Caiaphas, the missing Ark, and the Pharisees' ends and means

Talk turns to Caiaphas after the crucifixion, the Roman general Pompey finding the Holy of Holies empty of the Ark, and the Pharisees. The hosts argue the leaders' ends-and-means failed them: even a defensible goal went wrong through illegal trials and backstabbing, and warn against caricaturing the Pharisees without seeing themselves in them.