is this happening? Why why do we get people who, like and and I don't wanna say, like, claim to follow Jesus in quotes. I'm just gonna presume that they love Jesus. Mhmm. But their expression of it represents

this very a self help ish focus on you using the words that Jesus like, things that might be true about, yes, God does love you totally, but they all seem to be very focused on the empowerment of the self, and then secondly, they tend to come in waves. It seems like you get onto this idea, and you encourage a bunch of people in it, here's my revelation,

And then somehow, whatever this revelation is, it is a it is a fad. It's a girlfriend that you dropped and then found another one, like, three or four months later, and now you're on to something new. And it just seems to be a very bouncy in the waves type of thing. I mean, is this not indicative of the the building house on sand situation? Like, I feel like people are taking the words Yep. And are taking the outcomes that they would hope for in their life, whether it's prosperity, whether it's comfort, or whatever you want to look at, and then they go, Okay, I have an idea of how to do this. I'm gonna go ahead and build this up, put some walls up, put a roof on the top, and I'm gonna live in this place. And then the second that anything breaks that thought process, that they are there to be comforted or to be prosperous in all this different stuff. The world comes and shakes it, and it just breaks back down. Okay.

It just I just flat out feels that way every time I see something like this. So the two biblical images are a house built on sand, and James is, like, tossing tossing on the waves. Yeah. But it's not it's not necessarily people because I I brought the James example. Maybe I don't see people going, look. I I believe and disbelieve. It's not that. It's just like that, like, people feel like they're not landing on the right theme of following Jesus that otherwise brings them the success that they expected or the outcome they expected. Yeah. I I think that's tied to two things. I think for one,

it is expectations, right, that your ways are his ways. So, like, you set an expectation of what you think God is going to do or how God would work through you or how you could work for God. That's probably happens a lot. Right? And then you have it in your head that, like, this must be the ends, and so I will figure the means out and, like and this is how I get the means. Sure. You know? But a lot of it has to do with tie it has to do with timing. Right? Like, a house on sand goes up quick. You don't have to let a foundation cure before you can build on it. This is a poor analogy anymore because construction practices are not what they used to be. But, like, they'll they'll pour a slab and have a house on it next week. But, like,

it's it takes no amount of time. It's slow because what you want is instant results. Right? Sure. Yeah. But, like, it's very much like a crash diet or workout program where, basically, like, the way you get gains

is slow stretching and building over time. Yeah. That's how it happens. Right? And so, like, our current social economy does just has no time for this. Right? And so you're like, god, just tell me where it is you want me to go, or I'll think of a thing, and I'll go there, and then I'll work my way there. And we'll get this flash tent set up real fast in the sand ready for action. And so it doesn't take long for the tent to get knocked down. You didn't do any stretching in the meantime because you sat in the tent just as you are, stopped working out, stopped lifting, stopped putting any work into it at all, stopped pursuing God in a way. Right? And then your tent fell over, and then you need a new thing. Right. You need a new bit of motivation or a a new scriptural even if it's not scriptural thought, it's almost an empowerment of you. Mhmm. Right? You're like, you just you just be happy with you or figure out a way. Let God renew you in a way so you are happy with you. The problem is is, like, that's not at all like the thing that God is offering you. He's not trying to get you to be happy with you. Right? He's trying to get you to join him and the things that he's doing. Right? And then it deepens the relationship with him, and then you see rightfully who you are. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so, like,

all of it is is a quick shortcut to the the to the labor, and labor sounds wrong, but, like, it is kind of that. Right? Like, it is a when when god is is growing you, it's a it's a stretch. Right? It's not an instant gain. It's a stretch. He's gotta take it a little bit this far, and then he's gotta go, okay. Follow me just a little bit more. Right? And so it stretches over time, and then you find yourself being able to touch your toes where you couldn't get your knees before. Right? But, like, it's a time it's always a timing thing, and, like, I don't know if it's a like, I struggle with this horribly. Right? Like like, waiting on God's timing for something is brutal because you'll go day after day after day, and you're like, what makes this day any better than the day before? I don't understand. And God's like, I know, son. I know you don't understand. Right. Yes. That's why you're not in charge of anything. Uh-huh. You know? And so, like, I think it comes to a to a timing thing, which then if you have to wait for God to stretch you in a way or if you have to keep lifting weights for two years before you got solid gains, right, then it's only then you look back at the two years and go, okay. The growth makes sense now. Right? But when you go the instant steroid route or, like, pound four chickens in a day, you're like, I get all my proteins in, And then and then you didn't actually do anything with it.

Then all that work that you all the quick gains that you thought you were got actually didn't turn out to be gain at all. It just seemed to be a waste of your time. And your stomach hurts. And your stomach hurts from pounding four chickens. And your stomach hurts. It like I just I I go as I'm as I'm listening to this and thinking about it, I just think, like, whenever I've seen this, it seems like they are asking for all of the the the moral and self help and and great ways to to make life look right right this second so that I can get to a place where I'm no longer unsafe. And, like, I'm no longer in a bad situation. I'm no longer unsafe in my own brain. I I no longer hate this. I no longer do this, all these different things. And and in my head, I went to, like, well, he's the god of all comfort. So, like, he should I should feel comfortable in these situations, and god is comfort to me. But, like, not to the point where god takes you from a situation where you no longer need him. Mhmm. Like, God doesn't lead you through the bad times so that you can get to a place where you no longer need him. He asks you to, like, follow him every day and come to him for that daily bread. Come to him for that comfort of the day. It is a long walk. It is it is work, and it is not just

a spiritual conversation that allows me to get to being a better human down the line. Like, that's that's just not it doesn't seem like that's god's desire is for you to be a better, like, human version of yourself That's right. Without him. Yeah. Maybe the biggest the thing it runs up against from a scriptural perspective is Paul talking about the building of perseverance,

like endurance. Like, there was an example we were talking about before the show started, talking about, Hey, man. You shouldn't quit hanging out in that job that,

I don't know, attacks your mind or drains your mind or your friends who are not encouraging you into growth. It very much feels like it's one of the key risks that I think we run-in general, which is,

I think to Mike's point, and I think a mix of yours too, Bu is this expectation of what God is going to do in our lives and that we sacrifice

We're gonna make our way to those ends, and then we're gonna keep chasing different means to try to get there, and we won't know we're there until the ends have actually happened. When the problem was that we prescribed ends that we should not have prescribed. I get that this is difficult at times because it seems to promote a stagnation,

but the reason we talk about being faithful in the means sometimes means that you're Onesimus. It sometimes means that you're gonna work a job that you don't love and that causes you is like you you don't come home feeling at ease all the time. There's difficult people there. There are difficult situations there, but you're doing them because the work needs to get done, and this is the means of which you provide for your family. And so it's something even beyond yourself. You are persevering and it is building structure and character, and you will not build those things without actually having gone through those things. It always reminds me, I don't know. This stuck out to me the very first time I heard it, and, like, it feels like the example comes up multiple like, all the time. There's there's a Benfolds song,

not Benfolds vibe. It's Benfolds. And he tell and one of the lyric is, they reminisce about the last ten years before the last ten before the last ten years have passed. There is no there's no like, you didn't earn the reminiscing.

It hasn't even completed yet. You you didn't actually walk through the thing that would make the reminiscing make oh, that's a fond memory. It's not even a memory. It just happened, like, back there. It act it acts like my, like my nine year old who will go, hey. Hey. Did you see that, so and so dropped a carrot in the kitchen? I'm like, yeah. It happened thirty seconds ago, and we were all there. So, like, the the like, if I I look at the Instagram, like, what's got a lot of my youth group kids on it. Right? And they're like, post a picture from August. I'm like, it was literally two months ago. They're like, yeah. That was great. Remember

August? August. Right. August was so good. So, like so think about that, though, is that, like, we are we are grab what you were extracting from the past or even our current circumstances is an attempt to to, like, grab ahold and benefit from the lesson that we didn't actually learn. Mhmm. We didn't walk through and gain. And it is like a fad diet. It is like going on and taking all these actions that go, look. It's a brand new me, and what are you? You're three days in

eating eggs in the morning. Like, it's not a brand new you. And so I've I've done this. There was something I committed to three weeks ago, and I'm like, I'm gonna do this. And it was for someone else's benefit. I said, I'm gonna do this. And it was a really good idea. It made total sense. It was a service to them. And

I'm about two and a half weeks in. I'm like, this thing still? Like but here's the thing. The thing I committed to was for a year,

and so I am not even close to having paid off on this. But the real value to this person is not the fact that I thought of it. It's not the fact that I did it for two and a half weeks. Sure. The value to them is the thing is real tangible personal value if I do this thing for a year, and only then the was the value actually created. But we are finding ourselves to be satisfied on the, like, I thought of a really good thing and then did not do it. I

or prescribing to say, God has this for me, and then or God gave me a word, and so I'm gonna share it with you, and you need to leave that job, and you need to get away from these types of friends. If someone is not pulling you up, then they're pulling you down. I'm like, what is this? What are these I tell you the thing. Here's how you know where this is happening. You need to if you're having trouble if you're like, I don't have any friends who are doing this. Here's here's what I want you do. I want you to read a post, and I want you to forget that you know this person and that you want to be encouraging and helpful to them. I want you to read it and go, what in the flying kangaroo does that mean? If there are no tangible objects in this thing, if this is all wisps and feelings and if there's no physical objects described at all in this type of thing,

then this is what's going on here, because it can't be measured. I don't mean everything has to be hyper measured. What I mean is that it's not an action. It's not something you can accomplish. It's it tends feelings are gonna be fleeting, and your sense of motivation is gonna feel different. And here's what's gonna happen. You're gonna do it two or three times, and then about nine months later, you're gonna get on to the old Facebook or the Instagram, and you're gonna do need to be candid with all of you.

Some of my posts, I just feel down, and I'm I'm putting on a show. I would just I'm trying to encourage all of you and trying to encourage me in the process, but if I'm to be real, I feel real down and real low. And then that's then ever we all applaud and go, yeah. He's admitted to feeling down and low, and then a week later, I'm feeling so much better. I'm motivated. I feel great again. Blah blah blah. And then three, it's gonna it dives in all over again because you're chasing you're chasing an outcome that you shouldn't have prescribed. You're trying to

that needs to be earned, you're trying to just have. Like Yeah. I I and it was one of the I said it before the show. That metaphor is or I'm just watching the earned metaphor. Yeah. Right? Like, that's that's accurate to everything we've been talking about, not the not the pursuit of Jesus thing. Mhmm. Like, that gets a little bit convoluted, but just to straighten that out. Yeah, that's true. Is well, but even Paul, like, if we go back to Paul's thing, like, perseverance,

like, it is a Jesus thing. It's not a salvation thing, but it is a, like I like the persistence part of it. Like, that makes sense to me. Like, the the I think the earned thing. I was just trying to shy away from a little bit. Like, persistence is continuing

to steal a John Mark Comer phrase, like, continuing to be covered in the dust of Jesus. That's it. That's your job. Right? Like, if you need more faith, ask for it, but stay next to him. Right? If you're struggling with obedience, hand that over to him and stay and can and stay right behind him. Sure. Yeah. Right? Like, you're not earning it. He has it already. Right? And, like, you have to be in a space to accept it. Right? You have to be, like, towards him and and turning your face towards his ways, right, for you to even notice that he's imparting a thing on you. Yeah. You you know I'm saying? So but, like Yeah. Like, the the it's an old school religion misnomer, you know, where a lot you're earning things through daily bible reading or something. It was like, that's not the way we're we're trying to describe it, but it does fit in with the metaphor of, like, long term, like, growth and living healthy. Yes. You will have a healthier body at the end. You did earn that, you know, through persistence, but, like, God's

economy works just a hair different. Right? That goes to Buva's point, though. Yes. Is that, like, if you you won't notice it unless you go through it. So, like, God's not leading you to a place where you don't need him, but if you expose if you're in situations of which you expose the need, then you are built up by recognizing that he feels it. So this is perfect. Right? Because this goes right back to our first conversation about friends and shared experiences. Right? Like, this is how you get closer to God. When you go through experiences with him Yeah. Yeah. Then then you have a faith in him that you didn't have before. Like, when you go through an experience,

like, not by yourself to, like, earn his favor, but he says, we're gonna go through this together. And as you watch him do his god level things You trust him. Then your relationship gets different. And then you start doing that over a lifetime, and then you have a trust in God that you would never have had without walking through that experience. Yeah. Because he always asks you to do something. Right? He asks you to change the way you think or an attitude that you have or a thing that you're not willing to give him, or he might even ask you to move. Or know I'm saying? Like, he's always gonna say, look. I'm calling you to make an adjustment, and you do need to make it to be able to go with him where he's going. Yeah. I don't know. Nathaniel, does any of that resonate with, like, experiences you've had in your life? Yeah. A couple years back. I don't know if you guys remember this. I got, like, super into like, I was watching a bunch of, like, stoicism podcasts and stuff. Yeah. Remember this? Yeah. I got off on a, like, a real bender on it, and I was like, this is gonna be the best. I'm gonna be a a stoic and a Christian, and it's gonna be righteous, and I'm not gonna care about anything except for the Lord and stoicism. Stoicism. Stoicism. Stoicism.

I mean, it lasted, like, three months. I don't know. But, also, like, I was halfway doing it. Yeah. So not even, like, three months. Yeah. And it it's kinda like that where you're, like, in the pursuit of, like, wanting to be better. Yeah. Like, recognizing that I suck right now. What am I what am I gonna do to not,

like, in the future, suck? Yeah. And grasping onto things that I find on the Facebook or the Instagram or podcasts or reading books or even listening to some sermons. It's like, what am I gonna latch onto that's gonna make the next move in my life? Yeah. I don't know.

Although I would say that there have been parts of my life where I have the way someone talked about something opened up something for me where I caught it deeper. I don't know that I would say that over the last twenty years that I've heard anything where I'm like, That's new and it changes everything, and it totally flips anything for me. I think about things completely differently now. I think there's been a lot of deepening,

but not a lot of altering. It happens to me constantly. I'm altered. Really the same? Yeah. And is it like in a healthy way, do you feel like? No. I in, like, in, like, I'm a moron way. I'm just like Well, you I'm sorry. Go ahead. That sounds awesome. I'm gonna take it in deep, and I'm gonna drink it straight.

And then and then I hit the next thing that counteracts the last thing that I heard. Then you're then you're a pickle. Yeah. Not good. I would I would say that I'm I'm fairly often

just taken aback by something that I read in the Bible, And, like, not not by a sermon or not by, like, like, commentary a lot. It's just like something that I don't know if I read it wrong the first time or the second or third or the fourth time or if it really is the Holy Spirit that's, like, showing me a deeper understanding of something or opening something new to me that I may not have thought about, whether it's because I have context into something I've read in the New Testament, but now that I actually have a better understanding of what happened in the Old Testament that might have led to God revealing a level of his character this way or Jesus revealing a level of of the the relationship of of what our heart does versus just what our body like our actions do, right? But there's there's a lot of the times where I I read something in scripture, and I'm just like, what what a world this is now. Now that I understand that or now that that's been opened up to me and God showed me something that's just I mean, it's just joy and beauty that I did not understand before. And that may not be a you guys are missing out on things. It may be very telling of an immaturity that I've had in the past that is now maturing. Right? And and that would be telling of that situation. No. Yeah. That's closer to what I mean when I say when I deeper. Like, that's it didn't change something that I fundamentally believed. Mhmm. I understood it

broader or more impactful or more extensive, but it didn't flip. Like, that's that's what I meant. So I think some of that feels closer to what I said when I'm at deep. That's fair. I I think there's certainly there is definitely a lot of of deepening that I have. Yeah. There are some things, and I think it's it's less in this situation, it's less about a scripture that has been revealed to me differently or whatever you wanna look at it that, but something that is a truth that is from Christ that is breaking down a wall that my my mind has set up. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because, like, I've traumatic crap. Right? Like, where where I have very hard held beliefs that are usually self deprecating,

to be honest, and then I have to put them against the truth of God. Right? And then when I say the phrase truth beats drama is, like, my brain tells me something is true, and then Jesus shows up and is just like, but if you actually pay attention to my word and what I say, then that cannot possibly be true, and then it just breaks something for me in such a beautiful way. Yeah. You know, I was trying to think of an example that maybe would demonstrate what I mean, and we talked about this a few weeks back, and it had to do with like what feels like a very hyperemphasis on, like, the Old Testament law and

stuff like that, or or, like, the tendency for people, people who I know who followed Jesus for twenty years who are now like, you know, Shabbat Shalom, bro. Yep. I this the the thing that we're missing is the Sabbath. The thing that we're missing is the dietary restrictions and things like this. That's the kind of stuff where I'm like, no. Nope. I'm not I my core understanding of how the things work has not changed. Sure. I think there's a lot of value, deep things that start to inform how you understand. But

I like, I'm not on some kind of kick where I go, if I just baked 12 loaves of bread on a Sunday Right. There will be blessing in my house. Yeah. No. There is not, sir. You're not missing out on something like that. Sure. No. But I but the thing once again, like, it it shadows the right thing. The right thing is a pursuit of your relationship with God. Right? And so sometimes people get there in ways that I wouldn't get there. They're like, hey. I set apart every Saturday morning from 5AM to nine, and I sit in a tent and, like, I just sit here and think about it. Like, I'm like, I don't I don't know that god is calling everybody that. Nathaniel? Feast of booths? Haven't, but now that you're talking about this Saturday morning feast of booths, I might give it a run. Good. You stoic. But so so, like, some some people are gonna are gonna need help

and will go about a different way in in getting their mind right, like, look, or getting in a pursuit of God. Right? Like, there's there's ways that are are pretty standard. Right? Like, it's reading your Bible, spending time in prayer, and, like, these pretty straightforward stuff. And then some people just need a little bit more. You know? Like, they go on nature walks, they're like, I'm just reminded of God's completeness and his authority.

You know? And, like, that doesn't do rip for me. I hate going out on nature walks. Just really make me mad. But other people connect with God there, and, like, that's fine, you know, but it's not the fix for everybody. It's not like the the the Indiana Jones secret key that'll get you behind the finally cavern to move, and then all of sudden, God's glory is here. Right. You know? And so, like, it doesn't work like that. So, like, it's just like when we were talking about with with God's not, like, instantly trying to get you to comfort yourselves. He wants to give you comfort because he is comfort. Yeah. Right? Like, he wants to have you feel love because he is love. And so, like, all those things are in proximity to him. Right. And so, like, our the onus on us is to be close to him. And so, like, you can't reinvent

I I I think they're just getting caught on the periphery. You know? And so, like, they're they're they're like, we'll just we'll we'll spoon feed on the nature walks or, like or bacon the bread or, like, whatever wackadoo thing that you wanna pull out of Old Testament Israel and be like, if we never would've given up on the blah blah blah sacrifice, you know, or the wave offering, like, this dude's, like, out at the Shoney's just waving a half eaten prime rib or whatever. You know what saying? Like, yeah. This is what reminds me to get close to God. Like, will you stop that? Right? You know what I'm saying? Like, these are the people that killed Jesus, dude. Like Yeah. They missed the messiah when he came by, and you're like, we should get the wave offering back out. I don't like, this that's not doesn't even follow the biblical narrative. Yeah. But, like, at the end of the day, like, they're chasing for the quick and easy. If my relationship if my inadequacies as a son of the king could all be remedied by the wave offering, I would do it. Right. Right? Except for my inadequacies as the son of the king comes because I don't listen to the king. Right? Like, I cut my own trail. I look to the left or I look to the right, and the king's like, Michael. And I'm like, hold on, dad. Yep. I got sidetracked by this Shoney's wave offering. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, I think that's the thing. People just wanna feel like they are they are closer to God than

quickly. It's a it's and instead of going through the pain of letting yourself be stretched and adjusted and obedience bearing its fruit, where you stop, like, lusting after the thing that you used to or using the words that you used to or thinking about people the way that you've always thought about people, Like, that doesn't just instantly go away. Like, it's a thing God refines out of you.

Yeah. I think that refinement is a is a huge part of it. Like, there's it's a it's a process because you're you're deepening relationship with God, trusting in him, walking in life, going to him daily, all of these things. Like, we have we have we have so many stories, to to look back on of relationships with God that were daily. They were walking at all times, and they were long processes and God's timing, like you've said a couple times now of, like, anytime someone tried to to if they were told the story or something that they were supposed to do or even had,

generally a good thought about, like, hey. Humans should be treated differently than this or, you know, I don't like this injustice that I'm seeing or something like that. But if they didn't do it in God's timing and in his ways and being prepared by him and trusting him and walking in his ways, like you said, his ways are not our ways. Right? And, like, it's it's this perspective that, like, you are going to God for these kind of things to happen. It is a relationship that you're coming to him with. And, we we talk about the the perspective, like, the the Bible is not a personal love letter to you, and I believe that. I think it is a story of generations and thousands of peoples and millions even really. And, like it's a personal relationship with you that you're looking for with God. Like, he's personally, your

father, your god. He wants to be the god of Mike. He wants to be the god of Ben. And, like, you guys get steadfastness and holiness and godliness and all of those things by walking with him as all these people will. And it's not about the outcomes of peace or the outcomes of prosperity, the outcomes of happiness. It is about being fulfilled entirely, walking with the Lord and what that looks like for your life. Yeah. Yeah. So I so I think to round this one up, here's here's how in situations like that as opposed to chasing

whatever it is, vibe of the moment, the the one evaluation you can ask yourself is that, like, let's if you think things are not going the way they're supposed to, before you make any changes in the whole all the various things, levers you can pull in your life, I want you to only focus on changing things that you can point back to scripture Yeah. As being a thing that that is a faithfulness walking with God thing. Yeah. So it may be, for example, I don't see anything in scripture that goes, you gotta love your job. Right. I'm not opposed to you loving your job. I'm not opposed to you moving job to find something that you love, but if what you're chasing is what it feels like to walk peacefully with Jesus,

then do not change anything that otherwise you have not have an idea of what it means to walk faithfully with Jesus. Start with those. Start with the means before you start trying to flip the the dial on the ends. I the ends will show up. Got like, opportunities will come. The spirit spirit will, like, guide you in some of those things that feel more peripheral than that. But, like, if, a lot of even even the stuff that feels like self care, I'm just like, if it's not a like, make sure you don't have a faithfulness issue first. Are you being faithful in whatever you're in Mhmm. Before you start changing your environment. Alright? That's right. Sure. Because the because, like, what you're actually after are the fruits of the spirit. Right? The thing that you're actually chasing is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self control. These are all the things that you're after, and God knows

that that is his presence in you. And so, like, you gotta stop trying to get it for yourself. Right? Like, he is the he is the arbiter and purveyor of all those things. And so, like, if you stick close to him and pursue him, he knows you hate your job. He knows that. He's not a a distant god who is unaware. Right? But one of two things is true. Either he says, I know you don't like this job, son, but I need you there. Right. I got I'm I'm doing a thing. I need you to follow me. I'm with you. I'll go with you to this stupid job because, ultimately, his his his relationship with you is not daily. It's all the time. Right. It informs everything. Yep. It's a it's a every second, every millisecond relationship. We boil it down to daily because it's the best we can offer. You know? But, like, what he's looking for is, like, my relationship with you influences your all the time. Mhmm. And so, like, we're saying this part these these times are set apart specifically to commune Sure. With our father. Right? But, like, it's an all the time relationship. So, like, he's well aware your job sucks, or he's well aware that your family member is causing you x amount of pain. And either he's asking you to walk through it faithfully with you so he can accomplish his means, or you're not listening to him because he offered up moves to get out of it. Yeah. And one of those two things is true. Sure. And, like, some things he just allows, but the more that you walk through experiences with him, the more you you you stop caring. The more you go, you're allowing because you're allowing, and I know you're good. So, like, whatever. Allow. Yeah. But if I stick next to you, I know I will always be in your will and in your ways, and I will get to experience things through your eyes. And that is ultimately what you want because that's where the fruits of the spirit come from, and these are the things you actually want. Yeah. Alright. You're listening to Life From The Path. Thanks for hanging out with us so far today. If have any feedback for us, call up the, call or text the Bob Eisenhower Life From The Path complaint line. (515) 517-0085.

Again, call or text. We'd love to hear from you. What what did we get wrong? What did we get right? Is this this encouraging for you? And, if you have a particular person on your old, Facebook or Instagram feed and you say, I think they're talking about this guy, go ahead and forward the link to the old show. And, you don't have to act like that's why you're sending it to them. Be like, hey. Here's an interesting story about friends, and I thought of you, friend, and then just see what, you know, things happen, how they perfectly. Yeah. Okay. So the question we had on the table

was the extremes, does it mean to make disciples? We said our examples were, can it be expressed as a very I only give information type of situation? The spirit's job is to make all the things happen whenever the spirit wants it to happen, and so it's not really your job to establish accountability. It's not really your job to try to tell people they gotta do a particular thing. You're just providing information, and then the spirit will tingle it, make it happen.

On the other side is, is it wrong to say, Look, man, you don't even know what it looks like to follow Jesus, and so it's perfectly fine to run you through what is effectively a bootcamp. You're going read your Bible and someone's going to hold you accountable for it, and someone's going to be on you to help you acclimate to what it looks like to follow this king. Is there do you have any human responsibility in helping someone in that type of way, or does it all belong to the Holy Spirit? I I think that's think it all does belong to the Holy Spirit, but that doesn't discount you from helping in some kind of way. Right? Like, if God is continually using his people to do his things, like,

even look at Paul, he's like, follow me as I follow Christ. Right? So, like, I can say, well, this is what I do. Right? This is how often I'm reading my Bible or, you know, how I'm trying to get how big of a chunk I'm taking in, or these are the things that I'm praying for. Like, can I be praying for you for these kind of things? And so, like, I think there's there's nothing wrong with setting an example, right, as long as you're pursuing Christ. Right? Because the whole goal is to show people how to pursue a relationship with God. And so if that's our job, if we're supposed to be doing that, one, you better damn well be doing Yep. Right? If you're not doing it, then you're disqualified. You do you shouldn't talk to anybody. So, like, you need to be pursuing Christ. Doesn't mean you're perfect, all the things, blah blah blah. But, like, you better be pursuing him. And so if you're gonna do that and you're willing to

open your life up and say, this is how I'm pursuing Christ, so that way you say, hey. So I'm gonna study the Bible anyway. Do you wanna do a Bible study with me? Okay. That sounds great. Set some time apart. Right? Or like, hey. Can we share can we share some prayers together? Maybe I'll just I'll just text you or we can talk once a week or something, but like, these are things I'm praying for. How can I be praying for you? And they get to, like, reveal your relationship to God and how you interact with God through the way that you pray and the way that you take those things in. I think all those things are good. Where the onus on you stops is

their level of commitment to it, just like everything we talked about up to this point. Right? Like, if they like, you're not dragging them. Right? You don't own their pursuit of Christ. Like, you give them like, you're probably not even in their in their life unless the Holy Spirit kind of help make that happen. When God is starting to move in people's lives and he brings people in to surround them and show them, that tends to be the case. And so even if that's a large church community or just a one on one relationship, it it's not like you can be like, god, I caught you off guard with this one, but I found this one babbling about whatever having terrible woes, I mentioned your name, and they perked up a little bit. God's like, I know. That's why you were there. You know what I'm saying? And so, like, I it's weird because it it's it's Ben's right. It's definitely square in the middle, but it's a it's to me, it seems to be

a hard definition middle. Like, I don't like programs for that reason. I think it loses people. I also don't like you know, like, as a purveyor of information, they can get that from anywhere, and God doesn't do that. Like, he tends to do relational, you know, passing on of his, you know, of your faith in some way. Mhmm. And so, like, I I don't know if it but I think long term, it melds with our other two conversations is, like, it's a it's a stretch.

You know what I'm saying? Even people who've had, like, a fantastic interaction with God, and they're like, like like, I just I stopped I stopped I had a needle half in my arm, and I quit today, and I've never touched this stuff again. That's real true, but their circle of friends are still they're still surrounded by users. They're still paranoid at the government. They still feel like they they have a horrible time being a member of society because they're always used to being looked down upon and not valued. And, like, all those things are gonna be a stretch. That's gonna it's gonna have to god will work that out over time, and it doesn't I mean, you can watch Israel walk through it for most of their existence. They'll have a fantastic interaction with God, and then that faith holds for, like, two weeks. And then they're like, this this whatever wheat manna you've given me, it tastes like crap. I hate it. Know You what I'm saying? And they're instantly no longer God is good. And so, like, he just stretches over a long period of time. And so, like, teaching someone to be a disciple of Christ, I I think I like I like to go back to the way Paul does. He's like, just follow me as I follow Christ. That's the thing I'm doing.

And like, people will find their own way. People will be getting out like a candle and a highlighter and a journal every time they read the Bible. And I'm like, I don't none of that is necessary. I hate all that. I'm definitely not gonna do that. I might write crudely in my Bible. They're like, how could you write in your Bible? That's why I write in this journal. I'm like, I don't care what you Whatever. You know what I'm saying? Like, it doesn't have to be down to that, you know, or how often do you pray, or is it holy to pray at 05:30 in the morning? I think it actually is because it's quiet before the day has had a chance to interrupt it and cause a bunch of trouble. But, like, that's just me. Some people get their prayer on at 11:00 at night and have at it for a while. Some of that stuff seems to be like, look. This is how I do it. Whatever. Just do it. But as long as you're pursuing

a relationship with God, and you'll notice that by fruits. Mhmm. Right? When they come back and say, hey. I feel like God is pulling me in this way, or I was reading this, and this is hard to take in. Or you know what I'm saying? You're like, okay. This is great. But if you are, like, the only one bringing up any major points or being like, hey. I haven't heard anything from you, you know, to pray about this week. If if as a as a disciple of Christ, you can't come up with anything to pray about in a week, I I don't you're basically lacking the necessity in your head. It is not necessary for god to be involved in anything in the world that you're interacting with. That seems hard to take in. That can't be right. Yeah. Bubba? It's

you're I absolutely. I agree with everything you said. I the the perspective of follow me as I follow God, I think, is a really important one because, like, if we're meant to be imitators of Christ, right, we're meant to be, like, ambassadors for Christ, we're we're supposed to be doing this. The the biggest thing that I see is like, I'm supposed to love like him. Like, I'm supposed to love like him to the people that I run across and I meet, and and they should see his love by seeing the way that I love them. And sometimes that means that I'm harsh with them. Sometimes that means that I'm hospitable. Sometimes that means that I invite them into my home or I buy them a meal or I give them $20 when they were on the side of the road or whatever that looks like. Right? Sometimes that's teaching them. Sometimes that's sharing experiences that I've had that that says that, like, this is how my god has built his my trust in him is how he's worked out this way, and and it's it's just walking, and it's it's constantly trying to be a a light that is is a beacon for for god's love for the people that I'm walking around. Right? And so when when I think of that, I think of the interactions that I'm having. I I need to make certain that one,

I'm rooted. I'm rooted in who my father is. I'm rooted in my relationship with Christ, and I'm walking the world not fleeting in sin and not running away from this stuff. I'm I'm pursuing him in my active relationship with him because I can't do any of that stuff. I can't love correctly if I'm not walking with my father, and and I can't love on other people if if I'm not walking in that light. And so it it really comes down to to the the the perspective that says that, like, I need to have that that one on one connection with my father and then walk the earth and and be in the situations that he's put me in. And sometimes I feel like God tells me that I've gotta go to a certain place, and it's my job to be obedient to that. And sometimes God doesn't come to me and go, hey. Go to work today. But because my life is I work today, I'm at work, what do I do for him in that situation? Right? Like Ben said on multiple occasions before, I may not pray for God to to tell me whether or not I'm having Wheaties or Froot Loops this morning, but, like, if God wants me to do something, I'm gonna do it. And in the in the the absence of a direct order or something like that, that doesn't mean that I'm lost. It just means go live your life. Like, you're in a place. Go be a light.

Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Yeah. So the question, and I think maybe you guys maybe you hit it, maybe you didn't quite, is that how do I think about iron sharpens iron then

in a relation, in a situation where we're like, follow me as I follow Christ, that implies that like, oh, I invite you to do what I, and it's only up to you. Like, you follow me, but I'm showing you an example, but iron sharpens iron as most churches, like this shows up in a lot of pamphlets here is the implication is that there is a bit of a sharpening. There is Sure. I think the truth of the matter is is you don't meet near as much iron as you think.

I think that I think that's where that comes into play. Because the truth of the matter is, like, when you're discipling somebody, I don't know if they're iron. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're you're you're walking them to iron. You know what I'm saying? And, like, once in a while, they'll stick with it. Sure. And they'll and and then they're ironed. And then I think it is time to sharpen. And, like, we don't pull punches in this room No. Either on the radio show or off it. You know I'm saying? Like, I think we're in iron territory. I know all of you know your scriptures, and I know all of you have seen Christ move in your life. So, like, yeah, we're on iron time. Right. So I think that's fair. Yeah. But

that yeah. I the right out of the gate thing, right, like, that's tough. You know? No. That's totally fair. I don't think they're iron. And you better make sure you're iron. Right. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Something that's not iron hits iron. It's gonna be problematic. Yeah. I think, though, some like, as an example, when I was in college, I'd, you know, lost, like, 80 pounds one year and started going to the gym all the time. And then the next year, show up, and there's, like, a bunch of flabboes hanging out with me. Mhmm. They say, we wanna learn what you did. Yeah. And then so instead of like, I didn't, like, give them a program or, like, write down everything they should do or tell them you know, we just all started hanging out together. Mhmm. Like, we would eat meals at the same time, and we'd all eat the same bland turkey every day and the same spinach every day. Was Ben's?

It was Ben's bland turkey. Why are we talking about this to the point? We would all go to the gym together. It's community turkey. And, like, even though I had already, like, reached a goal of losing the the weight and getting cut and jacked, like, even though they were not necessarily iron yet, because I was eating with them, like, it it's it motivated me to

continue in what I was doing Sure. Because I wanted to be the example for them in that, discipleship esque process. Yeah. So so in the and maybe this combines a bit with the question on, iron sharpening iron is there's a lot of focus on accountability.

What role does that play? Is that not, apply pre iron? What are they being held accountable to, though, is my question in that situation. Like, if they're not walking with Christ, they don't look that way. The fruits of the spirit aren't there. They don't have that relationship. Like, I don't know what I'm holding them accountable to at that point. They're not gonna look like that, like, at all until they're walking, and and and that starts to happen. Right? Like, I've certainly been both not iron and iron in times of my life in this room. Right? Like, you guys dealt with me very long before I was ever iron that needed accountability, and it was allowing me to be in this room. Like, I would not have taken any accountability because I didn't care. I had no reason to be accountable. I didn't trust that God loved me. I didn't love myself. I wasn't trying to walk with him. I wasn't trying to have a relationship at all. I was pissed all the time and just trying to survive wrongfully, and I was trying to to to seek out comfort because I hated everything. And like the thing that helped me was being there was the love that you guys showed me until I was ready to be in this room to be sharpened,

like, to be to a place where I could take accountability, and I could start to have, a desire for a closer relationship with my father and to be called out for the sin that I was actively running to and always rebelling. But, like, in my in my pre iron days, if you will, the only thing that made me even keep keep keep keep coming back was love. I think I think iron asks for iron. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I feel like I think when you're at iron, then you're like, hey. I need I need help. I need help, and I need accountability to surround me. You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't I don't wanna fall off this path. I don't wanna go to the left or to the right. Can you boys help me? Can you get can you surround me in this thing? I think Yeah. Because your desires change. Because iron iron will ask for other iron to show up. You know what I'm saying? But, like, if you're not there, you just won't. You know? But I I can't say that I haven't offered that to people, but it hasn't ever produced results, honestly. Like, when when someone has asked for accountability, that has always gone Yeah. Better than when I've offered it. Can't drag a horse to water,

or can you? Depends on how how much iron you pump. What if you used two horses? Can I get a a couple horses to pull a horse? Yeah. No. Exactly. I mean, from the perspective of, like, iron if iron asks for iron. Right? Like, your desires change. When your desires are for godliness and are for the fruits of the spirit and are for for steadfastness and holiness and things like that, that is telling and indicative of sanctification in your heart that's changing what you want. You're no longer fighting for the pursuit of self or for the for the pursuit of of of gain just for its own sake. You're starting to understand that there are more important things than just your own self. There's something bigger, which is your relationship with your father. And then it turns from this perspective of like when I am actively pursuing that relationship with my father and I am iron seeking out iron to sharpen me, then I can flip my my my desires and my my daily activities and what I'm looking like because then I'm light. I'm salt. I want to be that for others because I know what it's like to be on both sides of that equation. I know what darkness feels like, so light is incredible. I know what brokenness feels like, so restoration is beautiful.

Like there and there's this switch. And I think that's what we we talked about at the beginning of this is that's the holy spirit. Like, I really believe that that that flip of desires of what you're seeking out, is a holy spirit move. Like, it's that change from my eyes are open, the scales have fallen, my ears are open, my heart has turned back to the Lord so that I can be healed. I'm ready to receive that redemption, that restoration, that sanctification, because that's the work of the Holy Spirit, at least from what I've seen and what I understand. And I'm totally fine being called out for that if I'm wrong, but that's just it just seems like that's that's the flip. The desires change when the spirit allows you to start seeing what you should be wanting. There was a there was a study I read last week about the church, and it said seventy percent of Christian men look at pornography.

Fifty percent of them says it's totally fine. They don't actually see a problem with it. How do I think about those 50% of men? Because the 20% on that, like the 20% off the top who are like, I know I shouldn't be doing this and I'm trying to work through it. Maybe they're asking for help.

Sure. 50% go, I don't even know if there's really a problem in here. Maybe this is totally fine. They don't sell like iron. They're probably not didn't feel like they're asking. I don't think they're Christians. I don't know how they made the I don't know how they you know I'm saying? Like, if the if the definition

of a Christian is what is the definition of a Christian? Maybe I maybe I'll watch it. Right? But, like, in my mind, it is a disciple of Jesus Christ, someone who's pursuing a relationship and and believes that God's ways are

over man's ways. Like a kingdom living person that says, Whatever God says is good is how I want to spend my eternities. Well, so but you run the risk. Like, there's plenty of people who would believe that that's the boat in, but they also affirm things in other people that does not match that. Does that make them not Christian? Yes. So the block there is Well, but they're interpreted They don't believe it's outside. The problem is they're going, I don't think this is outside of the bounds of what Jesus says is okay. I mean, what like, you've you've got that with alternative lifestyles, like, pervasive through the church. Like, I they don't it's not a question of, hey. Can I choose to do what I want? It's like, no. We actually think Jesus is fine with this. There's no possible way that you that you can come to that conclusion both through the work of the holy spirit and the scripture. Yeah. Right. Like, that's difficult for me to like, I understand that people will struggle, and I know that there there's always the flesh is is is broken and evil. Right? And, like, this the spirit is wanting and willing. If that's not true, I I I it's it's hard for me to, like and I think when when I think Christian, I think disciple. Right? Go make disciples. Right? Like, that's someone who follows a teacher, if I remember maybe somewhat correctly in the Greek or whatever that looks like. Right? Disciple is student, but it's pointing to Jesus. Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yes. I appreciate that. And so, like, someone that reads

and is being taught by Jesus, I don't know I don't know how they then go, well, this is perfectly fine when Jesus is literally, like, specifically talks about heart issues of what you are not supposed to take that isn't yours was never given. Pornography falls directly in line with that of that is a it is a beautiful thing that the Lord offered you that you are not to take. And even Jesus goes further than further than the original law that was set. Right? Like, it is you've been told this. I say even further. If you look at them with lust in your heart, he's saying that, like, even your heart needs to needs to be in line with this of not taking things that weren't meant for you and not treating that person the way that you should not be treating them because you need to look at them with my eyes, with my heart, with my love. Someone that is following Jesus, is a student of the the the the, excuse me, the rabbi in this situation, the teacher, I don't know how you look at that and go, well, that must be a lie, or I don't that's wrong. Or Student of Jesus, but they're kid let's say they're kindergartners.

You can you be a student of Jesus. But okay. Once again, it's it still follows under, like, you could tell them it's wrong. That's not iron. Right? That's just like, this is just true, and it's not an iron discussion. It is the truth is the Bible says, yeah. No. This is not available to you. So would the step too far to be, here's what you should do, you need to get some software on your phone, you need to add me as your accountability guy? Yeah. Here's the thing. It's like, truth of the matter is I don't think until you're gonna pursue a relationship with Christ with your with your life, I don't think you're gonna care, and I think you you will continue to lose. Here's the deal. A full full candid disclosure here. Hi. Christian in this situation.

And when I was not actively seeking God, I I played around with this and fooled around with it and pretended like it wasn't a problem and then would come with a fake confession all the time when I was ready to be shamed and all that different crap. But, like, when I was actively trying to pursue him and and become obedient to the to the being that I wanted to be that I felt like God was calling to me to be close to him. Right? Mhmm. I then had to go, fellas, I have software on my phone. That's right. And and I need you guys to do this, and I need you to call me out for it. And the the people in this room are literally the recipients of that software on my end that I'm what we're saying. Right? Like, we're not saying just because you are pursuing god, like, that the temptations of this world are gonna instantly go away. No. But, like, when you're pursuing God, you'll fight them back. You'll like, I recognize that as something that does does evil in my life, and I don't want it. And so I will add barriers, and I will find iron to sharpen me back. Right? But, like, without that, like, if you if you're under the belief that, like, whatever, sin is sin is whatever God says it is. Mhmm. And if you can't reckon with that, I I don't know that you're a Christian. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, God gets to define that, and he is law he is always right, and he is good because that's all he can be. He can't be anything but good. He can't be anything but perfectly loving. These these are his qualities. It's who he is. And so, like, if you can't get on board with that, then I don't know that you're actively following a god. You're basically painting it in in your image and following that. Right. And I think that at that point in time, iron sharpens iron could very well be, hey. We know that you are actively pursuing a relationship with Christ, but you're giving in to sin and to lies, and so I'm going to call out sin and lies. See, and, like, I think that's just truth. Right? Like Right. Yes. Yeah. I I'm I'm fairly comfortable the more this plays out that, like,

you follow me as I follow Christ. I can show you the examples of the way that I am pursuing Jesus. I think you need to pursue Jesus too. Yep. And then, like, if you don't, there's there's not much I can do. I can't scare you in it. Like, that's not how it works. I can't shame you in it. That's not how it works. Yeah. Right? And, like but but, like, when you're invited into a relationship with Christ and you take it, then you will find iron, and you will say, look. The holy spirit has made this very clear through the bible or through whatever Mhmm. That this needs to stop. Yep. And I need help. Yeah. Okay. You're listening to live from the path. Thanks for hanging out with us. I'd get live. I don't know. Maybe you have some thoughts on that. We'd love to hear from you. (515) 517-0085.

Call or text. Mike, I think I think you gotta get moving. You got time for one advice? We got time for one quick one. Okay. Here we go. Dear life from the past. Our friend, quotes Carrie, revealed to our close friend group that for the last few years, she has been having an affair with her best friend, Julia's husband. Oh, no. Oh, boy. Their kids are best friends, and they spend a lot of time together, even taking family vacations. We have told Carrie many times how this can affect the kids, which she acknowledges, but the affair continues. This dirty secret is becoming increasingly difficult to keep because we love Julia, but nobody wants to be the messenger. Should we tell Julia or wait until the it inevitably comes out? Yeah. I'd tell her right now.

Yeah. Right now. I'd tell her. We don't we don't make caveats for hiding sin. Yeah. Like, you're what are you protecting? Like, you're protecting that you don't want. If you're protecting, like, I don't wanna hurt everyone, that's one thing, but it sounds like you just don't wanna be the bearer of bad news by what you said. That's ridiculous. Be the bearer of bad news because it needs to come out. I yeah. I think people are under the impression that the damage is not done until the thing's known. The damage is already done. Yeah. The outcome is what you're missing. Yeah. Yeah. Right? And you're prolonging it. Yeah. Right. The damage is continually being done. Right. And it will it will get worse. It's an open wound that is keep being cut bigger and festering. Yeah. We can We might give a fair lady that let's say, hey. I'm gonna I'm gonna come forward with this information, but, you

know, you can come forward with it first. Yeah. You got a week. Yeah. You got a day. Yeah. You you have twenty four hours. Jack Bauer. And then if yeah. If if she doesn't Jack Bauer up, it's like, it's gotta come out. Yeah. I'm fine with that. Yeah. And I think I think we addressed this kinda before is that, like, we just don't in fact, this woman might got himself in trouble because he said he turned his wife over into the police. No problem. But it but it was in general, like, what kind of friend puts you in a position to have to hold your Right. Secrets that are damaging to the rest of the world? Like, they're not being a friend to you, and they're harming other people, including their and themselves, and you have no particular responsibility to protect that. And the most loving thing you can do is make them come to reckon with this. Yeah. Yep. They may not enjoy it, but it is It's love. It is the right thing. Okay. Mike, what do you got? Segler says, are you sure Julia knows nothing about the affair and hasn't chosen to ignore it? Julia has children who still live at home. If you spill the beans, what will it do to the intact lifestyle they presumably enjoy?

Jeez. I mean, don't say it in front of the kids. If you prefer not to hear anymore about Carrie's hijinks, tell her you don't want to know anymore, but I vote for keeping your mouth shut when it comes to making the revelations. I I flat out disagree. Yep. Yeah. I think that's terrible. The damage is already being done. Good. Like, either either if let's say Julia does know. Like, can you that's gotta feel like constant shame. Right. Constant shame and, like like, she's not prospering into that relationship at all. And you hiding the secret on behalf of the dude, you can say it's for the kids, but he's already putting time and effort away from his family into another woman. The kids are already getting shortchanged anyway. Right. Yeah. They don't get all of him. They don't get all of the mom anymore. Right. This is garbage. I don't point. Yeah. These honestly, like, this is a this line of thinking is super tough, especially from people coming out of addiction or a rough background. Like, they are scared to death to tell anybody anything, and they're like, don't rat me out. Though it's better don't get the police involved. Don't what whatever. Whatever thing happened, they're like, do not you can't turn me in. I'm like, if you did something wrong, I'll turn you in instantly. Yeah. Don't well, like, we don't keep any secrets here for any reason. And they're like, just they're blown away because it's a in their old communities, that's the thing. Yep. Right? It wasn't a faith in Christ. It wasn't a good god. It was nobody's gonna tell on you because ain't no one else wanna get in trouble around here. Right? Right? And so we're not gonna invite any law, order, or good, or light into a situation because then it it shines on everybody. Right. And so, like, it that's that's a tough fight for for folks coming out of that lifestyle. Yep. Yep. You're listening live from the Path. Thanks, so much for hanging out with us. Maybe you love the show so much, you would like to don some live from the Path apparel. Go to livefromthepath.org. Click that shop button, and, you can pick out some, war donkey coffee, some shirts,

mugs, other sundry items available. There may be some new Christmas items coming up. I'm not sure. Christmas donkey seems fun. Oh, I'll see what I can do. In the meantime, be faithful in the means. God will handle the ends. You've been listening to live from the path.